The Results Are In... Take 2

Brutes, with a good player behind, are going to be even more dominating on teams than in a ST comparison ; superior aggro control, much higher resistance and HP caps, access to superior team mitigation through AoE KD/disorients (i.e. Fault, Tremor, Footstomp).

Of course, next to that you've got maybe 90% of the PuG brute players who stop after each group to rest and start each fight with 0% Fury, aren't optimized so the aggro actually kills them, etc..

With all that, I doubt even dev datamining can show accurate figures of performance between both ATs. At best they can tell if the AT is balanced *for most players*, but that probably doesn't tell much to the average Archetypes&Powers forum goer who is most likely a bit ahead of the curve, as if he's there at all he's likely to care more about the game mechanics than your average joe.

Basically, I'd say Brutes are better if played well, and add Brutes SHOULD be better if played well, because player skill plays a bigger role than on Scrappers. Balance discussion between both ATs that disregard this difference can only apply to a very specific subset of players.

Great job on the math Bubba you’re a credit to the community. I think Cyber Naut’s analysis of your data is correct.

If you are always better than me at something and occasionally better than me at another its pretty clear whose the better pick. Remembering that these are not “outlier builds” being utilized but common IOs helps isolate variables that certainly would skew results. Its also important to remember that this test creates a consistent condition and it has been pointed out that consistency is the purview of the scrapper not the brute.

The arguement that Brutes have to put themselves into positions that the scrapper would avoid to achieve the relatively modest levels of fury used in this test rings somewhat hollow. Simply put, anything that seriously threatens survivability of a typical brute usually fuels fury past the levels used in this test, not to mention activates the emergency teleporter of the face-planted scrapper.

The proof may well be apparent once GR hits. How many more brutes will we see blue side than scrappers on red? Does anyone really think it will be close?

One thing that influences the discussion is that Brutes are flat out better in most big game hunting and stress tests we fabricate to test power builds. The fact that they can act as a tank for a group is icing on the cake.

The only place I see scrappers having an advantage is PvP where burst damage actually matters.

For me, brutes are easier to level on the way to SOs. That extra 150-175% damage makes fury chasing well worth it, especially when backing damage auras or attacks like spin.

You speak as a man who never has to look at his green or blue bars.

Heroes, Villains ♦ Reviews ♦ Retrospect

Here's the thing: low level brutes don't need much fury to do decent damage and high level brutes generally don't have issues soaking up enough aggro to build high fury. There is a section during the 20's to low 30's where they hit a bit of a speed bump, but ime you either like the toon enough to push past it, or you don't. Fury generation isn't the decider at that point.

At level 12 for instance brutes deal about 80% of the damage a scrapper does with the same attack, so they need much less fury to deal scrapper-like damage.

Compare that to once AT scalars have fully set in and brutes deal about 66% of scrapper damage with the same attack.

The only brutes I've personally had some fury issues with are on teams that are trying to tackle content way beyond them and proceed at a snails pace and on brutes that lack aoe damage and/or a taunt aura. One, the other, or both makes it a small issue in most cases.

The difficulty slider though is a huge boon to brutes both solo and teamed. Most of them thrive fighting increased numbers of weaker enemies to keep damage high and fuel aoe buffs (aao, dark regen, damage auras, rttc, and such). The slider allows for that from a much earlier stage in the game than was possible with the previous system.

Deus_Otiosus,

It sounds like you PUG a lot and this often leads to bad bruting experiences. I can see that being a problem.

I don't suffer the same issues as I do solo a lot and when I do team, it's with people from my server's badge channel. I don't PUG. I see no reason for such aggravation while I play.

How much fury does a brute need to catch up to a scrapper?

Brute Smite: 55.055 base
Scrap Smite: 82.582 base

Brute needs 25% fury to catch up. 82.582/55.055 = 1.499 = 50% damage buff needed, or 25% fury.

With enhancements, we'll say 95% each, the scrapper's smite goes up to 161.035
161.035/55.055 = 2.925 = (1+.95+x) = 97.5% damage buff needed or 48.75% fury. Almost half the fury bar.

Scrappers also crit. We'll go with 10% of the time for LTs, Bosses, AVs.
161.035 + 16.104 = 177.139

Brute now needs a bit less that 64% of a fury bar over time to equate to the scrappers average damage after taking into account crits and enhancements.

Buildup, fiery embrace and AAO from Shields will force the brute to work a bit harder.

From where I sit, brutes win. Most of the time. Maybe not on bad teams that don't know how to keep up or with multiple brutes that fight each other for fury.

EDIT: And just for giggles, a brute needs 6.5% fury to catch up to a enhanced tank. And on a team, he should be getting buffs to push him close enough to tank mitigation to do the job.

Personally to eaches own, me I don't like fury too much work to keep up. Don't you have to get hit to generate fury? So that would mean getting soft cap works against you? Just too much to deal with.

I know brutes can hold their own and build up to do some great damage but to really do a real calculation I think scraps would come out ahead. I know it sounds a bit like I am a Scrap fanboy, and I will admit I probably am since like I have 10 scrapper 50s, but if solo you should include the down time between mobs and how you start a mish with 0 fury. On teams the same things should be evaluated along with your teammates, Fire Corrs lay waste to mobs along with most MMs severely hurting fury gain.

I played my brute on teams and it was really hard to keep 50% fury and it sucked if I went afk for a second. Solo I generally stayed between 50% - 65% it was hard to keep my blue bar up so I couldn't sprint between mobs. (EM/Inv Btw) On my Scraps, any of them, I don't feel time constricted.

Brutes have to work hard for that damage and to keep it up, while Scraps have it all the time so they can be lazy. So yeah Brutes may get higher resistances caps, but they get the same base as Scraps but they have the same base, So really without outside help an SO built Brute is just barely a little bit more survivable than a SO built Scrap the only difference being HP.

However, I will agree that Fire Melee for brutes has the advantage.

I worry about my scrapper brethren that struggle to build fury. I worry because it makes me question their ability to flip out and kill things in scrapper-lock.