hello fury_flechette, I remember who you were, just quit the game(if you came back for pvp) or just go pve
let me sum up pvp in two words
damage spam
lulz. I think it makes a bit of sense to me. I do agree with some of the things you've had said though. 2 stands out to me. 3 stands out to me. Most of all, I agree with #1. #4 is something I don't bother with much. *MY* Flavor of The Month character is ice/ice Corruptor... If things get too sticky in RV, I go to a lower level zone where I dominate the competition. I don't plan on changing AT/Powersets. It's fun if it sucks or wins. I do see where concern exists for #4 though. Good post.
Basically they need to be able to introduce new players to PVP some way given how powers work differently in PVP compared to PVE.
Welcome back 
, unfortunately those of us who have being playing have seen what your referring to, and it's sad that you came back from all those issues ago and recognized this and the devs act like it ain't the truth. In answer to you question about why don't they bring this to pve, the answer is it would be a outcry of flames so GREaT that it would melt BaBs gloves.
They would be outraged like most pvp'rs, they said these changes was for folk like yourself, but in your own admission you think the changes are silly, unfounded, overbearing, not fun, and don't seem well thought out. Alot of us feel the same, it makes no sense that flurry is like the strongest attack on the game, it makes no sense that everyone can hold everyone with out effort, even WP tanks running sow ain't safe.
It makes no sense that support toons only work supporting AT's like tanks, i just wish they would have used the pvp wish list, instead of freelancing these changes with using the perspective of ppl that actually pvp'd. I have no knowledge of rockets what so ever, so i guess I'd be the perfect candidate to design new rockets using the devs philosophy on pvp (i'll wait on NASA's call)
Also you didn't know this since your new, coming back from so long but we have been crying about this since it was in it's closed beta form. And it's been a new thread almost every few days since i13 open beta, even the devs made a negative thread and we voiced our disliking of this, and you coming back from so long making this thread maybe they will pay you some mind. Since your not as tainted as us.
The funny thing is, even though you seem like one of the whiners that got the changes made in the first place, you're probably still bad..------Macskull on Crop_of_shaolin
http://ravens-wins.mybrute.com
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hello fury_flechette, I remember who you were, just quit the game(if you came back for pvp) or just go pve
let me sum up pvp in two words
damage spam
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I'm going to take your advice to heart. I'll probably get a few characters IO'ed, chat with SG mates and keep it pretty casual. PvP is nuts in this game.
Reading the responses, it looks like I'm a number of issues too late and making the same observations/complaints that you all have made already. Sad it fell on deaf ears.
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Welcome back , unfortunately those of us who have being playing have seen what your referring to, and it's sad that you came back from all those issues ago and recognized this and the devs act like it ain't the truth. In answer to you question about why don't they bring this to pve, the answer is it would be a outcry of flames so GREaT that it would melt BaBs gloves.
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I think your point on this is very well taken. The devs make radical changes to powers in PvP causing powers that are laughable in PvE to become extremely powerful and then they don't apply consistency to it and only make it a PvP change.
If you're going to normalize damage to activation and animation times, then do it on both sides, not just PvP. The way it is right now, it's bizarre taking what would be considered a good PvE build (at least from a power choice perspective) and taking it into PvP and have everything function completely in ways you don't expect.
i think there was like 30+ pages on one thread of negative feedback bascially saying everything you layed out there. There was plenty of other threads besides.
The whole thing has left a very bitter taste. The pvp changes were handled so poorly.
Shenanigans
LotD - JaL - POWT/SMD - SoCo - AJs
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... they just didn't think things through.
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In a nutshell...
Also, even lighthouse spoke out about it before he quit, it's kinda like you give someone a precise map to a treasure(the pvp wish list) And instead of atleast trying the map 1st, the digger starts his expedition like 100 miles from the actual treasure site. And the digger never dug for treasure before.
These changes are not well thought out, and with even more threads popping up in discontent maybe they will finally see it. It's another casual play that made a thread wondering why his tank is held through everything. He figured he'd try his tank in pvp and was hit with the silly mez resist alot of us don't like, and is like why don't my toon perform here like it does in pve?
They claim to have made these changes for the casual guy, but they have alienated yall way more than us they do it all the time. Just think, how hard would it be for a person that pvps 100% of his game time to adjust to a change, versus someone who is used to the way their toon performs in the pve world?
The answer is, it will make you realize why you don't pvp in the first place, leave and probably not return. And if they had thought this through instead of rushing this change in to beat a build deadline, just to say we changed things, we'd all be better off. They put this stuff in closed beta and we all renounced it and gave a forecast of what would happen. They ignored us ran with it, lost players, didn't gain new ones, hell even lighthouse spoke out before quitting.
Pray they finally realize these mistakes and at the very least give us a arena option to have a i12 build. No heal decay, no DR, no mez resist, inspirations work like bf's, support toons making a comeback, NO MOVEMENT SUPPRESSION, just a workable pvp.Sure it had it's flaws but atleast it was fun for most and it made sense.
The funny thing is, even though you seem like one of the whiners that got the changes made in the first place, you're probably still bad..------Macskull on Crop_of_shaolin
http://ravens-wins.mybrute.com
I disagree with a complete 'no movement supression' - There needs to be some advantage to running SR, taking swift/hurdle, or bringing a kin along. i12 supression was perfect the way it is.
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Dr. Pepper and Jack Daniels is really good. If you are 21+ I'd recommend it as way to make PvP make more sense.
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
From the perspective of someone who has PvP'd across many MMOs much more PvP-focused than this one, PvP in this game was broken before and it is broken now. They just exchanged one set of problems for different ones. Last time I subbed to this game was about a year ago, I remember going on the forums asking for a good melee build for PvP and the general response was "LoLmelee". With movement and slows in the state that it was before it was just overkill, go ranged or go home. So they nerfed slows to oblivion along with a lot of movement in general, and melee dominates now.
I'm not really sure they can ever balance PvP in this game because it is inherently broken, because it wasn't a part of the equation right from the beginning. I wasn't around in this game's first days but from what I understand, there was no PvP at all until CoV was released. None. Zero. There is the root of the problem right there. The devs simply don't give a damn about PvP, it's not what they're passionate about, and they obviously don't have much experience with it. I'm really not sure what they could do at this point to fix it and I'll leave that up to people more knowledgeable about this particular game than I.
some melee builds could work, it wasn't all lolmelee(kaiserin was a beast), with a few tweaks to some sets and how melee operated(they could've just made melee put the opponent in suppression) they could've made all melee work but I guess they just would just rather wreck everything fun instead.
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I'm not really sure they can ever balance PvP in this game because it is inherently broken, because it wasn't a part of the equation right from the beginning. I wasn't around in this game's first days but from what I understand, there was no PvP at all until CoV was released. None. Zero. There is the root of the problem right there. The devs simply don't give a damn about PvP, it's not what they're passionate about, and they obviously don't have much experience with it. I'm really not sure what they could do at this point to fix it and I'll leave that up to people more knowledgeable about this particular game than I.
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Actually, that's not correct. PvP pre-dates CoV by a couple of issues I think. It is correct to say there was no zone PvP before CoV, but the arena preceded that.
Also, if you read the long past dev interviews (there's even a video by Jack Emmert about this), PvP was actually conceptualized for this game from the very beginning. However, it's clear to me that the original dev team had so many difficulties in even getting the PvE aspects correct that such an assertion, while technically correct, is really a moot point.
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from what I understand, there was no PvP at all until CoV was released. None. Zero.
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Actually, Arena was in issue 4, two issues before CoV came out
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Welcome back FF! You helped this noob (me) learn to PvP better and I used one of your /devices build on a toon built for Sirens. We also worked together in the PvPEC for a time!
Having expressed my gratitude for all your inspiration, I must confess that it was all for naught since after 13 hit, I quit PvPing (and the PvPEC) like so many others.
Arc 185502: Who Killed Snow Globe? a mini mystery Put together the clues to solve the case!
Arc 22832: And Hell Hath No Fury (extreme)
Will you be the key to the Knives of Artemis' survival? or the instrument of their destruction?
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I disagree with a complete 'no movement supression' - There needs to be some advantage to running SR, taking swift/hurdle, or bringing a kin along. i12 supression was perfect the way it is.
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It was certainly pretty close to ideal and much better than now.
I'd have slapped an unresistable movement suppression on melee range attacks from the armored AT's (brutes, tanks, scraps, not stalkers tho) and combined with the -range of taunt would have called it a day.
Melee was always an excellent choice for zone pvp, what you gave up in killing power you gained back in being unkillable.
The -range and ability to impede movement of people even buffed by kins possibly would have given them a team role as well.
PvP totally sucks [censored] now. It's pointless after all the changes now.
It isn't fun, feels very slow, like your constantly running in molasses and doesn't make any sense now.
To succeed now, you need to take attacks that you never would in PvE, have phase, hibernoob to live and support toons are completely useless. PvP now is all about who's tier 9 is up and when.
GG Devs. You [censored] up what was actually exciting PvP.
[censored].
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Dr. Pepper and Jack Daniels is really good.
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My in-laws swear by this. Is this strange mix a Kansas thing?
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From the perspective of someone who has PvP'd across many MMOs much more PvP-focused than this one, PvP in this game was broken before and it is broken now. They just exchanged one set of problems for different ones. Last time I subbed to this game was about a year ago, I remember going on the forums asking for a good melee build for PvP and the general response was "LoLmelee". With movement and slows in the state that it was before it was just overkill, go ranged or go home. So they nerfed slows to oblivion along with a lot of movement in general, and melee dominates now.
I'm not really sure they can ever balance PvP in this game because it is inherently broken, because it wasn't a part of the equation right from the beginning. I wasn't around in this game's first days but from what I understand, there was no PvP at all until CoV was released. None. Zero. There is the root of the problem right there. The devs simply don't give a damn about PvP, it's not what they're passionate about, and they obviously don't have much experience with it. I'm really not sure what they could do at this point to fix it and I'll leave that up to people more knowledgeable about this particular game than I.
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It was brought in the arenas starting I4 a complete and utter failure it was a shoehorn attempt to make pvp work. This was before COV and ED and global reduction. Talk about broken it was even worse back then with COF use to rule in PVE because of the 95% acc on it at the time and mage 3 fear and no fear resistance for most builds in those days. Spectral terror was also another one etc.
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
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<QR>
Dr. Pepper and Jack Daniels is really good.
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My in-laws swear by this. Is this strange mix a Kansas thing?
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Never been to Kansas.
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
I can make pvp interesting right away.
1. Allow respecs to not only respec your power but your power set, so that you dont have to completely reroll to go from Dark/Dark to EM/regen for instance.
2. Allow villains to go into hero zones and heroes to go into villain zones, make everything (almost) destroyable. Going into an enemy zone (like lets say Atlas City) flags you to all the heroes playing there. Thus players can grind unmolested, but if they want to stop nefarious villains from blowing up cars and objects , they have to stop them.
3. Allow purchaseable respecs so its easier to do- either through merits or soloable quests.
4. Normalize power sets by allowing full access to both by both factions- this may be happening in City of Rogues
5. Put in a pvp ranking system and gear sets that help you uniquely in PVP, such as a reduction in travel suppression. etc
Just my two cents.
A couple of weeks ago, I went in for my first foray into PvP since, oh, issue 8. I took a long hiatus from this game, and came back about a month ago. I understood that in between the time I left and the time I came back, the devs "balanced" PvP.
I digested some of the changes from the patch notes and from some experimentation on my own. I understand what they were trying to do, but come away with the impression that they just didn't think things through. I have no opinion negative or positive about heal decay, travel suppression, differing values of damage powers in pvp, diminishing returns, etc. Honestly, I'm still trying to make sense of most of it.
However, here are some things I don't understand:
1. Powers should behave reasonably similarly in PvP and PvE. I've always expected some sort of kludge in regards to powers in PvP (i.e., toggle drops, mez suppression), but with post issue 12 changes, almost nothing works the same in PvP than in PvE. Almost everything has differences. Heals decay, mez protection isn't protection, almost everything suppress travel powers. This is just bad design.
2. Power value differences between PvE and PvP are too extreme. I tried ripper on my spines scrapper and was underwhelmed about how little it seemed to do. I was advised, in earnest, that I spec into barb swipe to seriously increase my damage output. Barb swipe is considered a garbage power in PvE, but in PvP, it is now elevated into one of the strongest attacks in the game. Note that ripper is a high damage power in its description while barb swipe is considered minor.
I get that the devs are trying to normalize damage with activation times. If that's the case, then that should've been carried over to the PvE game too. That would have at least made things consistent.
3. Support types seem absolutely useless. Dimishing returns and heal decay means that heals, force field bubbles, resistance buffs are all worth less. This is in direct contrast to the PvE game where the synergies of support ATs mesh well with those that do damage. I am dismayed to see that one of the underlying philosophies that makes this game fun in PvE has been pretty much cast aside in PvP.
4. I'm pretty tired of playing whack-a-mole of keeping up with the latest FOTM build in PvP. Apparently, now defense types are out of favor and new dominant builds have emerged yet again. In order to keep up with what works best with the latest rule changes, do I have to continually farm and PL new characters? After a while, this gets old fast.
I'm not sure what the vision the devs have for PvP in this game. It comes across as one poorly implemented kludge after another, even if that wasn't their intention. The biggest irony to me of this whole thing is that with the extreme differences in power stats from PvE to PvP, the casual player is left out in the cold more than ever.
I don't think it should take research into City of Data to determine what's a good power in PvP. A power that's good in PvE *should* be good in PvP. However, in trying to come up with a good build for PvP, that's what you have to do because not only are the in game descriptions are misleading but everything works differently.
And the inconsistency and the rapid change of rules seem to work against any but the most dedicated players who are willing to keep up with the changes.
Bottom line: bad design, poor and inconsistent implementation, rules that are in a constant state of flux = PvP I don't want to play.