Disapointed with how players are using the MA?
By
adgramaine,
Posted on: 2009-06-04 09:17 in Mission Architect
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If you'll PM your arc id, I'll give it a go.
I believe most MA arc writers are running into the same problem. Based on some of the responses to the thread, you see why the devs don't appear to spend much time on making really good stories: most of the player base could care less. Just give them something to bash, and they're happy.
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I believe most MA arc writers are running into the same problem. Based on some of the responses to the thread, you see why the devs don't appear to spend much time on making really good stories: most of the player base could care less. Just give them something to bash, and they're happy.
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I think the devs are held to something of a higher standard because, well, they're responsible for the atmosphere of the entire game. Continuity, setting, progressing a sense of plot in the overall game has effects that bleeds down much further into the ranks of everyday players, even if their preferred way of playing is to run around smacking stuff without paying a lot of attention to the details.
I look at it like this. I like to watch action movies. If stuff blows up good, is fast paced, and has good eye candy, I can enjoy just about any action movie as escapist distraction. A lot of people are like me, and you can make enough money to get by on a pretty mediocre action flick because of it. Still, if I go see an action flick that has good acting and a solid plot (no major holes, makes you care about the heroes or hate the villain), I enjoy the movie a lot more. I'll be likely to remember it longer, and may want to own a copy when it comes out.
I don't think a lot of people are going into the MA looking for "The Godfather" or "Patton". Most of them are going in looking for "Under Siege" or "Die Hard".
If there's a problem here, it's that there's nothing really like the Oscars, that acknowledges achievement in quality arc making. In theory, that's stuff like the DC, but the Oscars don't have to choose between 100,000 movies released per year. Here, the judges can't even watch them all.
I think the tags in the future will help a lot. People can look for what they want to play (assuming people tag their arcs correctly). That may mean that arcs with fully fleshed-out stories and whatnot are easier to identify, so that the "judges" don't have to sift through as much stuff to find the artistic gems.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
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Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Yep.
Basically the players decide how they want to use the content.
If you are looking for validation of your stories . . . then submit them to a publisher in book or novel or short story format.
Coming here for it is just opening yourself up for disappointment. People have wildly different tastes.
Ex: There are some that love origin stories that show you how a character came to become a hero, and take the player along for the rid.
Personally I HATE those, as I believe the focus should always be on MY character.
Different strokes for different folks.
Interestingly enough this relates to the whole pvper vs pver and badger vs pver debates.
Each group cannot understand how the other can continue to do things that in there eyes aren't fun.
For instance I've heard some pvpers ask "how much pve can you do, seriously?"
And other groups have asked that of pvpers.
The reality is, what you find fun is NOT what someone else finds fun. When we as a playerbase at large finally get that, COx will probably shut down after its 20 year anniversary. 
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I am disappointed people keep telling me that I should only play there MA arcs because they spent so much time making up a story.
I have not read one scrap of the stories there is no draw for me there sorry if I want a story I will go read a book. I mean I have read hundreds of books and if I want a good story I freakin go read a book. When I log on to the game I want to beat up on stuff get my new shinny and move on that is fun to me.
Sorry your idea of a good arc does not even come into my realm of what I would rate as fun.
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Couldn't have said it better myself. So many people seems to think that their arc has such a good story that deserves to be played. So many people think that their creative juices are so abundent that it is almost like a crime for people to ignore it. Well I just have one question. If those people are so good at creating compelling and dramatic stories, why aren't they writing professionally whether it is novels or movie screenplays? I know the reason, it's because a lot of people out there tend to overrate their own work. It's a human condition. It's just the way it is.
Playing a computer game does not equal to reading a good book or even watching a good movie, not by a long shot. The next closest thing is when you play an good single player RPG which could takes years to develop a compelling storyline/plot. That in itself is drastically different than MMOs in terms plot depths and reader immersion. There is no way a story arc in a MMO that is cobbled together in a week can match that level of intensity. That's why I am not particularly impressed nor have the desire to experience "stories" in MMO. It's nothing I couldn't have thought up myself to put it bluntly.
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...many people simply click the 4 star option and move on...
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And... that's where a story comes in. If your story doesn't inspire me to send you feedback, any kind of feedback, you can assume I didn't feel much from your story. You see, stories are about causing some manner of change in the audience. Different people are moved/changed by different things. Some people appreciate the effectiveness crafted into a farming mission, some people despise that and appreciate story-telling instead.
The thing is, evaluating something and understanding what you like and dislike about it, and then putting that into a feedback comment, that process takes work, work which most of us do not want to do when we're playing a game!
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I have seen a few that were blatant farm maps that I gave a decent rating because the creator took a couple mins to flesh out an amusing story as to why you were killing the mobs.
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Then those "missions" are no better than some of those OTHER-game "quests" to go and kill 10 boars. In my book, those farm-arcs won't even get much if at all.
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So yes I will return to my original statement that I like the MA but am disappointed with player base.
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I'll one-up what you're saying: "I like people, I'm just generally disappointed with Mankind" 
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Also you said to put it up on the forums. That sounds like the kind of thing someone who was desperate for validation would do.
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I assume you mean that I said to put your story itself up on the forum. I don't recall saying such a thing, but I myself definitely put my story into some of the threads listed in the Forums. It's not that I seek validation, but I am definitely seeking passive promotion of my Arc. There's nothing wrong with that in my opinion, but were I to come and complain that my Arc isn't getting as many stars and ratings as I think it should, then I'd be exhibiting something that isn't very flattering in my opinion.
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...I do not need to deal with the forumites and lore hounds ripping apart a story because I might have got a bit of the timeline off by a month or so.
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Actually, that's half the fun for me, discussing our points of view and how our own personal opinions shape the ideas we have. Venture for example, dislikes Nemesis arcs, and Talen hates it when dumb SciFi is employed. I (and others) sometimes agree with them, and other times disagree. If you don't see this as nothing more than a discussion then you don't have to participate.
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Well I just have one question. If those people are so good at creating compelling and dramatic stories, why aren't they writing professionally whether it is novels or movie screenplays?
[/ QUOTE ]I've known plenty of considerly talented people who don't work professionally because, to them, it's just a hobby or creative outlet which takes a back seat to the rest of their life. Writing professionally enough to make a living is a tough gig to break into and, for some, they'd rather keep it a fun hobby rather than turn it into work.
I'm not speaking for myself -- I have no illusions that I'm exceptionally talented. But making the test "how come you're not a professional?" is just silly.
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I've known plenty of considerly talented people who don't work professionally because, to them, it's just a hobby or creative outlet which takes a back seat to the rest of their life. Writing professionally enough to make a living is a tough gig to break into and, for some, they'd rather keep it a fun hobby rather than turn it into work.
I'm not speaking for myself -- I have no illusions that I'm exceptionally talented. But making the test "how come you're not a professional?" is just silly.
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I come from an art background. I've been drawing and painting since I was 6 years old and I've taken countless art classes prior to college. I minored in Art history in college and I still continue my hobby to this day. I've also did my summer internship at an interior design firm during my college years.
I did not continue into that field out of college because I realized it is only a hobby to me. The art field(music, modern art, painting, sculpting, design) is very cutthroat with opportunities very limited to begin with. I wasn't serious enough about my hobby to try to turn it into a profession. Consequently, I do not hold any delusions as to just how much attention other people should pay to my work no matter how good I think it is. I don't need public acceptance to stroke my own ego because I am confident enough about it as it is. That's the real point behind the issue at hand. To turn a hobby into a profession takes serious committment (time and monetary) from a person. If someone is only doing it as a hobby and is not serious enough to commit to it professionally, why should they expect their audience to take it seriously in return? Why should they be offended if people overlook their work in favor of something else? Do they really have the right to complain? Frankly, they should be glad that people are looking at it in the first place.
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To turn a hobby into a profession takes serious committment (time and monetary) from a person. If someone is only doing it as a hobby and is not serious enough to commit to it professionally, why should they expect their audience to take it seriously in return?
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Not pursuing a creative endeavor professionally does not automatically mean it's not being taken seriously by the creator.
This isn't a new debate. O'Keeffe used to berate Adams for giving his work away. Kurt Vonnegut had a eye-opening dialogue with his sister about this sort of thing as well, which is related in one of his books. Then, of course, you have the attitude that illustration and commercial art isn't really art at all, and so on down through the ages.
Point is, creators are individuals. Individuals have different views on their creations, the process of creating, and what pursuing it seriously entails. I've known many creators, a good number of them professionals. It's interesting to note that more than a few have viewed their commercial products and their work-for-hire as the less serious end of what they do. They pump out pap to make money in order to finance the "more serious" work that wouldn't sell.
It's all a matter of perspective, which means that you can't put too much stock in the idea that "hobby" = "not serious".
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I think the whenever someone creates a new MA mission it should be publised to the Dev's first to make sure the mission is acceptable and not exploiting (farming) mission. Once it is approved by the Dev's then it gets published live. I think that is the only way to stop people abusing MA and the only way to get people to play real actual published MA that have a story and actual content in it.
Just my 2 inf.
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Not pursuing a creative endeavor professionally does not automatically mean it's not being taken seriously by the creator.
This isn't a new debate. O'Keefe used to berate Adams for giving his work away. Kurt Vonnegut had a eye-opening dialogue with his sister about this sort of thing as well, which is related in one of his books. Then, of course, you have the attitude that illustration and commercial art isn't really art at all, and so on down through the ages.
Point is, creators are individuals. Individuals have different views on their creations, the process of creating, and what pursuing it seriously entails. I've known many creators, a good number of them professionals. It's interesting to note that more than a few have viewed their commercial products and their work-for-hire as the less serious end of what they do. They pump out pap to make money in order to finance the "more serious" work that wouldn't sell.
It's all a matter of perspective, which means that you can't put too much stock in the idea that "hobby" = "not serious".
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But you did not answer the questions I posed originially. The issue at hand is not whether the creators take their work seriously. I take my work seriously when I'm really into it, otherwise I would not have spent that much time doing it in the first place. The relevent question here is how seriously should the creators expect *other* people to take their work. By defination, a hobby is something that you do in your own time for the purpose of self gratification. It is not necessarily to be used as a tool to attract public adoration. That's what seperate the professionals and amateurs. Generally speaking, a professional does much of their work for public consumption and in return, public acceptance can literally translate into financial rewards. Amateur hobbyists on the other hand do not publish their work for public evaluation very often. This is not to say that they can't (as many people have side jobs in this day and age) but it is not their primary breadwinner. In anycase, if amateur hobbyists are unhappy about the fact that their work is not publically accepted, then perhaps they should temper their own expectations instead of pointing the fingers at their audience. After all, it is a *hobby* which first and foremost, is suppose to be done for your own pleasure.
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...The basic idea behind my suggestion is to no longer allow players to create custom minions, custom lieutenants or custom bosses....
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"Normally occur" might not fit in with what other writers want to publish with MA; normal occurances already occur in game so why mirror pre-exisiting molds?
I am enjoying developing "campaign" style story arcs for the MA, much like I might design for a table top RPG. It essentially has become a virtual table-top RPG arena for me.
Now how does that not kick @$$ ?
Let those who want to abuse the system do so, but let's not take away the options for those that enjoy getting all of our creativity out of the box, yes?
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But you did not answer the questions I posed originially.
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Yah, that doesn't really interest me. I'm replying to your (continued) implication that not getting paid for something means it's somehow less than and/or not made to share.
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That's what seperate the professionals and amateurs.
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What separates professionals and "amateurs" is getting paid. That's it.
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Amateur hobbyists on the other hand do not publish their work for public evaluation very often.
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Don't cruise the web much, huh.
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The relevent question here is how seriously should the creators expect *other* people to take their work.
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I don't think any creator, professional or otherwise, should have expectations about how their work is going to be received. Hope is fine. But expectation? I'd say that's gunna lead to disappointment, whether you're making an MA arc or publishing a novel.
This whole layer you've put on the subject about professional vs. non-professional is highly subjective, ultimately superfluous, and perhaps a touch derogatory to those who might consider sharing to be part of the pleasure of their "hobby".
Judging by the popularity of sites such as DeviantArt, youtube, and a countless slew of others, I'd say that's a perty big demographic.
Which should more than illustrate that, counter to your claim, 'keeping it to yourself' is not inherent in the concept of a "hobby". In fact, the opposite is probably more often the case.
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...The basic idea behind my suggestion is to no longer allow players to create custom minions, custom lieutenants or custom bosses....
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"Normally occur" might not fit in with what other writers want to publish with MA; normal occurances already occur in game so why mirror pre-exisiting molds?
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The game is already loaded with standard enemies who ignore the archetypes, so why should MA customs be forced to stick to them?
They shouldn't for many reasons. This old "fix" keeps getting brought up. It's not something that is really practical for a mission building tool like MA nor does it or will it ever make any sense to limit authors in such a nonsensical way.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
I agree that the only difference between 'professional' & 'amateur' is the cash. I've got a lot of friends that sing and play music as a 'hobby'. A few of them play 'professionally', but when they're not up on that stage, they spend many hours playing for the pure enjoyment of making music with friends. Some of those friends that are only amateurs are as good if not better than some that play professionally. Just because they're not pros, it doesn't mean they are any less talented at what they do. The one thing that they all have in common is their talent and love for music. I don't make a distinction between those that play for money and those that don't. They all love to play music and are very good at what they do for fun.
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Yah, that doesn't really interest me. I'm replying to your (continued) implication that not getting paid for something means it's somehow less than and/or not made to share.
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To be fair, I never claimed that hobby work shouldn't be shared. What I did say was that professionals sharing their work with their public has financial consequences. Amateurs do not. In other words, professionals are serious about their work when it comes to how it will be recieved publically because first and foremost, it is their primary source of income. Amateurs being serious about their work is first and foremost, for their own enjoyment and then for public consumption should they choose to share it. If their personal enjoyment isn't their primary objective then it goes against the very definition of "hobby". Anyways, the two types of seriousness aren't the same in terms of degree when you take into consideration that money is involved.
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What separates professionals and "amateurs" is getting paid. That's it.
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See above.
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Don't cruise the web much, huh.
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There are 305 million people in the United States and it is safe to assume that the vast majority of them have some form of hobby yes? To date, Youtube has recieved 79 million video uploads, 34% of which were by Americans (26 million). 80% of all Youtube videos are uploaded by amateurs (21 million). The average Youtube user has 4 uploads to their credit (5 million). So the most popularly used sharing website used in the U.S. today shows that only 2-3% of Americans actively partake in their sharing process. Would Youtube stats be much different than the other sharing websites you listed? Not according to the rules behind which the whole field of statistics is governed since the sample sizes are so large. I think I'll go with my original assertion that only a small percentage of amateur hobbyists share their work. And let's not even get into details about just how many Youtube videos actually qualifies as "art".
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I don't think any creator, professional or otherwise, should have expectations about how their work is going to be received. Hope is fine. But expectation? I'd say that's gunna lead to disappointment, whether you're making an MA arc or publishing a novel.
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Could've fooled me. On this forum alone, the sheer amount of complaints regarding how their arcs are not getting played enough or how their arc is rated unfairly seems to paint a different picture when it comes to expectation. The fact that many people have gone so far as to try to block out any competing types of missions (i.e. farm) so their arcs can get a fair shake only further reinforces my point.
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This whole layer you've put on the subject about professional vs. non-professional is highly subjective, ultimately superfluous, and perhaps a touch derogatory to those who might consider sharing to be part of the pleasure of their "hobby".
Judging by the popularity of sites such as DeviantArt, youtube, and a countless slew of others, I'd say that's a perty big demographic.
Which should more than illustrate that, counter to your claim, 'keeping it to yourself' is not inherent in the concept of a "hobby". In fact, the opposite is probably more often the case.
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Per Webster's definition of hobby:
a pursuit outside one's regular occupation engaged in especially for relaxation.
Says nothing about sharing their hobbies with others as a requirement for their relaxation. Again, I have not claimed that amateur hobbyists shouldn't share their work with others and one could certainly take pleasure in sharing their work with others. However, to spew venom against those who choose to not to participate or to flat out ignore in their creation is assinine to say the least. If that's not expectation at work then what is it?
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I agree that the only difference between 'professional' & 'amateur' is the cash. I've got a lot of friends that sing and play music as a 'hobby'. A few of them play 'professionally', but when they're not up on that stage, they spend many hours playing for the pure enjoyment of making music with friends. Some of those friends that are only amateurs are as good if not better than some that play professionally. Just because they're not pros, it doesn't mean they are any less talented at what they do. The one thing that they all have in common is their talent and love for music. I don't make a distinction between those that play for money and those that don't. They all love to play music and are very good at what they do for fun.
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I'm not sure just what it is you're suggesting here. Are you really trying to tell me that in general, amateurs and professionals have little difference in terms of the quality of their work?
Hypothetically speaking, do you take law advice from a buddy who read up on some law books instead of an actual lawyer? Do you take medical diagnosis from Yahoo! answers made by some pre-med student instead of an actual doctor? Do you take financial advise from a family member who dabbles in the stock market instead of a fully licensed Financial Advisor? Yet when it comes to the various fields of art, the seperation between professionals and amateurs is all the sudden less relevent? I would certainly hope that's not what you're claiming.
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I agree that the only difference between 'professional' & 'amateur' is the cash. I've got a lot of friends that sing and play music as a 'hobby'. A few of them play 'professionally', but when they're not up on that stage, they spend many hours playing for the pure enjoyment of making music with friends. Some of those friends that are only amateurs are as good if not better than some that play professionally. Just because they're not pros, it doesn't mean they are any less talented at what they do. The one thing that they all have in common is their talent and love for music. I don't make a distinction between those that play for money and those that don't. They all love to play music and are very good at what they do for fun.
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I'm not sure just what it is you're suggesting here. Are you really trying to tell me that in general, amateurs and professionals have little difference in terms of the quality of their work?
Hypothetically speaking, do you take law advice from a buddy who read up on some law books instead of an actual lawyer? Do you take medical diagnosis from Yahoo! answers made by some pre-med student instead of an actual doctor? Do you take financial advise from a family member who dabbles in the stock market instead of a fully licensed Financial Advisor? Yet when it comes to the various fields of art, the seperation between professionals and amateurs is all the sudden less relevent? I would certainly hope that's not what you're claiming.
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Because advice from an amateur artist is not very likely to wind up leaving you bankrupt, in prison, and/or dead.
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Because advice from an amateur artist is not very likely to wind up leaving you bankrupt, in prison, and/or dead.
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Nice attempt to use technicalities to detract from the main point of my examples. I'll say it in more plain terms. Professionals generally are held more accountable for their work because it is their livelihood. Their reputation and future business prospects are at stake should they get a negative response from their audience. This is the same in every field whether you are manufacturing, art or retail. Amateurs are not held to the same standards since well, they're not getting paid for it so who cares if the public doesn't like their work? Sigh, everybody thinks they're a superstar when all they are is really Molly Shannon.
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To be fair, I never claimed that hobby work shouldn't be shared.
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No, you claimed that "Amateur hobbyists on the other hand do not publish their work for public evaluation very often," which, frankly, I find to be pretty absurd. They do it all the time. Especially now with the ability to utilize the internet to do so.
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Amateurs being serious about their work is first and foremost, for their own enjoyment and then for public consumption should they choose to share it. If their personal enjoyment isn't their primary objective then it goes against the very definition of "hobby".
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If their personal enjoyment comes in part from the public consumption, then yes, it still qualifies as a "hobby". The very point of many creative pursuits is to present them to an audience. That's where a large part of the enjoyment can come from.
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Anyways, the two types of seriousness aren't the same in terms of degree when you take into consideration that money is involved.
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So, we're back to non-professionals not being as serious. Isn't that what you said you weren't saying earlier?
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There are 305 million people in the United States and it is safe to assume that the vast majority of them have some form of hobby yes?
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Yes. It's also safe to assume that the vast majority of those people aren't pursuing video production (so much for your stats, sorry). It's also safe to assume that a significant number of people--perhaps the majority--who enjoy artistic pursuits, share their creations with others. Evidence of this includes--but is not limited to--the countless number of websites dedicated to that very thing, including--but not limited to--youtube.
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On this forum alone, the sheer amount of complaints regarding how their arcs are not getting played enough or how their arc is rated unfairly seems to paint a different picture when it comes to expectation.
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So?
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The fact that many people have gone so far as to try to block out any competing types of missions (i.e. farm) so their arcs can get a fair shake only further reinforces my point.
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Again, I don't really care about that point, not arguing that point, already stated my view on it.
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Per Webster's definition of hobby:
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Yah, uhm... don't need dictionaries quoted at me, thanks.
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Says nothing about sharing their hobbies with others as a requirement for their relaxation.
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Nor does it preclude it, which was my point. You appear to think it does. It doesn't.
For example, acting, theatre, performance art, slam poetry, all can be pursued as "hobbies", and public consumption is intrinsic to the personal enjoyment derived from pursuing them.
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If that's not expectation at work then what is it?
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Again, I'm not debating the existence of these expectations.
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To be fair, I never claimed that hobby work shouldn't be shared.
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No, you claimed that "Amateur hobbyists on the other hand do not publish their work for public evaluation very often," which, frankly, I find to be pretty absurd. They do it all the time. Especially now with the ability to utilize the internet to do so.
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Amateurs being serious about their work is first and foremost, for their own enjoyment and then for public consumption should they choose to share it. If their personal enjoyment isn't their primary objective then it goes against the very definition of "hobby".
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If their personal enjoyment comes in part from the public consumption, then yes, it still qualifies as a "hobby". The very point of many creative pursuits is to present them to an audience. That's where a large part of the enjoyment can come from.
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Anyways, the two types of seriousness aren't the same in terms of degree when you take into consideration that money is involved.
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So, we're back to non-professionals not being as serious. Isn't that what you said you weren't saying earlier?
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There are 305 million people in the United States and it is safe to assume that the vast majority of them have some form of hobby yes?
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Yes. It's also safe to assume that the vast majority of those people aren't pursuing video production (so much for your stats, sorry). It's also safe to assume that a significant number of people--perhaps the majority--who enjoy artistic pursuits, share their creations with others. Evidence of this includes--but is not limited to--the countless number of websites dedicated to that very thing, including--but not limited to--youtube.
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On this forum alone, the sheer amount of complaints regarding how their arcs are not getting played enough or how their arc is rated unfairly seems to paint a different picture when it comes to expectation.
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So?
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The fact that many people have gone so far as to try to block out any competing types of missions (i.e. farm) so their arcs can get a fair shake only further reinforces my point.
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Again, I don't really care about that point, not arguing that point, already stated my view on it.
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Per Webster's definition of hobby:
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Yah, uhm... don't need dictionaries quoted at me, thanks.
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Says nothing about sharing their hobbies with others as a requirement for their relaxation.
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Nor does it preclude it, which was my point. You appear to think it does. It doesn't.
For example, acting, theatre, performance art, slam poetry, all can be pursued as "hobbies", and public consumption is intrinsic to the personal enjoyment derived from pursuing them.
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If that's not expectation at work then what is it?
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Again, I'm not debating the existence of these expectations.
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The problem here is that we dont deal with Amateurs willing to be pros.
We deal with pros behaving as Amateurs.
This, to a certain extend, leads to ununployment.
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...Molly Shannon.
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Which pretty much sums up everything as 'point of view' for all parties involved. Some folk may like Molly Shannon, and to them they may be a superstar. Certainly not me, but I will not begrudge someone else their opinion.
Most everyone likes Kevin Spacey or Johnny Depp, but for every fan, there are haters.
Ametuers, professionals, hobbyists - it doesn't matter what label they have. What matters is how much enjoyment an individual gets from whatever it is that they create.
And this comes from a published game designer, just so you know... no bias on these statements. 
As players of this game, we're lucky to be able to design content. How you design yours may not work for me and visa versa.
It's more than annoying, it can be a pain in the rear to group with folk who don't have the common sense to actually work on their characters and learn how to play worth a lick.
But they pay their fees. Let them enjoy their ignorance, block them, and move on.
Sorry for disjointed comments, but I am at work right now... I'm usually a tad more organized in thought. But the types of die rolls are convoluting insurance claims and now I'm hungry. Go figure....
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Hypothetically speaking, do you take law advice from a buddy who read up on some law books instead of an actual lawyer? Do you take medical diagnosis from Yahoo! answers made by some pre-med student instead of an actual doctor? Do you take financial advise from a family member who dabbles in the stock market instead of a fully licensed Financial Advisor?
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I'm sorry, but these analogies are inane.
First of all, we're talking about creative works. Not law, not medicine, not finance.
Secondly, we're not comparing people who take X seriously and people who have only a passing interest, or limited experience, in it. We're talking about people who pursue X avidly for profit and those who pursue it avidly out of passion for it.
Thus, would I take the advice of a doctor who's been doing volunteer work for 30 years over one who's been getting paid for it for 2? Probably, yes.
But we're not talking about advice. We're talking about quality of work.
As I understand it, the implication of your assertions continues to be that professional work is inherently of a higher quality than amateur work... that an amateur can't possibly be as vested, or more vested, in their work than a professional is (I'm afraid your analogies betray this slanted view).
The problem is, this simply isn't the case.
And, frankly, you need look no further than MA for evidence of that. I've already played a handful of arcs that were simply better constructed than much of the regular content in the game, which someone was paid to write.
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No, you claimed that "Amateur hobbyists on the other hand do not publish their work for public evaluation very often," which, frankly, I find to be pretty absurd. They do it all the time. Especially now with the ability to utilize the internet to do so.
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Given that I never used an absolute in my statements, your argument holds no water no matter how many words you try to put into my mouth. Someone who doesn't do something very often does not mean that person never does it.
Let me also clarify something else. Sharing your work with friends, co-workers or family members doesn't really qualify as "public evaluation". To attain an accurate review your work, your audience should be unbiased and those groups I mentioned are anything but.
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If their personal enjoyment comes in part from the public consumption, then yes, it still qualifies as a "hobby". The very point of many creative pursuits is to present them to an audience. That's where a large part of the enjoyment can come from.
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Again, I'm not arguing this point nor do I deny its existance. I myself have published my artwork in college during student exhibits but I did not expect anything out of it. The fact that people were looking at it was good enough for me. If they didn't like it, who cares. I enjoyed the process of creating the work and that was my main goal.
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So, we're back to non-professionals not being as serious. Isn't that what you said you weren't saying earlier?
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I think I already explained quite clearly how a professional being serious with his work is different from an amateur being serious with his work. Both ARE serious, just in different aspects because of the way their life is affected by that work. Never underestimate the power of money and financial reward when it comes to how it affects the way people commit themselves to something.
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Yes. It's also safe to assume that the vast majority of those people aren't pursuing video production (so much for your stats, sorry). It's also safe to assume that a significant number of people--perhaps the majority--who enjoy artistic pursuits, share their creations with others. Evidence of this includes--but is not limited to--the countless number of websites dedicated to that very thing, including--but not limited to--youtube.
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You used a bunch of websites to illustrate your point so I countered using the same reference source. That's the beauty of statistics. As long as the sample size is large enough, you can apply that very formula to the other sample groups belonging to the same category (web users in this case). All those sharing websites out there doesn't mean a thing except to continue to illustrate that only a small percentage of web users publish their work. The only way my Youtube statistical breakdown would be somehow be irrelevent for all those other sharing sites is if the population/demographic that use each site is drastically different from eachother. I doubt that's the case though since the variation of content on Youtube speaks for itself. That is why I chose to use Youtube as an example in the first place since it represents such a large and diverse group of people from all walks of life.
Let me ask you this. How many people in your circle of family and friends actively publish their hobby for the public consumption? I don't mean putting pictures on Picasa to share with your family and friends or singing karaoke at a family reunion. Those are controlled audiences which are not public forums. What I mean is performing at amateur night at a comedy club or putting your artwork in an actual gallery. I live in the bay area which is like open mike central in the U.S. after LA and I don't even see it that much. I can think of at least a few reasons. One being that 40% of Americans suffer from stage fright and possibly even more than that suffer from the fear of failure. No matter how good you may sound while singing in the shower, performing infront of an unfamiliar audience is a completely different story.
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Nor does it preclude it, which was my point. You appear to think it does. It doesn't.
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Again, please quote me as stating that amateurs have *never* shared their work with the open public.
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For example, acting, theatre, performance art, slam poetry, all can be pursued as "hobbies", and public consumption is intrinsic to the personal enjoyment derived from pursuing them.
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As I've said before, I never denied the fact that people can attain joy from performing for others. However, as an unpaid amateur performer of sorts, would you yell and scream at an audience because they're bored with your performance? Would you confront them and berate them because they didn't like it? If someone truly enjoys performing for others, the joy of being in that limelight should already be rewarding enough. Any praise they recieve is just a bonus, not a requirement.
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qft, most players just want to punch things in the face. If they wan't massive depth it is available in far better places.
but punchasizing things in the face? this is a pretty good place for that.
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I don't think having a deep story is a bad thing, but you just have to understand that your target audience is going to be a lot smaller. If you want to get a lot of plays and votes, it's better to focus on making your arc short (and usually funny), keeping the text to a minimum.