Is PLing Detrimental to the City of Heroes?
By
10100101,
Posted on: 2009-05-06 12:57 in Mission Architect
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Hi,
Your character levelling up is of interest to you, and you alone. However, the side effects of that levelling up are felt by a wider audience.
If you get up to level 50 and start playing with a character you have no experience of, you will have lower skill with that toon. This affects the people you team with.
But you only solo or play with your SG who also PL and know what to expect. Fine.
But if you have an SG who competes with other SGs to be the "best" if you use low risk methods to get high rewards, you force the people who you are competing with to either lose or use the same techniques you are using to remain competitive. This affects their gameplay experience.
But you don't compete with other SGs anyway. Fine.
All you do is use low risk high reward methods to level up characters to play, and maybe to get a bit of extra inf to buy the good loot. Which affects everyone who uses the in game economy to buy things, forcing them to do the same high reward low risk dull as ditchwater (in their opinion) content in order to compete for the enhancements they want.
The way I see it, its a balance issue. If there is a way for you to get xp, and influence, and tickets that is significantly better than any other way it reduces the overall pool of players who will play non-optimal content because it is fun. You doing the power levelling affects the entire game whether you like it or not.
By balancing risk vs reward across all content in the game, the developers seek to encourage people to play a wide variety of content. That is what the MA is about, more content and more diversity. By abusing the system to break the risk vs reward balance you end up unintentionally messing it up for another large group of people who also pay money every month.
That is why some people, get annoyed at PLers and the explosion of PLing the MA seems to have brought.
Cheers,
Conker
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This is a specious argument. You assume that people who are not power leveled are automatically "the best." That's just not so. I've seen people with 48 month vet badges run the worst defenders I've ever seen or run tanks that are as squishy as my blaster. Some people just have rotten hand-eye coordination, a bad internet connection, have no idea what to do or how to do it with a particular AT, don't know their left from their right, or whatever else.
Some people play this game for fun, and for some people being the "best" isn't fun, it's pressure and work that they'd rather not deal with. Sure, some people are totally awesome on numerous ATs, but I'm not so sure that's the norm.
If someone is not up to your standards, don't assume they PL'd, just make a little note on them and give them the appropriate star so you'll know them when you see them again, and move on.
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If you consider 5 hours per level "quick"
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You miss the point--it's not about "quick". It's about balance. Know why there are more Scrappers than Controllers? Balance. A level 50 Controller is a lot better (and rarer) than a level 50 Scrapper.
Why do you think that is?
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But it doesn't "allow for quick leveling." Quick leveling is getting to 50 in 250 hours.
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I have a hard time believing people take 250 hours to get to 50 (I've certainly never heard of it except on forums). Saying 250 hours is quick leveling...?! Now that is just insane.
What do you do, chat under Atlas' statue, fight on heroic and die three times a mission, farm TFs / PVP at low level ? I'm sorry, but I just can't believe it.
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A level 50 Controller is a lot better (and rarer) than a level 50 Scrapper.
Why do you think that is?
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There's a lot more level 50 controllers than any other AT on Freedom, Infinity and Triumph everytime I do a search for these ATs at level 50...
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Infinity
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My character is on Infinity. So it's a small world. After all.
I totally agree with you. We "pay" the same amount as everyone else, more so if your someone that buys all the new content they offer. We as the consumer should play the game anyway we fit, given the parameters that the devs have layed out for us. After all, it is we the people who "pay" all those salaries of the game makers. I shouldnt be told how to play a game, just like the dealership doesnt tell you how to drive that car you are buying from them. Great point, many more should stand up and not follow in line like the sheep they are...repeat after me people, I will play the game only the way I want to play. I dont care if you PL or Farm or whatever
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1. Make note that, as I have stated previously, I am not arguing against the recent "nerfs". As far as I am concerned, they are well within the realm of balance. I'm not arguing against a slight rebalancing of farming, but against the elitist viewpoint of "BAN ALL FARMING!"
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Fair enough.
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2. Your extreme example is just that: extreme. Nonetheless, I agree with you that "free" stuff just isn't as valuable in the opinion of the holder as "earned" stuff. That being said, farming is not free stuff. I am still earning my experience, influence and tickets in a way consistent with the mechanics of the game. If I choose to do so in a slightly different (and more rewarding, in my own opinion) manner than you, I fail to see the problem.
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Once again - back to the theoretical "average player" - my claim is that they will burn out faster, not because of difficulty, but because of a percieved "this is too easy and thus not worth my time" attitude.
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3A. If the player is more attracted to farming than experiencing the game "as it was meant to be experienced" (according to certain people), then (s)he was unlikely to show a great deal of interest in the storytelling depth of the game to begin with.
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Because people are inherantly selfish, greedy, and short-sighted - if there's a way they percieve as being so much better at achieving their goals, they'll take it even if it's not innately enjoyable for them, and even if this behavior is destructive to them in the long term.
When the descrepency between playstyles becomes large enough, more people will PL, even if playing the game "normally" will give them greater returns in the long run for their enjoyment.
And as an aside - it's specifically about PLing - if farming didn't give a significantly higher ROI than doing something else, I don't think the devs would have a problem with people playing the same mission over and over again.
But really, my claim here is based on the assumption that I know the real desires of the playerbase better than they do. Which, based on 34 years of real life experience and 10,000 years of human history, my observation is that people will shoot themselves in the foot if they think it will serve their short-term interest, at the expense of long-term viability.
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And on an unrelated note, let's not dress the game up as more than it is. As much "story" as the game has, it's still just a few paragraphs before you trudge to the same door to kill the same mobs on the same maps. I postulate that "your" playstyle also constitutes farming, just in a more text-filled manner.
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Death of a thousand qualifications - you just defined 'farming' as 'playing the game'. If that's the case, then there is no way for the word to have any meaning.
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3B. If a player who reaches level 50 gets burnt out very shortly thereafter, that is not the fault of the player nor of the farming. It is the fault of a lack of endgame content.
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Well, if by "fault"you mean "they put the effort into making the journey more interesting than the destination". It was explicitly stated that they wanted to avoid percieved mistakes in EverQuest, where, from what I understand, the game didn't "really" start until you hit the endgame - which made for a whole series of problems in terms of game design.
So it seems like what you're saying is that some players want to skip the content of the game...and then they complain about having no content to play. Well, yeah - the game was originally desigined to keep people from feeling obligated to do that. Did they succeed in doing so? I think so, at least intermitedently.
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Now mind you, this problem has been dealt a significant blow with the advent of custom arcs, but there is still a lack of what many players assume to be "mandatory" content such as raiding. While City of X is a great game and a perfect fit for some people, it's certainly not a catch-all.
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Yes. Some gamers like raiding. CoX was not specifically designed for it - although bases were added for a sort-of high-level "Team Fortress" effect, that didn't really take off very well.
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On a contradictory note, I theorize that I can show you as many former players who unsubscribed due to the "tedium" of leveling early on as you can show me due to "burnt out 50s".
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Both are pathos, or arguments of intuition (ie, we're both saying "it seems like" or "I would imagine that"). However, pathos is trumped by ethos, or arguments of authority. The developers have explicitly stated that they don't care for farming (as your original claim reminds us), which means that the folks who have the data in hand are agreeing more with me than with you. Thus, ethos seems to be on my side.
But really? This is me retro-fitting a theoretical reason as to why the developers would act this way. And my theory? Money. Which is usually a pretty good guess. Your claim is that it would make more economic sense to do it a different way. OK, but mine fits the actions of the developers more closely than yours does.
Now, a potential modification to your claim is that the developers are stupid and/or acting out of jealousy or anger of people playing the game in a way that they don't want them to. Well, that's certianly possible - they've made what seem to be mistakes in the past that have hurt their membership (such as the changes to PvP.) However, ultimately this game is still here - which means they seem to know SOMETHING about keeping customers.
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4. While guarantees would indeed be nice, nothing can be guaranteed in any direction. Such is the consequence of life's spontaneity. What I can say, however, is that I see no direct harm to your playstyle (and the life of the game in general) due to farming. As I have stated previously, farming helps the economy, helps new players reach experienced mentors faster, and gives players access to higher-level content they otherwise might not have had. Also, while you state that after acquiring a "farmed" 50 players will be less interested in the game, I feel that the opposite is true. After I acquired my first 50, my immediate reaction was "That was fun! Now I can start considering what kind of character I want to try next."
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Then I'll reiterate - average gamers will take to farming for the short-term benefit and then burn themselves out faster than by playing through the content the way the developers intended to, and so the developers are taking steps to reduce that burnout.
This is supposition on both our parts, but my supposition is supported by the actions of the developers, and requires only that they want to make money. What does your model require of them? I would say Occam's Razor supports mine more than yours.
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But it doesn't "allow for quick leveling." Quick leveling is getting to 50 in 250 hours.
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I have a hard time believing people take 250 hours to get to 50 (I've certainly never heard of it except on forums). Saying 250 hours is quick leveling...?! Now that is just insane.
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Used to be that people too 300, 400, 500 hours to hit 50 and post about it on the forums. Things have speeded up since then, I know. But no, I'm not talking about chatting under Atlas, neither am I talking about power-leveling. I'm talking about social play.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
To me, the best, and perhaps the only salient argument that I have run across that actually provides a solid non-emotional response to the question you posed was brought forth by Arcanaville.
As we all know, the devs do very little in this game in regard to changes without first datamining to discover what may be lurking beneath the surface. When it comes to leveling speed and average XP gain, those streams of data are skewed (probably quite heavily at the moment) by "curve breakers." You know the ones... people who did amazing on tests and therefore the teacher didn't feel the need to add as many extra points to the exam scores. In this case, PLing skews the XP curve, and thereby may tell the devs incorrect information.
What this comes down to, is simple: future XP smoothing or content that is added to certain level ranges may be done so in a way that does not help players like me who do not PL (and like a good percentage of the playerbase I would wager).
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However, if the heavy-handed threats made by Positron are carried out (direct banning of farming, retroactive punishment, etc.), I assure you that you'll find no further word from me.
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Positron did not threaten direct banning of farming. He threatened direct banning of "extreme" abuses of the system. There's a difference. That's the point that most people with a negative reaction to his post seem to be missing. He specified the most extreme cases, not farming in general.
If he hadn't brought up removing characters that had been powerleveled with extreme speed, there probably would not be nearly the uproar we're seeing here.
But if you read closely, it sounds like they're only going after the *most* abusive examples. And they should -- quickly and aggressively.
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i dont even understand why ppl are so against PL.
i pay the same amount as you if i want to level faster i have the right.
What difference does it make how fast i level? am i removing content from other players or obstructing other players from playing by doing so? No...
[/ QUOTE ] To be honest, the biggest reason why PLing is 'wrong' as far as this game goes is as simple as, "Because the devs said so," really. I don't know that I've ever played a MMO that encouraged PLing. Most of them at least eventually ended up nerfing the common PL spots somehow.
I don't really think that CO will be any more accepting of PLing than CoH is, but you never know I suppose.
As far as the OP goes, I don't agree with you, but I'm really tired right now and lack the ability to respond to you very coherently, my apologies. It really is an interesting look at the matter though.
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Question. At what point does it stop being simply efficient/voracious play and become PL?
I mean, I think we can agree that levelling in 6-8 hours might be on the excessive side. But where exactly is the line to be drawn?
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Now, when you limit yourself to only farming AE missions, you remove yourself from everything else in the game. That means if I want to do something else, if I want to team for something else, I can't do it because you're farming AE's.
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Oh no. You didn't just make this type of argument!
If someone wishes to solo, this is entirely permissible in the game. AE is simply another outlet for this.
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So now if I want to play with you--I have to farm AEs because that's all you're doing. Oh, sure, I can hold out and not farm AEs...by myself.
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OR you could look for other people in the game who aren't farming. Same as you always did pre-AE when people were doing the SAME DAMN THING in PI.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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But it doesn't "allow for quick leveling." Quick leveling is getting to 50 in 250 hours.
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I have a hard time believing people take 250 hours to get to 50 (I've certainly never heard of it except on forums). Saying 250 hours is quick leveling...?! Now that is just insane.
What do you do, chat under Atlas' statue, fight on heroic and die three times a mission, farm TFs / PVP at low level ? I'm sorry, but I just can't believe it.
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A level 50 Controller is a lot better (and rarer) than a level 50 Scrapper.
Why do you think that is?
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There's a lot more level 50 controllers than any other AT on Freedom, Infinity and Triumph every time I do a search for these ATs at level 50...
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It took me 9 months of subscription to get my first 50. I have no idea how many hours that breaks down to be (I did after all spend a bunch of that 9 months on alts), but I would tend to guess that the estimated hours could be about right in my case.
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This seems like a very selfish argument. "I don't want you to farm because then you're not filling spots on MY team doing what I want!"
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It's not a selfish argument because before MA, you were, in fact filling out my team. There was a middle ground where people farmed, but most people just played. And I'll guess you were in the "just play" group...which meant you teamed with me, and roleplayers, and noobs and (probably) someone's mom.
That doesn't happen now. The balance has shifted to farming, and the fence sitters (people who "just play") have gone to farming and that's about 75-80% of the population.
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Your argument IS selfish, as you want someone to not be able to do what they want so they will come and play with YOU. I find that's absurd, and I'm on Posi's side of this. There's plenty of other reasons to be against farming and PLing than that it affects people wanting to team with you personally. That's just sour grapes.
Dec out.
Agreed.
(BTW, Hi neighbor... I'm in Grand Rapids.)
This may or may not be the best place for this, but I want to get it off my chest.
I, for one, would enjoy being able to level a character to 50 without having to jump through hoops or grind for possibly months. Even if I were to powerlevel a character, it would be so I could enjoy the same content I've already played with a different character in a different role.
-- Example as follows --
My main toon is a rad/ice defender. Debuffs, slows, all that fun stuff. I love playing it, and enjoying high-level content like task forces and whatnot. Now say I want to play the same content, but instead I'd rather play as a blaster, or a tanker, and not my defender. The way my life works, it would take me upwards of a couple months of regular, daily playing (after real-life issues, let's be realistic) in order to get to that high level content, just to get put off on bad pugs, the same rehashed arcs/radios/etc. If I am determined to get a character to that high level content range, it will happen. However, once I've made the journey to 50 a few times, doing it again just to play as a different AT seems more of a chore and less of an adventure.
-- Example ends --
I'm not saying give me an "I win" button so I can hit the 2bil inf cap on all my toons and have all the purple and PvP recipes with a huge base and 500 character slots with the ability to make a new toon fully decked out at 50 from the start, but I would like to have an option to play my characters through and get to the higher level content without having to put up with the suck that is fire control before imps, or stone armor before granite. Sure, learning to play the AT is part of the game, but there are some people who are quick learners. I believe that some people farm/PL simply to skip portions of the game they do not find interesting.
I'm all for fixing the exploits like the level 42 comm officers. I'm not for just threatening retroactive smite for those who want to play certain portions of the game without it feeling like an uphill battle. I've learned the game on both sides. I've played a character from 1-50 on both sides, more than once. Why should I make a new character that I intend to play in high level content, only to wind up having to grind uphill and repeat the same old snakes or clockwork missions? If anything, repeating the same slow 1-50 journey makes me want to play the newer characters less than the higher level ones.
I have had some ideas about how to implement these sorts of things while maintaining a sense of balance in the cosmos, but I would much rather communicate my ideas with a member of the development team, rather than tossing them out to the wild. I'd want to brainstorm with the development team so that I could hope to finally get a clear vision on how they feel we should play this game.
That's my 2inf. I'm off to my day job location to work on my insomniac badge.
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I totally agree with you. We "pay" the same amount as everyone else, more so if your someone that buys all the new content they offer. We as the consumer should play the game anyway we fit, given the parameters that the devs have layed out for us. After all, it is we the people who "pay" all those salaries of the game makers. I shouldnt be told how to play a game, just like the dealership doesnt tell you how to drive that car you are buying from them. Great point, many more should stand up and not follow in line like the sheep they are...repeat after me people, I will play the game only the way I want to play. I dont care if you PL or Farm or whatever
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This post made me lol
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Agreed.
(BTW, Hi neighbor... I'm in Grand Rapids.)
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**throws rock, hits Thirty7's property**
And on the 50 note, it took me over 800 hours to get Dec there, but I did spend a lot of time standing around BSing in various locations. 
Dec out.
In olden days, a lot of people would power-level by sitting at the mission door, or tagging along ineffectually, just mooching XP. This would result in a high-level character who didn't know what all of their powers did, or how to use them. AE made it even faster, thus producing even more of these high-level, yet ineffective, characters.
Last night, when all the power-leveled characters realized AE wouldn't give them their XP fix anymore and started creeping into "normal mission teams," I teamed with:
- an empathy defender who had NO IDEA that he could heal other people
- a blaster who would launch his area-effects over and over, and then complain when he died because no one rooted the mobs (We had no controller, and tried to explain this)
- a tanker who didn't even train taunt, and then yelled at everyone else for stealing his aggro
Having said that, though, I want to state that I don't care how you play the game. It's your money. But if you join my high-level group and don't know how to play your character, expect to get booted. It's not a punishment for power-leveling. It's just that I'd rather spend my $15 a month playing the game, not teaching someone else how to play.
It is really simple, the game has too steep an exp grind combined with missions that put you in the same environment over and over again. I came back and paid for a month of play after being away for years, and I enjoyed the fast levelling pace of farm missions because it meant that I wanted to level I could do so and when I wanted to play story missions I could do so. I had the choice of how I wanted to play.
I am still waiting for the dust to settle so I can see how the changes will work out, but if I have to go back to the old ways of slow grinding in the same old locations then I will cut off my subscription again and Cryptic will lose my money.
It is my opinion that Cryptic's enforcement of their Vision (tm) will ultimately mean a loss of customers for them, and a diminished revenue stream.
It's not really grinding when you're playing missions with people. It's just not. The Devs don't intend running your contact's mission arc in Talos to be punitive.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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I've played a character from 1-50 on both sides, more than once. Why should I make a new character that I intend to play in high level content, only to wind up having to grind uphill and repeat the same old snakes or clockwork missions? If anything, repeating the same slow 1-50 journey makes me want to play the newer characters less than the higher level ones.
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Oh honestly! What do you think the Mission Architect was built for? As if the Mission Architect provides no mission, story, or new enemy content from 1 to 49?!
And are you just gonna solo content at 50? Because if your just a Power Leveled character with no player experience behind that character I would not want you on any team I am on! There is a vast chasm between a P.L.ed Player and a Player who has taken their lumps and put in the time behind a Character which can become very apparent, very quickly on a Team setting.
Instant Gratification is not the norm, nor should it be. 
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To me, the best, and perhaps the only salient argument that I have run across that actually provides a solid non-emotional response to the question you posed was brought forth by Arcanaville.
As we all know, the devs do very little in this game in regard to changes without first datamining to discover what may be lurking beneath the surface. When it comes to leveling speed and average XP gain, those streams of data are skewed (probably quite heavily at the moment) by "curve breakers." You know the ones... people who did amazing on tests and therefore the teacher didn't feel the need to add as many extra points to the exam scores. In this case, PLing skews the XP curve, and thereby may tell the devs incorrect information.
What this comes down to, is simple: future XP smoothing or content that is added to certain level ranges may be done so in a way that does not help players like me who do not PL (and like a good percentage of the playerbase I would wager).
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I've refuted this one before, with the caveat that I'm certainly no computer programmer.
The datamining should present a range of leveling speeds, true, but PLing will appear on a graph or chart as a rather large spike. It wouldn't take an Einstein to account for these spikes in leveling speed when he was working out the leveling curve.
Now, if for some reason they only sample one or two players, or conversely cannot look at individual data at all, then my answer falls flat, but I do not believe that would be the case.
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Oh honestly! What do you think the Mission Architect was built for? As if the Mission Architect provides no mission, story, or new enemy content from 1 to 49?!
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Go to warehouse click glowie
Go to cave destroy object
Go to cave kill everything including that one stuck in the wall so you can't target it.
Go to out door map kill everything and click glowies (Wow a real iconoclast here)
Yep new and innovative for sure.
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Go to warehouse click glowie
Go to cave destroy object
Go to cave kill everything including that one stuck in the wall so you can't target it.
Go to out door map kill everything and click glowies (Wow a real iconoclast here)
Yep new and innovative for sure.
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Sounds to me like you're bored with the entire game itself, given all missions official or MA based use similar objectives.
For that matter, you're probably bored with MMORPGs in general, given other games also have Go Here Kill These Guys, or Kill X Of These Guys, or Go Here Click This Thing.
New hobby, maybe?
Global @Twoflower / MA Creator & Pro Indie Game Developer.
Mission Architect Works: DIY Laser Moonbase (Dev Choice!), An Internship in the Fine Art of Revenge (2009 MA Award Winner!) and many more! Plus Brand New Arcs for Issue 21!
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Something has been bothering me since this mornings patch and subsequent post by Positron.
The patching of a feature (or exploit, depending on whom you question) that allows for quick leveling
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But it doesn't "allow for quick leveling." Quick leveling is getting to 50 in 250 hours. AE farming completely breaks leveling up as an idea....replaces it with "I have another 50 in an afternoon." It's so far from any reasonable definition of "quick" leveling that it's like calling World War II a disagreement.
Since you started the thread with that spin, it's pretty clear what your take on it is.
The Devs are gonna do what they feel is best, regardless of what we say here. If anyone is actually listening, of course replacing the game with story-free instant 50s is bad for the game; that's self-evident.
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If you consider 5 hours per level "quick", I shudder to think what your definition of "slow" is. Indeed, traditional freak/bm/TV farming is a great deal faster than that. While I agree with you that "a 50 in an afternoon" is a bit too fast, people shouldn't be forced devote inordinate amounts of time to the endeavor, either. What exactly is inordinate? Well, that seems to be the million dollar question.
This is not a signature.