Blur the lines - Ranged tanks, brutes, and more
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2009-05-12 11:15 in Suggestions and Ideas
Blurring the lines between ATs just defeats the point of having ATs. Making the set annoying in order to make it come close to being balanced is hardly an optimal solution.
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
I tend to agree but expect to hear the term "tank mage" bandied about (referring to characters with both significant ranged damage and high survivability).
This was identified as undesirable in the early phases of the game's design and that principle hasn't moved much since.
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
Too many people would want to play the ubertoons, and some would wind up with uberwimps. Thus: not fun.
Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
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Are ATs so desirable in the first place? I was under the impression that most people were already in favor of freedom in character designs, and that archetypes were just an arbitrary approach to character creation for the sake of simplicity and game balance.
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Are ATs so desirable in the first place? I was under the impression that most people were already in favor of freedom in character designs, and that archetypes were just an arbitrary approach to character creation for the sake of simplicity and game balance.
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Your second sentence answers your first.
I also don't know of any comic book character that is both superhumanly tough and uses big, explosive weapons. The closest would be War Machine, but that's not exactly the same thing. Lobo, maybe?
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
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Are ATs so desirable in the first place? I was under the impression that most people were already in favor of freedom in character designs, and that archetypes were just an arbitrary approach to character creation for the sake of simplicity and game balance.
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Most people, if given the choice, would make the most uber character they could, and then quit the game because it was too easy.
Game balance, in the sense of making sure that players make characters with some holes in them, means that they stick around longer. It wasn't an arbitrary choice. The Devs saw what happened during the Alpha test of the game, where people did make Tank-Mages that made the game's content trivial, while also opening the door for people to create characters that were unplayably weak.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Are ATs so desirable in the first place? I was under the impression that most people were already in favor of freedom in character designs, and that archetypes were just an arbitrary approach to character creation for the sake of simplicity and game balance.
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Your second sentence answers your first.
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Cute. Now bother to explain how giving tanks a mindfully-designed ranged set with both advantages and disadvantages would throw off game balance.
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Are ATs so desirable in the first place? I was under the impression that most people were already in favor of freedom in character designs, and that archetypes were just an arbitrary approach to character creation for the sake of simplicity and game balance.
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Your second sentence answers your first.
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Cute. Now bother to explain how giving tanks a mindfully-designed ranged set with both advantages and disadvantages would throw off game balance.
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The disadvantages required to make the set balanced would also make it not very fun to play.
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
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The disadvantages required to make the set balanced would also make it not very fun to play.
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Hmm. I guess that's more a matter of opinion, and would be true in some cases. I personally wouldn't mind being a little slow and even not being able to build fury as well as a melee brute if it meant just... having something different and new.
But what you said about there not being many comic book heroes fitting the profile is probably true. Then again, I'm not too sure that's ever been a concern with CoX. I'm still wondering how fiery healing ever came into play...
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The disadvantages required to make the set balanced would also make it not very fun to play.
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Hmm. I guess that's more a matter of opinion, and would be true in some cases. I personally wouldn't mind being a little slow and even not being able to build fury as well as a melee brute if it meant just... having something different and new.
But what you said about there not being many comic book heroes fitting the profile is probably true. Then again, I'm not too sure that's ever been a concern with CoX. I'm still wondering how fiery healing ever came into play...
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Because it's an mmo.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
It's not really a matter of opinion, it's a matter of "that's how they tried it in Alpha of this game and it didn't work/wasn't good".
YOU might not mind "being slower" but most people would, and some as I said, would wind up with ubergimps unable to actually play at all.
With the AT system, at least it's possible for everyone to have a good time, without it being at the expense of someone else's.
Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
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Actually, given a goodly amount of Global Recharge, you can kind of make a Blaster Brute. SS/ELA/Mu is probably the likeliest candidate for this, though other combinations can do it too.
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
OR you can just play a Stormie.
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
I have a Tank that accidentally became Ranged when he had the same number of Ranged attacks as he did Melee, counting The Nemesis VetStaff, Hurl, and both attacks from Energy Mastery.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
I thought of an AT idea a while back (only got 75%-ish done, so never posted it) that would have Melee-type Defences, but a mix of ranged and melee attacks.
The attempt to balance it was:
1) It wouldn't have very high HP.
2) The Melee attacks would be mostly Smashing/Lethal, while the Ranged attacks would have a mostly Energy component and..........
3) All of the Defensive toggles would have a Self DeBuff to outgoing Energy Damage. So to do good ranged damage you would have to turn off your toggles. With toggles having an activation time, you couldn't just shoot and instantly be at full defences.
Oh! It just occured to me that I overlooked a build I'm actually running. I consider it the 'smart man's Blaster'. That is to start from either a Spines or Claws Scrapper. Spines has huge advantages in Damage Type and a proper Build Up, but Claws recharges faster. Add the Dark APP for 3 extra ranged attacks if you will include Torrent. Either way, without Global Recharge Bonus you can almost juggle your eventual two ST Blasts. If you can't, throw in a Cone. Rinse, Repeat. Go with Super Reflexes and get Hasten for best Rech before any IO Set Bonus.
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
Two words, tankmage and gimp. That is why the anamorphic skills system the game was originally created with was changed to a archetype power system. That is the way it should remain.
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I'm still wondering how fiery healing ever came into play...
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I wonder that but amusingly there is a precedent. Roy Mustang.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
After numerous searches, I was surprised to not find anything about this. Please let me know if I'm repeating someone else, though. My apologies in advance. I'm just a long-time lurker finally stepping out to post.
Anyway, why is it that if you're a tank, you're automatically melee? Why does putting a gun in your hand automatically make your chin turn to glass? Where are the heavy-weapon-wielding toughguys?
I'm going to keep this short and sweet. I think tanks and brutes need a "heavy weapons" power set. Take something like a big, honkin' rocket launcher, and give it powers that range from firing basic concussive missiles, to firing napalm bombs, big, arcing, devastating "mortar" AoE bombs, micro-missile swarms, and perhaps even a special beam cannon blast, and let a Tank have it.
Now, that may sound like it'd cause balance problems. Letting a Tanker have something he could consistently kite with would be a horrible thing. But, this is a type of power set that would really call for long cast times, long root times, and maybe even an interruptable attack. The result would be a slow, but heavy-hitting, highly satisfying ranged set that brings true diversity to the Tank and Brute lineup. It could also bring new meaning to the term "nuke"...
Comments or specific ideas?