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Because these devs didn't make the claim you're attributing to them. And the one dev that made the claim did so quite a few years ago, proceeded to increase Tanker damage by a sizable amount, then left the project around the same time many of the current devs came on to the project.
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I wasn't around when they buffed Tanker damage. Can you give me a comparison of when KoB was unchanged then buffed? Because I think it would be interesting for me to see the damage on it before and after.
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Tankers went from a 0.6 / 0.65 damage mod (can't remember which) to 0.8. So, that means KO Blow went from 118.78 / 128.68 damage to 158.38. If you add slots / Rage to the mix, the damage boost went from 326.65 / 353.87 damage to 435.54. So basically, a 23% - 33% damage boost.
Of course, in the very beginning, KO Blow didn't do any damage at all...
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I'm curious to know what people would think if Tankers had access to ranged attacks?
I mean, it seems to me that damage is damage, whether it's from melee or range, so what difference does it make if the tanker has ranged attacks, if you see what I mean?
This comes to mind because I've made a number of NPCs for the MA, and in the case of most of the "tankerish" characters, I've given them the Dominator Assault sets instead of the straight melee or Ranged sets. It helps enormously with certain concept characters (like Iron Man types, who are supposed to be tough, but also have blasts).
Damage output would still be in the usual Tanker range, so I don't see it stepping on the toes of the Blasters any more than they step on Scrappers' toes now.
I anticipate the cries of "TANKMAGE!" but again, damage would still be in the usual Tanker range (lower, in fact, since ranged attacks do less damage in general than melee), and damage is damage, whatever the source.
The only thing I'm not certain of is how it would affect aggro control. That is, for ranged attacks, would the Gauntlet aura happen around the Tanker or the Target?
What do you think? What if they proliferated a few Energy/Electrical/etc. Assault sets over to Tankers (and possibly other melee characters)?
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Possible solution on the taunt issue...just like dark defends can put an accuracy debuff on mobs from a distance...I would imagine a Taunt aura would work. In fact...I love the idea of a toggle taunt 
I would love a blaster tank of some sort...obviously the attacks would not be as strong as real blasters, but I se no reason why this cannot happen.
As far as that goes...you could do it for scrappers too...although THAT would be more like a blaster I think.
INSERT: I want shape changers! "Wonder Twin powers activate!" (showing my age here)
I'd love a shape changer too. I don't know how they'd do it, considering they have alternate costumes, and now effects when changing them, I see nothing preventing alteration of the appearance of the character. The issue would be in the powers, and how to link certain powers to certain appearances.
The Kheldians have something like this now, I guess we're looking for something with a little more freedom.
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I'd love a shape changer too. I don't know how they'd do it, considering they have alternate costumes, and now effects when changing them, I see nothing preventing alteration of the appearance of the character. The issue would be in the powers, and how to link certain powers to certain appearances.
The Kheldians have something like this now, I guess we're looking for something with a little more freedom.
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It's really just not viable. They don't even have animation rigs for four-legged animals.
One thing similar I've always wanted, and is well within their ability, is a Totemic Animals power set. I could easily see it as a defensive set with a number of exclusive toggles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vixen_(comics)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bravestarr
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Because these devs didn't make the claim you're attributing to them. And the one dev that made the claim did so quite a few years ago, proceeded to increase Tanker damage by a sizable amount, then left the project around the same time many of the current devs came on to the project.
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I wasn't around when they buffed Tanker damage. Can you give me a comparison of when KoB was unchanged then buffed? Because I think it would be interesting for me to see the damage on it before and after.
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tankers were insane. invuln was deservedly nerfed into the ground not long after issue 4. an invuln/fire tanker should never, ever be able to solo a respec trial set for 8 people on invincible.
you guys should play a brute i think. forget the concepts and copying comic books. play a brute. sadly they made villains into pseudo-heroes if you follow the storylines. a brute is as close to a working version of what JB whines for you'll get in these games.
in order for any mmorpg to be anything but a solo grindfest, you need content that has to be completed in a group. for this - you need an assortment of classes that dont all perform the exact same functions. the trifecta of tank-healer-dps has worked for over 30 years of MUD's and MMORPG's and any attempt by companies to do something new has failed to date - the game became an anti-social solo fest or it's a korean grinder where yo ucontrol three chars at the same time.
the original system of picking whatever powers you wanted wasnt going to work. they knew this. i mean just look at how it's affected the AE. cryptic knew that for longevity of the game they were going to have to have some basics of class design. after all, these games are based on MUD's, most of which were based on DIKU which was based mostly on dungeons and dragons rulesets. they needed tanks, they need healers or buffers, and they needed dps'ers.
i'm sure CO will be a good game, but it remains to be seen if everyone and their mother isnt using the exact. same. powersets a month after launch because with the open endedness of the game someone somewhere will find some obscenely overpowered combination of powers - and every one will play them. READ: burn tankers issue 0-4
What happened? I swear we lost a whole page. That's the second time this thread has been modded.
See, this is what irks me. People come in and derail the thread, and well thought out posts are lost when the mods take action.
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See, now you're trying to make an argument where there isn't one. There's a name for that, but I'm not allowed to mention it here.
I actually wasnt even replying to you. I was replying to Kruunch and offering my opinion.
In terms of scale, sure. Superman doesn't qualify as a Tanker, he does way to much damage. You know as well as I that conceptually, that's exactly what he is.
Invulnerability, Super Strength, Flight, Laser Vision, heck, you could even tack Super Leap and Super Speed in there. Those are all Superman powers. Pretty close to all of them, in fact. Superman, is plainly a Tanker.
Now that you've sidestepped my comment rather than addressing it, let me return to it.
Conceptually and mechanically, I always thought Tankers should have been AOE melee specialists, and Scrappers ST melee specialists.
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In order
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I wasnt even replying to any of your posts, I was merely offering up an opinion inspired by Kruunchs question. RIF
Based on their strength levels alone, The Thing and Superman would be Blue Side SS/INV brutes. Wonder Woman has superhuman strength but not on the level with Supes and Ben and she is not impervious to injury, thus she is a WP/SS tanker. Again this is my opinion based on what I know of the canon and what I know will be possible in the game. YMMV
I couldnt have possibly sidestepped your comment because I didnt read it. I often post from work which means I dont have time to wade through 25 pages of posts. Normally I will hit the last page, scan the last few posts and reply to one of them specifically if I feel so inclined.
I have always supported the idea of tankers being AoE melee specialists and scrappers being more ST specific. Thus I don't understand why you would assume that we are arguing.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
Actually, McBoo, I think I responded to someone posting above you in quick reply, and it tacked your name on it. Sorry for the confusion.
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Because these devs didn't make the claim you're attributing to them. And the one dev that made the claim did so quite a few years ago, proceeded to increase Tanker damage by a sizable amount, then left the project around the same time many of the current devs came on to the project.
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I wasn't around when they buffed Tanker damage. Can you give me a comparison of when KoB was unchanged then buffed? Because I think it would be interesting for me to see the damage on it before and after.
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tankers were insane. invuln was deservedly nerfed into the ground not long after issue 4. an invuln/fire tanker should never, ever be able to solo a respec trial set for 8 people on invincible.
you guys should play a brute i think. forget the concepts and copying comic books. play a brute. sadly they made villains into pseudo-heroes if you follow the storylines. a brute is as close to a working version of what JB whines for you'll get in these games.
in order for any mmorpg to be anything but a solo grindfest, you need content that has to be completed in a group. for this - you need an assortment of classes that dont all perform the exact same functions. the trifecta of tank-healer-dps has worked for over 30 years of MUD's and MMORPG's and any attempt by companies to do something new has failed to date - the game became an anti-social solo fest or it's a korean grinder where yo ucontrol three chars at the same time.
the original system of picking whatever powers you wanted wasnt going to work. they knew this. i mean just look at how it's affected the AE. cryptic knew that for longevity of the game they were going to have to have some basics of class design. after all, these games are based on MUD's, most of which were based on DIKU which was based mostly on dungeons and dragons rulesets. they needed tanks, they need healers or buffers, and they needed dps'ers.
i'm sure CO will be a good game, but it remains to be seen if everyone and their mother isnt using the exact. same. powersets a month after launch because with the open endedness of the game someone somewhere will find some obscenely overpowered combination of powers - and every one will play them. READ: burn tankers issue 0-4
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IIRC Invincibility had a Typ-0 in it or a misplaced decimal point that caused it to be far overpowered. They then nerfed alll of defense (GDN), then they fixed the decimal point problem in invincibility. Finally, a short time ago, they buffed invulnerability to where it's competitive again.
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Based on their strength levels alone, The Thing and Superman would be Blue Side SS/INV brutes. Wonder Woman has superhuman strength but not on the level with Supes and Ben and she is not impervious to injury, thus she is a WP/SS tanker. Again this is my opinion based on what I know of the canon and what I know will be possible in the game.
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Not really, if you want to give them an AT, It would be Superman-Invul/SS (Hero class). Hulk invul/ss Brute(Hero class). Brutes lack overall defense and res end game, these heroes do not. I agree, WW would be WP/SS.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
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Based on their strength levels alone, The Thing and Superman would be Blue Side SS/INV brutes.
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Superman and the Thing are not Brutes. They are not ruled by their emotions. The Hulk is a Brute.
Superman and the Thing fit as Tankers for their teams conceptually because they do rush forward to take the brunt of an attack.
But Supes and the Thing also have the hitting power when the time comes for it and when they don't have to worry about their teammates.
When pushed, Supes will unload a pile of hurt.
He is the meatshield, but when he cuts loose, watch out.
Which is what Tankers lack conceptually. They protect teammates, and that's fine. The problem is they aren't allowed to cut loose from their medium damage.
Comic Brutes get carried away on their anger. Comic Tankers make a tactical decision to kick it up a notch and stop pulling their punches.
Which is something I've been trying to get for CoH Tankers.
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Comic Brutes get carried away on their anger. Comic Tankers make a tactical decision to kick it up a notch and stop pulling their punches.
Which is something I've been trying to get for CoH Tankers.
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QFT, hit the nail on the head, with a sledge.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
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Based on their strength levels alone, The Thing and Superman would be Blue Side SS/INV brutes.
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Superman and the Thing are not Brutes. They are not ruled by their emotions. The Hulk is a Brute.
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Please stop using your lack of imagination that a brute can only be fueled by anger as a justification for needing a change with an AT.
The way you are describing them Brutes only have a single concept and that is patently false.
Superman "stepping it up" as you say when the fight gets tougher could easily be signaled by a fury bar. Whether that bar equals anger or not is completely up to the individual behind the keyboard.
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Based on their strength levels alone, The Thing and Superman would be Blue Side SS/INV brutes.
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Superman and the Thing are not Brutes. They are not ruled by their emotions. The Hulk is a Brute.
Superman and the Thing fit as Tankers for their teams conceptually because they do rush forward to take the brunt of an attack.
But Supes and the Thing also have the hitting power when the time comes for it and when they don't have to worry about their teammates.
When pushed, Supes will unload a pile of hurt.
He is the meatshield, but when he cuts loose, watch out.
Which is what Tankers lack conceptually. They protect teammates, and that's fine. The problem is they aren't allowed to cut loose from their medium damage.
Comic Brutes get carried away on their anger. Comic Tankers make a tactical decision to kick it up a notch and stop pulling their punches.
Which is something I've been trying to get for CoH Tankers.
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Eh, concept is up to the player. I was speaking from a game mechanics point of view. If you want to replicate the punching power of someone like Superman or the Thing you go blue side brute. It's a much better option than trying to re-engineer one existing archetype to duplicate the abilities of another existing archetype.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
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It's a much better option than trying to re-engineer one existing archetype to duplicate the abilities of another existing archetype.
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It's not re-engineering so much as an addition to fix a design flaw the lead developer admitted was an error.
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It's a much better option than trying to re-engineer one existing archetype to duplicate the abilities of another existing archetype.
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It's not re-engineering so much as an addition to fix a design flaw the lead developer admitted was an error.
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They obviously don't believe it is still an error since they have done nothing (in your eyes) about it... so continuing to post what the lead developer said years ago doesn't really support your case.
Also once again... I'll present a question this time:
What gives you the impression that the only concept for a brute is someone driven by anger?
wow why is everyone harping on wonderwoman?
in the dc universe, she is second only to superman in raw power.
and jb what you are proposing is no different than a fury bar. it can be called something else, but it's still a fury bar. if tankers get that, NOBODY would ever play scrappers or brutes ever again unless the base dmg on all tanker abilities was nuked to compensate, and if their dmg isnt nuked then their defenses will need to be. it's called balance. you cant have this level of survivability and have any more damage than the AT currently has.
a tanker at the damage cap can do really good aoe damage right now with most secondaries.
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Superman "stepping it up" as you say when the fight gets tougher could easily be signaled by a fury bar. Whether that bar equals anger or not is completely up to the individual behind the keyboard.
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Except the concept in question isn't a bar filling up with the character's damage slowly ramping up and increasing due to outside stimuli. Like for example, Stong Guy ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_Guy ) absorbing more and more kinetic energy.
The concept is a character who's no longer holding back. There is no ramping up period and it's a deliberate decision to cut loose. That is quite different than Fury in both how it would be executed mechanically and the core concept.
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Superman "stepping it up" as you say when the fight gets tougher could easily be signaled by a fury bar. Whether that bar equals anger or not is completely up to the individual behind the keyboard.
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Except the concept in question isn't a bar filling up with the character's damage slowly ramping up and increasing due to outside stimuli. Like for example, Stong Guy ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_Guy ) absorbing more and more kinetic energy.
The concept is a character who's no longer holding back. There is no ramping up period and it's a deliberate decision to cut loose. That is quite different than Fury in both how it would be executed mechanically and the core concept.
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sure you can have that. it can be a long recharge clicky like dom, but can never be made perma.
it would have to have drawbacks for the extra damage - if you want to hit close to th elevel of a brute or scrapper, then you get scrapper/brute level defense to balance it out. so it would need -20% defense to all and -30% all resists to compensate.
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Superman "stepping it up" as you say when the fight gets tougher could easily be signaled by a fury bar. Whether that bar equals anger or not is completely up to the individual behind the keyboard.
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Except the concept in question isn't a bar filling up with the character's damage slowly ramping up and increasing due to outside stimuli. Like for example, Stong Guy ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_Guy ) absorbing more and more kinetic energy.
The concept is a character who's no longer holding back. There is no ramping up period and it's a deliberate decision to cut loose. That is quite different than Fury in both how it would be executed mechanically and the core concept.
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I can understand the conceptual difference but not the mechanical one.
If all you want instead of a bar that indicates how much you have stepped it up and instead want a button to push that indicates that you have a "build up" then it really does seem like a very semantic thing as far as a game mechanic.
Particularly when tankers in my mind (as someone who plays tankers a LOT) are capable of doing acceptable levels of damage. They might not be able to do scrapper or brute levels of damage out of the gate, but a scrapper or brute cannot achieve tanker defensive levels out of the gate either.
Like a lot of other tanker players this is an acceptable trade off for me.
What I have a hard time with is understanding is how you cannot fit your concept into a bar instead of a button.
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it would have to have drawbacks for the extra damage - if you want to hit close to th elevel of a brute or scrapper, then you get scrapper/brute level defense to balance it out. so it would need -20% defense to all and -30% all resists to compensate.
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First, there's where the double standard comes in that I'm always talking about.
Brutes and Scrappers can click their defensive Tier 9 and not worry about faceplanting, just like a Tanker, but they don't see an offensive penalty for temporarily increasing their survivability. So why should a Tanker see a survivability penalty for temporarily increasing their offense?
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sure you can have that. it can be a long recharge clicky like dom, but can never be made perma.
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Second, that's more or less what my inherent proposal for Tankers was.
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it would have to have drawbacks for the extra damage - if you want to hit close to th elevel of a brute or scrapper, then you get scrapper/brute level defense to balance it out. so it would need -20% defense to all and -30% all resists to compensate.
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First, there's where the double standard comes in that I'm always talking about.
Brutes and Scrappers can click their defensive Tier 9 and not worry about faceplanting, just like a Tanker, but they don't see an offensive penalty for temporarily increasing their survivability. So why should a Tanker see a survivability penalty for temporarily increasing their offense?
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sure you can have that. it can be a long recharge clicky like dom, but can never be made perma.
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Second, that's more or less what my inherent proposal for Tankers was.
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your tanker would still have it's tier 9 if it chooses, which would completely bypass said drawbacks for most primaries. you cant use scrapper or brute tier 9's and then ignore the tier 9's for tankers.
if you want the extra damage, you have to give up some defense. there is a reason why the scrapper caps were lowered from 90% like tanks to 75%. scrappers used to be able to cap smash/lethal resists in invuln. but this is an mmorpg and there has to be a class balance.
heck it may even need a regeneration penalty, because with said proposed penalties a willpower tanker would be insane after popping it and SoW
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wow why is everyone harping on wonderwoman?
in the dc universe, she is second only to superman in raw power.
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Actually Darkside, Mon-El, and Captain Marvel would all be significantly stonger than WW.
Help make America #1 in Broadband: www.broadband.gov
Take the survey/test (like a Census for Broadband): http://broadband.gov/qualitytest/about/
[ QUOTE ]
They obviously don't believe it is still an error since they have done nothing (in your eyes) about it... so continuing to post what the lead developer said years ago doesn't really support your case.
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This unrequited dev love needs to stop. Their human, they make mistakes. Fautline being one of those famous mistakes. And finally "fixing" Hollows after four years. Yes its an error, just because they don't admit to it doesnt make it any less a mistake. See passed the love for red names and use some objectivity.
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Also once again... I'll present a question this time:
What gives you the impression that the only concept for a brute is someone driven by anger?
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Besides the obvious name? or the "rage meter" they have. But if you need a more obvious hint; " Brutes live to fight, and as a brute you revel in hand-to-hand combat. With power offensive sets to inflict pain and impressive defense to take it, your the best there is in a straight fight. Protracted battles only makes you mad, and the madder you get, the more damaging your attacks become." - CoH Brute description.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
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Because these devs didn't make the claim you're attributing to them. And the one dev that made the claim did so quite a few years ago, proceeded to increase Tanker damage by a sizable amount, then left the project around the same time many of the current devs came on to the project.
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I wasn't around when they buffed Tanker damage. Can you give me a comparison of when KoB was unchanged then buffed? Because I think it would be interesting for me to see the damage on it before and after.