What's the downside to the AE thing?
By
Acyl,
Posted on: 2009-05-18 15:04 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I actually thought about it a bit.
The fact that it doesn't really have any significant downsides may be the most problematic aspect of MA.
If we have a system that can pretty much mimic(and exceed) most dev created content in terms of storytelling and easily accessible missions, what's the real incentive for players to NOT use it all the time?
My current concern is that if Going Rogue simply offers some extra missions and contacts and some new zones, but doesn't expand the gameplay aspects of COX beyond the scope of what we have here, then there's not much point to new content really.
MA is an odd creature in my mind. I've used it(and do continue to use it), created an arc (120531) and come to an interesting conclusion.
MA simultaneously showcases the potential of COX while at the same time exposing its relatively shallow mission system. No matter how great a story you weave into an MA arc...your limitations are still the same as the content we've gotten so far. You can't really create new and interesting aspects of gameplay. Nor can you expand it. You can't create cool in-mission mini-games. You can't make the environment more interactive or critical to a mission. And the list goes on.
While I'm not anti-MA, I'm still not convinced it was the shot in the arm this game needed. It's a nice tool and funish toy...but it truthfully does not expand the game.
In the same manner that Day Jobs feels like an unfinished implementation(what we should have is a full secret identity skill system)...I think that MA content still has the feel of leaving me wanting more from the game. I can't fault the great stories I've played in the MA so far...but its still the lather-rinse-repeat formula that the devs have yet to break up by adding something truly new to the game thus far.
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If we have a system that can pretty much mimic(and exceed) most dev created content in terms of storytelling and easily accessible missions, what's the real incentive for players to NOT use it all the time?
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Because while it CAN does that, most of the time it does NOT. The number of really lousy story arcs vastly exceeds the number of well crafted ones.
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MA simultaneously showcases the potential of COX while at the same time exposing its relatively shallow mission system. No matter how great a story you weave into an MA arc...your limitations are still the same as the content we've gotten so far. You can't really create new and interesting aspects of gameplay.
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...yet.
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While I'm not anti-MA, I'm still not convinced it was the shot in the arm this game needed. It's a nice tool and funish toy...but it truthfully does not expand the game.
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It's completely revitalized my interest in the game. I'm sure I'm not alone.
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In the same manner that Day Jobs feels like an unfinished implementation(what we should have is a full secret identity skill system)
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That's been hinted at. However, the day jobs offering a means of offline character progression in the interim is, well, nice. It's not amazing or game defining... but it's nice. And wouldn't you rather have that UNTIL we get a secret identity system than not? Wouldn't you? I would.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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GAH! Your optimism annoys me no end!
And incidentally:
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Because while it CAN does that, most of the time it does NOT. The number of really lousy story arcs vastly exceeds the number of well crafted ones.
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That's a problem that will simply solve itself. Loads of crappy stuff will be made...but now and then good arcs will get added. In time we will reach a point where the decent content in MA exceeds or approaches the quantity of stuff in the game. All the while it still won't address fundamental shortcomings of the COX game system.
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...yet.
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And yet...we still don't know if this is even something being addressed.
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It's completely revitalized my interest in the game. I'm sure I'm not alone.
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It made everyone take notice. I already said that I use it and made content with it. But the long term appeal of it to me is questionable. And probably to lots of other folks as well.
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That's been hinted at. However, the day jobs offering a means of offline character progression in the interim is, well...'
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FLUFF. Don't be afraid to say it with me. Additional badges and maybe, sometimes, possibly useful temporary buffs aren't progression. We did NOT need patrol xp. Its a passive gameplay system which *gasp* needs no actual gameplay. I'm sure people just went wild with the logging off and looked forward to not playing even more...
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And wouldn't you rather have that UNTIL we get a secret identity system than not? Wouldn't you?
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I'd just rather have the secret identity system now thanks. If I happen to log off in a dayjob location...fine. It hasn't revitalized or revolutionized my game experience.
The developers have done a lot of great work on this game in the past several issues...but it seems like a lot of things are still being danced around. If Going Rogue really does offer something deeper than just switching sides and pretty new scenery, then MA will fit nicely into the game instead of overshadowing it and exposing its paper-thin parts.
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Besides mission completion XP/Inf, there's arc XP/inf rewards (they can be - relatively - huge at the lower levels), patrol XP doesn't work in MA, and no Merits awarded. There's also no purple recipe drops.
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You missed at least 1 more... While they may be old, tired, and content that players have done countless times you can't earn the badges needed for the accolades that increase HP, End, Etc . Only place to get those is in the "old"game. And while there are a LOT of badges associated with the AE for those serious badgers out there they still need the old content to get the vast majority of the available badges. Opps that was 2 huh? lol 
I have taken to sort of mixing it up some AE and some regular missions, TF, etc. I DO LOVE buying enhancements with tickets and not using a cent of influence to upgrade my characters. Have done so with several now and they are growing richer and richer as they continue doing TFs,and everything else.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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Also, you get banned if you use it.
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YOU'RE NOT HELPING!!! 
Dec out.
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FLUFF. Don't be afraid to say it with me. Additional badges and maybe, sometimes, possibly useful temporary buffs aren't progression. We did NOT need patrol xp. Its a passive gameplay system which *gasp* needs no actual gameplay. I'm sure people just went wild with the logging off and looked forward to not playing even more...
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Actually, it was kind of nice to have the 50 or so toons I hardly touch any more to actually have "something to do". 
Dec out.
Remember that the AE is meant to supplement existing content, not replace it. It was made as a storytelling device, and if you're not interested in the stories and fluff, there's little point in using it.
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Also, if you level up in the AE, you'll miss a lot of badges and the accolade powers that come with them. You'll miss opening up Ouroboros and the Midnight Club and unlocking hidden contacts (redside) and TFs (blueside).
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ProTip for getting Oro without leaving the MA building:
"hey, can someone drop an Oro portal for me?"
Hop through and get the badge.
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But after you leave Ouroboros, you won't be in the AE building anymore. Then you'll have to, like, travel back to it. That's tooooooo haaaaaaaaard.
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Dang, hadn't thought of that!
=(
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It was such a great plan. It worked right up until it didn't.
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Load up an AE mission, use oro portal, then use mission teleporter. Solved.
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Remember that the AE is meant to supplement existing content, not replace it. It was made as a storytelling device, and if you're not interested in the stories and fluff, there's little point in using it.
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Actually, I think the point here is that there is a whole lot of point to using it. You don't actually need to run the other game content at all. You still get rewards and xp(often better xp) like the regular game missions. And you don't have to move an inch to get to your next mission or contact.
In that sense, it may not be much better than regular game content...but its a lot more convenient and regular game content offers little above what the MA can do. Your mission objectives are still the same, your mission environments are still the same(actually, you are more likely to see a mission map that you haven't seen before within MA).
It's possible to even recreate the content that's in the game now using MA and make it less annoying. You can use smaller maps and break up the monotony by using some custom enemies or bosses.
So in a very real sense, MA has made the actual game content very easy to ignore.
I made a post a while back before MA came out that basically said that they should have worked on expanding our core game BEFORE unleashing MA on COX. Why are missions in a game as simple as Freedom force still more interesting than what we have in COX? It's been 5 years...its time to up the ante.
I guess I am . . .okay . . . I know I am weird; but I LIKE the travel in this game. We get to FLY, or the other lesser travel powers, that is one of the best parts of the whole game to me!
Now don't get me wrong, I dislike the silly FedEx talk to missions as much as everyone; but the general travelling, flying as a super hero to the rescue, that never gets old to me.
The thing I miss the most if I stand around too long in an AE building is the sense of wonder at being able to FLY. So the simple thing for me is to walk out the upper floor doors . . . step to the edge . . . and it's UP UP and.... SEE YA! 
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MA simultaneously showcases the potential of COX while at the same time exposing its relatively shallow mission system. No matter how great a story you weave into an MA arc...your limitations are still the same as the content we've gotten so far. You can't really create new and interesting aspects of gameplay.
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...yet.
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'Yet'?
Slashman is right in both the above quoted text and the post directly above this one. The only way they can address the limitations of MA is to completely overhaul the base game design.
Let's be honest, we have a grand total of 5 types of missions: Kill All, Kill Boss, Recover Object, Destroy Object, Kidnap/Rescue. That's it. You can rearrange these 5 types within an arc as much as you like, but, at the end of the day, that's all you have.
Wouldn't it be nice to have missions where you have to actually do more detailed things? Solve puzzles, for example. Or rely on powers like stealth to have a team member stealth through an area to have to complete an objective for you?
However, to allow more types of missions and more diverse sub-missions like these would require getting all the way down to the core of the game.
I can understand why they haven't done this as of yet, but the first glimmer of hope that the core gameplay may change is with Going Rogue, and we have no idea when that may actually come out.
MA is a fun toy, but when all is said and done, the only thing that makes it stand out is when someone creates a great, engrossing story.. because despite the story, the missions are still nothing but Kill All, Kill Boss, Collect Object, Destroy Object, Kidnap/Rescue.
Partial Character List:
LENINA 198-DELTA - 50+3 DP/Kin Corruptor (Main) / Captiosus - 50+3 Energy/Energy Blaster
Highlands.Hellraiser - 50+1 DS/Fire Tanker / SpazRat - 50 Claw/SR Stalker
Col. Gregor Aktaybr - 45 Robots/Time MM
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If we have a system that can pretty much mimic(and exceed) most dev created content in terms of storytelling and easily accessible missions, what's the real incentive for players to NOT use it all the time?
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That it doesn't do that in the slightest? Seriously, where do people keep finding these Architect arcs that exceed developer-made content in terms of quality? Because I looked, and I can't find them anywhere. I've tried high-ranked, I've tried low-ranked, I've tried developers' choice, I've tried by recommendation. I've seen a handful of good ones and a whole sea of arcs I'd rather not comment. I might get a few corny jokes or some in-your-face comedy if I'm lucky, and that's a pretty bleak prospect. If I'm not lucky, I end up on such gems that make me regret ever setting foot inside the Architect building.
Seriously, I mean that. It's gotten to the point where I start feeling uneasy as soon as I see the inside of that damn place. I've almost never left with a good experience, not even after making MY OWN arc. Pretty much every time, I leave thanking all the gods that I can set foot outside again, and usually spend a good five minutes just being happy to be ANYWHERE but there.
That's the sum total of the downside. It may be a mechanically superior way to play the game and earn rewards, but it's so awful to play more often than not that it's plain not worth going through it. I guess if all I ever played were 50-54 missions, things might be different. Too bad.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I guess I am . . .okay . . . I know I am weird; but I LIKE the travel in this game. We get to FLY, or the other lesser travel powers, that is one of the best parts of the whole game to me!
Now don't get me wrong, I dislike the silly FedEx talk to missions as much as everyone; but the general travelling, flying as a super hero to the rescue, that never gets old to me.
The thing I miss the most if I stand around too long in an AE building is the sense of wonder at being able to FLY. So the simple thing for me is to walk out the upper floor doors . . . step to the edge . . . and it's UP UP and.... SEE YA!
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I love travel powers too! And I love to sightsee etc. The thing is that a new player may not ever get to understand that part of the game if he isn't required to move around much.
As a vet player, you already understand what you like about the game you've been playing for a few years...the other people who are just getting used to it...not so much. So if someone says...don't bother to do much besides run MA stuff...that's what you might end up doing...invalidating the other game content along the way.
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Born in Battle is way more annoying to get than any blueside accolade in my opinion. Especially since I either A: play Masterminds or B: use defense sets over resistance sets. Seriously, after what, 4? Years of playing my first Mastermind I have yet to get born in battle.
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Not to mention that Force of Nature requires, what, 100 signature/safeguard hero kills? I don't think I've ever hit 50 with more than 15.
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That it doesn't do that in the slightest? Seriously, where do people keep finding these Architect arcs that exceed developer-made content in terms of quality? Because I looked, and I can't find them anywhere. I've tried high-ranked, I've tried low-ranked, I've tried developers' choice, I've tried by recommendation. I've seen a handful of good ones and a whole sea of arcs I'd rather not comment. I might get a few corny jokes or some in-your-face comedy if I'm lucky, and that's a pretty bleak prospect. If I'm not lucky, I end up on such gems that make me regret ever setting foot inside the Architect building.
Seriously, I mean that. It's gotten to the point where I start feeling uneasy as soon as I see the inside of that damn place. I've almost never left with a good experience, not even after making MY OWN arc. Pretty much every time, I leave thanking all the gods that I can set foot outside again, and usually spend a good five minutes just being happy to be ANYWHERE but there.
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Are you comparing them to the best dev arcs, or the average dev arcs? Because I've personally seen plenty of MA arcs that rival the brilliance of things like the Citadel Task Force ("Some Council guys stole my blueprints. Go beat up Council to learn more. Go beat up Council to learn more. Go beat up Council to learn more. Go beat up Council to learn more. Go beat up Council to learn more. Go beat up Council to learn more. Go beat up Council to learn more...") or any of the nine thousand 'Rescue Lawyers from the Devouring Earth' missions in the mid-30s heroside. Have any of them topped my favorite dev arcs? Not just yet. But the good ones seem to at least be on par with a LOT of content in the heroside game. Redside, it's a little shakier, but there are still some not-particularly-enrapturing arcs out there (Kristof Jaeger, the VEAT arcs, Vivacious Verandi...).
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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That it doesn't do that in the slightest? Seriously, where do people keep finding these Architect arcs that exceed developer-made content in terms of quality?
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Let me turn this around. Where do you find developer made content that takes your breath away with its wonderful storytelling?
Seriously. Some of the dev stuff is just plain weak. Sometimes its a decent story...but the arc drags on and on before it gets to the point with too large maps and not enough clues etc. Sometimes its just 'ok' stuff. Some things are great...like Faultline. Others are ho-hum...like the 'time travel' Council arc...Ubelmann or something like that.
Look...there are some absolute stinkers on MA. Lets not beat around the bush...but dev arcs have spelling errors and grammar errors...and some of it is just 'passable' writing.
I don't think my arc own arc is super wonderful...but its hopefully interesting enough that people will be interested in what happens next. I think that, given the limited nature of the mission system in the first place, thats the most you can hope for.
Weaving a wonderful story using the same 5 objectives is also quite tedious. There were things I would have liked to do in my arc that were just plain impossible. Aspects of the story that I would like to convey using the environment in the mission that I just can't do.
In any case...some of the dev choice stuff is decent. And Our SG had some fun running some of the arcs. Sorry if you're not finding writing that keeps you on the edge of your seat...but there probably isn't a budding Stephen King or Robert Ludlum among the community. Of course...there isn't one on the dev team either.
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Are you comparing them to the best dev arcs, or the average dev arcs? Because I've personally seen plenty of MA arcs that rival the brilliance of things like the Citadel Task Force ("Some Council guys stole my blueprints. Go beat up Council to learn more. Go beat up Council to learn more. Go beat up Council to learn more. Go beat up Council to learn more. Go beat up Council to learn more. Go beat up Council to learn more. Go beat up Council to learn more...") or any of the nine thousand 'Rescue Lawyers from the Devouring Earth' missions in the mid-30s heroside. Have any of them topped my favorite dev arcs? Not just yet. But the good ones seem to at least be on par with a LOT of content in the heroside game. Redside, it's a little shakier, but there are still some not-particularly-enrapturing arcs out there (Kristof Jaeger, the VEAT arcs, Vivacious Verandi...).
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Of course, I'm not expecting players to overtop the best developer arcs, if for no reason other than because the developers will always have better tools than the players even at the best of times. But if a developer arc annoys me, a player arc that annoys me only slightly less isn't going to make me jump for joy, especially with all the other stuff the Architect doesn't give out anyway.
Sure, I've seen good player arcs. The problem is they're so rare. It seems like everyone's trying to be oh-so-smart-and-witty, and everyone who isn't seems to come up with material on the level of thrill of To Save A Thousand Worlds or A Hero's Hero: "Hey, stuff is happening! Go to these five locations and beat up bad guys! Move!" And that's before we comment on people's compulsion to always cram their arcs full of the most absurdly overpowered custom critters they can think of, seemingly never interested in telling a story that has much of anything to do with either the City of Heroes or the City of Villains. And don't even get me started about how everyone's story is about their own characters, with their own characters making cameo appearances, and the factions led by their own characters serving as filler enemies.
Someone recommended Ascendant's Crom story arc to me, and I'm still sad I haven't gotten around to trying it. I remember his "I, Crom" story in the Roleplaying forums and I was excited to see it realised as an arc in-game. I just keep forgetting. But even things that look good on paper and start out with a good arc description seem to break down as soon as I set foot inside the first mission.
I tried playing Architect missions, I really did. The missions themselves are their own limiting factor.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Sure, I've seen good player arcs. The problem is they're so rare. It seems like everyone's trying to be oh-so-smart-and-witty, and everyone who isn't seems to come up with material on the level of thrill of To Save A Thousand Worlds or A Hero's Hero: "Hey, stuff is happening! Go to these five locations and beat up bad guys! Move!" And that's before we comment on people's compulsion to always cram their arcs full of the most absurdly overpowered custom critters they can think of, seemingly never interested in telling a story that has much of anything to do with either the City of Heroes or the City of Villains. And don't even get me started about how everyone's story is about their own characters, with their own characters making cameo appearances, and the factions led by their own characters serving as filler enemies.
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This is much more along the lines of my own experiences, yeah. On the custom enemies, well, I think a lot of people are using them for the potential novelty of fighting against brand-new enemy types with brand-new plothooks. Unfortunately, with the power setup, they're hard to balance and not really that interesting most of the time. Dev enemies give us stuff like sappers, comm officers, sorcerors, and snipers, who offer interesting tactical problems. You can't really reproduce those in MA. Custom factions being capped at about 14 enemies at an outside max doesn't really help, because it discourages giving a single minion type multiple models... and don't even get me started on the inability to put in one-per-spawn enemies like sappers. Using lots of custom enemies also seems to be very much correlated with that 'not even seeming like it's in the CoH universe' thing you mentioned. Really, if an arc is solely or even primarily custom enemies, I usually refuse to play it unless the description really grabs my interest.
That said, I'll stand behind some of the use of their own characters as the leaders of filler factions. When done well, it actually gives a face to them instead of just 'oh, hey, here are these other guys that need beat up.' (Which is kind of how the Knives of Artemis always come off in the canon material, to me.) The ever-common 'Oh, I'll come with you on this mission, since you'll never beat up [Archvillain!] without my help!' contacts are downright obnoxious, though.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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That said, I'll stand behind some of the use of their own characters as the leaders of filler factions. When done well, it actually gives a face to them instead of just 'oh, hey, here are these other guys that need beat up.' (Which is kind of how the Knives of Artemis always come off in the canon material, to me.)
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I'll agree here. The problem is moderation and implementation. I used one of my own characters in my story arc...and I tried to keep my one custom group interesting and reasonable to fight against. The size limit is also annoying sometimes...you have to sometimes choose to cut things that you'd like to include...even when that thing makes your story better.
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The ever-common 'Oh, I'll come with you on this mission, since you'll never beat up [Archvillain!] without my help!' contacts are downright obnoxious, though.
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This happens once in the last mission of the arc...but I don't think I overdid it any. It's not because you NEED help. You can always send feedback.
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Main downside to AE seems to be crappy threads on these forums and annoying broadcast spam in Atlas Park.
Remember that the AE is basically an official vehicle for fanfic.
You're playing fanfic.
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Remember that the AE is basically an official vehicle for fanfic.
You're playing fanfic.
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But with a slightly lower chance of finding out that Spock is somehow carrying Goku's baby.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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Remember that the AE is basically an official vehicle for fanfic.
You're playing fanfic.
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But with a slightly lower chance of finding out that Spock is somehow carrying Goku's baby.
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Slightly.
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Remember that the AE is basically an official vehicle for fanfic.
You're playing fanfic.
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But with a slightly lower chance of finding out that Spock is somehow carrying Goku's baby.
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Slightly.
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Wait! Are you saying that he ISN'T????
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The ever-common 'Oh, I'll come with you on this mission, since you'll never beat up [Archvillain!] without my help!' contacts are downright obnoxious, though.
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This happens once in the last mission of the arc...but I don't think I overdid it any. It's not because you NEED help. You can always send feedback.
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Hmm, I'm guilty of this as well. But I did it because I didn't want to be accused of having a lazy contact who wouldn't do things for herself - which honestly, some of the dev arc contacts totally are. I didn't realize I was contributing to a cliche. 
Storm Summoning is great because it makes you better than everyone else in the game. - Camma
Knockback is mitigation. It won't be removed just because meleers ***** and moan. - Chaos Creator
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You don't get recipes or common invention salvage. This becomes an issue at around level 32, when simple IOs become as good as even level SOs. It's fairly easy to keep your SOs updated with tickets, but you won't be replacing them with simple IOs, and thus spend money or tickets on their upkeep longer.
You are not getting badge missions or defeat badges in MA. This puts important accolades like Atlas Medallion harder to achieve. I recommend that you take time out around 23-28 to run the Moonfire task force a couple times, which usually helps a lot in getting your Slayer and Silver Bullet badges.
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I think I've gotten maybe two accolades on two of my characters in all my years playing this game.
Accolades aren't all that.
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Maybe you should get more. +20% HP or temporary +RES/DEF powers are really great and very useful. +20% HP helps way more than most people realize.
One of the reasons I stick to redside is that Portal Jockey, Task Force Commander, and Eye of the Magus are so annoying to obtain.
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Born in Battle is way more annoying to get than any blueside accolade in my opinion. Especially since I either A: play Masterminds or B: use defense sets over resistance sets. Seriously, after what, 4? Years of playing my first Mastermind I have yet to get born in battle.