I don't have any problems with people using knockback, whether I'm a tank or any other archetype. If a blaster knocks someone back out of my taunt aura, I figure the blaster should be able to finish him off. I do get annoyed though if the blaster uses the cone KB power to knock everyone out of my taunt aura as that could be very very messy. But if they want to single out enemies and juggle them around with KB, then they should go for it. Way too many tanks and Kins seem to think the team should center fully around their playstyle, rather than them adapting to the team.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
I feel bad when I play my Peacebringer, too. But I know how to use my knockback .. knock things toward the Tanker if possible, or just away from a Squishie. I use my 'nuke' when almost everything damaged already, so I'm just knocking away the bodies.
When I'm on as my Earth, Ice or Inv tanks, I WANT crowds around me. When half or more get blown away it just makes things feel like they make fights last longer, not shorter. That to me is 'Less Fun'.
I won't insult the player though. I might ask if they could try knocking things toward me, but if they aren't receptive to that, I'll just leave after the mission with no Fuss. The same if they complain about my KB on my Peacebringer. I'd just much rather find a new team, and not deal with any Drama.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
Personally i would never quit a team for such things. More likely than not i'd probably get a flamefest started on the team instead, and get you to quit if you were really bothering me.. but after i read the OP it seems you were playing true to your AT and "pewpewing" all the same, nobody can fault you for that i guess. GL on future teams!
I am going to slot all of my En/En's attacks with +KB enhancers just to spite the OP
Actually, my biggest complaint against knockback is melee toons who want to gripe about knockback, but consistently bunch the mobs ten, twenty feet away from the walls. You don't like knockback, DO the simple and obvious things to help minimize its impact on your style of play.
When I'm on my mind/kin I tend to ask energy blasters to control the kb... but mainly cause I end up in groups with people who just love to see things fly it seems. If I mass sleep a mob and go in to fulcrum.. just have have them nowhere near me when fulcrum or transfusion or transference goes off... I tend to get annoyed.
Over the course of a mission it gets worse and worse.. specially when all of my transferenaces or transfusions are worthless.
Then again my first high level char ever was a rad/nrg defender and I loved it (never used the aoe's actually cause it was when torrent was knockback too), just gotta learn to work with the team you have (and that goes both ways)
The only big complaint I ever make is when a /energy def spends more time using energy torrent to knock them away from said tanker/scrapper then healing them.
But that's my 2 cents...
My biggest pet peeve in this game is ppl complaining about KB. Sure I understand that it can annoy others from using thier aoe and attacks effectivly but it is just rude imho. If someone is using it wisely, waiting for roots, towards walls, etc... Then I dont see a prob. How can someone be so selfish as to take ur powers/fun away just so they can satisfy thier playstyle? Kind if reminds me of how non farmers want everyone to play thier way or highway. I usually just quit the team bc i cant stand thoes ppl.
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The only big complaint I ever make is when a /energy def spends more time using energy torrent to knock them away from said tanker/scrapper then healing them.
But that's my 2 cents...
[/ QUOTE ] Well on a good team the defender will have a use for energy torrent more often than heals.
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My biggest pet peeve in this game is ppl complaining about KB. Sure I understand that it can annoy others from using thier aoe and attacks effectivly but it is just rude imho. If someone is using it wisely, waiting for roots, towards walls, etc... Then I dont see a prob. How can someone be so selfish as to take ur powers/fun away just so they can satisfy thier playstyle? Kind if reminds me of how non farmers want everyone to play thier way or highway. I usually just quit the team bc i cant stand thoes ppl.
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One of my bigger pet peeves (I have many) is people like you that immediately assume that people such as myself who get angry at people that inhibit the efficiency of a group whether through ignorance or idiocy are completely in the wrong. When I invite someone to a team, it is assumed that that player is competent and is going to contribute on some level (this level varies greatly). I team because it's more entertaining and has a certain higher risk:reward and time:reward ratio than soloing.
If I invite a Tanker, I assume that s/he's going to be capable of getting all but a small amount of the aggro and staying alive through it without much help. I don't assume that the Tanker is going to be lacking half of the powers from his primary, have every power in his secondary, and need help surviving being attacked my more than 3 enemies because he wants to be a Scrapper in Tanker's clothing.
If I invite a Scrapper, I assume that s/he's going to capable of dealing damage and not needing much help staying alive. I don't assume that the Scrapper is going to need the constant attention of every support toon on the team just to get out of a group alive.
If I invite a Blaster, I assume that s/he's going to be able to throw out enough damage to speed the group along. I don't assume that the Blaster will slow down the group's speed because s/he wants to see all of the mobs scattered because it makes him feel more powerful.
Anyone that has a playstyle that actually inhibits team effectiveness is inhibiting my enjoyment of the game. When you join a team, there is a certain assumed level of contribution. If you're not going to meet that level of contribution, whether by being a Tanker without a taunt aura or shields, a Scrapper without mez protection, or a support toon that doesn't have or doesn't use those support powers, let me know before I invite you.
Where Nrg/* blasters are concerned, I assume a bit of group scattering is going to happen, but the Nrg/* blaster should also realize that, now that s/he is on a team, it's his/her responsibility to reduce the negative effects of knockback as much as possible. The game isn't just about you, the player. It's also about everyone you interact with. You've got a responsibility to everyone contribute a certain amount to the success and enjoyment of the group as a whole. If you're playing a shield set, you should apply those shields. If you're playing a Tanker, you should get aggro. If you're playing a Scrapper, you shouldn't rely on everyone else in the group to keep you alive. If you've got knockback, you should make sure that you're not slowing everything down by scattering everything haphazardly.
QR
If I'm running a melee toon and I notice a tendency for KB attacks to hit the group I'm on, I start off by jumping in on the far side (the backside) of the group. That way, the KB attacks just knock them to me. This isn't a cure all, especially if another mob is close by. If you can manage 2 groups relatively safely, jump in the second group and let the KBers knock the first group to you.
Full team herding 
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My biggest pet peeve in this game is ppl complaining about KB. Sure I understand that it can annoy others from using thier aoe and attacks effectivly but it is just rude imho. If someone is using it wisely, waiting for roots, towards walls, etc... Then I dont see a prob. How can someone be so selfish as to take ur powers/fun away just so they can satisfy thier playstyle? Kind if reminds me of how non farmers want everyone to play thier way or highway. I usually just quit the team bc i cant stand thoes ppl.
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In all fairness, This is a two way street. If the KB is effecting my enjoyment of the game then we are at a stale mate. Now, I don't agree with whining about it to the person, I wait till the next appropriate time and kindly bow out.
I believe the reason the whining teds to be one way...towards the KBer, is just the nature of the beast. You want to play KB, I don't want it anywhere near me, but how do I convey that? I can't without sounding like an [censored].
If the KBer is being smart about using it, then you probably won't hear from me....then again, someone will always complain without consideration of THAT particular instance, I can't do anything about those players. All I can do is give KBers a chance to screw it up, and if they do, I can solo. If they don't, then it's a non-issue.
edit: too much censor lol
Lol i guess Umbral is a KB nazi. My whole point was if u PUG, don't magically expect everyone to do exactly how u want everyone to play. If it gets to a point where it is bothering the whole team, then yes, pls tone it down but it usually isnt the case. It is one persone like Umbra who cant use his powers effectivly and gets annoyed at the KB. Some ATs cant help it. Like I said, i gladly quit the team if someone has a prob with my playstyle. Too bad u want everyone to play your perfect way.
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Lol i guess Umbral is a KB nazi. My whole point was if u PUG, don't magically expect everyone to do exactly how u want everyone to play. If it gets to a point where it is bothering the whole team, then yes, pls tone it down but it usually isnt the case. It is one persone like Umbra who cant use his powers effectivly and gets annoyed at the KB. Some ATs cant help it. Like I said, i gladly quit the team if someone has a prob with my playstyle. Too bad u want everyone to play your perfect way.
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Actually, I don't expect everyone to play perfectly. I expect them to play competently. Of course, more often than not, I'm let down because most people barely know how to play, much less know how to play well. The other problem is that most players are horrible at actually figuring out what is actually inhibiting or assisting the group and to what magnitude those contributions are (though this is also related to not knowing how to play well because it also involves knowledge of game mechanics). I've met a number of nrg/* blasters that think they're doing more damage than anyone else because they're knocking their enemies back. I've also met innumerable Empaths that don't use or get Fortitude because they don't think it does much.
The problem I had with your original statement was that you assume that players like myself that expect other people to be effective and competent are detracting from the enjoyment of people like yourself that have less effective/efficient playstyles and don't contribute to anyone's enjoyment whatsoever.
You may not like my play style, but you'd be surprised how many random people have repeatedly asked to run missions with me because I "run a tight ship" (their words). I routinely get tells from characters that I have only run with for a single night asking to join my missions again because they know that the team will be efficient, successful, and enjoyable. I've also got a number of long time players that won't run on PuGs except for mine because they know how I run a team.
I don't ask for perfection. I ask for players to actually be competent and do their job and impeding everyone else's as little as possible. Other people are counting on you in order to have a good time themselves. Just because you want to go crazy with a playstyle that routinely detracts from group and character efficiency (which you are perfectly within your rights to do) doesn't mean that a team should purposefully make exception for you.
There was a saying in my old SG: "If Umbral booted all of the people that bugged him, he'd solo." I can always point out errors in play style or build (including my own; hindsight is 20/20, as they say), but that doesn't mean that I demand that everyone play at the same level I do. I demand a lot from myself, but I demand significantly less from those around me.
Ok i hate to admit it but teams that do thier jobs steamroll through mobs. That i totally agree. But heck, when i PUG, i dont expect a steamroll team. I expect that someone will wipe and eventually make our team wipe bc they wiped. That is my experience. I dont complain about blind invites, speedboost, Tanks not spamming Taunt, etc...I adapt to the team chemistry. If a scrapper thinks hes a tank and dies every mob, then i will probably try to save him by using more CC powers to help. If a tank doesnt taunt, then i limit some attacks until someone else gets agro. If there is a PB or NRG on team, i prepare and alter my play to make KB work. If it bothers me that much, then i will /quit team
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The other annoying part about KB is that not everyone pays attention and you'll get a mob that gets KBed near another pack and someone runs over to kill it, grabs the other pack and then all hell breaks loose.
[/ QUOTE ] I love it when that happens. I find chaos enjoyable.
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Yep, that's what I call fun times. A herd and steamroll destroy team gets boring quick. Guess I've been here long enough that I'm never in a race to get to 50 anymore. A team being "perfectly efficient" so I get the best xp/min possible is the last concern I have.
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Lol i guess Umbral is a KB nazi. My whole point was if u PUG, don't magically expect everyone to do exactly how u want everyone to play. If it gets to a point where it is bothering the whole team, then yes, pls tone it down but it usually isnt the case. It is one persone like Umbra who cant use his powers effectivly and gets annoyed at the KB. Some ATs cant help it. Like I said, i gladly quit the team if someone has a prob with my playstyle. Too bad u want everyone to play your perfect way.
[/ QUOTE ] I don't think that is what he was saying. IMO his post seemed reasonable. I think he was saying that KB is expected and OK, but uncontrolled KB is the problem.
For example, if you pick out a boss and go to town on it and knock it all over the place and kill it then that is fine. But if the mob is tightly packed and you lead off with you cone power, that isn't ok. To me that is reasonable.
If someone else had a power that say provided the team with some mitigation but made your blasts do half dmg, would you ask them not to use it?
KB is kind of like that from the perspective of anyone who uses aoe or melee powers. That's a fairly long list which includes most scrappers, tankers, many blasters, defenders and controllers.
When one person on a team takes a big chunk of efficiency away from the other seven... well, it's fair to ask whether it's worth having that person on the team. When you're the one, you need to be able to read the situation and understand that just because a button is on your power tray, that doesn't mean it has to be mashed every time it lights up. A little restraint goes a long way, less is more, etc etc.
I say this having played the mother of all knockback combos--a storm/energy defender--realizing that in most ordinary situations I'm not doing anyone, myself included, any favors by slowing the team down with unnecessary scatter.
The only problem I have with knockback is when someone opens with an AOE knockback power as I try to open a fight with Soul Drain on my DM/SR scrapper. Other than that, I can deal with it.
Umbral, you invite someone to a team, and very reasonably expect that person to adapt the use of their powers to the needs of the team. Do you not, likewise, expect the team to adapt their playstyle to the collective abilities of all the people on the team? If you invite a storm defender, the team plays one way. If you invite a radiation defender, the team plays another. It's not a matter of the defender saying, "ok, here's what defenders do on teams, so I've got to make my powers fit this mold." The exact same holds for blasters, tankers, and any other AT in the game.
Knockback is a tool. If you invite an energy blaster, you have that tool available. EXPECT knockback, and make plans to put it to the team's advantage. It is not up to the blaster and the blaster alone to attempt to negate an inherent function of their powerset, nor is it useful for the blaster to try.
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Umbral, you invite someone to a team, and very reasonably expect that person to adapt the use of their powers to the needs of the team. Do you not, likewise, expect the team to adapt their playstyle to the collective abilities of all the people on the team? If you invite a storm defender, the team plays one way. If you invite a radiation defender, the team plays another. It's not a matter of the defender saying, "ok, here's what defenders do on teams, so I've got to make my powers fit this mold." The exact same holds for blasters, tankers, and any other AT in the game.
Knockback is a tool. If you invite an energy blaster, you have that tool available. EXPECT knockback, and make plans to put it to the team's advantage. It is not up to the blaster and the blaster alone to attempt to negate an inherent function of their powerset, nor is it useful for the blaster to try.
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Oh, I realize that and try to do so at every opportunity, but it's also much easier to get 1 person to change to account for the play style and capability of the other 7 people in the group than have the 7 people in the group change their play style for a single person. But there are numerous ways that the team could, itself, alter their playstyles to account for the heavy use of KB: the Tanker can herd against the wall, Controllers can use -KB immobs, and Scrappers can stand on the opposite side of the mob than the KB user. Most of the time, if I know that there is a KB heavy character that loves using them, I tell people to do so. However, it's simply easier a vast majority of the time to tell the Blaster to change his own play style to account for the capabilities and function of the team, especially since it's less work for the team overall (Storm defenders are a completely different beast to deal with).
I do enough damage with my KB power that if someone complains, I can float up out of range and let them try to do as much damage. Seriously, I can take a majority of a mobs health in half with a good shot. Actually, I don' recall anyone ever complaining about it to me.
As long as you're expecting reasonable changes -- wait for the controller get the immob in place, let the tanker use the walls, fire from overhead. Some people see a team with no controller, in an environment with no walls, and the blaster can't GET overhead and just figure the blaster needs to stop blasting.
I have to weigh in here on the controlled vs. uncontrolled KB topic:
Controlled KB is rarely, if ever, a problem on any team I've ever been on.
Uncontrolled KB is a major PITA. AoE damage toons can't use their powers effectively, Controllers/AoE debuffers can't use their powers to full effect, and aggro control becomes difficult at best and nigh impossible at worst, as uncontrolled KB can knock mobs into previously not-aggro'd spawns.
Overall in most cases it makes for a less efficient team that has to spread out in order to take out mobs scattered by usually just one player.
In my years playing this game, the only time KB has been uncontrolled on teams is by newer players who don't understand the mechanics of teaming. I've played with /SS Tankers who run up to a spawn and hit Hand Clap, /Elec Blasters who run up to a spawn and hit Lightning Clap... in both cases before any aggro control can be established, debuffs applied, control exerted, etc...
Conversely, on the Controlled KB front, I've played with Sonic/ Defenders who were excellent about using Shockwave to knock spawns into a wall or corner to pile them up, PB's who were careful to NOT use Solar Flare in the middle of large spawns, and Herdicane'ers/Repulsion Field'ers who did a great job of piling mobs up together.
So:
Uncontrolled KB==suckage.
Controlled KB == good times
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*shrug*
I have a very simple rule that I follow on my Energy/Energy Blaster, that I have followed since the start. If I knock it back, it's my problem. It's also usually dead before the second bounce, but whatever, neh?
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Exactly, this is how I play mine too, but there are too many people that just see orange numbers from energy torrent and use it at every opportunity. Again, using AoE KB from above, or towards a wall rather than along it in the case of cones can mitigate the annoyance.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba