Disapointed with how players are using the MA?
By
adgramaine,
Posted on: 2009-06-04 09:17 in Mission Architect
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You play with strange farmers. The ones I know are already level 50.
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I meant PLers. Sorry for the mix-up.
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I play this game almost exclusively on existing level 50s, and I don't PL other people. I just enjoy running around and kicking [censored] as a way to relax and forget about real life for a while.
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And I can appreciate the 'relaxation' motivation for gameplay. One of my best friends plays Age of Empires II on the easiest setting, same map, every time. When I ask her why she doesn't increase the difficulty, she stares at me like I'm from Mars. I get it.
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Thanks, though, for projecting moronic value judgements on me. I'll be happy to return the favor.
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You're quite welcome, and you're quite welcome to return the favor. Sauce for the goose, after all...
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If you're going to insist on the value of your play style, at least show a trace of honesty.
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Value? Where did I claim there was any "value"? I claimed it was enjoyable. I don't give a damn what youfind "valuable" in the game, I'm not playing it for you.
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You have the unenviable position of standing in as a stalking-horse for every subliterate farmer/PLer who has graced these forums. You received a response largely because you were the most literate of them, and not because I was singling you out indivually. In general, both PLers and farmers have insisted, here and elsewhere, that theirs is a legitimate play style, and hence has "value," while at the same time denying that their...
...constant Broadcast announcements of the formation of farm teams...
...incessent spamming with PL and inf offers to the point that in-game e-mail has no value whatsoever...
...and general dumbing-down of the game...
should be of any interest to any other player, as though we all operated in little asocial bubbles where "do as you will" is the whole of the law. We don't, and PLers prove this when they spam me with offers to PL my characters. We have to get along with one another somehow. And aggressive farmers/PLers make that very difficult.
And as tit-for-tat is fair play, I frankly don't care what you give a damn about. I am voicing my view of PLers and farmers, just as you are responding to the OP. And I judge because I'm human. Enough said on that score.
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...constant Broadcast announcements of the formation of farm teams...
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Let me guess. Freedom? Virtue? I don't experience this problem. Of course, I am also hidden from search, because I find blind invites to team irritating. I use a network of global channels and global friends to find teams.
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...incessent spamming with PL and inf offers to the point that in-game e-mail has no value whatsoever...
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In-game email stopped having any value when they introduced global channels. I don't want spam any more than you do, but don't couch it in terms that suggest that there's some meaningful value that's being lost in the noise. There's not.
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...and general dumbing-down of the game...
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PLing does not directly contribute in any way to the dumbing down of the game. As long as the devs continue to enforce that PLing is not the primary way the playerbase reaches 50, continue to produce content like TFs and the occasional good story arc, people will continue to play those and strive to defeat new and tougher challenges. People who short cut to the "end" do nothing to that. What the devs have to look out for is that too many people find the game too easy, get bored and leave. At least that's the theory of why PL is bad.
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should be of any interest to any other player, as though we all operated in little asocial bubbles where "do as you will" is the whole of the law. We don't, and PLers prove this when they spam me with offers to PL my characters. We have to get along with one another somehow. And aggressive farmers/PLers make that very difficult.
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Look, I don't enjoy that stuff either, but don't claim that they're harming your ability to play the game. Show me where spam mails reduce your XP or your ability to enjoy a well written arc (Dev- or player- produced) and I'll buy it. Until then, even as someone who also dislikes these things, I write this off as hyperbole for the sake of winning points in the argument.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Agreed. And PLers can't miss the mission-entry advert that says "Mission Architect Tip: You can level 1-50 with Mission Architect," or words to that effect. It's a way of saying, "Skip the game content. PL, PL, PL."
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Contrary to some people's interpretation of that statement, I don't think it has anything to do with the devs promoting PLing or farming. Far from it. Many people like to see it that way, but if you look at it more logically, they are merely stating that the MA can be a means to get all the way to level 50, because the wide range of missions available in AE does cover every possible level range. The devs would be have to be stupid to promote something that they have clearly discouraged since MA went live. But, people tend to want to interpret things like that the way they want them to be, which is highly unlikely the way they were meant by the devs at all.
No AV/EBs Deal with The Devil's Pawn-207266 Slash DeMento and the Stolen Weapons-100045 Meet the Demon Spawn-151099 Feedback
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Agreed. And PLers can't miss the mission-entry advert that says "Mission Architect Tip: You can level 1-50 with Mission Architect," or words to that effect. It's a way of saying, "Skip the game content. PL, PL, PL."
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Contrary to some people's interpretation of that statement, I don't think it has anything to do with the devs promoting PLing or farming. Far from it. Many people like to see it that way, but if you look at it more logically, they are merely stating that the MA can be a means to get all the way to level 50, because the wide range of missions available in AE does cover every possible level range. The devs would be have to be stupid to promote something that they have clearly discouraged since MA went live. But, people tend to want to interpret things like that the way they want them to be, which is highly unlikely the way they were meant by the devs at all.
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Agreed.
Being able to level 1-50 in MA has nothing to do with PLing, which was listed as a no-no *before* MA went live. The devs did not promote PLing or exploiting; they expressing forbid it from day one.
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Being able to level 1-50 in MA has nothing to do with PLing, which was listed as a no-no *before* MA went live. The devs did not promote PLing or exploiting; they expressing forbid it from day one.
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While I agree that the "level to 50 in the MA" thing was never an endorsement of PLing, I'm interested in where they expressly forbade it before.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
It was pointed out during the i14 beta that the MA would be heaven for PLing and farming and all the devs said was "don't do it." They never fixed the known Comm Officers exploit before it went live either.
Personally, all I want to see is another option added to the lfg interface (looking for AE mission team.) That alone would cut down on the spam once the community learns how to use it.
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It was pointed out during the i14 beta that the MA would be heaven for PLing and farming and all the devs said was "don't do it." They never fixed the known Comm Officers exploit before it went live either.
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Yes, I'm well aware of what was said with regard to the MA. The post above specifically claims that PL was explicitly forbidden before Issue 14. That's what I'm asking for a reference on.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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However, from day one the devs have always been pitching their wares to the farmers, and by habit or whatever they included a ton of openings and incentives for farming. And not just farming but obvious exploits as well. (Exploiters are not the same as farmers, but the distinctions can blur.)
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Agreed. And PLers can't miss the mission-entry advert that says "Mission Architect Tip: You can level 1-50 with Mission Architect," or words to that effect. It's a way of saying, "Skip the game content. PL, PL, PL."
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In a way, yes. In that those who are prone to PLing will look for opportunities to do so. It's the way they see things.
For many people, a natural part of playing a game is the "meta-game" where you try to find advantages for yourself that might sometimes be considered exploits. It's logical to assume that if you CAN do a thing in the game, then it must be legitimate, but sometimes it's a matter of the players being more clever than the developers and when that happens the advantage gained is called an exploit. Players have to use their own judgment to try to assess what might happen when the devs finally discover and repair the exploit, and I think the most common assumption is that the right thing to do when you find an exploit is to milk the heck out of it before it gets nerfed. This tactic is reckoned as being "smart play," and not only do players enjoy the heaps of rewards they receive, but they enjoy having found an easier path to success. It's an ego boost, and they're just following the path of least resistance.
Part of the difficulty with the MA is that players in closed and open beta had found out how to take advantage of the new system and saw that the devs were not acting to fix the exploits. The MA was ripe for exploitation the moment it went live and players used the system in a "smart" manner for maximum rewards. It looked almost like the devs were giving permission for the MA to be used in that way. It was even discussed on the forums and no red names commented on it. So when we were some weeks into i14 and Posi made his announcement of penalties for exploiting MA, many players felt like they'd been treated unfairly.
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I think it's pretty clear that Paragon Studios is experiencing some sort of difficulty with internal leadership, responsibilities relating to quality, and some developers have a poor knowledge of the game they're working on. Something along those lines has got to be the explanation for what's been happening. The turbulence in the development team has created some turbulence for the players, but hopefully they'll get it all straightened out.
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I'm not as convinced it's any kind of internal strife (though it well might be), as the kind of isolation you hint at.
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Strife? I have no idea about that. But in any group of people there will be divergent points of view, different levels of knowledge, and difficulty in getting everyone in step. I think it's probably more of an issue of chaos and incoordination at the office as opposed to strife, but I'm just guessing.
I understand i15 has content that accidentally portrays a hero NPC as a villain, plus a boss that has 4x the HP of a giant monster, and other bugs that would normally be found by simple play-testing in-house that evidently isn't being done, so it sounds like the incoordination continues. 
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As for coming across players with level 50s and even level 50 epics who have no idea how to play ... they're just noobs.
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I have to take exception to this part. Broadbrushing all noobs as folks who want to buy (or PL) a 50 is a bit harsh.
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When I say "noob" I mean someone who is new to the game. Some might say "newb." Whether they're at level 1 or they PLed to 50 or MAed to 50 or bought a 50 or whatever, they're not experienced in the classic CoH game.
I've chatted with people new to the game who for some reason assumed that in order to have fun with it they needed to buy inf and levels from some dot.com company. When I explained that the game was really quite easy and they didn't need to do all that, they seemed surprised.
It's not like this game is hard - lol - or that getting to 50 gives you massive rewards over being at level 10. Personally, I prefer the low level game, and I'm often found running around with zero or expired enhancements. My game goals are typically: get temp travel powers, get costume slots, get aura, get TF Commander accolade. (My redside goals are similar.) If I have the option to do a mish that nets me a badge or a temp power, I normally take it. I rarely make any recipes before level 30. And I have fun, playing on all servers.
But that's my style of play and I understand different people play different ways and that's cool. 
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Agreed. And PLers can't miss the mission-entry advert that says "Mission Architect Tip: You can level 1-50 with Mission Architect," or words to that effect. It's a way of saying, "Skip the game content. PL, PL, PL."
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Contrary to some people's interpretation of that statement, I don't think it has anything to do with the devs promoting PLing or farming. Far from it. Many people like to see it that way, but if you look at it more logically, they are merely stating that the MA can be a means to get all the way to level 50, because the wide range of missions available in AE does cover every possible level range. The devs would be have to be stupid to promote something that they have clearly discouraged since MA went live. But, people tend to want to interpret things like that the way they want them to be, which is highly unlikely the way they were meant by the devs at all.
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Best post in the thread.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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...constant Broadcast announcements of the formation of farm teams...
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Let me guess. Freedom? Virtue? I don't experience this problem. Of course, I am also hidden from search, because I find blind invites to team irritating. I use a network of global channels and global friends to find teams.
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I have toons on all servers except Freedom, and I've noticed Broadcast channels clogged with team-formation announcements on all of them. Agreed, it's worse on Virtue, but it's present everywhere. With luck, AE will slow this volume down as more AE devotees use Local channels inside the building itself, rather than Broadcast. We'll see if that takes off, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
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...incessent spamming with PL and inf offers to the point that in-game e-mail has no value whatsoever...
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In-game email stopped having any value when they introduced global channels. I don't want spam any more than you do, but don't couch it in terms that suggest that there's some meaningful value that's being lost in the noise. There's not.
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Sorry, this is simply not true. When I play a good arc in MA, I like to send comments and compliments to the writer. Spammers have largely made this impossible as fewer and fewer people prune down their e-mail files anymore. Of the literally hundreds of junk e-mails I've deleted or reported in the months I've been playing this game, every single one of them with no exception has been from someone looking to PL my characters or sell me inf for money. These are PLers and Farmers, not Storytellers or RPers or Badgers or any other category.
Quite honestly, I have no real problem with someone who PLs or farms for his own sake, as a way of enjoying the game; we all play for our own reasons and in our own ways. In fact, unless I find myself on a team that suddenly morphs into a farm team (which has happened all too often), I rarely encounter these folks, just as I rarely encounter the heavy-RP "dream police." It is only when PLers and Farmers intrude into my own enjoyment of the game that I get upset, and I've noted those instances.
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Agreed. And PLers can't miss the mission-entry advert that says "Mission Architect Tip: You can level 1-50 with Mission Architect," or words to that effect. It's a way of saying, "Skip the game content. PL, PL, PL."
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Contrary to some people's interpretation of that statement, I don't think it has anything to do with the devs promoting PLing or farming. Far from it. Many people like to see it that way, but if you look at it more logically, they are merely stating that the MA can be a means to get all the way to level 50, because the wide range of missions available in AE does cover every possible level range. The devs would be have to be stupid to promote something that they have clearly discouraged since MA went live. But, people tend to want to interpret things like that the way they want them to be, which is highly unlikely the way they were meant by the devs at all.
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You're right. What the message is meant to say is that MA is an alternate method of leveling a character. This would be true if the mobs could be kept in line with those in the rest of the game. Unfortunately, because Farmers were finding exploits in Custom Critter, the devs made the MA mobs tougher. I hope this changes soon because until it does, MA is a little tough for the average lowbie.
We really need to be clear about the facts here.
MA critters were tougher that PvE critters from the beginning. They were given an overpowered ranged attack, but like the wolves, not having one was an oversight. That overpowered ranged attack has since been adjusted down.
The exploits were removed in response to their use in MA, but the mobs were not made tougher as a result of farming.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Sorry, this is simply not true. When I play a good arc in MA, I like to send comments and compliments to the writer.
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You send mail to people's globals?
Honest question: you realize that mail is not global, right? It goes to one character. I can edit my arcs on any character on that account. If you send a mail to one of my characters, I might not see it for weeks, and that's assuming that I even look at my mail when I switch to that character. Some of my old characters have mails that I've kept for posterity, so they have perpetual red "Email" labels.
I can't imagine not prefering global messages. I know I would vastly prefer to receive that.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Honest question: you realize that mail is not global, right? It goes to one character.
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Actually, no, I did not know that. Thanks for the info.
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Sorry, this is simply not true. When I play a good arc in MA, I like to send comments and compliments to the writer.
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You send mail to people's globals?
Honest question: you realize that mail is not global, right? It goes to one character. I can edit my arcs on any character on that account. If you send a mail to one of my characters, I might not see it for weeks, and that's assuming that I even look at my mail when I switch to that character. Some of my old characters have mails that I've kept for posterity, so they have perpetual red "Email" labels.
I can't imagine not prefering global messages. I know I would vastly prefer to receive that.
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MA arc feedback is sent via private message to the global name... it hasn't been part of the e-mail system since i14 Beta. The "Feedback via In-Game E-Mail" feature never hit the live servers. Initially, the arcs were listed by the character you posted the arc with. That was changed to being listed by global name in I14 Beta before it hit the live servers.
Ashes to ashes,
Pheonyx
The Cape Radio
"It's good to have friends. Wish I did." - Troy Hickman
Oh, I know. I've received plenty of it.
I had assumed that VP was saying he sent feedback via mail explicitly. I can see though that maybe he meant he thought the built-in feedback mechanism used the mail system. That never occured to me.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I've seen alot of feedback about the MA ranging from its amazing to its complete BS.
For me I believe that the MA is a good thing that has been trashed by the lazy masses.
I do not object to farms in the slightest. I do not blame all of the games troubles on the farmers. I blame it on those people who constantly spam lf ae team. However when you send a tell they are only interseted in an ae farm. It gets a little ridiculous when you join an SG and team with a group of 50's from that SG and not a single one of them has a vet badge. Not even the 3 month one. I have been trying to help this group learn how to play, however at times it does try my patience because if they had played up at least part of the way they might know how to play their toons.
I also find it a bit disgruntling from a writing point of view. I had a few arcs done that I thought were good. However I could never get any outside input (other than my friends who tried it and they might be biased as well) because almost no one seems to be doing the arcs.
One of my friends and myself actually made a really good task force like story arc. I thought it was a blast. I even went so far as to recruit a few teams to do his arc because I know he was a bit saddened by the fact no one was playing it. I was hoping that if a few people would play it word of mouth might spread. . . . but it hasnt.
They all rated his arc well, I even specificly told them not to blindly rated it but to rate it as they felt it deserved it recived all 4 and 5 stars. It currently sits at 4 stars or at least it did. If you wish to check it out its called For the love of Silver, I do not recall the ID though he may have taken it down by now I do not know.
I had hoped that this might get it the recognition it needs however it hasnt. Because I have noticed that many farm maps get rankings of 4 stars. I know one that has upwards of 600 votes and has a 4 star ranking. The guy didnt even bother to put in ANY kind of story. Yet it has a 4 star rating from hundreds of people.
This has actually made me do an experiment. I ripped off the idea of that particular farm, made some minor alterations put it up and ran a couple lowbies through it and told them the arc id. . . . . I started getting votes 
So my own arc that I had spent hours on writing and trying to come up with interesting things to do. The arc that I spend several thousand tickets on just so I could unlock everything. Is was sitting at 14 votes and a 4 star rating after being up for weeks. I have since pulled the arc down since I see no reason to beat my head against a brick wall.
The arc that I spent about 5 to 10 mins on after a single evening had 30 votes. . . . and a 4 star rating.
Come on people give credit where its due. I do not believe farms should be banned but rate them what they should be. A map full of nothing but minion only, Lt only or Boss only mobs with absolutely no story should not get a 4 star rating.
Thats all I really ask is people start voting for what the story is, not for if it levels you the fastest.
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MA is for story telling, forums are not. I give that sob storys 2 stars.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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MA is for story telling, forums are not. I give that sob storys 2 stars.
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Hedgehog wins the thread.
This is the best post I've seen on here so far.
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However, from day one the devs have always been pitching their wares to the farmers, and by habit or whatever they included a ton of openings and incentives for farming. And not just farming but obvious exploits as well. (Exploiters are not the same as farmers, but the distinctions can blur.)
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Agreed. And PLers can't miss the mission-entry advert that says "Mission Architect Tip: You can level 1-50 with Mission Architect," or words to that effect. It's a way of saying, "Skip the game content. PL, PL, PL."
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I think it's pretty clear that Paragon Studios is experiencing some sort of difficulty with internal leadership, responsibilities relating to quality, and some developers have a poor knowledge of the game they're working on. Something along those lines has got to be the explanation for what's been happening. The turbulence in the development team has created some turbulence for the players, but hopefully they'll get it all straightened out.
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I'm not as convinced it's any kind of internal strife (though it well might be), as the kind of isolation you hint at. For example, as a player with a wireless connection and close-to-minimum hardware, I would NEVER have place AE next door to WW in Atlas, the laggiest place in Paragon City to begin with. The loading times alone harken back to the days of dial-up, and I've begun to avoid Atlas altogether for that reason.
But I think the turbulence among players probably has less to do with the devs that with the players. When I'm in WW and hear the beep of a Tell, and I have to scroll past fourteen "lfaet" messages to find my lost tell, and then it's nothing more than "AE farm team, interested?", it kind of honks me off a bit.
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i15 is bringing a tagging feature intended to help guide players to content. That may aid story-oriented players in finding story-oriented content. But it seems some large percentage of players - maybe 70% (???) - are completely uninterested in story. So don't expect MA story content to be as popular as other forms of content (basically farming).
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I think you're right about this (and what you say afterwards). It bugs me, but not to the point of leaving the game.
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As for coming across players with level 50s and even level 50 epics who have no idea how to play ... they're just noobs.
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I have to take exception to this part. Broadbrushing all noobs as folks who want to buy (or PL) a 50 is a bit harsh. I've met noobs who are very much taken with the story content of the game itself, and I class myself among them. But you're right that there are those (please-make-them-rare) people who want to enter a game with a winning hand every time, rather like mail-ordering a win at chess without actually playing. Those people puzzle me, I'll admit.
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As for the disgruntlement about people liking your arcs, even among people looking for stories there is a HUGE range of preferences and expectations. All you can do is make arcs of the type that you like yourself, and hopefully other people who like the same thing will find your material.
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I completely agree with this. Don't expect your well-written arc to find a home among people who prefer to skip that whole "reading" thing (and yes, I know that's not what you're saying, but it's what I get from some of the mindless farm/PL missions I've found myself in.)
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The MA is new. I imagine that over time we might see better player organization in relation to the MA. For example, if farmers have already organized and selected Atlas as their venue of choice, then maybe the story-oriented lowbie players should gather in Galaxy, Steel, and KR. Mid-level story-oriented players can gather in Bricks, Talos, or RWZ. Top level story players can gather in FF, while the farming players gather in PI. It's not that hard to figure it out, and eventually we'll all be following the ant trails to the hangouts for players with our particular interests.
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These are great suggestions, and I hope others are taking note. I only wish so much of this wasn't falling on the shoulders of the players themselves. I've already decided to abandon Atlas from level 1 onward, and I hope others do as well, until the devs realize what a mess it's become. Here's a suggestion: Move the AE building farther away from Atlas Plaza and WW! Five-minute load times and constant mapserves are driving people to distraction.
Already, a number of topics have shown up on these forums catering to story-focused AE arcs, and I'd like to see more.
As for the OP's complaint that farms get higher ratings than stories, the answer might be more obvious than most suspect. To be blunt, if you can craft a single mish that gives a farmer 1500 tickets, he's going to feel pretty good about giving you 25 tickets in return. It's a no-brainer.