peacemind

Interesting that you mention the hardware, I'm running Win 7 64-bit on an unlocked Radeon 6950 on 11.6 drivers. I'm currently upgrading to 11.7, and if it does not resolve the crash I will try turning down water detail and seeing how that changes things. Thanks for the tip!

Any further word on this issue, yet?

Gonna put my two cents in here...I've been farming with fire/ss/earth for awhile and really like it, for a few reasons:

-Quick sand keeps enemies in burn patches
-Stalagmites gives you one more AoE to throw around
-Salt Crystals is a good "oh ****" power if you get overwhelmed and everything else is on cooldown.

I can handle BM farm +2/+5 solo without breaking a sweat, and have done BM +2 8-man spawns solo successfully, just a bit slower. Other upside is that it's a cheap build...mine uses mostly old Hammie-Os and a few cheap IO sets (doctored wounds, efficacy adapter, stuff around that price) for some recharge, and runs quite well.

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the problem is you cant cant actually soft cap your pets like you can in thugs.

you can put on them i think 17.9% range/melee/aoe from the single shields, another 11% i think it is from disperson bubble and thy have 7.5% each i think and that's not enhanceable right? add 5% edict of the master bonus and that's only 41.4%

have you considered doing a thugs/ff tankermind? you could soft cap them without a single io.

edit: NEVERMIND..4.1% more from manuevers caps 'em. totally didnt see that.

however i would recommend you consider team teleport as your movement power. it's going to be pretty important to keep them all in your dispersion bubble.

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You're Not Doing It Right (tm). My nin/ff at lvl 44 has all pets soft-capped; ST bubbles, Disp bubble, Maneuvers, Edict, and Innate defense all well-slotted make win.

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Something has been bothering me since this morning’s patch and subsequent post by Positron.

The patching of a feature (or exploit, depending on whom you question) that allows for quick leveling

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But it doesn't "allow for quick leveling." Quick leveling is getting to 50 in 250 hours. AE farming completely breaks leveling up as an idea....replaces it with "I have another 50 in an afternoon." It's so far from any reasonable definition of "quick" leveling that it's like calling World War II a disagreement.

Since you started the thread with that spin, it's pretty clear what your take on it is.

The Devs are gonna do what they feel is best, regardless of what we say here. If anyone is actually listening, of course replacing the game with story-free instant 50s is bad for the game; that's self-evident.

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If you consider 5 hours per level "quick", I shudder to think what your definition of "slow" is. Indeed, traditional freak/bm/TV farming is a great deal faster than that. While I agree with you that "a 50 in an afternoon" is a bit too fast, people shouldn't be forced devote inordinate amounts of time to the endeavor, either. What exactly is inordinate? Well, that seems to be the million dollar question.

*sigh* Can we at least attempt to stay on topic here? Seriously, if you'd like to make this into an argument with me, at least have the politeness to move it to personal messages, so that the thread isn't derailed any further than it already has been.

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And I say again...stop misquoting me!

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Uh...everything I quoted you wrote. Don't like your own words? Stop writing.

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Yes, but just as omission of truth is lying, omission of half of a sentence is misquoting. You cannot pick out half of a person's sentence, pretend that it is a whole sentence (and thus has a different meaning), and then reply to that. At least, you cannot if you expect anyone to take you seriously (and we all know that Internet forums are "serious business").

However, getting back to the OP,

I feel your pain. When the mission architect first came out I was groping for several of the same features you complain are missing. All I can say is either stick it out until Issue 15 (when Mish Architect gets the shiny new things the devs couldn't stuff into Issue 14) or deactivate and wait until 15 to try again. Regardless, you should definitely play Issue 15 though

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Again I ask...why can't we all just get along? Why can't I farm in peace, while you run your arcs in peace? There is no answer to be given that cannot be seen as selfish by the players demanding more fillers for their arcs. Honestly, at least farmers have the good manners to politely request fillers rather than ask that your playstyle be banned so that you'll fill.

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Try this one on for size: developers nerf farming because people vote with their dollars, and if farming is too easy then a majority of people who do it will leave soon after mastering it. Therefore, developers need to make farming only slightly more effective (and yet less story-oriented) than doing regular content, in order to keep individuals playing the game longer.

As an extreme example, this is the same reason why there's no "I WIN" button in the game that auto-levels you to lvl 50, automatically granting you every possible badge available, and making you invunerable to every possible attack and giving you infinite influence. if there was (or something like that), then most people would walk into the game, hit it, play for a few hours, and then cancel their subscriptions.

In contrast, there IS the opposite extreme, where you can choose to not level at all and instead go for nothing but story. However, even there you still have to play out the content, thereby 'forcing' the pure story-oriented player to draw out their time, thereby extending their accounts.

That being said, there are some people who play this game ONLY for figuring out the most effective way to level. And there are others who are here ONLY for the story elements. Most folks are somewhere in between - wanting to see reasonable advancement through moderately interesting story content. So its the developer's job to find the point of diminishing returns: that point on the curve whereby they keep the game JUUUUSSSTTT interesting enough to keep people from quitting.

In other words: I want to nerf your playstyle because the average user will find your playstyle (pure xp) attractive in the short-term, but will get bored of it more quickly and leave, then they will of my playstyle (story+xp). This, in turn, affects the overall long-term popularity of the game.

If you can guarentee me that the farming, as it stands now, is creating sustainable player base? then I will support you and your position wholeheartadly. Pesonally though, I'm going to rely on human nature, and assume that most people will find that anything gotten for free will soon be discarded as worthless.

Now, are there people who, in the face of not being able to farm their way, will quit and thus reduce the health of the game by their absence? Yes. But it's my claim that in terms of person-months, enough accounts will be extended to make up for the loss of however many months those who left prematurely would have paid.

For example - you're still here, which means the change wasn't enough to get you to quit. Which means that, at least with you as a target, the developers are right: they're reduced your ability to play, but as a consequence you're likely to play longer because of it. Or at leat that's what they're betting on.

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1. Make note that, as I have stated previously, I am not arguing against the recent "nerfs". As far as I am concerned, they are well within the realm of balance. I'm not arguing against a slight rebalancing of farming, but against the elitist viewpoint of "BAN ALL FARMING!"

2. Your extreme example is just that: extreme. Nonetheless, I agree with you that "free" stuff just isn't as valuable in the opinion of the holder as "earned" stuff. That being said, farming is not free stuff. I am still earning my experience, influence and tickets in a way consistent with the mechanics of the game. If I choose to do so in a slightly different (and more rewarding, in my own opinion) manner than you, I fail to see the problem.

3. You make the point that the "average player" will A. be more attracted to "my" playstyle than "yours" and B: become burnt out shortly thereafter leaving the game.

3A. If the player is more attracted to farming than experiencing the game "as it was meant to be experienced" (according to certain people), then (s)he was unlikely to show a great deal of interest in the storytelling depth of the game to begin with.

And on an unrelated note, let's not dress the game up as more than it is. As much "story" as the game has, it's still just a few paragraphs before you trudge to the same door to kill the same mobs on the same maps. I postulate that "your" playstyle also constitutes farming, just in a more text-filled manner.

3B. If a player who reaches level 50 gets burnt out very shortly thereafter, that is not the fault of the player nor of the farming. It is the fault of a lack of endgame content. Now mind you, this problem has been dealt a significant blow with the advent of custom arcs, but there is still a lack of what many players assume to be "mandatory" content such as raiding. While City of X is a great game and a perfect fit for some people, it's certainly not a catch-all.

On a contradictory note, I theorize that I can show you as many former players who unsubscribed due to the "tedium" of leveling early on as you can show me due to "burnt out 50s".

4. While guarantees would indeed be nice, nothing can be guaranteed in any direction. Such is the consequence of life's spontaneity. What I can say, however, is that I see no direct harm to your playstyle (and the life of the game in general) due to farming. As I have stated previously, farming helps the economy, helps new players reach experienced mentors faster, and gives players access to higher-level content they otherwise might not have had. Also, while you state that after acquiring a "farmed" 50 players will be less interested in the game, I feel that the opposite is true. After I acquired my first 50, my immediate reaction was "That was fun! Now I can start considering what kind of character I want to try next."

5. Yes, I'm still here, because as stated I feel that the "nerfs" were primarily a balance that needed to be made. However, if the heavy-handed threats made by Positron are carried out (direct banning of farming, retroactive punishment, etc.), I assure you that you'll find no further word from me.

QR

Apples and oranges. While I give you credit for trying desperately to make a connection, you are grasping at straws which simply aren't there.

And I say again...stop misquoting me!

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Again I ask...why

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Well it's before and after. What were players doing before, and what are they doing after? You and I can argue about it, but the devs have the hard numbers. And I think they see it's warped.

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If you're going to take excerpts from a post, be sure to take the entire excerpt so as not to use it out of context (as I'm sure you didn't mean to in this case). I point out that, as no numbers have been presented (or even spoken of by the devs), your statement is once again opinion (although cleverly stated to appear as fact).

Now please, if you feel the need to quote and reply to my posts, don't take a small piece, use it out of context, and just reply to that. It's quite tedious.

EDIT: And as a second point...why is it bad that players are using the new feature? Isn't the idea of adding a new feature to the game that it will be used? When Willpower and Dual Blades were added to the game, the disproportionate number of DB/WP scrappers seen running about wasn't taken as a sign that these sets must be overpowered, and should be banned so that players would go back to using "traditional" powersets. You cannot resists change for the sake of it.

QR

I fail to see how your comparison of the Illiad to the MA has ANY bearing on the original post.

Did Homer see other people using words that he was not given access to because they were not in his dictionary? Did he, perhaps, have to deal with aforementioned people occasionally removing words from his dictionary because they did not like them (thus forcing him to re-write everything thus far due to the 'invalidation' of these words in the already-written work)? No, I thought not.

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Regardless of how you spin your opinion

Are we also to ban story missions in the Architect because they reduce the amount of players for "traditional" arcs?

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Oh I love the MA. I think it's a great tool for whatever--story, farms, personal arcs, SG arcs, or just goofing around.

However, you have to be blind to not see that this affects the rest of the game. And, I think, out of all the choices, farming should be done away with--it'll make everything else better.

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Again I ask...why can't we all just get along? Why can't I farm in peace, while you run your arcs in peace? There is no answer to be given that cannot be seen as selfish by the players demanding more fillers for their arcs. Honestly, at least farmers have the good manners to politely request fillers rather than ask that your playstyle be banned so that you'll fill.

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I was one of the many hardworking individuals providing free Battle Maiden farms to players in need.

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And that was you and how many people? How often? Once a week? Twice? Once a day?

You see, there's a difference. Once a week or twice a week is an "event"; every day is a play style.

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I agree. And as stated, my playstyle was to provide free farms for newbies, because this was how I enjoyed the game! The only difference now is the particular farm.

Regardless of how you spin your opinion, I find little else beyond opinion in your statements. While you may have found a decline in the quantity or quality of your recent teammates, this can be attributed to a number of reasons (as I stated above), and thus cannot be blamed solely on farming. Are we also to ban story missions in the Architect because they reduce the amount of players for "traditional" arcs?

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This seems like a very selfish argument. "I don't want you to farm because then you're not filling spots on MY team doing what I want!"

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It's not a selfish argument because before MA, you were, in fact filling out my team. There was a middle ground where people farmed, but most people just played. And I'll guess you were in the "just play" group...which meant you teamed with me, and roleplayers, and noobs and (probably) someone's mom.

That doesn't happen now. The balance has shifted to farming, and the fence sitters (people who "just play") have gone to farming and that's about 75-80% of the population.

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Quite the opposite! Before Architect farming was presented as a choice to me, I was one of the many hardworking individuals providing free Battle Maiden farms to players in need. And once again, I reiterate that this was entirely my choice.

Also, you say that the balance has shifted to "MA Farming" specifically; however, I believe another issue which you overlook is that many of the lore-mongers of the game have started an endless trek through some of the more story-rich arcs to be found inside MA. Indeed, I see many players broadcasting "MA Team (NOT FARM)" in atlas park these days.

I implore you see my above "stereotypes" post on the matter.

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Hi,

Your character levelling up is of interest to you, and you alone. However, the side effects of that levelling up are felt by a wider audience.

If you get up to level 50 and start playing with a character you have no experience of, you will have lower skill with that toon. This affects the people you team with.

But you only solo or play with your SG who also PL and know what to expect. Fine.

But if you have an SG who competes with other SGs to be the "best" if you use low risk methods to get high rewards, you force the people who you are competing with to either lose or use the same techniques you are using to remain competitive. This affects their gameplay experience.

But you don't compete with other SGs anyway. Fine.

All you do is use low risk high reward methods to level up characters to play, and maybe to get a bit of extra inf to buy the good loot. Which affects everyone who uses the in game economy to buy things, forcing them to do the same high reward low risk dull as ditchwater (in their opinion) content in order to compete for the enhancements they want.

The way I see it, its a balance issue. If there is a way for you to get xp, and influence, and tickets that is significantly better than any other way it reduces the overall pool of players who will play non-optimal content because it is fun. You doing the power levelling affects the entire game whether you like it or not.

By balancing risk vs reward across all content in the game, the developers seek to encourage people to play a wide variety of content. That is what the MA is about, more content and more diversity. By abusing the system to break the risk vs reward balance you end up unintentionally messing it up for another large group of people who also pay money every month.

That is why some people, get annoyed at PLers and the explosion of PLing the MA seems to have brought.

Cheers,
Conker

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First and foremost, I would like to thank you for so clearly expressing your opinion on the matter in a non-hateful manner. You cannot fathom the depths of my gratitude for this.

Now, I feel it only appropriate to discuss your points, so allow me if I may to reply...

1. I agree that powerleveling will cause less-experienced players to reach level 50 faster, but I will argue that this is a good thing! Before you declare me a lune, hear me out...

Where are you more likely to find a patient experienced player, Level 5 or level 50? I would postulate the latter. Therefore, by giving the newer player a higher probability of being exposed to a potential mentor, you are helping him/her reach their potential as a player far more rapidly. While I realize this puts a strain on the more experienced players to deal with these "newbies", I will reiterate that this game is in no way "serious business" and accordingly players should not worry about it as such.

2. I see your argument of SG competition as legitimate. I would even go so far as to say that the removal of prestige gain from the Mission Architect might be a positive balancing step! But that is an entirely different matter from the issue of powerleveling, and thus should be discussed elsewhere.

3. Having taken a look at the blueside market earlier this evening, I was shocked to find prices more affordably than ever! Many of the uncommon and rare recipes which had previously cost me tens of millions of influence could now be acquired for a mere fraction of this cost! And to compound the matter, rare salvage had come down in price by a fair bit as well.

If anyone in the economy is hurt by Architect farming, it is the farmers themselves, who now have to provide a greater amount of goods to the market to see a sufficient gain (thus making more goods available to non-farming players at lower prices).

4. Allow me to make a metaphor, loosely based on a much older metaphor of a much older game...

The way I see the matter, there are three distinct stereotypes of players which we (for convenience) shall call Billy, Spike, and Vorthos.

The Billies of the game are those who believe that the experience from 1 to 50 is at least as important as the end-game. These are the players enjoying the story arcs for the sake of the story, the roleplayers, the social butterflies. I appreciate the playstyle you all represent, and realize that it brings a great deal of depth and richness to the game!

Next are the Spikes. These are the players who play for the sake of "killing lots of stuff!" You are likely to find the Spike wherever the biggest mobs to be killed are. This group represents those who play the game for "thrill of the kill" relaxation, newer players who have yet to lean toward another playstyle, or a myriad of other groups. If any players are being lost from arcs to farms, this is the suspect group.

Finally, you have the enigmatic Vorthos. Vorthos is the player who plays the game to discover and explore the finer points of character creation. This is the player you see posting his lovingly handcrafted, tediously tweaked build to endure the scrutiny of his peers; the character who powerlevels his character to 50 for the sake of examining its performance and how he might augment it. In short, these are your theory-crafters.

Now, what we must all realize is that regardless of the group we fall into, there are other groups to be considered. The Billies may be happy to play the game their way, while your average Vorthos may find it slow and tedious; likewise, Billy often sees Vorthos as too busy rushing to 50 to enjoy the trip. But regardless of which group you fall under, there is absolutely no reason to step on the toes of the other. If I choose to farm characters to 50 to further explore the nearly-limitless combinations to be found in the game, it is exactly that: my chioce; my choice is not directly affecting your ability to explore the game content at will. In summary, what I'm trying to say is...can't we all just get along?

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A combination of pride and cowardice are going to prevent any appropriate follow-up to positron's posting. The best solution would be a posting by positron apologizing for making such a heavy-handed posting, and saying that no accounts are at risk, but that they will continue to refine the MA to return it to the vision they had. A brief bit about how MA was something he was very excited about and that seeing it being used for such base actions got him a little upset and that he posted in haste, would pretty much satisfy every single angry patron instantly.

The vast majority of players are fine with refinements to the MA system. The people who don't farm are happy to see fixes in place... the people who do farm are willing to accept them. What nobody is ok with is being threatened or treated like children, regardless of how much someone might think they have been acting as such.

But, like I said, an apology is highly unlikely. Instead it'll be played off as "well, we'll let you lawbreakers slide this time, but only because we're nice". Saving face is always worth losing customers to that type of person.

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This.

As someone who admittedly farms a fair bit (and has for quite a long time), I am perfectly fine seeing these supposed "nerfs" hit live. I can still take a group of my lowbie friends into a mission full of minion for some crazy fights and a good time (you know, "fun", that stuff you're supposed to have with a game).

But seeing vague, outlandish threats from the supposedly mature, professional developer(s) of the game shook me a bit. While I'm not going to run around yelling "I pay your salary, make the game how I want!", I will suggest that customers be treated in a nicer manner. While I understand that there is vision and direction behind MA (and as a developer myself, respect this), making threats which are seen by the community at large as "trolling" is not going to convince anyone of your professional or artistic depth. As VoodooPokey stated, a simple apology for the threats, alongside a clearer explanation of the situation, would go miles toward sating the player-base's bloodlust on the matter.

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i dont even understand why ppl are so against PL.

am i removing content from other players


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It affects them because it affects how you play. It's a multiplayer game. What you do affects what I do affects what the guy next to me does.

Now, when you limit yourself to only farming AE missions, you remove yourself from everything else in the game. That means if I want to do something else, if I want to team for something else, I can't do it because you're farming AE's.

So now if I want to play with you--I have to farm AEs because that's all you're doing. Oh, sure, I can hold out and not farm AEs...by myself.

And yes, I can understand why you don't want to level a new character to 50. But in all those posts I've read about, "I'd never level a new guy to 50" it was with characters that they wouldn't level to 50 anyway...unless you handed it to them.

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This seems like a very selfish argument. "I don't want you to farm because then you're not filling spots on MY team doing what I want!" I'm sorry, but unless you're gong to pay my monthly fee for me, I am not obligated to fill your teams. This game is not, as some people claim, "srs bsnss", and if you cannot solo the content on heroic to experience the rich story arcs which are available then it is in no way my fault; in fact, if you have such trouble building effective characters, I conjecture that I wouldn't be on your team anyway.

The common argument that "Farming takes players away from teams in other areas" is a fallacious lie! If I could not AE farm, that does not mean that I would be running your arcs with (or for) you. To counter this selfish argument, I conjecture that you doing story arcs takes fillers away from MY farms! I demand that you come fill my farms at once! Do you hear how silly that sounds? Roughly the same as your own claim.

Therefore, I would like to firmly and clearly state that I agree with the original poster of this well thought out, eloquent thesis on the matter; I would also like to issue a challenge to my more intellectual opponents on the matter to present a clearly stated, intelligent counterpoint other than "because my mommy/daddy/dev told me so" or "because you're not running my arcs for me". Please, explain to myself and others the error of our ways!

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Yes, yes we can. Regardless of what past abuses may have occurred, retroactive punishment for a previously 'legal' action is frowned upon universally, be it in real life or simply a game.

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For some definitions of "legal" action. It was always clear that getting a level 50 in 6 hours cannot possibly have been the intent of developers with the track record of COH developers.

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Where does "legal" come into play here? Is someone going to sue Paragon Studios cos they couldn't level their character in a day? There is no "legal". It's simple. Paragon Studios owns the game, and their parent company NCSoft runs it. They can make whatever arbitrary rules they like, because it's THEIR virtual universe we're playing in.

If you don't think their rules are fair, or unbiased, you can click "I Decline" on the EULA page, and simply not play.

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The use of "legal" here refers to "adhering to the rules of the game as they were currently put forth". In other words, there were no rules against this specific behavior.

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Yes, yes we can. Regardless of what past abuses may have occurred, retroactive punishment for a previously 'legal' action is frowned upon universally, be it in real life or simply a game.

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For some definitions of "legal" action. It was always clear that getting a level 50 in 6 hours cannot possibly have been the intent of developers with the track record of COH developers.

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If punishment were meted out based on assumption of "intent" rather than actual law, you would have a case here. As it stands, there were no rules against this previously nor were there any mechanisms in place to prevent it. Therefore, I put forth that it was 'legal'. In addition, farming has existed for years without punishment. so to suddenly point out a specific type of farming which will receive retroactive punishment seems extremely unfair.

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What if, tomorrow, being a stalker in PvP was declared illegal and all stalkers that had previously PvP'd were given the same treatment? While admittedly this is a bit of a straw-man argument,

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Only a bit? How about a little fire, scarecrow?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you're one of the people worried that you might have a character rolled back or lost to you, then the reason you're worried is because you KNOW you exploited the system to get the benefits you received.

Being worried about the possible punishment for egregious abuse means you know that something you've done has been egregious abuse.

So ask yourself honestly, do you feel you've been abusing the system? If not, then you have nothing to worry about. If so, you have no one to blame but yourself.

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It's not a matter of whether certain individuals have abused the system, it's a matter of sticking up for what's right. Do I feel that 3-hour 50s are right? Of course not, and I'm glad that a stop has been put to this. Conversely, however, I do not believe retroactive punishment is correct either.

And saying "only exploiters complain about this" is also a fallacious argument. The same argument was used by WWII era Germany to ferret out those they believed to be anti-Nazi ("What, you're complaining that we took your neighbor away? We're taking you too, then!").

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Okay yes it may have been unproffesional to a degree, but can you really blame him? The Devs (and many of the players as positron pointed out) are tired of the MA abuse. It is not being used for what they thought it should be used for, but instead a farmfest!

I think instead of a threatening post, positron could have told everyone what he does not want people to do with the system (which in all honesty they have done) and also tell the playerbase that a massive (?) change will be coming that will affect the AE system.

This is all just my opinion.
We did have it coming, the farming is disturbing. I cant stand not being able to level my character outside of AE. I can lvl them, but recruiting people for a team is well... hellish.

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Yes, yes we can. Regardless of what past abuses may have occurred, retroactive punishment for a previously 'legal' action is frowned upon universally, be it in real life or simply a game. What if, tomorrow, being a stalker in PvP was declared illegal and all stalkers that had previously PvP'd were given the same treatment? While admittedly this is a bit of a straw-man argument, the comparison is that a particular playstyle (and one chosen by a signification fraction of the customer base, at that) is being penalized in an unfair manner.

Mind you, I'm not arguing against new restrictions, but against retroactive punishment.

On another note, there should not exist any offense (especially with ban-level punishment) which is only discussed on the boards. A goodly number of players do not read the forums, and even many that do have not seen positron's post. In my humble opinion, it seems very unfair to players who may not have seen this (and thus, do not know better) to suffer punishment for the actions under debate. Unless the rules are made into a forced pop-up for all players in-game or added to the official ToC statement, players should not be held accountable for knowing and upholding aforementioned rules.

Finally, in closing, I would like to reiterate the point of another eloquent forumite above me who correctly stated that from a business point of view, this situation should be handled carefully. Although the City Of X series has not traditionally had a great deal of competition in its niche market, there are other (some would argue better, although this is a matter of opinion) products entering the same market which threaten to take away portions of the player base. A major faux pas such as that which has been threatened should be avoided in order to maintain what has been, up to this point, a very loyal following.

QR, on the ORIGINAL topic, instead of debating the ethics of farming.

One small thing: I would like to note that the "top 3 farmers" for hero-side seems a bit off. Spines/Fire is a pretty rarely-seen farming build (at least on freedom, where I farm blueside). Conversely, 'classic' farmers such as fire tanks are far more commonly seen (at least in my experience). IMHO, Spine/fire should be removed from this list and fire/ice, ice/fire, or fire/ss added in its place.

I refuse to write
the silly haiku poems
which you keep using

Gotta say, I'm loving this toon so far! Just started my thug/psn, currently lvl 9, and been sticking mostly to the build PP gives (switched equip to lvl 6, and replaced hover with Recall Friend for now). This is the first MM that I've really felt comfortable soloing relentless with at such an early level. Thanks for the great advice!

*bows*

hmmm, methinks it's time to uberlevel a couple of my 30ishes this weekend, to get ready!