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And I would have put bots as most survivable.
Ninjas def highest damage.
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This.
Overall Brutal Upfront Damage: Ninjas
Ranged Damage: Thugs (w/some melee of course)
AoE Damage: Bots
Survivability: Zombies
Anyways, those have been my impressions so far at least, playing each set to very high levels.
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I have played each set to 50 except for Zombies and Ninjas, but I feel this is how they are.
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Bot's take the high rank in survivability for their innate resists... Add in the bubbles that the prot bots give, and thugs enforcers be damned.
Also, bots for top AE damage. No one dishes it out like they do to AE
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defense is far more important in today's game than resists. when you consider that the probots only get one bubble each vs. the enforcers both getting both manuevers you start to realize that thugs is simply not squishy. the enforcers and the bruiser also have decent resists on top of the defense. each probot bubble and each enforcer manuevers is 7.5% base defense. the real difference is the manuevers cant fall off and STAY OFF if yo uare in the middle of a long fight for periods of time. both primaries have the exact same amount of +defense.
you dont actually give up any dmg to slot enforcers with two io def buffs. probots dont have much dmg to start. slotting 4 acc/dam pet io's caps them in both although you will want one to be an acc/dam/end for both tier 2's.
when you consider you can add 10% more defense and 20% more resistance from 4 io's in gang war - still ignoring the secondary here - thugs wins out entirely.
for the numbers - the probot's shield and enforcers manuevers are both 7.5% defense. both can be enhanced and then stacked for 21-22% defense to all pets EXCEPT The probots bubbles as they cant double bubble themselves. the manuevers is always on - the bubbles wear off.
you cant softcap ALL of the bots even if you are FF unless you also take manuevers since the probots will only hit around 39% from their single bubble, ff single bubbles and ff dispersion bubble. thugs will cap out all pets as traps or ff with no manuevers at all.
to bottom line it all:
my thugs/traps - all 4 pet uniques in gang war, ONE defense buff in enforcers
tier 1 pets: 20% resists to all, 46.5% defense to all
tier 2 pets: 46% resist to letha, 20% resist to everything else, 46.5% defense to all
tier 3 pet: 46% smash/lethal, 26% fire/cold/toxic, 20% resist, 46.5% defense to all
enforcer manuevers also prevent things like confusion and perception debuffs on the pets.
my bots/traps (with one edict of the master defense and one sovereign right resist and TWO defense buffs in probots)
tier 1: 36% resist lethal/cold/psi, 10% resist rest, 41% defense to all
tier 2: 36% resist lethal/cold/psi, 10% rest, 31% defense to all
tier 3: 36% resist lethal/cold/psi, 10% rest, 41% defense to all
(numbers pulled in game, no calculator used)
thugs wins
as for top aoe dmg - it's a wash between thugs and bots. when you consider that slotting achille's heel -20% resistance proc in enforcers and they keep it up at a 90% rate due to having 12 attacks between them that use it and the significantly faster recharging and animating aoe's on thugs it ends up being even. anecdotal: i can team tp into a spawn with fresh pets and once under control the bots will melt them faster. i team tp to the next spawn and it's going to be a while before incendiary missiles or any of the aoe's ar eup. in fact it's not uncommon for the assault bot to sit there for up to 10 seconds doing absolutely nothing.
i have both at 50 with identical io builds (traps is pretty cheap to io out hehe). the obvious differences are the extra io's in gang war vs. no repair, and the achilles heel vs. the extra defense buff in the tier 2 pets. when it comes to dealing aoe dmg in a farm - it's a wash. fire bomb does less dmg than swarm missiles but has a substantially faster recharge. enforcers aoe's blow away the aoe's from probots and tier 1 drones. single target dmg bots has nothing on thugs as the bruiser does very good single target dmg especially when combined with an achilles heel proc from enforcers and acid mortar (also with an additional achille's heel proc for both characters). also because the bots arent soft capped i'm replacing pets far more often - especially the probots who with the heal are the overwhelming majority of the sets survivability.
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I am no expert, far from it, but I have to disagree with one thing...kinda.
On my 41 Bots/FF I have, looking at thier stats in-game, gotten all my bots to over 50% def (to ranged and AoE) using my bubbles, ProBots bubbles, big bubble and Maneuvers.
But looking at your numbers that shouldn't be possible...right? So what else could have enhanced the Def of my bots?
Thanks!
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On my 41 Bots/FF I have, looking at thier stats in-game, gotten all my bots to over 50% def (to ranged and AoE) using my bubbles, ProBots bubbles, big bubble and Maneuvers.
But looking at your numbers that shouldn't be possible...right? So what else could have enhanced the Def of my bots?
Thanks!
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JupiterMoon's character in his post is bots/traps, not bots/FF, which is why they are not soft capped. If you actually read his ENTIRE post, not just part of it, you will see that he is doing an equal comparison - bots/traps to thugs/traps with identical enhancement slotting.
He does note in at least one of his posts that you can softcap with bots/FF but I think it is pretty obvious that you give up a lot to do that - */FF is pretty much a completely defensive set with no way to boost your pets offensively.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
You know, all this discussion on the ability to soft-cap or not is nice... but: is an IO build actually "In a Vacuum?"
While I'm not sure it would matter much... what's the results when IOs are removed from the discussion? A completely SO build for MMs, how do the sets perform?
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Thugs survivability is terrible. I'd rather have resists on all of my ranged pet than defense. Reason being when I pull spawns I park the ranged pets in range but not near me and spam provoke. I want the times they get hit to be smaller, because getting shot at won't happen that often and I might not have a chance to heal them immediately.
In a vaccuum Necro has some pretty bad survivability, but mix that with a secondary that does a lot of hit debuffing and add a heal IO to each set of pets and they really start to perform.
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Best pets in a vaccum
Bots, followed by Necro. Ninjas, Thugs and Mercenaries suffocate right off, and the zombies get dried out and kind of brittle after a while.
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That would depend on how the bots computers are cooled if there air cooled they would freeze up just as fast.
Joking aside is there NOTHING that merks do best? Are they rely that sub par to the rest of the MM sets?
Captain Den'Rath 53* Merk/Traps MM, Rivona 50Energy Blast/Time Cor,Victoria Von Heilwig 53* Dual Pistols/Traps Cor, Crab Spider Webguard 53* SOA, Accela 53* Bot/FF MM,Valkyrie's Executor 53* Broadsword/Shield Def Scrap. On FREEDOM! @Knight Of Bronze
"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
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Best pets in a vaccum
Bots, followed by Necro. Ninjas, Thugs and Mercenaries suffocate right off, and the zombies get dried out and kind of brittle after a while.
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Uhh... most IO choices avail to mercs? I'm streching here....
That would depend on how the bots computers are cooled if there air cooled they would freeze up just as fast.
Joking aside is there NOTHING that merks do best? Are they rely that sub par to the rest of the MM sets?
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Wassabi Grav/Kin 50 (before badges/accolades were in game) Pinnacle
Miss Command Bots/Traps 50 Justice
*others left off due to space issues
All I know is, my Mercs/Poison MM was by far the weakest MM I've played.
They provide less damage than other sets, do nearly all lethal damage (the most heavily resisted redside, with Longbow bosses bring up 50%+ resistances regularly), have no real defense bonuses, and the tier 2 support pet is neither reliable nor completely functional. Worst of all, in my experience the Commando, who a Merc MM really relies on, doesn't cycle his powers in an efficient or even sane way.
To me, the issue is obsessive level of lethal damage. The only other MM set with so much focus on a single damage type is Bots with Energy. I don't need to point out that energy resists are both less frequent and less ridiculously high.
Ninjas are little DPS machines of death that get killed very easily. So long as you make sure they stay in melee and you have them buffed up, then they won't be dying very quickly at all.
As for survivability it depends on your build. Bots are the supposed best for this categoryWhile I, myself, argue the presented point with Necro/Pain.
For the Ninja/* MM ... Teleport Foe is your scariest weapon.
Unlike most of the other primaries, where your preferred tactic is to either dive into the piles (zombies, thugs) or to stand back and open up (bots, mercs) ... with Ninjas your best play is ABDUCTION. This is because Ninjas are stupidly squishy when they "dive in" against massed enemy forces, but they make remarkably short work of abducted foes who are brought to them.
TP Foe ... "feed 'em to the Ninjas" ... wash/rinse/repeat.
It's amazing how fast a single outnumbered critter can drop when facing Ninjas alone.
And you can essentially do this starting at level 8.
And even when your TP Foe won't pull a critter due to level+ranking giving them sufficient resistance to being teleported, the TP Foe power still counts as a non-line of sight "attack" and thus as a ranged pull ... even around corners so you don't have to eat alpha for the team ... thus, still enabling the "divide and conquer" tactics that best leverage Ninja powers.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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You know, all this discussion on the ability to soft-cap or not is nice... but: is an IO build actually "In a Vacuum?"
While I'm not sure it would matter much... what's the results when IOs are removed from the discussion? A completely SO build for MMs, how do the sets perform?
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mm's dont cost near as much as the other at's to io out. this is because the pet sets areplentiful and not in demand. this keeps pricing down.
each of my two mm's cost no more than 200m each in infamy to io out for 60% global recharge. that includes one LOTG for each character at 30m and 100m respectively.
the total cost of putting all 4 uniques in gang war for my thugs/traps? 15 million. total.
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You know, all this discussion on the ability to soft-cap or not is nice... but: is an IO build actually "In a Vacuum?"
While I'm not sure it would matter much... what's the results when IOs are removed from the discussion? A completely SO build for MMs, how do the sets perform?
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mm's dont cost near as much as the other at's to io out. this is because the pet sets areplentiful and not in demand. this keeps pricing down.
each of my two mm's cost no more than 200m each in infamy to io out for 60% global recharge. that includes one LOTG for each character at 30m and 100m respectively.
the total cost of putting all 4 uniques in gang war for my thugs/traps? 15 million. total.
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...you say 15 million so easy... like it's a small number.
Seriously, how do people make that kind of Inf? My blue side level 50 never had more than 10 mil at any one time... My Red side characters? HA! I'm lucky if I can afford to ugrade my normal enhancements...
Regardless... even excepting that the IOs are 'Cheap' - it doesn't answer the question I raised.
How do the sets perform without IOs?
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I suspect from the Spec Ops powers that Mercs is intended to operate something like Ninjas. They have stealth, a sniper attack, and a number of control powers to blind and hold the foes. Unfortunately, their use of these powers, due to the AI, is too random to provide the kind of protection a constant Defense bonus can. This results in them really underperforming, even though they are the only henchmen that have both Smashing and Lethal Resistance across the board. (Then again, since they can stay at range that's not really an issue)
I think that if their Flash Bombs didn't have a control component, and only debuffed to hit, and recharged MUCH more quickly, they would be considerably better. As it is, I think the devs put too much into a power that's probably supposed to be Smoke Grenade.
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You know, all this discussion on the ability to soft-cap or not is nice... but: is an IO build actually "In a Vacuum?"
While I'm not sure it would matter much... what's the results when IOs are removed from the discussion? A completely SO build for MMs, how do the sets perform?
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mm's dont cost near as much as the other at's to io out. this is because the pet sets areplentiful and not in demand. this keeps pricing down.
each of my two mm's cost no more than 200m each in infamy to io out for 60% global recharge. that includes one LOTG for each character at 30m and 100m respectively.
the total cost of putting all 4 uniques in gang war for my thugs/traps? 15 million. total.
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...you say 15 million so easy... like it's a small number.
Seriously, how do people make that kind of Inf? My blue side level 50 never had more than 10 mil at any one time... My Red side characters? HA! I'm lucky if I can afford to ugrade my normal enhancements...
Regardless... even excepting that the IOs are 'Cheap' - it doesn't answer the question I raised.
How do the sets perform without IOs?
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most blue side teams farm. damn. slow. one of the reasons wh y i wont play heroes anymore
easiest way to farm at 50 is to just run ae missions and get bronze/silver rolls and sell the recipes on the auction house. you can do up to 30 million an hour doing this depending on how OCD you are.
I make 50 million a day easily. 10 mil really is nothing. If you aren't making that much you are honestly not trying to make inf at all. That's okay of course, as there is a lot more to this game than influence, such as RP, leveling alts, hanging with friends or PvP. But if you're trying to make money and aren't making over 15 mil a day you're pretty much doing it wrong.
Anyway, on the topic of Mercenaries:
You can control the spec op controls, sort of, if you just resummon every spawn or every other spawn. It takes 2 slots to get enough recharge (or a lot of global recharge, ew) to where spec ops are up frequently (45-ish seconds) but getting tear gas every spawn is pretty worth it.
Mercs still suck though, guys. Don't play them ~
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I make 50 million a day easily. 10 mil really is nothing. If you aren't making that much you are honestly not trying to make inf at all. That's okay of course, as there is a lot more to this game than influence, such as RP, leveling alts, hanging with friends or PvP. But if you're trying to make money and aren't making over 15 mil a day you're pretty much doing it wrong.
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I gathered that a long time ago. I just haven't figured out how to 'do ir right' yet.
Esecially on Red Side, where I don't have a 45+ character to aid in that issue...
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Farm more.
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I make 50 million a day easily. 10 mil really is nothing. If you aren't making that much you are honestly not trying to make inf at all. That's okay of course, as there is a lot more to this game than influence, such as RP, leveling alts, hanging with friends or PvP. But if you're trying to make money and aren't making over 15 mil a day you're pretty much doing it wrong.
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I gathered that a long time ago. I just haven't figured out how to 'do ir right' yet.
Esecially on Red Side, where I don't have a 45+ character to aid in that issue...
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the money will come in as yo uget closer to 50
if you arent 50, just do more ae missions and buy sub 40 silver/bronze rolls and sell the recipes.
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I make 50 million a day easily.
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As long as you don't do the following:
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RP, leveling alts, hanging with friends or PvP.
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As for the OP: None of Mastermind's Henchmen/Pets can fit in a household vacuum except Seeker Drones.
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without provoke it's pretty damn hard to keep anything on the mastermind itself once the pets open up. i dont even use the patron shield anymore.
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I believe that's part of the definition of "Tankermind". Taking Provoke, that is.
We're speaking in general, though, not specific, so the preference for Bots in Tankerminding would not be an issue.
Then again, it could be argued that pairing Thugs with Traps or FF would not be general. You would not get the same results with Thugs/Dark or Thugs/Pain. In fact, in comparing Thugs/Dark to Bots/Traps, I can speak from my own experience.