I think there's a matter of perspective here as well. If you played Energy Melee through its changes, you're going to probably be a little more jaded about the set then if you picked it up recently and/or picked it up from time to time, not having directly experienced the decline as it happened.
I was annoyed with EM for a different reason ... it was my PvP build which worked amazingly well when PvP first came out. Now it's fairly worthless for PvP on the strength of the set itself.
I doubt however that someone picking up Energy Melee right now would have the same experience with it that you (dave_p) or other long time Energy Tankers would have (sort of a case of not missing what you never had).
As a set itself right at the moment it's not amazing, but it's not bad either. It offers good mitigation via stuns which also allows for interesting slotting as well as very good single target damage (better then Stone's or Fire's ST damage on a power by power basis incidentally ... at least according to Mids). The real problem with the set (in my mind) is the animation times of Whirling Hands, Total Focus and Energy Transfer. Most sets have one longish animation time and this one has three, making the attack chain a bit clunky and this might be where it loses out against other sets ... damage per chain per time (but on the flip side it's visually fun to watch).
Having said that I agree with dave_p in that when compared to other Tanker secondaries, it feels very underwhelming at times. The question here might be is it important to you as the player what the other sets are doing compared to you, or just what you are doing in general in the game?
I more or less mothballed my Fire/Energy tanker. (I moved her to Champion, actually, so I'd have a high level "tanker" there for Tanker Tuesdays. It was between that and deleting the character.)
Since Fire is so dependent on its self heal for survival, making the animations take three times as long to play is very specifically harmful to that combination. The stuns of EM do nothing to help fix Burn either.
First, she lost her primary; then she lost her secondary. There just wasn't enough left of the character to justify her occupying a slot on my main server. I respecced into Air Superiority so she could have a fast recharging attack that did moderate damage. Air Superiority helps Burn like nothing in EM does.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
well I personally like my now 28 Inv/EM...
for me at least, being a tank isn't about damage, its about pissing off the mobs so your team can go to work. If I feel ike doing damage that night, I play my Blasters or scrappers. If I feel like being more team suport oriented I play my controllers/defenders.
It fits my concept and I like the look of EMand the sound of it.
also SS is soooo everyone in their mother has it now
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I think there's a matter of perspective here as well. If you played Energy Melee through its changes, you're going to probably be a little more jaded about the set then if you picked it up recently and/or picked it up from time to time, not having directly experienced the decline as it happened.
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This is a very good point, and is compounded by the fact that I already lived through multiple Burn nerfs on the same toon prior to the EM nerf, which just added insult on injury. Still, I stand by my numbers that I posed way at the top--if you just look at the stats objectively and compare it to the other sets, I can't see how you can come to any conclusion other than EM needs a bit of help.
And again, to those of you do who not pay attention to the numbers, more power to you. Enjoy EM it its pink (not for long!) glory. 
BTW, the reason I keep returning to this topic isn't so much to convince anyone they should play or not play EM, but I've seen what we can accomplish w/Ice Melee & WM, getting some love from the devs. I'd dearly like something similar to EM which really got beat up rather badly by the nerf bat.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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1)is it still a good set?
2)What are the must have and the skippable powers?
3)Any slotting recommendations?
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1) You can take whirling hands if you want a pretty weak AoE, and hurl if you want some range, but neither are really spectacular.
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Hurl?
I think you're confusing EM/ with SS/. Unless im missing something here.
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Haha I have been playing my SS/fire brute too much before posting... yeah no hurl.
Other then that i still stand by my statements that EM is pretty boring nowdays.
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BTW, the reason I keep returning to this topic isn't so much to convince anyone they should play or not play EM, but I've seen what we can accomplish w/Ice Melee & WM, getting some love from the devs. I'd dearly like something similar to EM which really got beat up rather badly by the nerf bat.
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I can get behind that, but having gone through this process a few times already, keeping it to *just* numbers or *just* subjective feeling will not win the day.
The devs need to know that Energy is "unplayable" in its current form by an overwhelming mass majority. By "unplayable" I mean to say, not preferred to be played versus other secondaries.
Then the devs look at the numbers to see if the missing equation is there somewhere (a fault of the devs for just not playing one and seeing for themselves ... and by playing one I mean playing it straight through as your "main" so to speak).
Finally the changes needed/requested have to fit into their development schedule once the need/request has been established as necessary.
I don't have that big a beef with Energy, but I also don't continually play mine (either of them) so that might be a telling factor right there ... it doesn't garner enough interest (subjective to be sure).
In my mind there is one real fix for EM that is doable under the current mode of development and that would be to replace Total Focus and Energy Transfer's animations with shorter ones. However since Energy Melee exists elsewhere in the game other than just for Tankers, this change while seemingly easy, may present problems elsewhere.
As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find out that ET's animation was changed a while back due to Energy Stalkers having a great attack chain (the one shot rule not even applying to them since it was so easy to two shot someone) in PvP. I also wouldn't be surprised to find out that this change was made around the time the "toggle dropping" change was made for the same reason, but this is purely conjecture on my part.
In other words, Energy Melee might have gotten pegged because of its use with another AT and/or the PvP system changes that have been made. Not like CoH hasn't overtweaked issues before 
I think one of the big conspiracy theories back in the day was, ET's animation was lengthened to be ready to be ported for scrappers. At a base 200 DPA for tankers, it was already close to being broken, if not flat out. It's a bit lower w/Arcanatime (like 170 DPA), which we didn't know about back then, but still, scaling that up for scrappers, and then piling a crit on top would've just made it farcical. But instead of taking a sensible adjustment (say, merely *doubling* the animation time), they, as you say, overtweaked it.
At least, that's one of the theories I seem to recall. I haven't scaled the current EM to scrapper levels to see how it'd compare to something like MA, which is another ST set w/1 actually very good PBAoE, but I get the feeling it'd be low on the scrapper ladder too. No idea how EM stacks up redside, tho I have an EM/Elec brute (that I never play).
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
Hold on kiddo, when did this become a scrapper forum?. Are we judging Tanks on their ability to Out damage!?. Are you serious?. If its like that, I'll just grab my Spines/fire. Your playing a TANK. See thats why it was all broken till i9. Every tank was either a scrapper who wanted attention in a group (no offense to the vets)or some Burn spammer. Lets be honest here, its a good set (EM), it does the job, if you want to run down mobs fine, but don't make it sound like a scrapper set.
I could care less how many tanks you claim to have, we are discussing if EM is still decent, and it is. You know, it being a secondary and all. What else do you want?. Is this what its turned into? /fire tanks claiming they do "crazy damage"?, how many kids are playing this game? cause last time I looked, thats a shield symbol on the tank AT. Show some respect kiddo, address me correctly or don't bother.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
Please try to read properly the entire post in context. You'll notice I was talking about a particular rumor that was going around, just as a point of interest to Kruunch, not anything about why EM was or is currently unbalanced. I posed the EM scaling to scrapper idea as a purely intellectual exercise, one I hadn't even done. Instead of grasping at straws, perhaps you'd like to address what I actually directed at you?
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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Hold on kiddo, when did this become a scrapper forum?. Are we judging Tanks on their ability to Out damage!?. Are you serious?. If its like that, I'll just grab my Spines/fire. Your playing a TANK. See thats why it was all broken till i9. Every tank was either a scrapper who wanted attention in a group (no offense to the vets)or some Burn spammer. Lets be honest here, its a good set (EM), it does the job, if you want to run down mobs fine, but don't make it sound like a scrapper set.
I could care less how many tanks you claim to have, we are discussing if EM is still decent, and it is. You know, it being a secondary and all. What else do you want?. Is this what its turned into? /fire tanks claiming they do "crazy damage"?, how many kids are playing this game? cause last time I looked, thats a shield symbol on the tank AT. Show some respect kiddo, address me correctly or don't bother.
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You off your meds again Lac? 
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1)is it still a good set?
2)What are the must have and the skippable powers?
3)Any slotting recommendations?
[/ QUOTE ]
1) You can take whirling hands if you want a pretty weak AoE, and hurl if you want some range, but neither are really spectacular.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hurl?
I think you're confusing EM/ with SS/. Unless im missing something here.
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Haha I have been playing my SS/fire brute too much before posting... yeah no hurl.
Other then that i still stand by my statements that EM is pretty boring nowdays.
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I wouldn't worry, in another /EM thread I responded to, another poster mentioned how helpful EM's self-heal made the set.
This community's been around so long we're going senile.
They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
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BTW, the reason I keep returning to this topic isn't so much to convince anyone they should play or not play EM, but I've seen what we can accomplish w/Ice Melee & WM, getting some love from the devs. I'd dearly like something similar to EM which really got beat up rather badly by the nerf bat.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can get behind that, but having gone through this process a few times already, keeping it to *
The devs need to know that Energy is "unplayable" in its current form by an overwhelming mass majority. By "unplayablejust* numbers or *just* subjective feeling will not win the day." I mean to say, not preferred to be played versus other secondaries.
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This is me speaking for me only. When it comes to Tanker secondaries, I'd rather play everything else but EM. The only way I would play the set again if they made ET have its one second animation back, or buff WH's damage and radius.
I agree that having ET's old animation back would make me more interested in the set again as well.
Wouldn't mind seeing Total Focus get a new (faster) animation either.
Each set seems to have one long animation (SS = KO Blow, SM = Tremor, Fire = GFS, DM = Shadow Maul, etc ...) ... dunno how EM got stuck with 3.
You don't consider powers like hurl, hurl boulder, breath of fire, or combustion long animations, but whirling hands and ET are?
Forgot about Hurl/Boulder ... but the fact that they're ranged is kind of the offsetting factor there. Same for BoF (cone AOE no less).
I don't honestly remember Combustion's animation (been awhile).
I was really commenting on the normal attack chain (of course BoF usually counts for that whereas Hurl/Boulder usually is saved for those ranged situations ... at least with me).
I think part of the problem with the changes to EM is that people were used to doing gobs (relatively) of damage in a very quick animation for ET. It still does good damage (more than KO Blow, which I'm never going to complain about damagewise), you just have to wait a little longer. One second for ET was out of whack, but of course, people were used to it.
EM is also pretty solid for stunning... I'm able to stun minions and LTs with my attacks much more often than I am with War Mace (which is okay for WM, as it has some Knockup and Knockdown). Still, it's something that tends to get overlooked with EM, I've noticed.
I do like that Barrage does damage now (it felt like you were sneezing on your target before, for all the damage it did), but the extra recharge does throw you off from what you had before. Before, you could have a nearly seamless attack chain with just Barrage, Energy Punch, and Bone Smasher. Now, there are fairly large gaps, which can be frustrating always, but especially at lower levels. Once you start slotting for recharge and have more than 3 attacks, it's a lot better (and Barrage continues to have a use, I would say).
As for longer animations, I think people just need to adjust a bit... some people don't like them, but I learned a long time ago how to use the Shadow Maul animation, use all of Incinerate's damage ticks, etc.
So a lot of it is perception (according to my perception, heh). There is probably room to debate whether it does enough ST damage to outweigh its very lackluster AOE, however.
*added* Kruunch, Combustion has a fairly long animation, three seconds. Interestingly, Fire Sword Circle is only .33 seconds shorter, but it always feels a lot shorter than Combustion. At any rate, it does less damage than FSC and has a longer animation.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
[ QUOTE ]
*added* Kruunch, Combustion has a fairly long animation, three seconds. Interestingly, Fire Sword Circle is only .33 seconds shorter, but it always feels a lot shorter than Combustion. At any rate, it does less damage than FSC and has a longer animation.
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You know, I did list all the numbers right at the top of this discussion.
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Energy Melee Dam Act DPA
Barrage 58.7 1.33 37.06
Energy Punch 44.5 0.83 42.14
Bone Smasher 73 1.5 42.54
Whirling Hands 44.5 2.5 16.86
Energy Transfer 202.9 2.67 69.87
Total Focus 158.4 3.3 46.15
Fiery Melee Dam Act DPA
Scorch 48 1 40.40
Fire Sword 73 1.33 46.09
Combustion 57.8 3 18.24 <<<
Breath of Fire 74.7 2.67 25.72
FSC 83.6 2.67 28.79 <<<
Incinerate 111.2 1.67 60.17
Gr Fire Sword 144.1 2.33 57.46
Stone Melee Dam Act DPA
Stone Fist 44.49 0.83 42.13
Stone Mallet 73 1.61 39.50
Heavy Mallet 101.4 1.63 54.87
Hurl Boulder 73 2.5 27.65
Tremor 44.5 3.3 12.97
Seismic Smash 158.4 1.5 92.31
</pre><hr />
Note, even Combustion is better than WH. 
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
While most of the complaints come from the added animation time of Energy Transfer, I think there would be a lot less complaints if they boosted the damage of Whirling Hands.
Remember, the only thing that Energy Melee has is almost all Single Target damage. If you lose some of that, then what is the point of having it?
Dark melee seems single target, but it does have some Cones and AoEs that even though they are on a long recharge, they half of its attacks have utility.
And when you look at SS with only one AoE, its a pretty strong AoE which gets a boost with Rage.
So if they don't fix Energy Transfer, they do need to do something with Whirling hands. There could be other suggestions to improve ET, but for someone who used EM for my main for 3 years, I had to retire my FA/EM character.
Yeah, I don't think anyone would argue that EM is suddenly overpowered because Whirling Hands drew even with Combustion (or even went over it... halfway or all the way to FSC). I know my Fire tank wouldn't be jealous, as it could easily outdo my EM tank in a group.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I would think Shield/ might offer EM some help in the added AoE department. Honestly, it'd probably be the only way you'd get me to play EM again.
I know the nerfs totally destroyed my brute, for reasons similar to those stated about Fire/EM tanks.
Virtue:
Miserya - 50 EM/ELA Brute (Perma-shelved)
Adriana Rayne - 42 Katana/Dark Scrapper
Cyberpulse - 26 Super Strength/Willpower Brute
Steel Heart - 24 Invuln/Super Strength Tanker
Only thing that keeps me from playing EM: Stuns. I despise powers that stun. I hate having to follow guys around.
That, and I hate the colour pink. Can't explain why, but I actually hate the colour pink.
That said, I still have plans to play an /EM tanker at some point.
They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
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Only thing that keeps me from playing EM: Stuns. I despise powers that stun. I hate having to follow guys around.
That, and I hate the colour pink. Can't explain why, but I actually hate the colour pink.
That said, I still have plans to play an /EM tanker at some point.
[/ QUOTE ]
I actually have a really neat concept for an /EM tanker, but every time I think I might be able to handle it I log into my brute and run a team.
Corpse blasting galore and often everything but bosses are dead before your can even get a chain started.
...It's just not a lot of fun.
Virtue:
Miserya - 50 EM/ELA Brute (Perma-shelved)
Adriana Rayne - 42 Katana/Dark Scrapper
Cyberpulse - 26 Super Strength/Willpower Brute
Steel Heart - 24 Invuln/Super Strength Tanker
Get Barrage and Energy Punch 6 slotted with some recharge and you can skip Bone Smasher (esp if you have Sands of Mu)
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Only thing that keeps me from playing EM: Stuns. I despise powers that stun. I hate having to follow guys around.
That, and I hate the colour pink. Can't explain why, but I actually hate the colour pink.
That said, I still have plans to play an /EM tanker at some point.
[/ QUOTE ]
I16 will allow us to remove that pink color. Though I'm not sure what color would look better there, heh (good thing I have awhile to decide). Anyway, you shouldn't have to run after stunned targets very much. It's not like earlier days where they could stagger off at sprint speeds (and jump up a building). They can move some now, but very slowly. I rarely have to move after a stunned target, and if I do, it's a matter of tapping the forward key. Tanks have to move quite a bit anyway, so it's not a big deal.
Really, the reliable stuns are a nice plus for EM. It's quite nice for my Ice Tank, so he doesn't have to have his defenses constantly challenged.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I find my fire/em tank a blast to play.
I'm not a big fan of barrage, but it does work and does OK damage.
I happen to like the new animation on ET.
I love total focus.
I find the animation on energy punch to be a bit slower than the blaster equivalent.
Bonesmasher is very nice.
Whirling hands might be considered a 'weak' AOE but I love that 'slam dunk' animation.
The combo of Fire/Energy works for me...I haven't been able to tank Lord Recluse successfully yet...but I can tank just about anything else just dandy.