but...but...but scrappers and brutes can do it!!!
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And since AV's are meant to be team content anyway, the fact that only some combos can and many can't should be telling.
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See, I spent all morning trying to explain this to someone who felt soloing AVs was their privilage for picking the "right" combos and AT and that changing AVs in anyway was taking something away he was entitled to, and giving myself a headache in the process.
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My only point was baseline balancing shouldn't be soloing AV's.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
[ QUOTE ]
but...but...but scrappers and brutes can do it!!!
[/ QUOTE ]And they shouldn't be able to, either. Team content should be content that needs a team.
On the other hand, the babies have their bottle, and such a fuss would be kicked up if they were made to play fair.
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On the other hand, the babies have their bottle, and such a fuss would be kicked up if they were made to play fair.
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Maybe Tankers should get their bottle too. You know, for doing the job nobody wants to. Like Mr. Roboto?
Also I find it slightly amusing Tankers can't solo AVs like some other ATs because their damage is too low... and their damage is so low because they tank for the other ATs... ostensibly so those ATs can do things like take on AVs... except when they're soloing the AVs...
And I want to point out that Tank-omination really wouldn't help Tankers solo AVs.
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Being awesome is its own reward.
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Maybe Tankers should get their bottle too. You know, for doing the job nobody wants to.
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Except D3 Defenders... and Tankerminds... and some Scrappers... and some Controllers... and many Brutes... and dwarf form Kheldians...
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Maybe Tankers should get their bottle too. You know, for doing the job nobody wants to.
[/ QUOTE ]
Except D3 Defenders... and Tankerminds... and some Scrappers... and some Controllers... and many Brutes... and dwarf form Kheldians...
[/ QUOTE ]
And most don't do it nearly as well....
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
Ok, I didn't mean to stir up that hornet's nest.
OBVIOUSLY, AVs are group content. The point I was making is that in the comics the Tanker-types tend to go toe to toe with the big guns. That doesn't mean standing there for eternity unable to affect them, it means having the theoretical hope of eventually defeating them. My comments were aimed at the goal of emulating this to some better degree than is presently the case.
However, you may not have noticed that I put the word PROBLEM in quotes. I did that specifically because it's NOT a problem that people can't solo AVs. They're not supposed to be able to. AVs are designed as group content. That SOME builds can do it, however, points to an imbalance. If one player playing one class can do it, it should be possible for any player, playing any class, to do so.
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OBVIOUSLY, AVs are group content. The point I was making is that in the comics the Tanker-types tend to go toe to toe with the big guns. That doesn't mean standing there for eternity unable to affect them, it means having the theoretical hope of eventually defeating them. My comments were aimed at the goal of emulating this to some better degree than is presently the case.
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It's already emulated- either you take on an AV with a team (where the Tanker gets to fight toe-to-toe), or you take on an EB solo. Either way, they're going down.
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That SOME builds can do it, however, points to an imbalance.
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Yes, there are some overpowered sets, or sets that skew towards single target damage and survivability.
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If one player playing one class can do it, it should be possible for any player, playing any class, to do so.
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It IS possible for any player (once they l2p) with any AT (but not any powerset combo). The point that was made before however is that soloing AVs is NOT a balance point and therefore there is NO onus on the Devs to make it possible for all powerset combinations.
Are you really suggesting that the devs manipulate powers in such a way to allow Empathy/Dark Defenders to solo AVs? All AVs or just some AVs?
Some sets are good with AVs, some sets are good with large groups, some sets are about survivability, some sets are about force multiplication. There never has been a trend in this game toward the homogeneity you are advocating.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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The point I was making is that in the comics the Tanker-types tend to go toe to toe with the big guns.
[/ QUOTE ]If the tank can take out the AV on his own, the tank has no need of the team. And this strikes you as a 'solution' to the 'problem'?
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Maybe Tankers should get their bottle too. You know, for doing the job nobody wants to.
[/ QUOTE ]
Except D3 Defenders... and Tankerminds... and some Scrappers... and some Controllers... and many Brutes... and dwarf form Kheldians...
[/ QUOTE ]
And most don't do it nearly as well....
[/ QUOTE ]Clearly, it's not a job nobody wants to do.
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And I want to point out that Tank-omination really wouldn't help Tankers solo AVs.
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Please find a new name for your proposal. Smackdown, Overpower, Bulldoze. Anything but Tank-omination, it isn't very descriptive as it could be misconstrued as some form of ESP for tankers and it's far too silly to say.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
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Power customization is a big deal because the system wasn't designed to support it. If the could start fresh, it wouldn't be a big deal at all.
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Ask and you shall receive. Now I realize that this is only part of power customization but there is nothing saying that they haven't also taken the time to change the fetters and animations for powers so that people could be firing energy blasts from their eyes or spitting fireballs.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
[ QUOTE ]
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Power customization is a big deal because the system wasn't designed to support it. If the could start fresh, it wouldn't be a big deal at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ask and you shall receive. Now I realize that this is only part of power customization but there is nothing saying that they haven't also taken the time to change the fetters and animations for powers so that people could be firing energy blasts from their eyes or spitting fireballs.
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I saw that. Gimme a call when the devs confrim that:
A) On a Blaster you can change the emanation points for each ranged attack. This means making Fire Blast come out of your chest, or eyes.
B) You can tint colors on a per-attack basis, as opposed to tinting your entire primary or secondary a color. (A and B would merely bring CoX's system up to par with what Champs can do.)
C) You can swap melee attack animations, even for ones that aren't the same length, because they will confrom themselves to the same length.
D) You can add and remove non-performance related effects to attacks as much as you like. (Screen shake, rock debris, flashes, sound effects)
Becuase otherwise, I wouldn't say they really did fully-featured customization.
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The point I was making is that in the comics the Tanker-types tend to go toe to toe with the big guns. That doesn't mean standing there for eternity unable to affect them, it means having the theoretical hope of eventually defeating them.
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Being awesome is its own reward.
[/ QUOTE ]
The Thing clobbering something and not even being able to make a dent in it or even wear it down when Daredevil can isn't very awesome. More like awful.
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Please find a new name for your proposal. Smackdown, Overpower, Bulldoze. Anything but Tank-omination, it isn't very descriptive as it could be misconstrued as some form of ESP for tankers and it's far too silly to say.
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But the point is you remembered it because of the silly nickname. The actual proposal I dubbed Gauntlet 2.0, IIRC.
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The Thing clobbering something and not even being able to make a dent in it or even wear it down when Daredevil can isn't very awesome. More like awful.
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They can both be awesome in their own way. If playing a Scrapper is what lets you feel awesome, go for it.
Is he going on about his refusal to socket damage enhancements again?
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Please find a new name for your proposal. Smackdown, Overpower, Bulldoze. Anything but Tank-omination, it isn't very descriptive as it could be misconstrued as some form of ESP for tankers and it's far too silly to say.
[/ QUOTE ]
But the point is you remembered it because of the silly nickname. The actual proposal I dubbed Gauntlet 2.0, IIRC.
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[/ QUOTE ]
I have a question about your Gauntlet 2.0 or whatever you wanted to call it. You stated in that thread that it would be the equivalent over time of 1 red inspiration on at all times. 1 red inspiration = 25% damage bonus. With 3 enemies in range, I'm getting a 26.5% damage bonus on my shield tanker. Do you feel that shield tankers do the damage that you would want tankers to do?
Please note, I'm not asking you whether or not you like shield defense as a powerset, nor am I asking you to choose shield if you want to do damage. I'm just trying to figure out precisely where you would want tankers balance point to lie because, frankly, I haven't been able to figure that out yet. I don't think I'm alone in that.
I think people tend to attack your ideas because you have never indicated where you would expect the balance point for tankers to lie, and when they attack your ideas you tend to get belligerent and then the threads just turn into a feeding frenzy that becomes a self perpetuating machine of doom.
So do shield tankers do enough damage for you to say "I like tankers there"?
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
[ QUOTE ]
You stated in that thread that it would be the equivalent over time of 1 red inspiration on at all times. 1 red inspiration = 25% damage bonus. With 3 enemies in range, I'm getting a 26.5% damage bonus on my shield tanker. Do you feel that shield tankers do the damage that you would want tankers to do?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I said it was slightly less than one small red inspiration, which is what the average worked out to.
But for the sake of this exchange, let's say it would equal exactly one small red inspiration, a 25% damage bonus.
So, one red inspiration on all the time. Let's say the devs deemed that an acceptable increase for Tankers.
25% buff @ 100% of the time.
So, if that's acceptable, what about:
50% buff @ 50% of the time?
That's double the buff but half the duration.
It still averages out the same in the end.
What about:
125% buff @ 20% of the time?
Again, still averageing out to 25%
Which is close to what I had proposed for Gauntlet 2.0. Actually, I had proposed a 120% buff @ 20% of the time, which only averages out to 24%, slightly less than a red inspiration, as I had said.
This would put Tanker damage at near peak Brute levels for a short time, allowing them to be heavy hitters at least some of the time.
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With 3 enemies in range, I'm getting a 26.5% damage bonus on my shield tanker.
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Are you? Mid's is telling me you only get a 16.5 damage buff with 3 foes feeding AAO on a Tanker. I don't think the View Totals window takes into account AT multipliers, if that's where you're looking.
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You stated in that thread that it would be the equivalent over time of 1 red inspiration on at all times. 1 red inspiration = 25% damage bonus. With 3 enemies in range, I'm getting a 26.5% damage bonus on my shield tanker. Do you feel that shield tankers do the damage that you would want tankers to do?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I said it was slightly less than one small red inspiration, which is what the average worked out to.
But for the sake of this exchange, let's say it would equal exactly one small red inspiration, a 25% damage bonus.
So, one red inspiration on all the time. Let's say the devs deemed that an acceptable increase for Tankers.
25% buff @ 100% of the time.
So, if that's acceptable, what about:
50% buff @ 50% of the time?
That's double the buff but half the duration.
It still averages out the same in the end.
What about:
125% buff @ 20% of the time?
Again, still averageing out to 25%
Which is close to what I had proposed for Gauntlet 2.0. Actually, I had proposed a 120% buff @ 20% of the time, which only averages out to 24%, slightly less than a red inspiration, as I had said.
This would put Tanker damage at near peak Brute levels for a short time, allowing them to be heavy hitters at least some of the time.
[ QUOTE ]
With 3 enemies in range, I'm getting a 26.5% damage bonus on my shield tanker.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you? Mid's is telling me you only get a 16.5 damage buff with 3 foes feeding AAO on a Tanker. I don't think the View Totals window takes into account AT multipliers, if that's where you're looking.
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[/ QUOTE ]
So I can assume that shield tankers are roughly what you would want out of baseline tankers in terms of long term performance?
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
[ QUOTE ]
So I can assume that shield tankers are roughly what you would want out of baseline tankers in terms of long term performance?
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It's not about long term. It's about being able to cut loose the deal some serious damage occasionally.
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Comic Brutes get carried away on their anger. Comic Tankers make a tactical decision to kick it up a notch and stop pulling their punches.
Which is something I've been trying to get for CoH Tankers.
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QFT, hit the nail on the head, with a sledge.
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In my mind, that's what Rage and Build Up was for. Perhaps what would be better is a modification of those specific powers?
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Well, Tal, Fail, I invite you two to have a discussion with Fernandes and ask about his thoughts on soloing AVs and if players should be allowed/able to.
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First off, please point me to where Fernandes states, "I have solo'd AVs with more than one distinct combo of every AT in this game." Especially without Nukes or Shivans.
Second, I at least haven't said that players shouldn't be allowed or able to, simply that it's a rarity in this game to be able to solo AVs regardless of AT. It is not a balancing point in this game. Devs do not consider, "this AT is underperforming in the soloing AV metric. We have to up their AV soloing ability." Nor is there any reason to, as AVs are not standard fare for soloing except at the highest difficulty level (and even then not always).
So again, this isn't an issue.