Comparison of Kheldian (Dwarf) to Tanker (SD/Fire)

Im looking for some information and opinions on the comparison of a Dwarf Form Warshade to a Shield Defense/Fire Melee Tanker. What I am looking to find out is which toon I should focus on for my next project. I have gathered quite a bit of information (builds, slotting, playstyles) for both of the toons but now its time to make a decision.

A little info about my goals for the toon as well as the amount I plan on investing into it: This will be my new "main" on hero side and therefore I will be investing as much as needed to completely IO/Purple this toon. My inf reserves are quite high (a tad under 900 million at the moment) and I generate income very quickly through farming and utilizing the Market. I am looking for a toon that is Melee, is able to "Tank" and hold aggro in even the most difficult teams and situations, but also can sustain a firm attack chain with enough damage to feel useful on large AoE oriented Teams or soloing large +2-+3 spawns for farming. As I said, this will be my new main hero side toon and therefore should be able to farm efficiently as well as contribute to large teams for TFs and the MA.

Also of note, this will NOT be a Triform or Nova based Warshade. The main playstyle will be in Dwarf form (using the human form for buffs/pets as needed) and the IO investment and build will be focusing on making this Dwarf a melee monster. It will be played as a Tanker/Scrapper/Brute, all the time.

With that being said, I like both of the toons and have been alternating my play time between them. Sadly, my time has been very limited lately and therefore my comparison of the two toons is somewhat lacking. I have yet to push past level 30 on either toon, much less been able to judge how they compare at 50 with fully slotted IOs.

This is where I need your help, if you have the experience to comment honestly on either toon. I want to know everyones opinion concerning which toon has better damage mitigation, firmer aggro management, and better damage (aoe and single target, mainly focused on AoE potential though).

I have a feeling most replies will say that the Tanker is better at aggro management, and I would agree due to Gauntlet and lack of a taunt component for the Dwarf Wardshade AoE.

I also have a feeling that most people will assert that the Tanker has better mitigation (capped defense with some resists) compared to the Kheldian which has capped resists. I will say that the build I am using for my Dwarf Warshade ends up with not only capped resists but also 30+% defense to all positions, which really muddies that argument.

The MAIN question I need answered is which is better for overall damage. It is very hard to judge, even when using the dps calculations within Mids. The Dwarf will have his damage potential completely changed based on the two self buffs available so often, the multiple pets contributing to damage, and also the added damage potential that comes from their inherent. The Tanks damage potential with Shield Charge, AAO, Combustion, and Fire Sword Circle is somewhat static outside of focusing on recharge values to maintain Build Up as much as possible.

So lets hear it: Which toon do YOU think is "better"? Which one would YOU focus on and invest 500+ million into? Is the damage mitigation, aggro management, and damage potential as close as I think or am I mistaken? Thanks in advance for all your replies. I am ready to focus on this project heavily and need to make sure I am choosing the best option considering the amount I will be spending on it.

Honestly?

The straight-up tanker will probably end up better overall, especially in the damage department, just from the increased volume of options available to it that aren't available to a Warshade. You can certainly dual-form (which is what it's sounding like you're aiming for) and be successful, but I'd have to say that the Shield/Fire tank will still pull ahead in both ease of use and overall benefit.

Three AoEs vs. One AoE (albeit one with a damage buff), Four ST damage effects (one DoT) vs. three (one with a heal), the fact that Dwarf Form only benefits from click-effect buffs while the Tanker isn't similarly limited, the greater number of pool power options available (in that the Tanker can also take Tough/Weave to increase survivability further)...

Not saying that the Warshade can't be a powerful contender, but it's a lot trickier to manage.

There is no comparison

I ran a PB to 50 and wouldnt waste my time on the dwarf- in fact he's already deleted

I know WS are a whole other vegetable but still...

I have a 50 SD/SS and I'm VERY happy with him in all aspects you ask about including dmg

I have a sgmate with a SD/Fire that he built for farming and I have to say I was amazed at what he could do unbuffed

It was the reason I built mine

I love my Khelds. They're some of my favourite characters to play, hands down. Warshades especially.

That said... why are you even seriously contemplating a warshade for this?

My reasoning -
The warshade is very... well, variable. And a lot of those variables are things out of your control - how many enemies (live or dead) are around, how long is the fight... and don't forget, you're dropping out of Dwarf to hit those human form buffs. And that some of your other buffs are going to vary depending on who's on your team.

The tank's going to have everything available to him, all the time (recharge debuffs and such aside.) The Warshade will require switching forms - and there are times you're not going to want to come out of Dwarf because of whatever you're facing.

The Warshade? If you get into a situation where you're facing a single tough AV, for instance, and the fight is dragging on - or you've had to be rezzed - you may not be able to get much of a buff, you'll have nothing to draw essences from and the like.

For the situation you're describing overall... my gut reaction is to say "take the tank."

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Comparing PBs to Warshades is like comparing Fortunatas to Bane Spiders.

Fruit to Grain. Totally different things, and most people recommend that if you're going to Dual-Form a Human/Dwarf, that Warshade is probably the one you want to look at doing it with. Bright Dwarf is ridiculously underpowered compared to Dark Dwarf, especially in the damage output area, and further in the mitigation area (as it can't benefit from Light Form like Dark Dwarf can from Eclipse).

I still think I'd rather see a Tank actually heading things up then a Warshade, though, unless I knew them in a more personal fashion. It's easier for me to assume the tank (or scranker in this case from the sounds of it) knows what they're doing then to assume a generalist AT can back up his claims. :/

There really is no comparison. Not because one is so much better then the other, but because they are both so different.

My Warshade didn't start as a farming too, but through a couple respecs, became able to do 200+ damage with each Dwarf Mire, every 10 seconds. Not counting the fire damage Proc. And that's just Dwarf by itself, not using Human form for anything other then Eclipse (just to cap off my Resistance) and Human Mire (for 30 seconds of buffed damage and accuracy, good for starting off).

I also have an SD/SS Tanker, and while I love both, I like my WS just a little more. It fits my play style, honestly.

So I suggest picking the one that would be more enjoyable. Other then that, I can't think of a reason to do both?

Thanks for the input so far!

The input is pretty much what I expected but alot more heavily leaning towards the Tanker than I had hoped. I was hoping to build a unique toon and invest lots of inf into it, the Dwarf WS with 30+% positional defense to all is exactly that. While the SD/Fire will be alot cheaper to build but is also alot more common.

The reasons behind creating and focusing on the Dwarf WS are numerous, only later did I become interested in the SD/Fire Tanker.

With the WS, I love the way Dwarf form Looks and Operates. The playstyle is MUCH more involved, due to switching forms for buffs and pets, while still staying alive and maintaing aggro and good damage. I have played tons of Scrappers/Tanks/Brutes, and not a single one requires much thought or skill (in my opinion). Dwarf WS seems to be a much more active and invloved toon where i can shine based on my "skill" as a player, and the quality of my build, moreso than other melee toons.

Another key factor is that the build I pulled together, with the help of a very knowledgable WS player, is ridiculously good. Having Capped Resists as well as over 30% defense to all positions is very close to Granite survivability, if not better depending on the particular Granite AT/Build used. It requires heavy inf investment but the payoff is phenomenal and I will end up with a very unique toon that not many people (if any) have or can afford. When you add in the Kheldian inherent buffs, the toon will be off the charts!

The final reason, is because I also have a nicely IOd PB, that is Human form mainly and I enjoy Kheldians a great deal. I thought it would be cool to have a second Kheldian of the other variety that out performs most other toons.

I am currently leaning towards the Tanker, due to the responses so far. It will be cheaper overall (though i have enough inf that this factor isnt a very big deal) and everyone seems to think it will outperform the Dwarf WS despite the fantastic build I plan on using. Still no final decision yet, I will keep looking for more opinions from everyone.

Keep the comments coming! Yall are making my decision more informed with every post.

I've got a PB (sry my ws is only lvl 6). He's a dual build, one build is a strict nova/dwarf build, who is io'd out. The second build is the human form, which is tons of fun.

My human form (uber destructive) isn't all the way io'd out yet, but it's getting there. Remember there's a reason why Khelds are called EPIC.

That said when i'm dwarf form I can tank circles around most tanks (with the exception of stone/ tanks), this may be due to the fact that most tanks nowadays are noobs.

I also have a sd/dm tank, who has high damage output and can keep aggro pretty well, he's only got generic io's on him though.

With that said i'd say, if u want to play something fun, go with the ws.

If you want to go with something that is suppose to built for tanking go for the tank.

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I've got a PB (sry my ws is only lvl 6). He's a dual build, one build is a strict nova/dwarf build, who is io'd out. The second build is the human form, which is tons of fun.

My human form (uber destructive) isn't all the way io'd out yet, but it's getting there. Remember there's a reason why Khelds are called EPIC.

That said when i'm dwarf form I can tank circles around most tanks (with the exception of stone/ tanks), this may be due to the fact that most tanks nowadays are noobs.

I also have a sd/dm tank, who has high damage output and can keep aggro pretty well, he's only got generic io's on him though.

With that said i'd say, if u want to play something fun, go with the ws.

If you want to go with something that is suppose to built for tanking go for the tank.

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Yeah, one thing noticably different about PB Dwarf and WS Dwarf is that PBs have a taunt component built into their AoE. WS Dwarfs do not and therefore have to utilize Antagonize more often to maintain aggro on large spawns.

Regarding the tanking ability of Kheldian Dwarf Forms; they can Tank very well. My WS is just under 30 at the moment and i regularly Tank for 8 player groups against +3s and hold aggro fine. Sometimes high damage Scrappers can pull a mob or two off of me but for the most part everything stays on me. At this point his resists are hovering around 60% base, not counting any bonus from the inherent. His defense value is still sitting low (a measly 3% from the Steadfast Unique) and it helps to have a debuffer or healer backing me up on 8 man teams to deal with the Alpha.

Thats yet another check mark in the WS Dwarf column; currently he is 13 levels higher than my SD/Fire Tank. They are both still using just Common IOs. I wont invest in their Sets until 47+, outside of the uniques such as Procs, Numina, Miracle, etc.

I have to agree, the Dwarf Form Warshade will do a lot more damage than just being a tank, and you might actually be better than the Fire Tanker on a large team, but a Warshade is not really a Tanker. It's strength, even if you don't take Nova, comes from what it can do it its human form. If you've decided from the start that you're not going to drop back to human and blast, you're really not utilizing the Warshade's flexibility.

It might still be a lot of fun, but in the long run the Tanker will tank better.

A Kheldian Dwarf is a mini-character with very limited powers on its own and has to rely on team-buffs, Human-form click-powers and Inspirations to accomplish what by-design comes naturally to the Tanker AT.

Even if you build a PB based around Dwarf form, with heavy IO set-bonuses and all, I still think a natural Tank build (probably no matter what power-sets you choose) would be more versatile and easier to manage in performing tanking duties.

That said, tanking is a lot easier for a PB than a WS and tanking as a PB is a lot more stressful, and fun, for an All-Kheldian team than a mixed AT team.

My human PB is close to 50 so last night I ran with a team doing Invincible missions in PI. One of the members happened to be a WS with Dwarf and he tanked for us and did a great job. My PB can layout some quick, heavy damage so I would occasionally steal a mob but that tends to happen when I team with various Tanks anyway.

I think with the amount you are willing to invest either AT will work out really, really well so it comes down to a personal choice.

I've tanked for TFs on my WS Dwarf. It's ok, but personally, I'd feel better with a Tank. My peeves with the WS Dwarf are:

- Not enough attacks for a no-pause attack chain. I even slotted Antagonize with a Proc, but there are times I'm just twittling my thumbs waiting for anything to recharge.

- Antagonize's taunt is weak. I don't have it fully slotted yet (only +40% value boost), but it seems the equivalent of clearing my throat for all the attention I'm holding.

Antagonize is only slightly weaker than Taunt (35s vs. 41s duration PvE, 8.75s vs. 1.25s PvP), but the main problem is that it isn't autohit like Taunt is.

One other thing I am remind of now that I've played my Warshade some more recently, the lobster form is too bulky and slow. I takes up way more space than I'm used to since I usually play slim characters. My camera is all screwed up in caves and sometimes I can't even see foes in front of me even when surrounded. The lumbering, unenhanceable jog is also annoying. I haven't played a Stone tank yet, but I guess if you had, you might be used to it. It annoys me that it has me gravitating to Set Bonuses for run/movement speed when I could use something "better".

I'll reiterate what some of the other posters have said. If you're looking to be a dedicated tank, roll the Tanker.

Kheldians (Both PB's and Warshades) are hybrid ATs. Their strength comes from being able to fill many different rolls. The tradeoff for that flexibility is that their overall performance in any given roll isn't as high as an AT that specializes in a particular role.

While I advocate everyone playing their toons however they choose, trying to use a hybrid to get around the limitations of a specialist is more likely to leave you dissapointed than fulfill your ideas.

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I've tanked for TFs on my WS Dwarf. It's ok, but personally, I'd feel better with a Tank. My peeves with the WS Dwarf are:

- Not enough attacks for a no-pause attack chain. I even slotted Antagonize with a Proc, but there are times I'm just twittling my thumbs waiting for anything to recharge.

- Antagonize's taunt is weak. I don't have it fully slotted yet (only +40% value boost), but it seems the equivalent of clearing my throat for all the attention I'm holding.

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My WS has also "tanked" for a couple of TFs - including Manticore's, Numina's, and the ITF (although my Fortunata did it better on the ITF) - using Dwarf and Eclipse, and can put out quite a bit of damage in the meantime.

As for the no-pause attack chain in Dwarf... I didn't have any problems with it, and I don't have all that much global recharge slotted. I just went with Crushing Impacts and most of an Obliteration set for Dwarf, and frankenslotting the pre-buff siphon life clone. Sure I don't get double-stacked Dwarf Mire, but with Sunless I can self-cap damage and if you can't self-cap resistance with Eclipse you're not even trying.

I'll agree about the taunt being weak, though, and I'll echo that a Tanker is going to have an easier time with everything.

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I will be investing as much as needed to completely IO/Purple this toon. My inf reserves are quite high (a tad under 900 million at the moment)

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By saying "completely purple this toon" I assume you mean to slot 5 purple sets. You're going to need at least triple what you have now, probably more. You may already know this, but I figured I could save you a little disappointment in case you don't. More to the point, I would choose the tanker. I'm a little biased by the fact that I have a (40ish?) Sd/Fire tanker, and I'm absolutely in love with it.

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toon that is Melee, is able to "Tank" and hold aggro in even the most difficult teams and situations, but also can sustain a firm attack chain with enough damage to feel useful on large AoE oriented Teams or soloing large +2-+3 spawns for farming.


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If you weren't serious, it's kinda comical to even put a WS Dwarf as a real contender for your requirements. Kheld's Dwarf Forms have poor aggro control, nothing spectacular as far as damage output and on large AOE farm teams a fully eclipsed double mired Dark nova + 3 pets is your AOE lawnmower. Going to suggest you play the toon first and see what a Kheld offers-in game.

One thing to consider is that even though you're planning on 30% positional defenses, will you have any defense debuff resistance? (Not that familiar with ws dwarf) Or will a single shot from a rularuu eyeball take it all away?

That said, you seem to really like the WS idea better. So just go with it.