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You're comparing optimal DPS charts. Since players are not natively flowing into these states
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I call BS on this, but whatever.
Be well, people of CoH.
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You're comparing optimal DPS charts. Since players are not natively flowing into these states
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I call BS on this, but whatever.
[/ QUOTE ]I know this is going to be hard for you to believe, but you are not the natural evolution of playing well.
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[ QUOTE ]
You're comparing optimal DPS charts. Since players are not natively flowing into these states
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I call BS on this, but whatever.
[/ QUOTE ]I know this is going to be hard for you to believe, but you are not the natural evolution of playing well.
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While this isn't news to me at all, please share with us, oh brilliant one, what would be an example of that? I'm dying to here more of your pearls of CHV wisdom.
Be well, people of CoH.
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[ QUOTE ]
You're comparing optimal DPS charts. Since players are not natively flowing into these states
[/ QUOTE ]
I call BS on this, but whatever.
[/ QUOTE ]I know this is going to be hard for you to believe, but you are not the natural evolution of playing well.
[/ QUOTE ]
While this isn't news to me at all, please share with us, oh brilliant one, what would be an example of that? I'm dying to here more of your pearls of CHV wisdom.
[/ QUOTE ]If you're going to be snippy, I'm not going to help.
But in all seriousness, you and pretty much every person who's posted in this thread is an outlier. There's no reason to believe the way you guys would play and build (and remember, you did trade damage SOs for recharge SOs 'because we would do that') is something that spreads across the gaming community.
This is an interesting study for people like yourselves to consider when looking at builds. It's an interesting study in disproving certain canards (like the bloo-bloo-blooing about EM). It's definitely interesting because of some of the things it's shown about how specific people regard the skilled mechanics in this game vs the unskilled mechanics.
But I think it's meaningless to hand to Castle as evidence of an actual problem.
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But I think it's meaningless to hand to Castle as evidence of an actual problem.
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We're certainly in agreement here. I don't see a problem with brute/scrapper performance on the whole. I play them both regularly and they feel completely comparable. Even these two separate data points of ST DPS shows them to be comparable.
There's lots of other data points that need to be taken into account, not the smallest of which is the fact that I do predominantly solo and my perceptions are obviously tilted a bit due to that, if you wish to get into the much large scope of whether the two ATs are balanced. But that was Never the goal of these two threads, as I thought I had stated multiple times.
Using these two spreadsheets as some kind of rule for total AT and powerset comparison in a void would be nothing more than dumb. There only purpose was to show myself what's gonna rock against pylons and AVs.
Be well, people of CoH.
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There only purpose was to show myself what's gonna rock against pylons and AVs.
[/ QUOTE ] And they're pretty much great for that. I am getting a little fed up with people mentioning them in-game or on other forums as a balance discussion, though. Ah well, whatcha gunna do?
Good stuff Billz. Just out of curiosity, ever thought of doing something like this using theoretical best possible builds with Uniques, purple sets, procs, etc?
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Something like that would be in The Results are in It is the Best attack chains for each set.
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Originally Posted by JDouble_NA
Good stuff Billz. Just out of curiosity, ever thought of doing something like this using theoretical best possible builds with Uniques, purple sets, procs, etc?
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"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"- Chesty Puller US Marine Corps
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Yes, but I believe those results are from common IOs and don't factor in any set bonuses or procs. I'm curious how the sets compare when you do a IO'd out build with no limit on Inf. It would be alot of work and not be very useful to very many people...but I'd love to see it.
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Originally Posted by BrokenPrey
Something like that would be in The Results are in It is the Best attack chains for each set.
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Well they don't have Proc iirc, but they are not from common IOs because the attack chain need lot of recharge to run them. Like Dark Melee for Scrapper attack chain is MG/Smite/SL/Smite. You need 234% rechrage in MG to run this there is no way you can get that with Common IOs.
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Originally Posted by JDouble_NA;
Yes, but I believe those results are from common IOs and don't factor in any set bonuses or procs. I'm curious how the sets compare when you do a IO'd out build with no limit on Inf. It would be alot of work and not be very useful to very many people...but I'd love to see it.
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"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"- Chesty Puller US Marine Corps
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Aye. The first run lacked procs but the recharge rates are so high that they couldn't be done without hasten and massive setIO bonuses.
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Originally Posted by BrokenPrey
Well they don't have Proc iirc, but they are not from common IOs because the attack chain need lot of recharge to run them. Like Dark Melee for Scrapper attack chain is MG/Smite/SL/Smite. You need 234% rechrage in MG to run this there is no way you can get that with Common IOs.
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Be well, people of CoH.
How does the new Fire Blast for Scrappers compare to Gloom for Brutes? Some quick calculations from Mid's show that the DPA is much lower(with nearly any level of fury), but this may not be in cases such as you described.
"It's your money or your life madam. Oh wait! Today's Thursday! It's both."
As much as i under stand most of all this, doesn't the fact that depending on the damage type, alter what damage a toon will do against another
So because smash/lethal is more resisted it technically needs a bigger advantage either in damag or rech etc, when it's compared with say negative, fire or psi damage?
@Effy
Effy On Hot Sauce Fire/Cold Corr
Effy On Hot Chilli Fire/Dark Corr
Effy On Heat FM/SD Before FoTM
Effy Unleashed DP/EN Blaster 1st 50 @ Union
Yeah, I agree with the resistance question. I also have another point of view after playing most every form of scrapper: my BS/SR is a single target beast dishing out massive amounts of damage. But my Spines/Fire is a minion melter that ticks away health on large numbers. There's a question of overkill. In otherwords, how much do you really need to apply to take out an enemy, versus the longer recharge and animation times of higher hitting attacks. If I were to say "go" on a 20 person spawn, for example, for both of the aforementioned toons, there's no doubt my scrapper who shows up at the bottom of the pile in this study would probably blaze through that spawn in less than half the time of my indestructible single target master.
Though these calculations are interesting, I find the game is so varied that I don't feel so bad about playing any scrapper, regardless of these calculations.
And Brutes, in my experience, are just a pain to maintain Fury if your team doesn't want to, or can't, move at your pace.
Happy scrapping.
Hey BillZ, I was just curious, what was the attack string you used for Energy Melee?
I want to give EM another run from lvl 1-50 (due to another thread).
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Between brutes and scrappers it comes down to number crunching. In actual game play both are really potent archtypes. Both can own Pve pretty easily and a well IO'ed scrapper or brute can be awe inspiring, turning others green. Now, when you number crunch it brutes "may" come up with statisical edge in pve damage but both have awesome playability. In PVP its a different story. There Scrappers have a clear advadge. Thats not to say they cant compete on the battle field. They can and do but scrapper have more then a 3 percent edge there. Over all both archetypes are fun, extreme playable and two of the most powerful archetypes out there. Since they are both melee dps it only natural for them to jockeying for position. C
Best of Luck,
Cipher
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That "edge" in damage output also assumes very consistent circumstances (like standing there punching a pylon repeatedly for 5-10 minutes), but consistency is the Scrapper's forté, not the Brute's. |
Originally Posted by Louis_Cipher
Between brutes and scrappers it comes down to number crunching. In actual game play both are really potent archtypes. Both can own Pve pretty easily and a well IO'ed scrapper or brute can be awe inspiring, turning others green. Now, when you number crunch it brutes "may" come up with statisical edge in pve damage but both have awesome playability.
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Thats so true Deus.
A brute sees those massive fluxs in damage potential. If you the alpha on the team tanking, then you going to be very happy with your damage. If your not then your playing more of a scrapper role trying to eek out some fury and get the damage up there, you going to be frustrated with your damage.
I think a lot of scrapper see brutes at there best moments and think wow thats not fair but consistantly scrapper compare well with brutes.
If two brutes and a scrapper are playing on a team. One brute is tanking and the scrapper and other brute are dpsing. I am going to say the lead brute will being doing more damage 90 percent of the time. The scrapper will be doing more then the dps brute 90 percent of the time. So the scrapper will be in the middle of those two brutes.
Now, if you add a tanker. Well the tanker will be um...tanking. The two brutes will be dps with the scrapper and the scrapper will be out dps the brutes 90 percent of the time. Clearly, different builds will have differnent results.
I am one of those who beleive the two ATs are well balance and play very when doing what they were ment to do. In the end.
BRUTE
+ higher hp, higher caps, - needing to be the center of attn to do the damage.
You dont get the plus without the minus and with brutes required play style to do damage they need the plus. Scrappers dont.
Its a grass is always greener for both sides. Hey if you think one side gets that big of advantage, well they get very similiar sets and generally if you can make on, you can make it on the other. With going rogue you may get your choose.
Now I know both sides would like a few, "little" change to just to make sure its balanced. Brutes would love for fury to be easier and fast to be build. Check out the brute fourm under what would you wish. They want that scrapper consistancy.
Scrappers want those few extra hp and resist or atleast brutes dropped down to scrapper resist and hp, depending on the post.
Play a scrapper or brute because you like what they offer, both side would like em to offer a little more. Thats always the case. However, neither AT needs any help. Both operate at a very high level. And giving another more to either AT would be a serious snub many other ATs who dont have it as good. Nerf one class to make aother feel superior is ALWAYS wrong.
I have seen it happen in other games where one class whines and complains until another nerfed. Then it happens in reverse. Nobody want to be on the wrong end of the nerf bat.
So in the end, brutes have the same def and resist values on all there powers as scrappers do. Brute get a few extra hp and with the way they play they need it. Brutes get higher Resist Cap(def soft capped really the same) which unless a brute is on a good team and is needed to tank some serious damage most often does not come in to play. So on a general basis, Brute more hp, scrapper more consistant damage. Make your bed guys.
Enjoy,
Cipher
Interesting thread, but all of these pages seem to overlook one important aspect:
Sustained DPS =/= burst damage.
A Brute with access to Build Up, Soul Drain, FU/BF, red pills, or external +damage that's on a timer simply does not pump out the burst damage that a Scrapper can. This is an important distinction that places the Scrapper as more of a hybrid between Stalkers and Brutes if viewed through "red" glasses, while the Brute is a hybrid between a Tanker and a Scrapper if viewed with "blue" glasses. Both the Brute and Scrapper AT possess multiple attributes and abilities that fall somewhere in between their respective bookends from the other faction.
Looking at everything through a lens that only values sustained DPS denies Scrappers one of their primary roles-- an ability to leverage burst damage against Bosses and Lts. There's also the issue of realistic external +damage in a team setting. The Scrapper AT is almost always outperforming the Brute when external +damage is considered.
This debate is a bit myopic and tends to play into the general meme of soloing AVs and Pylons. I'm sorry, but that's just a fraction of this game.
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That's a very good point, one that I think wasn't often considered.|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
This debate is a bit myopic and tends to play into the general meme of soloing AVs and Pylons. I'm sorry, but that's just a fraction of this game.
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I'd be very interested to see comparisons of damage output in a team setting, with external +damage bonuses applied.
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In a team setting, we're talking mostly about AoE damage and possible buffs, and everything gets VERY murky.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I'd be very interested to see comparisons of damage output in a team setting, with external +damage bonuses applied.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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That's quite true.|
Originally Posted by Werner
In a team setting, we're talking mostly about AoE damage and possible buffs, and everything gets VERY murky.
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However I think it's a major point that was mostly ignored in this thread (not by Bill Z specifically, but rather the discussion that followed).
Comparing Brute damage output vs. Scrapper output in basically a ST test vacuum was followed with a great deal of complaining about 'Brute Damage' output combined with their higher survivability potential and thinly veiled nerf/buff sentiments.
Other considerations were often overlooked, for example teaming was largely ignored in favor of soloing Pylons & AVs.
The fluctuations in brute damage output due to mission particulars or team composition.
Or a brute's role on a team and the amount of aggro they generate.
So to have two stickied discussions, neither of which really touch on AoE damage output or teaming situations is as Julius put it "a bit myopic".
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I agree. It's even more amusing when the primary purpose for these threads was to prove to myself that there is absolutely no reason for any given set not to be proliferated amongst the melee archetypes.| So to have two stickied discussions, neither of which really touch on AoE damage output or teaming situations is as Julius put it "a bit myopic". |
The OP was never meant to be more than that and a general comparison to show where a set sits for single target damage output. Imagine my surprise when I returned from a break to find them stickied.
Now imagine the playful griefing I've received because of it.
<shrug> Just one of those things, I guess.
I will say this, however, discussions on teaming don't belong in ANY thread that is discussing direct damage output comparisons simply because every team is going to be different. Others may disagree with that statement, but I never cared.
I view the game from a soloist viewpoint, I view powerset balance on what can be achieved while solo. How something performs while buffed to the walls on a team is silly to me partly because on teams everything gets steamrolled into paste in this game.
Be well, people of CoH.
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THAT I agree with. Much as I'm a numbers guy, and as much as I love DPS discussions, I also recognize that single-target DPS isn't very important for most of the game. I believe that burst and AoE both tend to be more important, just more difficult to quantify. And then of course you have survivability, utility, general contribution to teams, data mining of various things that only the devs can do properly, and so on. A Brute vs. Scrapper balance discussion should involve MUCH more than single target DPS comparisons. As Bill points out, that wasn't really the intent of the thread, but to some extent, it is what it became.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Comparing Brute damage output vs. Scrapper output in basically a ST test vacuum was followed with a great deal of complaining about 'Brute Damage' output combined with their higher survivability potential and thinly veiled nerf/buff sentiments.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Spellcheck is your friend.
[/ QUOTE ]It's 2 am and I've had a day full of bad news. Spellcheck can gargle me.
And it's still outlier behaviour. You're comparing optimal DPS charts. Since players are not natively flowing into these states, and one requires a required and attained skill to maintain, it's meaningless to compare A to B and say either is a problem.