[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ps: Since tankers have effective ranged attacks now, should not blasters, defenders and controllers have the opportunity to have decent armor, defense, and status effect resistances too? it should also be true for red side... Giggles
[/ QUOTE ]
Sigh...okay, let's do this again.
Tanker ranged attacks have not changed much since issue 1. That's when the Ancillary Pools were released, giving Tankers the ability to do ranged damage and control, the thing that they were lacking.
At the same time, the 'squishy' ATs were given armors, in the same place that Tankers could grab ranged damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
They got mediocre armor usually against impale and smash, but got nothing in the world of defense and absolutely nothing in the status effect arena, which is way over done...
Stormy
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ps: Since tankers have effective ranged attacks now, should not blasters, defenders and controllers have the opportunity to have decent armor, defense, and status effect resistances too? it should also be true for red side... Giggles
[/ QUOTE ]
Sigh...okay, let's do this again.
Tanker ranged attacks have not changed much since issue 1. That's when the Ancillary Pools were released, giving Tankers the ability to do ranged damage and control, the thing that they were lacking.
At the same time, the 'squishy' ATs were given armors, in the same place that Tankers could grab ranged damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
They got mediocre armor usually against impale and smash, but got nothing in the world of defense and absolutely nothing in the status effect arena, which is way over done...
Stormy
[/ QUOTE ]
Depends on the armor whether they get Defense or Resistance.
And considering that they just got some minor mez protection in Defiance 2.0, I'd say they're doing pretty well in that department now, too.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since neither Superman nor Wonder Man nor The Thing are tanks, I'm not so sure that your argument provides the idea any more weight.
[/ QUOTE ]
Errr if you were to make a CoH comparison to those characters what would you classify them as?
[/ QUOTE ]
The only one in that group that is close to a CoH tanker would be Wonder Woman. I'd put her down as a WP/SS tanker. Supes and Ben are Incarnates, hands down.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
See, now you're trying to make an argument where there isn't one. There's a name for that, but I'm not allowed to mention it here.
In terms of scale, sure. Superman doesn't qualify as a Tanker, he does way to much damage. You know as well as I that conceptually, that's exactly what he is.
Invulnerability, Super Strength, Flight, Laser Vision, heck, you could even tack Super Leap and Super Speed in there. Those are all Superman powers. Pretty close to all of them, in fact. Superman, is plainly a Tanker.
Now that you've sidestepped my comment rather than addressing it, let me return to it.
Conceptually and mechanically, I always thought Tankers should have been AOE melee specialists, and Scrappers ST melee specialists.
Translated into City of Heroes, the Thing is definitely a Tanker. I'll leave Superman and Wonder Man open to debate.
Thing is clearly a side switched brute acutall, just like the hulk could technically be considered.
super man is a SS/Inv scrapper (his dmg clerly outshines his dmg taken)
wonder woman is the only tanker of the 3 and she's wp/ss like stated by someone else.
An interesting thing, I was reading the JLA/Avengers crossover the other day.
Look at the JLA taking on Terminus. Superman didn't throw a single punch. He was flying around taking the hits for others. Seems rather Tanky to me. That's only one example, though, he's been doing that for decades.
[ QUOTE ]
Thing is clearly a side switched brute acutall, just like the hulk could technically be considered.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with the Hulk as a Brute, they're practically based on him. But I think the Thing is a classic Tank- he dives in and takes on the enemy while the rest of the team formulates a plan.
Every official DC write-up on Superman I've ever seen shows him to have a much higher offense than defense.
How things should have been balanced from the begining:
Blasters: Kings of damage (if you count up all the orange numbers from their multi target attacks, and they should have had splash damage).
Scrappers: Kings of Single Target DPS. Quickly taking down multiple targets using speed and percision.
Tanks/Bricks: Kings of Damage per Hit.
I know it could have been balanced that way. They might have had to do something like give a momentum like inherent to Tanks/Bricks that would lower the recharge cap, and raise the -recharge floor to make sure that powers like hasten would not allow tanks to out DPS scrappers.
It could have been done, but it wasn't. Yeah, I'm still a little miffed that they shoehorned the 2 most iconic powers in comicbookdom (SS/Inv) into an aggro manager, but not as mad as I used to be. It's done, it's not going to change dramaticaly ever. I've accepted that and moved on.
Help make America #1 in Broadband: www.broadband.gov
Take the survey/test (like a Census for Broadband): http://broadband.gov/qualitytest/about/
[ QUOTE ]
Every official DC write-up on Superman I've ever seen shows him to have a much higher offense than defense.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's a pretty hard thing to quantify. Where Superman fits in the CoH world basically comes down to opinion. For me, diving in to take hits for my teammates always reminds me of the iconic "deflecting bullets" Superman pose.
Clearly they should have made one AT that was 'Retardedly Overpowered' with the 'Weak Characterisation' and 'Cheap Concept' pools to compensate all those people who want to play Superman.
And again you mistake style for substance.
No one has suggested anything about power level, only the depiction of the powers.
Superman has super strength and invulnerability. That means he's a Tanker, since that's the only class that allows that combination.
(I have to laugh at this thread, it's going just everywhere...)
Good that you can join us in the laughter.
Superman fans will never be satisfied. It's not enough that tankers do a lot of damage, because people will complain that superman should do more. I've written much on the subject of these kinds of fans, but it tends to boil down to: They can never be happy and will contribute nothing even if you try. So don't bother.
Meh, I've never really thought Tankers needed more damage, I've only ever argued that they don't "seem" or "feel" powerful because of the way the powers are presented. I mean, Power Thrust "feels" more powerful than almost any Super Strength power, yet does almost no damage. It's all in the presentation.
Personally, I'd have designed the game a lot differently (which is very likely apparent by now), but it was the first of the genre. I'm looking forward to seeing the DCU and Champions games, but I don't expect I'll disappear from here entirely. I've invested too much time and thought to it.
[ QUOTE ]
I mean, Power Thrust "feels" more powerful than almost any Super Strength power, yet does almost no damage.
[/ QUOTE ]Hitting a guy a thousand yard away and he gets back up and comes back feels more powerful to you than smacking a guy so hard that he flies twenty feet straight up and doesn't get back up?
Actually, yeah.
You're referring to KO Blow, though, and that's not one of the powers in the set that feels pretty weak. For that, refer to Jab, Punch and Haymaker. Hurl has been improved, but the rock still needs to be bigger. Hand Clap does no damage, but the knockback makes it feel strong. Of course Foot Stomp is nirvana. Rage is nice and all, but only adds to damage output, which doesn't change presentation at all.
[ QUOTE ]
And again you mistake style for substance.
No one has suggested anything about power level, only the depiction of the powers.
Superman has super strength and invulnerability. That means he's a Tanker, since that's the only class that allows that combination.
(I have to laugh at this thread, it's going just everywhere...)
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually the only AT that can be SS/inv are brutes.
[ QUOTE ]
The only one in that group that is close to a CoH tanker would be Wonder Woman. I'd put her down as a WP/SS tanker
[/ QUOTE ]
Should she have some shield in there as well?
Dirges
[ QUOTE ]
Superman has super strength and invulnerability. That means he's a Tanker, since that's the only class that allows that combination.
[/ QUOTE ]
Superman... can also walk right up to a building... and keep walking.
Superman... can also walk up to a mountain... and keep walking.
Superman... can start flying up... and just keep right on going until he gets to the moon.
Superman... once he gets to the moon... can play soccer aiming for saturn's ring.
I find it funny that you were talking about superman and then talking about presentation... when the extreme majority of superman's "animations" are standing their absorbing bullets, or hitting a guy once and sending him flying a thousand feet... other than that he's pretty much tearing the environment apart (in an attempt to save, protect, catch) which isn't possible in an MMO. That to me is pretty poor animation.
This is the problem. You can't pigeon hole super heroes into any game if you want literal translations. There will always be someone saying they aren't happy that their super hero isn't super enough. There have to be rules in a game, and if you can't accept that there are some limitations on powers then I'm not sure what game to advise you go play.
It feels like your suggesting that knockback is the only valid way to make a power feel super... and that I disagree with. Personally I think the haymaker presentation is pretty great but again this goes back to taking two sets in a game... and comparing them over and over and over again to comics which cannot EVER be realized as well as some people want them to be in a game. No matter what the game developer does someone won't be happy.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Superman has super strength and invulnerability. That means he's a Tanker, since that's the only class that allows that combination.
[/ QUOTE ]
Superman... can also walk right up to a building... and keep walking.
Flight.
Superman... can also walk up to a mountain... and keep walking.
Flight again.
Superman... can start flying up... and just keep right on going until he gets to the moon.
Flight, though we have a ceiling he doesn't.
Superman... once he gets to the moon... can play soccer aiming for saturn's ring.
I find it funny that you were talking about superman and then talking about presentation... when the extreme majority of superman's "animations" are standing their absorbing bullets, or hitting a guy once and sending him flying a thousand feet...
Again, Power Thrust does this, and doesn't do much damage - in other words, you don't need high damage to present like super strength.
other than that he's pretty much tearing the environment apart (in an attempt to save, protect, catch) which isn't possible in an MMO. That to me is pretty poor animation.
In this regard, I agree completely. The environment should have been much more interactive. Unfortunately, that's something we can't change.
This is the problem. You can't pigeon hole super heroes into any game if you want literal translations. There will always be someone saying they aren't happy that their super hero isn't super enough. There have to be rules in a game, and if you can't accept that there are some limitations on powers then I'm not sure what game to advise you go play.
It feels like your suggesting that knockback is the only valid way to make a power feel super... and that I disagree with.
That's not what I'm saying, I just used that as an example. Other things that help (in the case of Super Strength, at least) would be the generation of rubble, damage decaling, screen shake and so on.
Personally I think the haymaker presentation is pretty great but again this goes back to taking two sets in a game... and comparing them over and over and over again to comics which cannot EVER be realized as well as some people want them to be in a game. No matter what the game developer does someone won't be happy.
Unfortunate but true. I do think they could have come closer though...
[/ QUOTE ]
Responses in colour!
... power thrust... can throw the moon around...
Anyway, I think you're more or less pigeonholing yourself as 'unpleasable fanbase.'
So how does flight allow something to walk right through a mountain or building? When a bug flies into my windshield it goes splat, and my windshield is a hell of a lot weaker then either a mountain or building.
Dirges
[ QUOTE ]
It could have been done, but it wasn't. Yeah, I'm still a little miffed that they shoehorned the 2 most iconic powers in comicbookdom (SS/Inv) into an aggro manager, but not as mad as I used to be. It's done, it's not going to change dramaticaly ever. I've accepted that and moved on.
[/ QUOTE ]
What fuels my anger and keeps me smacking this brick wall over and over in the chance that it'll give, is that the devs admitted the mistake. Their lead designer copped to it AND promised to fix it. And it's obviously NOT fixed because few would claim Tankers are the big guns they are in comics.
Also, I strongly suspect that no one making a new super hero MMO is going to make that mistake again. They're either going with a stances system (swapping from Brick to Tanker at will) or they're going with actually having a Brick class and likely not a class that's as defensive/aggro sponge oriented as Tankers are.
Other deveopers have learned, why the heck can't these devs learn from their self-admitted error and try to fix it?
.
Because these devs didn't make the claim you're attributing to them. And the one dev that made the claim did so quite a few years ago, proceeded to increase Tanker damage by a sizable amount, then left the project around the same time many of the current devs came on to the project.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
[ QUOTE ]
Since neither Superman nor Wonder Man nor The Thing are tanks, I'm not so sure that your argument provides the idea any more weight.
[/ QUOTE ]
Errr if you were to make a CoH comparison to those characters what would you classify them as?