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Playing for hours, days, weeks, months or even years with one ruleset then stepping into a zone and have the most basic elements about your character be completely different just doesn't seem like a good idea to me, especially after 4 years.
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Wow, it appears you have common sense.
Unfortunately, the developers don't share that with you.
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Playing for hours, days, weeks, months or even years with one ruleset then stepping into a zone and have the most basic elements about your character be completely different just doesn't seem like a good idea to me, especially after 4 years.
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Wow, it appears you have common sense.
Unfortunately, the developers don't share that with you.
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A little too much [censored] common sense. Can't have that on the boards now can we?
Good point, calling in moderator8 for backup!
Castle works for CO and is trying to run CoX as far into the ground as possible before revealing his true colors.
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And, yeah, that is the fault of the players. (griefing scenario follows)
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No Claws, it isnt. I agree with you those were jerks, but its not fault of them the PvP is the mess it is. These same griefers play other games with PvP, right? And there are PVPs out there that are way superior to ours.
There will always be griefers. Our mechanics being loose just invites whoever wants to exploit it. Repeating my point from last post - if everyone was helpful to the newcomer about PvP (and many people on these forum helped me a LOT with builds and such), he could still enter there and be unable to do much because his powerset choice (not the powers in it, the set in itself) is unable to PvP.
Put short - sometimes the best, helpful, honest, well intentioned and most accurate counsel an expert player can give is "Well, reroll". The game system has to have something to do it.
- Dual Blades Stalker Guide
- Mastermind guide to Pain Domination
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Castle works for CO and is trying to run CoX as far into the ground as possible before revealing his true colors.
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hmm that would explain it, you couldn't possibly do what he has done if you are working for the betterment.
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No Claws, it isnt. I agree with you those were jerks, but its not fault of them the PvP is the mess it is. These same griefers play other games with PvP, right? And there are PVPs out there that are way superior to ours.
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Sorry, I should have specified a little more. I wasn't trying to say that ALL PvPers are bad, just that the ones who ARE jerks and delight in griefing people give the rest of the PvPers a bad rap and it tends to color the general populace's perception of PvP and the people who enjoy it.
I have had a number of great experiences in PvP zones, and I have had a number of annoying ones. if a new PvPer steps into a zone and has a good experience (meaning they have fun, whether they win or lose) they will be more likely to come back because it was enjoyable for them.
On the flipside of it, if a new PvPer comes into Siren's Call 5 times,and my aforementioned griefing scenario happens all 5 times, it is definitely going to have an effect on their perception of PvP. And the odds of that happening are pretty good.
Your Controller example is a case in point. Yes, that player would be confused that their hold did not work the way he expected it to, and rightly so if they have never been to a PvP zone. But, as I have seen happen, as soon as he asks why that is, the jerks in the zone pick him out as a newbie and an easy target, and the griefing begins. If that player is unaware of the existance of the forums, as many are, he has no resource to find out what just happened and why. All he knows is that his powers don't work and that he had 8 people killing him without having a chance to defend himself. End result: One more player with the impression that PvP is unfair because no one answered an honest question he had, instead taking it as a sign that he was an easy target.
And now you have that same player telling his friends (also new players) that PvP is unfair and that they shouldn't try it. And they will tell their friends, and so on. So you have an entire group of players that will never PvP, all because of a group of jerks that decided it was a better idea to repeatedly gank a new player rather than answer a few simple questions.
PvP is a niche in the game. The devs want to make it a larger part of the game as far as how many people do it. The elitist attitude held by some PvPers discourages new players from entering the zones. The devs saw that (the lack of players in the zones, they'd have to be IN the zone to see the elitist attitudes) and it was probably part of the reason for the changes.
Saying that the PvP changes were ALL caused by the players is foolish, and not what I was trying to say. However, the stance that the players were completely innocent and not to blame for ANY of the changes is just as foolish.
Edit: The person I quoted and responded to did not make the point about the Controller.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I'd also like to point out the "LOL PVE" mentality doesn't really help at all either. No one is special or awesome or whatever someone's favorite adjective is because they pvp (Bonus points if they have shifted characters a bazillion times to keep up with the FoTM.), and it's tough trying something new, getting steamrolled and then having comments made that compare your intellect to that of a sea sponge.
I've had loads of fun in pvp and I've also been incredibly frustrated by it sometimes. I suppose it's the nature of the beast, but it can be tough to integrate yourself into the pvp community at times.
PvP at its core is anti-casual, so attempting to make it enjoyable for the vast majority of the populace in this game (casuals) was going to have obvious results to anyone with common sense.
but we know the saying about common sense.
That isn't to excuse griefers or trashtalkers, but they sort of go hand in hand with pvp. I mean people don't honestly think that players of sports are "nice" to each other on the field right? that stops shortly after teams start keeping score, so around grade 2-3 lol.
Besides, trashtalking in this game is about 1/100th of what it is on games that use xbox live and such.
If trash talking is seriously driving people away then in all honestly pvp probably isn't for them. That said, the devs could do more to protect the delicates. IIRC enemy tells are default off, and have to be enabled? They could do the same thing for enemy broadcast. Pretty hard to get upset over something someone said if you never hear it...
As for griefing, well 8 people attacking 1 is NOT griefing. Teleporting someone so they are stuck in the geometry IS griefing and the GM's help out with the latter sometimes.
8vs1 is as much the player's fault as it is the dev's, but because the players lack the ability to affect widespread policy change the responsibility is on the devs if they want to fix it.
The scary thing is that they tried with ANTI-GANK, which thank god didn't make it to live due to a bug.
A more sensible solution that doesn't further crush teaming in a team based game would be to put up display monitors outside of the arena's and other spots that show current counts for the zones. If I log in a hero and the board says 15H's and 7 V's, I'll immediate switch sides and holler for a few friends and then suddenly just like that we have an hr or two of crazy good pvp.
As it stands now I log a Hero and pop into one of the zones it may be dead, so I zone multiple times and hop into another zone, do a /whoall and it says 7H vs 10V. I think "sweet" only to step out and be hammered by about 20V cause all of them were in /hide. At that point I go run an ITF...
A display monitor in some of the pve zones showing the player counts regardless of hide would have saved me 10 min or so of traveling between zones and would have attracted a few more heroes as it would have said 20 v 7, unlike the /whoall that said 10 v 7 and could only be done from within the specific zone.
I think the changes were Yes to make PvP more popular (it could hardly be less) but also to give everyone a fighting chance.
One of the big problems PvP had CoH is that some ATs/sets were totally worthless except with friends to protect/buffer them.
What they are really hoping for is that the new IO Sets get a lot of people to turn out if for no other reason than to get some sweet IOs. THAT could actually add to PvP popularity if there are a balance of Villains and Heros anyway. Camping zone entry is a big turn off for non-PvPers.
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
It's amazing how spectacularly they failed, in the end.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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I think the changes were Yes to make PvP more popular (it could hardly be less) but also to give everyone a fighting chance.
One of the big problems PvP had CoH is that some ATs/sets were totally worthless except with friends to protect/buffer them.
What they are really hoping for is that the new IO Sets get a lot of people to turn out if for no other reason than to get some sweet IOs. THAT could actually add to PvP popularity if there are a balance of Villains and Heros anyway. Camping zone entry is a big turn off for non-PvPers.
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The thing is even an ar/ice blaster could contribute and do fine in zone pvp in i12 as long as they were part of a team.
Inorite teaming in a team based game, wtf?
The problem was people want to be solo-viable on their ar/ice/munitions blaster and have a chance against that spines/sr stalker in elude.
The devs listened when pve'ers cried about it in pve and made it so a emp/psy can solo missions easily and they listened to the same people that came into pvp and complained about not being able to herd and solo the content.
Here's the kicker though, I actually have always prefered to solo while pvp'ing, generally on squshies too. But it was way better solo'ing in an environment designed for teaming because it was a challenge. Now that they made the pvp game solo friendly it feels like typing /godmode in Fallout 3 for someone like me.
I disagree with pvp being uncasual friendly as being common sense. In other MMOs, pvp was viable for casuals. (Case in point: WoW pvp. Whether it's the same or not, it's hard telling. I quit ages ago.) It's a lot more viable to some people than sitting for 3 hours in a TF. I don't mind say, my support character pvping better in a team. What I do mind is her being nigh useless due to holds barely holding and heal decay. Oh yay, I heal for like 50 while a widow tap dances on my face and shoots more sharks than the Gordon's fisherman on speed to Benny Hill theme music. That's a thrillin' pvp experience right there. (Cept, I do like fish sticks and Benny Hill.)
I may not expect someone to be nice and snuggly to me while pvping, but that doesn't mean I want to hear a string of LOLOLOLOLOL I PWN U SUCK HAHA REROLL NOOB or 'Go play easy mode' from some twit playing a flavor of the month with a terrible name. That being said, I usually ignore it or make a snappy comeback. No one ever sees Shakespearian insults coming. Actually, if you type that many lol's and are not being ironic or making an example, your keyboard should give you a small jolt of electricity just because.
And yeah, it is horribly obnoxious when pvp is lopsided and I feel for the outnumbered side if I'm not on it. Usually then I hop away or just go hunt some NPCs until numbers even if they ever do.
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Well, my exerience showed me that they weren't.
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Tell that to my Emp/Dark. Oh wait, Empathy was never good in PvP 
You can just love people to death. It works for our eRPers.
So the question is should the Devs:
- Leave PvP in it's current state, but try to attract more people by adding new features
- Try to make it more casual friendly and similar to PvE to increase the number of players
- Try to make it more hardcore and fun for the hardcore players to lure them back
- Leave the mechanics alone and try to get the players to change how they approach it via PvP lessons and events and such?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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So the question is should the Devs:
- 1.Leave PvP in it's current state, but try to attract more people by adding new features
- 2.Try to make it more casual friendly and similar to PvE to increase the number of players
- 3.Try to make it more hardcore and fun for the hardcore players to lure them back
- 4.Leave the mechanics alone and try to get the players to change how they approach it via PvP lessons and events and such?
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Amazingly they killed options 2 and 3 in the same issue. DR, suppression and all that made it so no real advantage can be netted through build tweaking, or playing specialized roles. So bye bye hardcores. And by making every power have new rules in pvp compared to pve they effectively made it anti-casual.
Option 1 is the road they are taking. Option 4 is almost the same as 1, so they might do that, but historically the devs don't organize or attend pvp events.
My thoughts on how to make PvP moar "casual" and "balanced"..
1.) Lock all powers.
2.) Give everyone a baseball bat for melee damage. (One attack. Same recharge as brawl.)
3.) Give everyone rock for range damage. (Same as baseball bat.)
4.) Travel Powers Allowed. (Except Fly. Can't have that.)
Bingo. I've solved all PvP problems. 
Seriously ... this new PvP system makes me sad... I can't even begin to explain why. Nor do I think I should have to. Heh. 
I vote for jell-o wrestling. It'll be 100% even. Or maybe like give us trained Candians to battle much like pokemon.
We should combine ideas, Chibi. Together we make the ultimate dev team.
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I do have sympathy for the newbies who want to PvP and no one lets them learn anything.
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No one lets them learn anything? Learning is something done by you, the end user. Maybe you mean to say no one taught them anything or offered to teach them anything. How did the new player learn about PvE to start with? Getting in teams with a terribad build and getting reamed for being [censored]? Did they ask questions? Go to forums? There is information here to be found about PvP and people will answer in a civilized manner. Don't blame the [censored] just because they are [censored].