Sounds nice but sort of throws off the whole balance of the EMP set. The healing powers are useful in the early game so having them available means an EMP can provide that sevice. While Fort and CM are essential later on in the early game most team mates can get by against the limited abilities of most villains they face as long as the EMP keeps their HP high. Frankly by the 30s and 40s I am using Fort and CM a LOT more and occasionally using Heal Other to manage that one one two team mates that are taking damage. I think the order was determined based on this fact and see no reason to switch it.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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Frankly by the 30s and 40s I am using Fort and CM a LOT more and occasionally using Heal Other to manage that one one two team mates that are taking damage.
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That's actually the whole point as to why I'm suggesting the change. It's a buff set and the order change makes that obvious. However with the plethora of healing powers early on, newer players think that it's CoH's version of the cleric/priest. And with the new retail box in stores, I have been seeing more new players, a lot of them with preconceived notions from other games.
As to your point about balance, I was worried more that having fort too early would make the set too powerful versus other comparable sets, rather than the heals being overly useful.
Mezzes are actually common even in low levels. Vahzilok bosses can be encountered at level 1 and they throw out stuns and immobilization with regularity. The Hollows contain Outcast Shockers at Bricks at level 5; the boss level ones will mez often. Other mezzing foes include Clockwork, Council and even Trolls.
My thought process is that with this power order, it wouldn't be odd to see less experienced players skip heal other entirely, after figuring out that the buffs in the set do more to counteract damage than playing whack-a-mole with the green bar with heal other.
Then again, the power order probably doesn't counteract the ever so popular healing aura on auto empath, but not having some sort of self heal at low levels seems too mean.
While having fortitude and clear mind at such low levels, the fact is that at those low levels the empath is far more in need of healing. The tank still has trouble keeping aggro and fortitude only protects one toon at a time pre-SO. Also it is at the lower levels that you will find yourself in need of resurrection far more. At higher levels you'll find that your healing isn't really as good as the other defender ATs heal, with howling twilight stunning and rezzing more people at once and mutation providing a boost. It is also far more likely at higer levels that players have enough inspirations to make their own wakies, something which may not always be easy when you have 10 inspirations for instance.
I'm also in the "leave it be" cam on this one.
Looking at the power selections from a character growth standpoint, they are a pretty logical order.
They go from reactive healing to a proactive buffing. Healing is great and all but the best way to keep the team upright is to limit the amount of damage that comes in in the fist place.
The only change I might be able to get behind is moving CM up to tier 3, then moving Fort and Rec Aura up one spot, and putting Absorb Pain at tier 7.
Edit cause I don't count good.
My first short story (detective fiction) came out in Jan-2012. Other stories and books to follow, I hope. Because of "real writing". COH was a big part of that happening.
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Frankly by the 30s and 40s I am using Fort and CM a LOT more and occasionally using Heal Other to manage that one one two team mates that are taking damage.
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That's actually the whole point as to why I'm suggesting the change. It's a buff set and the order change makes that obvious. . . .
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All Righty then . . . Let me get this straight. <ul type="square">[*]You admit that you understand that The order as it is, gives Emps the powers they need, at the points in their level-span, at the levels those powers are most useful.[*] . . .and you want to rearrange them so that the powers are NOT there at the levels they are useful.[*]and the purpose of this inefficient order, is to make a point to Emps, on how you want them to play their powers?[/list]OK....
. . . Got it.
.
There is nothing wrong with the set now, why try and change it.
Re arranging the order does not mean someone will change thier playstyle either.
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You admit that you understand that The order as it is, gives Emps the powers they need, at the points in their level-span, at the levels those powers are most useful
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Just want to point out that's not what I said. With that said, you're free to disagree. Just don't put words in my mouth.
Making Heal Other a higher-level power will probably just result in more aura rocking...
I think Empathy's transition from healing to buffing works really well.
At the low levels, enemies dont do enough spike damage to nearly one-shot anyone, so reactive healing works very well. Defence and resistance based powers are weaker because they havent been slotted or stacked with higher order powers yet.
In the high levels, healing alone becomes too slow and reactive when a squishy teammate can be dropped from full to red by a single blow from a boss. But buffs are now well slotted and stacking, so they're more effective.
People who wnat a healer for a sewer run in Atlas are actually quite right. A Force Fielder (as an example of a non-healing defender) will be dropping incoming damage by 1/3 at that point.
By the 20's though, a healer is much less relevant, and a FF-er can drop incoming damage by 95%
The assumption that "healing is the best thing at low levels" is unfounded. The only thing that changes at level 12 is that Fortitude becomes available -- there's nothing special about level 12 that makes a big damage, tohit, and defense buff better in most cases than heals. That happens at level 1. Nobody needs heals against Contaminated.
An even more vivid illustration: a starter combination of Healing Aura+Fortitude blows Healing Aura+Heal Other away. It's synergy instead of redundancy. See also Thermal Radiation, which starts off with a Warmth+Thermal Shield combo.
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The key buff powers come in the mid levels with clear mind available at 8, fortitude at 12 and recovery aura at 18.
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"Mid levels"? In terms of the lifespan of a character on the way to 50, the first 12 levels are over in a heartbeat.
I find the "problem" with Empathy for me is that the "skippable" powers come to soon when there are too few alternative choices. Swap Absorb Pain and Resurrect with Clear Mind and Fortitude and I would be a happy camper. I wouldn't feel like I was missing anything while taking the pre-reqs. for Stamina and a Travel Power or while building an attack chain.
One reason why there are so many blast free Empaths is that if you take, at each level, the best power available, you will be left without much of your secondary by the time your habits are setting and the pacing of levels slowing. Faced with the prospect of either respecing out of valuable powers, or a long grind until a slotted attack chain, most will stick with teams and explore power pools.
Producing a well rounded Empath requires some degree of forethought and self control or, as in my case, a stubborn insistance on being able to solo with the difficulty turned up.
I disagree with the characterization of the otherwise resulting play style as "bad". It's team dependent and less versatile, but still valuable to the team. I passionately disagree with the suggestion that it is "better", but we seem to have either won that argument, or at least scared off its proponents 
- Jock Tamson, Who finds very few of his heroes survive the prospect of levels 12 - 20. Boring prerequisites 
How about Absorb Pain at low levels with Heal Other coming in at 8 or so? That'll teach them to do other stuff than heal.
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
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How about Absorb Pain at low levels with Heal Other coming in at 8 or so? That'll teach them to do other stuff than heal.
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How about Absorb Pain as a toggle power? 
- Jock Tamson, Who has an evil mind.
I like the set as is minus absorb pain. Empathy is my fav set in game but i hate that power. At lower levesl they have the two heals because heals are what ya need. If you think back to sewer mishes from levels two through eight you dont really need clear mind or anything you just need constant heals.
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they have the two heals because heals are what ya need
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sewer mishes
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from levels two through eight
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you just need constant heals
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I, uh, couldn't agree more.
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You admit that you understand that The order as it is, gives Emps the powers they need, at the points in their level-span, at the levels those powers are most useful
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Just want to point out that's not what I said. With that said, you're free to disagree. Just don't put words in my mouth.
[/ QUOTE ] Well, No. I used your words.. The reason it is unclear is that you cut out the first part of Wendy's quote.
I'll throw in some carriage returns and bold, for clarity, but Wendy said:
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Sounds nice but sort of throws off the whole balance of the EMP set.
The healing powers are useful [u]in the early game[u] so having them available means an EMP can provide that sevice.
While Fort and CM are essential [u]later on,[u]
in the early game most team mates can get by against the limited abilities of most villains they face as long as the EMP keeps their HP high.
Frankly by the 30s and 40s I am using Fort and CM a LOT more and occasionally using Heal Other to manage that one one two team mates that are taking damage.
I think the order was determined based on this fact and see no reason to switch it.
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Boiled down, Wendy said:
* Heals are useful in the early game.
* Buffs are useful in later game
* That is why they are ordered this way... no change needed
You quoted the [u]buffs are useful later[u] part, and immediately said:
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That's actually the whole point as to why I'm suggesting the change. It's a buff set and the order change makes that obvious. . . .
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[u]You didn't deny any of what Wendy said,
and said "That's the point."[u]
I can't come to any other conclusion than: <ul type="square">[*]You admit that you understand that The order as it is, gives Emps the powers they need, at the points in their level-span, at the levels those powers are most useful.[*] . . .and you want to rearrange them so that the powers are NOT there at the levels they are useful.[*]and the purpose of this inefficient order, is to make a point to Emps, on how you want them to play their powers?[/list].
Forum games for the lose. I'll boil this down for you so even you can understand:
1. I said that the order of empathy encourage bad play.
2. Wendy said that the balance of empathy would be disrupted if the order was changed.
3. I said that the change in order would emphasize that it's primarily a buff set.
4. I however NEVER stated that the I agreed with her assertion that the order in which the powers come are optimal. I only agreed that the order *I* suggested would emphasize it's a buff set.
Why in the heck would I even contradict myself in the first place by proposing a change in order and then later agree that the order as it is now was optimal? If I thought they were optimal now, why would I even propose a change?
Learn to read. Please. And stop using that Bizarro world logic that puts words in people's mouths.
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[u]You didn't deny any of what Wendy said,
and said "That's the point."[u]
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Because I don't blatantly deny what she said, you take it as tacit agreement. Word lawyering at its finest.
You've lost any sort of credibility with me because you're one of those types that just makes stuff up to make their case better. Nice try.
Argue the merits of my proposal. Fine. If you dislike it. Say so. But do it on an evaluation of the proposal not word sophistry.
Oh and by the way, the whole underline bold thing makes you look real classy. Next time try all caps.
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The assumption that "healing is the best thing at low levels" is unfounded. The only thing that changes at level 12 is that Fortitude becomes available -- there's nothing special about level 12 that makes a big damage, tohit, and defense buff better in most cases than heals. That happens at level 1. Nobody needs heals against Contaminated.
An even more vivid illustration: a starter combination of Healing Aura+Fortitude blows Healing Aura+Heal Other away. It's synergy instead of redundancy. See also Thermal Radiation, which starts off with a Warmth+Thermal Shield combo.
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Well, for a Force Fielder, two things do happen at level 12. One is you get Dispersion Bubble to stack with your ally shields. The other is Dual Origin enhancements.
At level 11 you're providing maybe 17% Defence. Suddenly this jumps to maybe 19% + 12% = 31% ie becomes almost twice as effective. Meanwhile, your tank and scrapper allies may be picking up new defence shield powers that further stack.
Defence and Resistance both stack in a kind of asymptotic way - the closer you get to the cap the better each increment becomes. The downside of this is that Defence and resistance powers alone without healing tend to be a bit rubbish at very low levels, like before level 12.
Healing on the other hand, just gets wasted if it goes over a certain limit.
And as I said, healing's main weakness is spike damage, which incrases later in the game.
I agree that no-one needs heals against Contaminated.
No-one needs anything against them. But against Damned and Eidelons in the sewers, I've always found a Healing Aura to keep a team alive better than the bare bones 15% Defence from Force Fields or 20% Damage Res from Sonics.
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[u]You didn't deny any of what Wendy said,
and said "That's the point."[u]
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Because I don't blatantly deny what she said, you take it as tacit agreement. Word lawyering at its finest.
You've lost any sort of credibility with me because you're one of those types that just makes stuff up to make their case better. Nice try.
Argue the merits of my proposal. Fine. If you dislike it. Say so. But do it on an evaluation of the proposal not word sophistry.
Oh and by the way, the whole underline bold thing makes you look real classy. Next time try all caps.
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No, emps are fine as is.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
no
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
Leave my Emps alone... mmkay thanks
I was struck by an idea from another thread that suggested that because of power order in empathy it encouraged bad play.
Current order:
Lvl 1 - Healing Aura
Lvl 1 - Heal Other
Lvl 2 - Absorb Pain
Lvl 6 - Resurrect
Lvl 8 - Clear Mind
Lvl 12 - Fortitude
Lvl 18 - Recovery Aura
Lvl 26 - Regeneration Aura
Lvl 32 - Adrenaline Boost
In the current power order, empaths *are* healers at lower levels, because that's what they have available. The key buff powers come in the mid levels with clear mind available at 8, fortitude at 12 and recovery aura at 18.
What if they reordered the powers this way:
Lvl 1 - Healing Aura
Lvl 1 - Fortitude
Lvl 2 - Clear Mind
Lvl 6 - Absorb Pain
Lvl 8 - Heal Other
Lvl 12 - Recovery Aura
Lvl 18 - Resurrect
Lvl 26 - Regeneration Aura
Lvl 32 - Adrenaline Boost
Yes, providing fortitude that early is a little powerful, since you're providing force field level defenses and a significant damage boost. However, I think it's balanced from the stand point that the recharge is 60 seconds.
I'm not sure whether or not a reorder of powers will make a difference to players who don't realize that the empathy power set is a buff set, but I am convinced that the current power order does contribute to the healer mentality.