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No, you build fury by being attacked or getting attacks directed at you. So if you're playing, you'll have some kind of fury going... lol.|
Originally Posted by Da_Captain
Personally to eaches own, me I don't like fury too much work to keep up. Don't you have to get hit to generate fury? So that would mean getting soft cap works against you? Just too much to deal with.
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I know brutes can hold their own and build up to do some great damage but to really do a real calculation I think scraps would come out ahead. I know it sounds a bit like I am a Scrap fanboy, and I will admit I probably am since like I have 10 scrapper 50s, but if solo you should include the down time between mobs and how you start a mish with 0 fury. On teams the same things should be evaluated along with your teammates, Fire Corrs lay waste to mobs along with most MMs severely hurting fury gain. I played my brute on teams and it was really hard to keep 50% fury and it sucked if I went afk for a second. Solo I generally stayed between 50% - 65% it was hard to keep my blue bar up so I couldn't sprint between mobs. (EM/Inv Btw) On my Scraps, any of them, I don't feel time constricted. Brutes have to work hard for that damage and to keep it up, while Scraps have it all the time so they can be lazy. So yeah Brutes may get higher resistances caps, but they get the same base as Scraps but they have the same base, So really without outside help an SO built Brute is just barely a little bit more survivable than a SO built Scrap the only difference being HP. However, I will agree that Fire Melee for brutes has the advantage. |
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Fortunately fury does not operate the way you think it does, but it makes me wonder how many people out there have misinformation about fury.|
Originally Posted by Da_Captain
Big difference most of my scrappers Soft cap so running into mob after mob is not a problem, doing that on my Brute doesn't keep fury up as it seems that defense works against Fury and running from mob to mob means a loss in fury. Scrapper lock only requires you to run to the next group after you are done killing the current group. Brutes lose fury chasing down a runaway, taking a tough boss, and moving to the next mobs.
Scrapper lock = Fury As said before Fury requires a lot of attention and Scraps are always at full. |
Fury is built by attacking and being attacked regardless of a successful hit. Otherwise defense brutes would be very gimped.
You build fury by playing the game and honestly you don't need to rush to maintain 60-70% fury. You need to rush to keep it at 80+ if the mobs aren't tightly spawned.
Running in to mob after mob is even easier on a brute than it is on a scrapper as they have more hp.
It is a myth that maintaining decent fury is any sort of challenge at all in the majority of scenarios.
I think Brutes and Scrappers are as perfectly balanced as you could get them. As theis argument has gone on for years :P
The small disadvantages that a brute gets damage wise, are thrown out the window considering they get more HP, higher damage cap and higher res cap!
They get more survivability so they can handle the mobs too get more fury.
Now do i roll my FM/SD scrapper as a Brute Hmmmmm
@Effy
Effy On Hot Sauce Fire/Cold Corr
Effy On Hot Chilli Fire/Dark Corr
Effy On Heat FM/SD Before FoTM
Effy Unleashed DP/EN Blaster 1st 50 @ Union
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
No, you build fury by being attacked or getting attacks directed at you. So if you're playing, you'll have some kind of fury going... lol.
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Got ya, sorry my mistake
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| If you were staying between 50-65% fury then you were doing around scrapper level damage with clearly better damage mitigation abilities. |
(Buffs were included on both sides)
So yeah 65%-75% Fury on average will keep you on Scrapper level damage, if it were a Scrapper that never uses BU or those type of attacks, but the more BU is used the more Scraps edge out to the lead.
Cyber, what do you mean by more mitigation?
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
Da Captain, you mentioned your brute was EM/inv; I have read from many posters that EM's attacks tend to be slower and more measured than many sets available to brutes, and maybe that has something to do with your Fury generation experience.
That being said, I appreciate that your personal playstyle favors the non-fluctuating badassness that the Scrapper provides. Scraps rock; When several are on a team, there's no competition for aggro for higher damage, which can happen for Brutes.
In my experience, though, there's very little difference between Brute and Scrapper damage, and I've never had much issue with fury generation. 80% is not hard once you have the endurance to sustain yourself.
50s:
Grimmloch, Tactically Delicious, Ugly Frankie, Operative Tracker, CryoFurnace, Professional Help, Silver Sphinx, Aries Knight, Tachyon Aegis, Jade Sphinx
Currently building:
Any one of half a dozen alts!
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Let's check your math, shall we?| On Average if a Claws Keeps double stacked FU then a Brute needs to Average about 80% Fury. Not sure why but one BF on DB Brutes need to keep an average of 83% Fury. |
Claws attack chain: Followup, Slash, Focus, Strike. FU is double stacked. All attacks have 95% enhancement.
Note: Claws is a special case. Brute claws was tweaked (more claws tweaks on top of claws tweaks!) to have higher recharges, thus cost more end, thus do more damage.
Scrapper:
Base damage of chain: 287.285
Buffs: 2XFU-75%; enh-95%
Total damage of chain: 287.285*(1+.75+.95) = 775.67
Brute:
Base damage of chain: 209.958
Buffs: 2XFU-60%; enh-95%
Fury needed to catch up to scrapper: 775.67/209.958 = 3.69; 3.69 - 1 - .6 - .95 = 1.14 or 114% damage buff or 57% fury. Just over half a fury bar.
EDIT: Forgot crits: 853.237 for the scrapper; 151% damage needed for brute, 75% fury.
Let's test your build up thought using my original post:
Scrapper smite (I know, DM doesn't get BU, but it doesn't matter) does 82.582 base.
Brute Smite does 55.055 base.
Scrap w/95% enhancements, 100% from BU and 10% crits:
(82.582*(1+.95+1))*1.10 = 267.979
Brute BU is 80%
267.979/55.055 = 4.867 - 1 - .95 - .8 = 2.117 or 211.7% more damage needed or over 100% fury.
OH NO!! However, BU isn't a permanent buff, as you did state. With three SOs knocking the recharge down by close to half, you're talking up 10, down 35, 28% buff over time.
That changes the equations to:
(82.582*(1+.95+.28))*1.10 = 202.574
Brute BU accounting for downtime is 22.4%
202.574/55.055 = 3.679 - 1 - .95 - .224 = 1.505 or 150.5% damage needed or 75.25% of the fury bar.
Brutes still win.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Yes they generally do!|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Brutes still win.
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And while a scrapper with buildup running is hard to keep up with for the same set on a brute the difference is often erased when you look at the attack sets that scrappers don't have access to.
Attacks like KO blow, Seismic, TF, and ET are so much stronger than anything scrappers have access to. So while it is demonstratively true that a scrapper using build up with hit harder than a brute using build up+fury on an attack like havoc punch; it is also demonstratively true that a scrapper can't touch stone melee or EM for burst damage.
Just look at something like broadsword vs stone melee
(95% enhance, bu, 75% fury for brute)
Hack>HS>Disem>Slash>Hack
=(102.6*1.1*2.95)+(162.7*1.15*2.95)+(122.6*1.1*2.9 5)+(62.6*1.1*2.95)+(102.6*1.1*2.95)
=1818.7
Heavy>Seismic>Stone Mallet>Fist>Heavy
=(95.1*4.25)+(148.8*4.25)+(68.4*4.25)+(41.7*4.25)+ (95.1*4.25)
=1908.7
It is pretty close, but the stone chain is 1.5x seconds faster and the brute still has ample self buffing that is possible to be reached.
It is also important to note that people often complain about the consistency of brute performance, but that chain will always produce that much damage (or more) when you are actively playing.
On the other hand the scrapper could just as easily (and is actually pretty likely) to only produce only 1630 damage when none of the crits fire. Or it can vary widely and produce considerably more damage if a couple of them go off. The only reason people don't complain about the inconsistency of scrappers is because they range from really good to amazing. But a actively played brute is just consistently great (which is between the two scrapper states).
So like Billz said, brutes win.
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Yeah I guess that could be a bit of the problem, I have heard about EM and not too many good things. Pretty much the consistancy is what makes the numbers given hard to go by, but then again might just be the bad taste left in mouth from my first Brute, whereas I have yet to find a combo of Scraps I don't like.|
Originally Posted by Telperion
Da Captain, you mentioned your brute was EM/inv; I have read from many posters that EM's attacks tend to be slower and more measured than many sets available to brutes, and maybe that has something to do with your Fury generation experience.
That being said, I appreciate that your personal playstyle favors the non-fluctuating badassness that the Scrapper provides. Scraps rock; When several are on a team, there's no competition for aggro for higher damage, which can happen for Brutes. In my experience, though, there's very little difference between Brute and Scrapper damage, and I've never had much issue with fury generation. 80% is not hard once you have the endurance to sustain yourself. |
Sorry I Bill Brutes don't win, I was going to give the benefit of the doubt, but I just ran a a couple mishes on test with my Brute and damage just didn't feel like Scrapper level I had it on /x2 and my Fury bar never made it past 60%, once you get it past 55% it starts to drop quick til you get to about 30% then it slows a bit. On average Brute probably have about 55% fury for the whole mish that is from the time you start the mish to finish, because I refuse to believe you are starting a mish with 75% on your fury bar and I definitely refuse to believe that once you get it there it stays. So with the fluctuation and given the time it take between and how you start, if you are able to sustain 75% or even 85% fury during most groups, that isn't what you start the fight with so saying a brute needs an average of 75% to match Scrapper level damage the fact is that unless you are at 75% or higher longer than you are below then you can't state that 75% is what on average brutes can attain, more realistic numbers would probably 60% - 65% on average and that is really pushing it seeing how I ran through a couple mishes and didn't get past 60% and I flew threw the whole mish (popped blues so end wouldn't be a problem)
So in the end Scrappers win for most purposes, brutes only win in environments that keep their fury bar above 75%. So more than likely for farms Brutes are better damage dealers, but on teams and when you just want to rush through an oro arc they ain't beating scrapper damage.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
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Your feelings an inability to grok how to generate fury means nothing to facts and proper usage of maths.| Sorry I Bill Brutes don't win, I was going to give the benefit of the doubt, but I just ran a a couple mishes on test with my Brute and damage just didn't feel like Scrapper level I had it on /x2 and my Fury bar never made it past 60%, once you get it past 55% it starts to drop quick til you get to about 30% then it slows a bit. |
Your fury downtime between spawns means nothing as well if you're back up to 75-90% fury during a battle.
A properly played and built brute will be above 75% fury while in a combat situation.
It would be nice if there was a way to turn on a fury tracking monitor that could be bound to a key so that one could show the actual average fury sits at by toggling it on during right before initiation combat and off when the last enemy in a spawn falls.
The fact that you can't get fury above 60% while I sit at over 90% in combat tells me nothing but that you're doing it wrong.
Are you using low end fast recharging attacks as soon as they're up? Or are you only firing off your big hitters? Barrage, Energy Punch and Brawl should be your primary attacks for fury generation and maintenance.
EDIT: Here's my level 24 EM/INV brute in a council mission at +0/x3 difficulty. Please note the damage buff of 178.17% and that buildup has not been used. That's 89% fury right there.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I wonder how you are playing that you have trouble exceeding 60% fury. Even post ET nerf my em/fire still had zero issues with fury and was still doing ridiculous orange numbers with TF and ET. It just felt like playing through molasses, which I hate.|
Originally Posted by Da_Captain
Yeah I guess that could be a bit of the problem, I have heard about EM and not too many good things. Pretty much the consistancy is what makes the numbers given hard to go by, but then again might just be the bad taste left in mouth from my first Brute, whereas I have yet to find a combo of Scraps I don't like.
Sorry I Bill Brutes don't win, I was going to give the benefit of the doubt, but I just ran a a couple mishes on test with my Brute and damage just didn't feel like Scrapper level I had it on /x2 and my Fury bar never made it past 60%, once you get it past 55% it starts to drop quick til you get to about 30% then it slows a bit. On average Brute probably have about 55% fury for the whole mish that is from the time you start the mish to finish, because I refuse to believe you are starting a mish with 75% on your fury bar and I definitely refuse to believe that once you get it there it stays. So with the fluctuation and given the time it take between and how you start, if you are able to sustain 75% or even 85% fury during most groups, that isn't what you start the fight with so saying a brute needs an average of 75% to match Scrapper level damage the fact is that unless you are at 75% or higher longer than you are below then you can't state that 75% is what on average brutes can attain, more realistic numbers would probably 60% - 65% on average and that is really pushing it seeing how I ran through a couple mishes and didn't get past 60% and I flew threw the whole mish (popped blues so end wouldn't be a problem) So in the end Scrappers win for most purposes, brutes only win in environments that keep their fury bar above 75%. So more than likely for farms Brutes are better damage dealers, but on teams and when you just want to rush through an oro arc they ain't beating scrapper damage. |
Solo or teamed (if you are point) you should have high fury by the time the first spawn is defeated. From there you just play like you would any other toon and you will keep high fury. Unless you are prone to frequent afk's then it is a non-issue.
In fact I just logged in and set to 0/x3/bosses I was at 174.xx% + damage by the middle of defeating the 6 or so enemies. I even used bu+seismic smash+heavy mallet to vaporize one of the luts right off the bat. I don't try to milk fury anymore, I jump right into using my heavy hitters. It's not like the old days where you needed to massage your low tier attacks quickly to get fury up. Just face more enemies.
174/2= 87 points of fury.
With the new difficulty sliders I don't even worry about chasing fury like the old days. Before my brute can handle tougher spawns I just set to -1/x3/ no bosses. Your fury builds so fast you really don't even need to worry about it at all.
When you state you flew through the whole mission and didn't exceed 60% fury are you sure you didn't mean hovered? j/k, but that is about the only explanation.
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That would be cool. I just have my damage buff monitor on. I currently don't have any +dam bonuses so everything I see is generated from fury. Whatever I see I just divide by 2. It certainly gets more complicated when you factor in other +dam and it would be nice to have a separate fury monitor.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
It would be nice if there was a way to turn on a fury tracking monitor that could be bound to a key so that one could show the actual average fury sits at by toggling it on during right before initiation combat and off when the last enemy in a spawn falls.
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The fact that you can't get fury above 60% while I sit at over 90% in combat tells me nothing but that you're doing it wrong. |
It would honestly be a struggle for me to be at 60 pts of fury throughout a fight. I'd have to purposefully not attack and have something that disables the enemies from attacking too. Maybe a stone/dark - OG+fault spam with really low enemy settings. Even then if I decide to actually defeat them I would be hard pressed to stay at 60 or less fury.
I'm really curious what he is doing. It is so far removed from what I've personally experienced on every brute I've played. Da Captain you should upload a video or something, there has to be something you are doing that is seriously gimping your brute.
Just ran two more missions. I generally sit between 80 and 90% fury, almost never going past 90%. Moving between spawns, I'll drop to 60% fury. I'm back up to 80% before the first baddie hits the floor.
I can conservatively state that on this level 24, now 25, character, using energy melee, while in combat my average fury is 80%, perhaps even 85%.
Therefore: My brutes win.
Be well, people of CoH.
Frost how about you compare two sets that are in both ATs like Elec Melee.
Scrap 95% ED cap and BU
Charged Brawl - 170
Havoc Punch - 267.9
L Rod - 590
Brute 95% ED cap, BU, and 75% Fury (Which I believe is too much to consider average)
Charged Brawl - 149
Havoc Punch - 235
L RoD - 569.8
If you want to see me play let me know, I don't mind showing you, you might even be able to give me some tips on playing better, but as far as I know I was going to the best of my ability.
Edit: Just ran through another mish, the only time I got my fury bar up was when I didn't use Whirling hands and grabbed two groups, I guess stunning the minions was taking away from me gaining fury, I am still left with a bad taste on brutes, seems as though as brutes need large mobs and less mitigation to gain more damage, I am unimpressed you can call it a victory if you want to, but my scrapper comes with no strings attached. Attack and keep it moving, motto of Scrappers
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
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Why? Billz already did. Outside of the time build up is active the brute is fully capable of outshining the scrapper. The comparison I did is for two similar playstyle sets to show that even when buildup is going there are brutes still outshining scrappers.|
Originally Posted by Da_Captain
Frost how about you compare two sets that are in both ATs like Elec Melee.
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I don't feel a need to handicap myself so I compare the "best" of what each AT offers me. BS is supposed to be the most "burst" set, I believe that still holds true even with fire on the scene now as incinerate takes awhile to do its thing. At the same time Stone melee is the "burst" set for brutes (used to be EM, but it is so slow now).
I just happen to have a bs/shield and a stone/ela near lvl 40. The stone brute tears through single targets way faster than the BS scrapper. The scrapper of course has more aoe, but that is largely due to shield charge.
Comparing sets I'm likely to play is relevant to me on a personal level. I have no interest in elec melee, so I don't really care that scrappers are better with it. It is worth mentioning they are better with it during 10 second intervals and because their version of L-rod is vastly superior.
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| Edit: Just ran through another mish, the only time I got my fury bar up was when I didn't use Whirling hands and grabbed two groups, I guess stunning the minions was taking away from me gaining fury, I am still left with a bad taste on brutes, seems as though as brutes need large mobs and less mitigation to gain more damage, I am unimpressed you can call it a victory if you want to, but my scrapper comes with no strings attached. |
I spam fault like it is going out of style because I have the FF+rech proc in it and because Elec armor feels like tissue paper at times. I breeze through missions with high fury the entire time with numbers that look exactly what Billz posted in combat and between combat.
Granted I usually have my settings a lot higher than 0/x3 largely because of what fault lets me do, but I changed it to that because I figured even low mitigation sets like most scrappers have can handle 0/x3 and I wanted to give representation of what might be more typical.
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| Attack and keep it moving, motto of Brutes |
*I don't want to log in and watch you play, but I'll gladly watch a vid clip because it will show me the interface and allow a much better understanding of what is going wrong.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Just ran two more missions. I generally sit between 80 and 90% fury, almost never going past 90%. Moving between spawns, I'll drop to 60% fury. I'm back up to 80% before the first baddie hits the floor.
I can conservatively state that on this level 24, now 25, character, using energy melee, while in combat my average fury is 80%, perhaps even 85%. Therefore: My brutes win. |
The idea that fury is a difficult thing to attain and keep is just not true. Any decent player should be able to stay between 60-70% fury without any effort at all outside of attacking enemies, which means any decent player will get better performance out of a brute than a scrapper in more instances than not. It's not a massive, game breaking advantage, but it's an advantage none the less.
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Originally Posted by Da_Captain
Attack and keep it moving, motto of Scrappers
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Ironically, that motto works better for brutes, lol.
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Might explain a bit since you are on 0/x3 and I am on /x2, Like I said Brutes need certain conditions to do more damage, On a team with doms/trollers, even one, A brute wouldn't be able to sustain the necessary 75% that your calculations are derived from. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
I'm not really sure what to tell you. I'm playing stone melee right now. Fault alone provides more mitigation than many armor sets and it does it at the cost of complete fury contribution shut down from the enemy. Billz and I both posted almost the exact same independent fury numbers when facing 0/x3 going from 0 fury upward. I spam fault like it is going out of style because I have the FF+rech proc in it and because Elec armor feels like tissue paper at times. I breeze through missions with high fury the entire time with numbers that look exactly what Billz posted in combat and between combat. Granted I usually have my settings a lot higher than 0/x3 largely because of what fault lets me do, but I changed it to that because I figured even low mitigation sets like most scrappers have can handle 0/x3 and I wanted to give representation of what might be more typical. |
Edit: Played on /x3 settings, and yeah it was real easy to stay above 70% or even capped, but when I ran it on /x2 settings again like I said I barely stayed at 60% and on /x1 settings I think I only hit 60% as I was delivering the final blow to the last enemy in the group. Unimpressed, because if your build isn't able to take on /x3 mobs solo then you will have issues achieving the allotted totals, which isn't fair for calculation because a beginner isn't going to know to take tough and weave or how to IO properly, sure some builds can take on /x3 without the fighting pool or IOs but not all, and I think calculations should be place on what the whole AT can do a base 0/x1 settings.
Of course a solo Brute that can take on /x3 or higher is going to deliver more damage than a scrapper on average, because you are playing to the advantage of the AT, the thing is being able to survive that difficulty. Letting a noob see this would give them the wrong taste because if they are playing as I was, on something lower than /x3 then they aren't going to get what is shown on the results.
I guess it was kind of something like that, that gave me the bad taste I kinda already have about Brutes, When I started in Mercy I ran the streets killing any and everything and fury didn't drop past 80 if that, but once I did my first mish, I couldn't get it up to 50, I felt lied to. And on teams it felt worse. I like the fact that some like the Fury mechanic, but it and Brutes just ain't my cup of tea. My Scrappers shred 1 or 100 they all are the same.
I already pointed out that brutes are better the more enemies there are, my arguement is that Scraps are at their full potential all the time and brutes need certain conditions like mish settings for one.
Why would one want to have /x1 settings? More reasons than you believe.
1. Not that experienced in the game and learning to play
2. Wanting to run an Oro Arc real quick trying to gain merits as fast as possible
3. Taking on a certain type of mob that you don't want the room to be full of (Malta, Carnies, Nemesis)
When you need to hunt a certain mob on a map your Fury isn't going to be 75% the whole time when you are looking for them.
Seriously too many conditions for the 75% to be considered average Fury.
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fixed. I have absolutely nothing against scrappers. I've ran 2 to 50 now and have 3 in the 40's at this point. But if you are actually playing your scrapper like this quote says then you will have no issues attaining fury numbers like Billz and I are saying. Either you don't play scrappers very aggressively, which is fine, but important to know because it will directly impact your brute experience. Or something else is going wrong. *I don't want to log in and watch you play, but I'll gladly watch a vid clip because it will show me the interface and allow a much better understanding of what is going wrong. |
I like Brutes, but I think saying they do more damage than Scrappers is misleading, like a bad phone company.
Brutes are stronger than Scrappers Just as long as...
You are soloing at /x3 or higher
You make sure to get to your next group as fast as you can
Pick certain powers so you can have an attack chain that keeps your fury up
You try to team with as few doms and trollers as possible (defintiely want to stay away from Fire)
Don't do any arcs with hunts in them
Don't team with Tanks
Seems a bit misleading to me.
On average considering everything you can do in this game, 75% fury isn't that if it has requirements, Average is something the AT does on average in any condition, not certain conditions. Which is why Scraps are stronger, They are at Full Strength in all Conditions.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
I take it I need to get a screen shot of my brute at x1 difficulty with 175% damage buff from fury?
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False. They crit against minions only 5% of the time. The crit against higher ranks 10% of the time. They have less base hitpoints. They have a lower damage cap. They have lower mitigation caps.| Which is why Scraps are stronger, They are at Full Strength in all Conditions. |
A brute unable to get and maintain 75% fury is a brute built and played poorly.
Be well, people of CoH.
Just my 2 cents on energy melee brutes.
My 'main' and favorite brute is EM/Dark, built for as many status effects as possible. (I call it my smashtroller.) The idea for its playstyle was to remove as much enemy fire as possible. (Just because I love smashing the helpless. <insert even laugh here.>)
This character by all outside indications should ride at low fury consistently, but this isn't the case. My average soloing at full clip is around 80% fury, easily. (This is even when I 'dumb him down' to +1x2, over his usual +1x6)
The trick to making EM/ work for brutes is to focus on using heavy hitters with the least waste, while constantly going back to the faster attacks as fury filler and finishers. The big damage attacks do far too much damage to be used on a minion at 10% health, they most often go to the lieut/boss, or smacking down undamaged minions. Using this style you can maintain full fury progress with ease, don't waste recharge/endurance doing a total focus on a nearly dead foe, and attack often enough that your enemies' attacks are just gravy fury-wise.
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Video if you could please, because I don't see it happening unless you herd up the whole map, In which time my scrapper could just run through the map killing everything while you are gathering fuel for your Fury|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I take it I need to get a screen shot of my brute at x1 difficulty with 175% damage buff from fury?
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| False. They crit against minions only 5% of the time. The crit against higher ranks 10% of the time. And most sets have a power that Crits 15% all the time They have less base hitpoints. They have a lower damage cap, but higher base damage. They have lower mitigation caps. |
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| A brute unable to get and maintain 75% fury is a brute built and played poorly. |
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
Interestingly enough Da Captain, the old mission settings let you vary between spawns set for 1 or spawns set for 2. It may sound crazy but brutes were crushing content back then too.
I know I used the example of 0/3x (and probably Billz) because it is very easy for any brute to survive that difficulty and I find that is the point where fury is a total non-issue. It is always very high as long as you play through the mission at a reasonable pace.
Lower settings than that and you do have to work a bit for fury, but still nothing like you are describing. It is still very easy to maintain over 75% fury even with team setting of 1.
But it raises the question of why would you want to play on such low settings. That isn't very scrapper like or brute like. Both AT's have enough survivability to turn the settings up higher and higher. IMO the difficulty slider was put in especially for these two AT's.
And no, doms/trollers don't sap you of fury. If that were true my fault spamming would be pretty counteractive to what I'm trying to do (kill things). Well they can if you hang back and let them run the show, but if you are doing that you probably shouldn't be playing a brute or a scrapper. Either AT with solid control at their back should be cranked up into overdrive because you just gained a massive boost in survivability. Work as a team, not a bunch of individuals in the same vicinity.
Agro hungry tanks can put a dent in fury, that has been my experience as well. What I find works well in that situation is to either alternate being the agro sponge (easy enough to maintain high fury with every second alpha and just your attacks in between), or to actually split up into two groups and complete the task way faster because with a brute and a tank you usually have way more agro control and team survivability than is warranted for single spawns.
It's no different than saying an aoe immob spamming troller will negate my earth/storm. Sure they can if we decide to play as individuals, but if we play as a team it is a non-issue.
Ok, at this point, Duh Capn is spewing so much idiocy that I'm getting annoyed.
Scrapper damage buff cap: 400
Brute damage buff cap: 750
Back to Claws (This time, actually READ THE WORDS and make an ATTEMPT at understanding them.)
Claws attack chain: Followup, Slash, Focus, Strike.
Scrapper:
Base damage of chain: 287.285
Buffs: Max buff 400%
Total damage of chain: 287.285*(1+4) = 1436.425
Brute:
Base damage of chain: 209.958
Buffs: Max buff 750%
Total damage of chain: 209.958*(1+7.5) = 1784.643
The brute wins by 350 points of damage PER CHAIN. EDIT: Left off the AVERAGE 7.5% crit rate for scrappers. Bumps the scrapper total to 1544.157. The brute only wins by 240.486 damage per chain.
Brutes don't sit at 75% fury between missions? No ****, Sherlock. I'll quote myself again since you don't bother reading posts:
Quote:
FURY DOESN'T MATTER WHEN YOU'RE NOT IN COMBAT|
Moving between spawns, I'll drop to 60% fury. I'm back up to 80% before the first baddie hits the floor. I can conservatively state that on this level 24, now 25, character, using energy melee, while in combat my average fury is 80%, perhaps even 85%. |
It takes me 2 enemies to get warmed up. Once I'm there, I'll drop to 60% fury between spawns and get back up to 80% before the first enemy in the next spawn falls to the floor.
Do you understand the the problem is YOURS? Learn to use brawl, EP and barrage more. I also use boxing right now, but only because I plan to have tough/weave. It won't be in my chain at all once I get more recharge in my attacks.
Be well, people of CoH.
[QUOTE=Frosticus;2803444]Interestingly enough Da Captain, the old mission settings let you vary between spawns set for 1 or spawns set for 2. It may sound crazy but brutes were crushing content back then too.[QUOTE]
I ain't saying brutes can't be powerhouses, and I am not trying to call them a poor AT, the only thing I have been saying this whole time is that math done on this was at a brute being at 75% fury, I just don't believe that is something that is average enough to do research on, I think something more like 50% - 60% is about average.
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Oh when I build, I build to take on /x8 solo, I know in those instances a brute would definitely outshine a scrap. But as I said before...|
I know I used the example of 0/3x (and probably Billz) because it is very easy for any brute to survive that difficulty and I find that is the point where fury is a total non-issue. It is always very high as long as you play through the mission at a reasonable pace. Lower settings than that and you do have to work a bit for fury, but still nothing like you are describing. It is still very easy to maintain over 75% fury even with team setting of 1. But it raises the question of why would you want to play on such low settings. That isn't very scrapper like or brute like. Both AT's have enough survivability to turn the settings up higher and higher. IMO the difficulty slider was put in especially for these two AT's. |
Quote:
|
Why would one want to have /x1 settings? More reasons than you believe. 1. Not that experienced in the game and learning to play 2. Wanting to run an Oro Arc real quick trying to gain merits as fast as possible 3. Taking on a certain type of mob that you don't want the room to be full of (Malta, Carnies, Nemesis) |
These current equations are under the assumption that a player is building to take on higher levels of diff, when we need to conduct research on base principals, not what considered easy to some, but what we know is easy to all, because what is not difficult for you could be difficult to others.
Quote:
|
And no, doms/trollers don't sap you of fury. If that were true my fault spamming would be pretty counteractive to what I'm trying to do (kill things). Well they can if you hang back and let them run the show, but if you are doing that you probably shouldn't be playing a brute or a scrapper. Either AT with solid control at their back should be cranked up into overdrive because you just gained a massive boost in survivability. Work as a team, not a bunch of individuals in the same vicinity. Agro hungry tanks can put a dent in fury, that has been my experience as well. What I find works well in that situation is to either alternate being the agro sponge (easy enough to maintain high fury with every second alpha and just your attacks in between), or to actually split up into two groups and complete the task way faster because with a brute and a tank you usually have way more agro control and team survivability than is warranted for single spawns. It's no different than saying an aoe immob spamming troller will negate my earth/storm. Sure they can if we decide to play as individuals, but if we play as a team it is a non-issue. |
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
Quote:
I'll see if I have a copy of Fraps lying around somewhere, I don't have it on my pc at the moment.|
Originally Posted by Da_Captain
Video if you could please, because I don't see it happening unless you herd up the whole map, In which time my scrapper could just run through the map killing everything while you are gathering fuel for your Fury
|
Quote:
| And most sets have a power that Crits 15% all the time |
Quote:
| Edited for left out information and it's funny how you mention that they have a higher damage cap and if both ATs reach their respected caps Scrappers would deal more damage, even with a higher cap they don't outdamage scrappers. If both were on a team with a Kin, Scrapper damage would be more than a brute. Brutes need an extra 350% damage in order for them to do somewhat close to what a Scrapper does at it's cap. |
no crit = 82.6*5 = 413
vs minion = 82.6*5*1.05 = 433.65
vs luts+ = 82.6*5*1.1 = 454.3
brute smite at cap:
55.1*8.5= 468.35
The numbers aren't supporting what you are saying as 468 > what the scrapper does
It also says nothing of the super attacks like KO blow, or ET
at cap
KO blow = 148.5*8.5 = 1262.25
ET = 190.2*8.5 = 1616.7
For reference a Headsplitter critical at cap (hardest hitting attack available to scrappers with critical) = 1627, which will only occur 15% of the time and will just as likely result in massive overkill on a minion as it will be put to good use on a boss/lut
Quote:
| Again, brutes don't start with 75%, You are ignoring that fact more than anything and if there isn't enough mobs it will be hard to attain it, while Scrappers need nothing. You can't maintain 75% when you are going from mish to mish, You can keep it when you are going from group to group and the next group isn't that close, You can't keep it when there aren't a lot of mobs around, does that make you a poor player? |
Look, a lot of players can leverage the fury system very well, that is because it is very easy to do. Yes there are times it can be difficult to excel with, but the vast majority of the time it isn't. If you actively seek situations that your brute struggles with then that is your prerogative. I seek situations my brute excels in. It just so happens that is almost the entire game.
Scrapper lock = Fury
As said before Fury requires a lot of attention and Scraps are always at full, Brutes are like Vegeta having to work and keep that fury up to match the damage of a Scrap, and Scraps are like Goku, not having to work as hard to maintain high DPS
(Too Tired, DBZ reference)
Maybe I'm sleepy.
Brutes only need 64% fury to equate to scrapper average damage?
The extra 26% or so fury, puts them how far ahead?
What happens with say, +100% outside damage buffs?
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp