single target dmg - ninja
survivable - thugs
Ninja's are highest damage!?!?!?! Thugs are most survivable!?!?!?!?!? My mind has been blown!
I'm assuming that Ninjas smash pretty hard when you can keep them alive, which makes sense.
But I thought thugs were considered squishy, what gives?
And I would have put bots as most survivable.
Ninjas def highest damage.
Wassabi Grav/Kin 50 (before badges/accolades were in game) Pinnacle
Miss Command Bots/Traps 50 Justice
*others left off due to space issues
Two Enforcers give a total of base 15% defense to all damage, which enhances nicely to a maximum of around 23%. Of course, getting that much defense enhanced can be difficult without sacrificing damage.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
[ QUOTE ]
And I would have put bots as most survivable.
Ninjas def highest damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
This.
Overall Brutal Upfront Damage: Ninjas
Ranged Damage: Thugs (w/some melee of course)
AoE Damage: Thugs
Survivability: Bots
Anyways, those have been my impressions so far at least, playing each set to very high levels.
Sadly, I don't see Mercs being mentioned at all. 
From my limited experience, I'd put Ninjas at the top of damage (no matter how ugly Oni is). Thugs would oust Bots for survivability in my opinion.
Bot's take the high rank in survivability for their innate resists... Add in the bubbles that the prot bots give, and thugs enforcers be damned.
Also, bots for top AE damage. No one dishes it out like they do to AE
Wassabi Grav/Kin 50 (before badges/accolades were in game) Pinnacle
Miss Command Bots/Traps 50 Justice
*others left off due to space issues
[ QUOTE ]
Also, bots for top AE damage. No one dishes it out like they do to AE
[/ QUOTE ]
True, if you grab a Patron AoE Immob
Best pets in a vaccum
Bots, followed by Necro. Ninjas, Thugs and Mercenaries suffocate right off, and the zombies get dried out and kind of brittle after a while.
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
[ QUOTE ]
Best pets in a vaccum
Bots, followed by Necro. Ninjas, Thugs and Mercenaries suffocate right off, and the zombies get dried out and kind of brittle after a while.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's why you go /FF, bubbles keep the oxygen in.
@Mechaniker
Official Old Angry German Guy of CoV.
My Characters: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=247787
[ QUOTE ]
That's why you go /FF, bubbles keep the oxygen in.
[/ QUOTE ]
Smoke Bomb and/or the arsonist, though :/
And gang war, that'd be totally useless really. You can't bubble all of them quickly enough.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's why you go /FF, bubbles keep the oxygen in.
[/ QUOTE ]
Smoke Bomb and/or the arsonist, though :/
And gang war, that'd be totally useless really. You can't bubble all of them quickly enough.
[/ QUOTE ]
As far as I'm concerned, thugs don't exist.
Despite their boons, they're the only primary I don't play.
Thugs aren't on the same thematic level as Robots and Zombies.
@Mechaniker
Official Old Angry German Guy of CoV.
My Characters: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=247787
Robots most surviveable. Double bubbles on all pets plus both protectors know Repair. Also plenty of knockback will be going on which will reduce dps. Oh and the bonfire that the Thermal Missiles make from the Big Robot causes fear for a short period.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
[ QUOTE ]
Overall Brutal Upfront Damage: Ninjas
Ranged Damage: Thugs (w/some melee of course)
AoE Damage: Thugs
Survivability: Bots
[/ QUOTE ]
I will second that. I'm not sure if JupiterMoon was trying to be funny (Ninjas is best damage, but only in a limited way) or just forgot Bots.
Bots is easily the most survivable, with the Protector Bots' shields and healing powers, and their innate Lethal (but not Smashing!) protection. Enforcers gives Thugs good defense as well, but 1) I believe Force Sheild is supposed to have higher defense (City of Data has some inconsistent modifiers that may or may not be in game) 2) Thugs doesn't have a heal and 3) Punks have no innate defense, Enforcers have only the same Lethal as Bots, and Bruiser has both Smash and Lethal defense. (As well as Fire, Cold and Toxic)
What this basically means is that while Bots has consistent protection across all three tiers, Thugs has a very tough Bruiser, fairly tough Enforcers, and fragile Punks. And since the Enforcers do the majority of Thugs' damage, you have to sacrifice damage to 3 slot them for defense, while 3 slotting Protector Bots for Defense will only cost you a small portion of your overall damage. And you can slot Heal for even more resiliance. (Although there are limited returns on that, due to the AI and the fact that the Proto Bot heal is pretty good out of the box)
As for damage, Ninjas do the highest single target damage, but once you get up to about 2.5 targets per AoE attack Thugs begins to surpass them. This doesn't include Criticals, though, so Ninjas may still be the overall better damage dealer. Thugs can attack at range, however, which gives them much better survivability than Ninjas, so if you're regularly going to be facing spawns of three or more foes, the damage difference will probably be negligible.
But what if you're John Woo? Clearly that guy needs a primary for Mastermind too. How else will you get a trillion random dudes with two pistols in the same room?
[ QUOTE ]
Bot's take the high rank in survivability for their innate resists... Add in the bubbles that the prot bots give, and thugs enforcers be damned.
Also, bots for top AE damage. No one dishes it out like they do to AE
[/ QUOTE ]
defense is far more important in today's game than resists. when you consider that the probots only get one bubble each vs. the enforcers both getting both manuevers you start to realize that thugs is simply not squishy. the enforcers and the bruiser also have decent resists on top of the defense. each probot bubble and each enforcer manuevers is 7.5% base defense. the real difference is the manuevers cant fall off and STAY OFF if yo uare in the middle of a long fight for periods of time. both primaries have the exact same amount of +defense.
you dont actually give up any dmg to slot enforcers with two io def buffs. probots dont have much dmg to start. slotting 4 acc/dam pet io's caps them in both although you will want one to be an acc/dam/end for both tier 2's.
when you consider you can add 10% more defense and 20% more resistance from 4 io's in gang war - still ignoring the secondary here - thugs wins out entirely.
for the numbers - the probot's shield and enforcers manuevers are both 7.5% defense. both can be enhanced and then stacked for 21-22% defense to all pets EXCEPT The probots bubbles as they cant double bubble themselves. the manuevers is always on - the bubbles wear off.
you cant softcap ALL of the bots even if you are FF unless you also take manuevers since the probots will only hit around 39% from their single bubble, ff single bubbles and ff dispersion bubble. thugs will cap out all pets as traps or ff with no manuevers at all.
to bottom line it all:
my thugs/traps - all 4 pet uniques in gang war, ONE defense buff in enforcers
tier 1 pets: 20% resists to all, 46.5% defense to all
tier 2 pets: 46% resist to letha, 20% resist to everything else, 46.5% defense to all
tier 3 pet: 46% smash/lethal, 26% fire/cold/toxic, 20% resist, 46.5% defense to all
enforcer manuevers also prevent things like confusion and perception debuffs on the pets.
my bots/traps (with one edict of the master defense and one sovereign right resist and TWO defense buffs in probots)
tier 1: 36% resist lethal/cold/psi, 10% resist rest, 41% defense to all
tier 2: 36% resist lethal/cold/psi, 10% rest, 31% defense to all
tier 3: 36% resist lethal/cold/psi, 10% rest, 41% defense to all
(numbers pulled in game, no calculator used)
thugs wins
as for top aoe dmg - it's a wash between thugs and bots. when you consider that slotting achille's heel -20% resistance proc in enforcers and they keep it up at a 90% rate due to having 12 attacks between them that use it and the significantly faster recharging and animating aoe's on thugs it ends up being even. anecdotal: i can team tp into a spawn with fresh pets and once under control the bots will melt them faster. i team tp to the next spawn and it's going to be a while before incendiary missiles or any of the aoe's ar eup. in fact it's not uncommon for the assault bot to sit there for up to 10 seconds doing absolutely nothing.
i have both at 50 with identical io builds (traps is pretty cheap to io out hehe). the obvious differences are the extra io's in gang war vs. no repair, and the achilles heel vs. the extra defense buff in the tier 2 pets. when it comes to dealing aoe dmg in a farm - it's a wash. fire bomb does less dmg than swarm missiles but has a substantially faster recharge. enforcers aoe's blow away the aoe's from probots and tier 1 drones. single target dmg bots has nothing on thugs as the bruiser does very good single target dmg especially when combined with an achilles heel proc from enforcers and acid mortar (also with an additional achille's heel proc for both characters). also because the bots arent soft capped i'm replacing pets far more often - especially the probots who with the heal are the overwhelming majority of the sets survivability.
[ QUOTE ]
when you consider you can add 10% more defense and 20% more resistance from 4 io's in gang war - still ignoring the secondary here - thugs wins out entirely.
[/ QUOTE ]
The Def/Res numbers do not address the fact that Proto Bots can heal other bots, without your needing to address the situation personally, and Thugs does not. This isn't just an advantage in battle, it means that if your henchmen take hits, the Proto Bots will typically heal them up before the next battle begins.
And I've never had problems with bubbles wearing off and not being reapplied immediately. At best I would say that you've shown that you can get Bots level defense out of Thugs by spending huge amounts of influence on IOs. And by that same token, Bots by that level will be doing as much damage as Thugs if not more.
It's kind of like Ninjas and Thugs, really. Thugs is better most of the time, Ninjas is better in a specific case. For defense, Bots is better most of the time, Thugs is better in a specific case. Of course, the fact that Thugs is in both of those lists says something. 
Survivability- bots
ST damage- ninjas
aoe damage- thugs
Honestly, ive seen high level thugs MM players and i know they rip though stuff. i have a lv. 50 bots and I know they are survivable, but they also rip through stuff. Incendiary missiles only has a 16 second recharge, same as swarm missiles. For the damage those burn patches do, as well as for how long they last, thats crazy good. But i still think on average thugs might do more. And as for the boasting about having the extra resist and defense from RIP sets in Gang War, dont expect it to last. They already removed it from MM pets having it already, even though the teir 1's for many players die a lot. And as far as i know, Soul Extraction and Dark Servant can't slot it, even though they are definitely long recharge pets. It was probably just an oversight, just like the recharge IO's from sets affecting pet attack rate. It will get removed eventually, so enjoy it while u can. As it is, my 4 out of 6 of my bots on my bots/traps have over 45% defense all (but psy), and the probots will have like 35% or so, which isnt horrible. Considering I also have seeker drones which do tohitt debuff, I do just fine. But yea, i still stand on my opinions so far.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
when you consider you can add 10% more defense and 20% more resistance from 4 io's in gang war - still ignoring the secondary here - thugs wins out entirely.
[/ QUOTE ]
The Def/Res numbers do not address the fact that Proto Bots can heal other bots, without your needing to address the situation personally, and Thugs does not. This isn't just an advantage in battle, it means that if your henchmen take hits, the Proto Bots will typically heal them up before the next battle begins.
And I've never had problems with bubbles wearing off and not being reapplied immediately. At best I would say that you've shown that you can get Bots level defense out of Thugs by spending huge amounts of influence on IOs. And by that same token, Bots by that level will be doing as much damage as Thugs if not more.
[/ QUOTE ]
*posting on diff account cause something has hosed the main one for board posting*
actually i did address the healing of the probots - they dont heal too well when dead.
because i cant soft cap them, and their lethal resists alone arent enough - the probots die a lot more often than ANY of my thugs pets.
when you lose one probot you lose half the defense possible on you rother pets and that heal
not to mention that enhancing said heal can cause issues.
no. survivability goes to thugs. since thugs and bots take some form of healing in the secondary or - if not in the secondary - they take aid other the heal is moot. i've never had a problem keeping the thugs alive.
more anecdotal: you fight positron early in the 40's twice. on my bots/traps he had me replacing the probots constantly and one time wiped out the bots/traps entirely. on the thugs traps? the first time i only had to replace the arsonist who for some unknown reason ran outside of the ffg bubble just as he hit his aoe, and the second time i fought him i didn thave to replace a single pet. not one.
you cant softcap the probots unless you are FF AND take and slot manuevers. when talking about the most survivability possible in an mm primary not counting the secondary but considering io sets - thugs wins thanks to gang war taking both pet and pet recharge uniques.
i'm not talking about what's on paper either. i have both. at 50. both with the exact same slotting. i'm replacing probots constantly. i rarely if ever have to replace a thug unless it runs out of the ffg.
[ QUOTE ]
Survivability- bots
ST damage- ninjas
aoe damage- thugs
Honestly, ive seen high level thugs MM players and i know they rip though stuff. i have a lv. 50 bots and I know they are survivable, but they also rip through stuff. Incendiary missiles only has a 16 second recharge, same as swarm missiles. For the damage those burn patches do, as well as for how long they last, thats crazy good. But i still think on average thugs might do more. And as for the boasting about having the extra resist and defense from RIP sets in Gang War, dont expect it to last. They already removed it from MM pets having it already, even though the teir 1's for many players die a lot. And as far as i know, Soul Extraction and Dark Servant can't slot it, even though they are definitely long recharge pets. It was probably just an oversight, just like the recharge IO's from sets affecting pet attack rate. It will get removed eventually, so enjoy it while u can. As it is, my 4 out of 6 of my bots on my bots/traps have over 45% defense all (but psy), and the probots will have like 35% or so, which isnt horrible. Considering I also have seeker drones which do tohitt debuff, I do just fine. But yea, i still stand on my opinions so far.
[/ QUOTE ]
um..if they remove the ability for me to slot the second 5% defense unique io i'll just put the second defense buff io back into enforcers - and have them softcapped still. shrug.
i try not to give opinoins about sets i dont have. in this case i have both a bots and a thugs. both traps secondaries. both the exact same slotting, power choices with the exception of the thugs having gang war and only aid other from medicine, and the bots having no repair but aid self from medicine.
both have the exact same sets slotted in the exact same places. both have the exact same accolades and the exact same patron.
the bots is not as survivable. the assault bot will sit for long periods doing nothing. i replace probots more often than i replace ANY thugs pets whether i'm farming large maps or fighting av's/eb's. the extra seeker drones matter little fighting an av/eb as the tohitdebuff is almost entirely negated - and i have my own seeker drones anyway.
the difference between 35% and 45% defense (and it's defense to all as thugs/traps, no PSI hole as with /ff) is palpable. ask any /sr or /shield brute how their effective survivability shot through the roof when they softcapped their secondaries.
[ QUOTE ]
actually i did address the healing of the probots - they dont heal too well when dead.
[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter -- they DO heal, therefore the survivability due to healing DOES count. You're only seeing a difference because you have softcapped Defense, with factors that have NOTHING to do with Force Shields vs Manuevers. In short, your behavior is entirely and only because you have a power in which you can slot Recharge Intensive Pet Sets.
You should also be getting at least somewhat more shielding with 2 Defense IOs, unless you are rounding off the numbers that you posted. I'm guessing the latter is the case, although with more Defense slotted the difference between the Protector Bots and the other Bots would be even greater...
The title of this post is "in a vacumn", though, not "at level 50 with all the money I need to totally IO my character out".
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
actually i did address the healing of the probots - they dont heal too well when dead.
[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter -- they DO heal, therefore the survivability due to healing DOES count. You're only seeing a difference because you have softcapped Defense, with factors that have NOTHING to do with Force Shields vs Manuevers. In short, your behavior is entirely and only because you have a power in which you can slot Recharge Intensive Pet Sets.
You should also be getting at least somewhat more shielding with 2 Defense IOs, unless you are rounding off the numbers that you posted. I'm guessing the latter is the case, although with more Defense slotted the difference between the Protector Bots and the other Bots would be even greater...
The title of this post is "in a vacumn", though, not "at level 50 with all the money I need to totally IO my character out".
[/ QUOTE ]
the numbers i posted are as they appear in game from the combat attributes panel and as i already said, thugs/traps can still softcap WITHOUT the second unique IO
and probot individual survivability DOES matter. if they are dead, they cant heal or refresh bubbles.
obviously the set works fine or i wouldnt have wasted time and money on one, but it's a lie that thugs have survivability issues except before yo uget the second enforcer. when you factor in they do substantially more single target and aoe dmg at the pre 32 levels as well vs. bots their survivability skyrockets - dead enemies do no dmg. enforcers have deadly and fast recharging cones at level 12.
oh and btw, you never 3 slot either t2 pets with defense. the third defensebuff is a total waste. never more than 2. if their base defense was substantially higher this would be a different story. the third io adds 0.7% defense to each bubble. the slot is better served with an acc/dam or acc/dam/end pet io
to the op - life pre level 12 as any of the primaries can suck. post level 12 i had an easier time with thugs than ninja, robots or necro and it's because of the insane dmg from the enforcers which adds to their survivability. the difference in the recharge speeds of the various attacks is more noticeable at level 12-23 than at any other level range.
[ QUOTE ]
the numbers i posted are as they appear in game from the combat attributes panel
[/ QUOTE ]
Then I'm guessing they are rounded off.
A quick analysis: You have 41% Def on your other Bots, and 31% Def on your Proto Bots. As the only difference there could be between the two is the Force Shield, that sets the strength of the Force Shields at 10%. 10% means that you have a 33% boost due to Enhancements, while with 2 SOs you should see a 40% boost to a defense. As 140% of 7.5 is 10.5, I would put that error off to round off.
This means that there is 21% Defense unaccounted for. 5% of this defense is from your Pet Damage Enhancement. That means 16% is coming from you and your Force Field Generator. FFG has 10% Defense, so with 3 slotted Defense in it you should have ~15.7%
So your total is
16% (FFG) + 5% (IO) + 10% (FS) + 10% (FS) = 41%
Now, assuming you have Traps slotted exactly the same, your Thugs should be as follows:
16% (FFG) + 5% (IO) + 5% (IO) + 10.25% (Mnv) + 10.25% (Mnv) = 46.5%
Again, that's rounded off, so there could be some error. But you can see there seems to be a problem, you have MORE Defense with the Enforcers you had with the Protos, but with half the Defense slotted. If we assume Manuevers is 7.5%, then your slotting modifier should be:
10.25/7.5% = 1.367
On the other hand, if we assume the slotting modifier is 1.2, which it should be for 1 IO, then it is:
10.25/1.2 = 8.52
Thank you. You have just verified City of Data. Manuevers at level 50 provides 8.5% Defense, not 7.5. Although there is probably still a rounding error above, just like there was with the Thugs, 8.5 represents a much smaller margin of error from 8.52 than 7.5.
So I must concede, Thugs Manuevers actually does provide MORE Defense than Force Sheild. Whether or not this is intentional I really can't say. However, according to City of Data this value is not constant, but increases as you get closer to 50. It is actually closer to 6.5 at level 1, and would be 7.5 at about level 26.
Considering this is such a small value compared to the fact that Proto Bots get only one shield, I'll say that's unimportant and concede the whole argument. It appears as if Thugs and Bots are intended to be more in balance in terms of defense. You still do have healing, to balance the lack of a shield in the Proto Bot, and the extra effort required to make sure the Proto Bots stay alive is probably just shifted from the Bruiser, which has to be in melee to deal damage. With capped Defense it may not be noticable to you, but I know with my Thugs/Dark I need to keep a close eye on my Bruiser, although he's quite capable of tanking for the team as long as I do.
I'll also add that only Bots will place a Defense on you. If you're not Tankerminding, though, that may not be a concern. And also, while the higher firepower of Thugs at low levels does help their survivability, if you are on a team, lack of firepower doesn't hinder you. And in fact, it may be easier to protect your Proto Bots and keep them from the fate you describe above.
I suppose the answer is, "It depends".
without provoke it's pretty damn hard to keep anything on the mastermind itself once the pets open up. i dont even use the patron shield anymore.
Just wondering about pet performance, ignoring every other factor. I'm only worrying about the 6 commandable pets with both their upgrade powers.
What puts up the most single target damage, and what's the most survivable?