Jupiter_Moon

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You know, all this discussion on the ability to soft-cap or not is nice... but: is an IO build actually "In a Vacuum?"

While I'm not sure it would matter much... what's the results when IOs are removed from the discussion? A completely SO build for MMs, how do the sets perform?

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mm's dont cost near as much as the other at's to io out. this is because the pet sets areplentiful and not in demand. this keeps pricing down.

each of my two mm's cost no more than 200m each in infamy to io out for 60% global recharge. that includes one LOTG for each character at 30m and 100m respectively.

the total cost of putting all 4 uniques in gang war for my thugs/traps? 15 million. total.

without provoke it's pretty damn hard to keep anything on the mastermind itself once the pets open up. i dont even use the patron shield anymore.

just checked using second build which i've never set on my thugs/traps and they give 8.43% per enforcer at level 50 unenhanced. doing the same on my 50 bots/traps the probots are 7.5% unenhanced

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actually i did address the healing of the probots - they dont heal too well when dead.

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It doesn't matter -- they DO heal, therefore the survivability due to healing DOES count. You're only seeing a difference because you have softcapped Defense, with factors that have NOTHING to do with Force Shields vs Manuevers. In short, your behavior is entirely and only because you have a power in which you can slot Recharge Intensive Pet Sets.

You should also be getting at least somewhat more shielding with 2 Defense IOs, unless you are rounding off the numbers that you posted. I'm guessing the latter is the case, although with more Defense slotted the difference between the Protector Bots and the other Bots would be even greater...

The title of this post is "in a vacumn", though, not "at level 50 with all the money I need to totally IO my character out".

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the numbers i posted are as they appear in game from the combat attributes panel and as i already said, thugs/traps can still softcap WITHOUT the second unique IO

and probot individual survivability DOES matter. if they are dead, they cant heal or refresh bubbles.

obviously the set works fine or i wouldnt have wasted time and money on one, but it's a lie that thugs have survivability issues except before yo uget the second enforcer. when you factor in they do substantially more single target and aoe dmg at the pre 32 levels as well vs. bots their survivability skyrockets - dead enemies do no dmg. enforcers have deadly and fast recharging cones at level 12.

oh and btw, you never 3 slot either t2 pets with defense. the third defensebuff is a total waste. never more than 2. if their base defense was substantially higher this would be a different story. the third io adds 0.7% defense to each bubble. the slot is better served with an acc/dam or acc/dam/end pet io

to the op - life pre level 12 as any of the primaries can suck. post level 12 i had an easier time with thugs than ninja, robots or necro and it's because of the insane dmg from the enforcers which adds to their survivability. the difference in the recharge speeds of the various attacks is more noticeable at level 12-23 than at any other level range.

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Survivability- bots

ST damage- ninjas

aoe damage- thugs

Honestly, ive seen high level thugs MM players and i know they rip though stuff. i have a lv. 50 bots and I know they are survivable, but they also rip through stuff. Incendiary missiles only has a 16 second recharge, same as swarm missiles. For the damage those burn patches do, as well as for how long they last, thats crazy good. But i still think on average thugs might do more. And as for the boasting about having the extra resist and defense from RIP sets in Gang War, dont expect it to last. They already removed it from MM pets having it already, even though the teir 1's for many players die a lot. And as far as i know, Soul Extraction and Dark Servant can't slot it, even though they are definitely long recharge pets. It was probably just an oversight, just like the recharge IO's from sets affecting pet attack rate. It will get removed eventually, so enjoy it while u can. As it is, my 4 out of 6 of my bots on my bots/traps have over 45% defense all (but psy), and the probots will have like 35% or so, which isnt horrible. Considering I also have seeker drones which do tohitt debuff, I do just fine. But yea, i still stand on my opinions so far.

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um..if they remove the ability for me to slot the second 5% defense unique io i'll just put the second defense buff io back into enforcers - and have them softcapped still. shrug.

i try not to give opinoins about sets i dont have. in this case i have both a bots and a thugs. both traps secondaries. both the exact same slotting, power choices with the exception of the thugs having gang war and only aid other from medicine, and the bots having no repair but aid self from medicine.

both have the exact same sets slotted in the exact same places. both have the exact same accolades and the exact same patron.

the bots is not as survivable. the assault bot will sit for long periods doing nothing. i replace probots more often than i replace ANY thugs pets whether i'm farming large maps or fighting av's/eb's. the extra seeker drones matter little fighting an av/eb as the tohitdebuff is almost entirely negated - and i have my own seeker drones anyway.

the difference between 35% and 45% defense (and it's defense to all as thugs/traps, no PSI hole as with /ff) is palpable. ask any /sr or /shield brute how their effective survivability shot through the roof when they softcapped their secondaries.

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when you consider you can add 10% more defense and 20% more resistance from 4 io's in gang war - still ignoring the secondary here - thugs wins out entirely.

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The Def/Res numbers do not address the fact that Proto Bots can heal other bots, without your needing to address the situation personally, and Thugs does not. This isn't just an advantage in battle, it means that if your henchmen take hits, the Proto Bots will typically heal them up before the next battle begins.

And I've never had problems with bubbles wearing off and not being reapplied immediately. At best I would say that you've shown that you can get Bots level defense out of Thugs by spending huge amounts of influence on IOs. And by that same token, Bots by that level will be doing as much damage as Thugs if not more.

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*posting on diff account cause something has hosed the main one for board posting*

actually i did address the healing of the probots - they dont heal too well when dead.

because i cant soft cap them, and their lethal resists alone arent enough - the probots die a lot more often than ANY of my thugs pets.

when you lose one probot you lose half the defense possible on you rother pets and that heal

not to mention that enhancing said heal can cause issues.

no. survivability goes to thugs. since thugs and bots take some form of healing in the secondary or - if not in the secondary - they take aid other the heal is moot. i've never had a problem keeping the thugs alive.

more anecdotal: you fight positron early in the 40's twice. on my bots/traps he had me replacing the probots constantly and one time wiped out the bots/traps entirely. on the thugs traps? the first time i only had to replace the arsonist who for some unknown reason ran outside of the ffg bubble just as he hit his aoe, and the second time i fought him i didn thave to replace a single pet. not one.

you cant softcap the probots unless you are FF AND take and slot manuevers. when talking about the most survivability possible in an mm primary not counting the secondary but considering io sets - thugs wins thanks to gang war taking both pet and pet recharge uniques.

i'm not talking about what's on paper either. i have both. at 50. both with the exact same slotting. i'm replacing probots constantly. i rarely if ever have to replace a thug unless it runs out of the ffg.