I13 PVP SUX
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The only way to eliminate this problem is to make everything exactly the same, and [u]that makes everything dull and boring[u].
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Rendering a few sets great and almost everything else garbage does not?
With the big variety of powers in this game, it's complicated to see that powers are balanced, standarized and made equivalent. But the way things are (for years now) isnt like anyone is even trying too hard.
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The same thing can be said for PvE. I'm not sure why everyone continues to apply this to PvP. When you want an AoE Blaster for a TF, you bring a Fire Blaster, not an Ice Blaster. Does this mean Ice needs a buff? Hardly. It's probably one of the best PvE single-target sets. The very nature of PvP ensures that some sets will always be better than others. There's nothing you can do to bring, say, AR up to par with Sonic, other than massively increasing its PvP damage.
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Any skilled player could take any garbage build and do reasonably well in zones. This could apply in certain arena matches too. The only time build actually made a significant difference were in ladder matches and duels. Even then, that's still questionable.
Yeah sonic all your ideas would fix pretty much everything that isn't a bug, but as said before, the devs are special kids.
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Because the devs are special kids.
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This is no good at all...
Someone fixit please.
i14: My Ice/Ice Tanker does more damage than my Spines/SR Scrapper. Disappointing.
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They already answered why
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
I have a feeling that was...tampered with. Just a hunch. 
ZOMG! So he didn't call himself a tubgirl? I'm horribly surprised.
The following is from another thread with regards to a returning player asking about the reasons for the i13 pvp changes.
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Another reason given was they wanted every single AT to be equal in damage & survivability.
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If this is true, and by all accounts it appears to be, then that is the most ridiculous decision ever made in this game. It goes against the very foundation of which the game was built around.
Years ago we heard over and over from States and other devs that characters shine in team play and that the game wasn't built to be centered on single player design.
Now we know that fight club was very popular on certain servers and to an extent even many arena matches were exclusively 1v1. Sure this was in part for rated matches. In this aspect of gameplay even the pvpr's knew that the scales were tipped towards certain ATs over others.
What I'm trying to get across is that in team based pvp, especially casual zone or larger arena matches FOTM builds were still noticeable, but less so because a fairly good team based pve player, or a group of them, could be put in a pvp team and with a little understanding that players won't stand still and get beat on as critters do, could end up doing fairly well in a match versus similar skilled players.
Now of course ladder teams/ sg's would kick their butts, but I'm talking about the players that the Dev's say they want to pvp more -- casual pvpr's or newbies to pvp. Back in the day I could take any of my characters and if I got on a team of varied AT's it was hella fun. Sometimes it went bad, but it was still fun.
Large scale pvp, even the idea of it, is where the game was at it's pinnacle for me. That doesn't happen. I think I've heard of 1 or 2 sg vs sg arena battles on my server. I've heard it said on these boards that even in base raids the AT's and builds don't really matter as much. I believe, in part, that this is because with more allies the holes can be filled making it harder for a wipe or loss. In these cases it comes down to skill and not how a player developed their character.
There should always be some AT's that will almost always beat another in 1v1. That's the nature of having different AT's. To me personally a 1v1, while it can surge the adrenaline, is nothing compared to a large scale scenario.
IMHO it wasn't the so much the initial design of pvp that made people deter from it, it was the lip smackery that came with zone pvp. People weren't used to getting beat and lipped off at the end of a fight or duel. But that's not what I wanted to discuss here.
To sum up I wanted to say that changes made in i13 didn't accomplish anything except make the people that did enjoy pvp pissed off. Some of them, perhaps, don't like change or adapting although that is the nature of an MMO. Players need to adapt, though adapting to a system that is less fun and a heck of a lot more confusing than before is not good for the game or the playerbase.
There were a lot of whacky changes made to pvp in i13 that has almost every player scratching their heads over. If this is the beginning of a revamp of the pvp system I truly hope that we see where the end solution is headed soon or at the very least we get some dialogue from the Devs regarding pvp and what they're doing to make it better. Keeping in mind that the game is rooted in team play.
Yeah, yeah tl;dr 
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IMHO it wasn't the so much the initial design of pvp that made people deter from it, it was the lip smackery that came with zone pvp
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This. Over and over again.
Then I wonder....do those people avoid PvP in other games as well? We had our share, but compared to the horror stories I've heard about XBox Live, we had a pretty mild case.
At least you can ignore people in zones, assuming anyone is still there. I haven't gone into a PvP zone in over a year.
http://www.seventhsanctum.com/index-anim.php
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The trash talking in this came is lulzy compared to xbox live, AoC or WoW.
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Players need to adapt, though adapting to a system that is less fun and a heck of a lot more confusing than before is not good for the game or the playerbase.
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Call me an ignorant bafoon or a not a "real pvper". But yeah I didn't adapt because this new system is all sorts of [censored] up it ain't even funny.
Part of it I think is the PvP recipe drops.
I have stated my theory in another thread, but I'll say it here too.
They probably had the idea for PvP drops a while ago, before any changes were made. In any other area of the game everyone has an equal chance of getting any drop.
In PvP, had it not been changed, you would run into the problem of 1% of the population getting 95% or more of the drops.
As more skilled PvPers got the PvP specific drops, with the PvP-only bonuses on top of the PvE ones, the ratio would skew even more as the already skilled players would be even more overpowering and difficult to defeat.
Eventually what would have happened is, if you were not one of the old guard, or friends with someone who was, PvP would be pointless for you because you would win maybe one time out of every 100 encounters. I can understand the devs not wanting to see that happen.
Personally I don't really have a problem with any of the changes. They changed how it works, I adapted. Some of my characters got better, some of them got worse. No big deal.
I PvP when I'm in the mood to PvP, I don't take it seriously like some people do. I get pwnd on a fairly regular basis, and as long as I'm still having fun, I don't care at all. My sense of self worth does not depend on how well my pixelated character performs in a fictional world that has zero bearing on my day to day life. Some people LIVE for PvP in video games, to those people the only thing I can say is: Go outside once in a while.
Complaining about the state of PvP is unlikely to ever accomplish anything productive. The devs changed it for a reason. Granted, it is a reason that the hardcore PvP crowd disagrees with, but it's not going to change in a direction the devs don't want it to go because people complain. I'm unhappy with some of the changes myself, I just don't see the point to complaining about something that won't change because of it.
If PvP is that important to you and you are dissatisfied with the way it is being implemented in this game, your only real option is to find another game that has PvP more to your liking. Maybe a little harsh, but it's true.
And for the record, I am not a PvE carebear, or a badge-hunting whiner. I PvP fairly often and enjoy it. I'm not trying to bash anyone, just being realistic about the state of PvP in this game.
I've been popping into the PvP forums here and there, and from what I've seen the most common attempt at constructive feedback is "change it back."
That isn't very constructive.
The first person who said "change it back" basically got told "no"
The next 4000 who say it are very, very unlikely to get a different answer. And from what I've seen, they aren't even getting an answer anymore.
The devs were listening to the players when they implemented the changes to see how well they went over. They listened to the relatively small amount of positive constructive feedback they got, and adjusted things here and there in beta. When it degenerated into a chorus of "Waaah! Change it back NAO!!!" they stopped listening.
Honestly, I can't really say I blame them.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
You're so right.......now let's hold hands and sing Kumbaya
I just want to know why they are different.
I dont really mind i13, I still have my sonic/em which went from good to great. I'm not a hardcore pvp'r. I have a blaster with 4 sets of IOs that I go to RV and the pvp events with and have fun, i13 or pre i13.
I dont really mind the changes too much, I just wanted to see if anyone could answer my question on why pvp is so different and what it was supposed to accomplish. Something about new pvp'rs being equal to vets? Something with fotm and non fotm? So far nobody has an answer so I'm assuming there is none.
The devs were trying to make it so that every AT, every set, and every build, regardless of IO slotting or experience, could compete on an even level.
They failed miserably.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
What rei said. It would be akin to the NBA deciding that it's too hard for players to get into the NBA...so they would lower the basket to 5 feet from the ground. And they'd make the court half the current size...so people don't have to run as much.
Except guess what....the actual NBA players would still dominate the rest. It's pretty simple logic. Unfortunately, logic is not the devs' strong point. Eating is.
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What rei said. It would be akin to the NBA deciding that it's too hard for players to get into the NBA...so they would lower the basket to 5 feet from the ground. And they'd make the court half the current size...so people don't have to run as much.
Except guess what....the actual NBA players would still dominate the rest. It's pretty simple logic. Unfortunately, logic is not the devs' strong point. Eating is.
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Well except in this case the vet "NBA" stars of pvp mostly left and went on strike. Which leave it wide open to the people who pretty much like the changes or finally able to move two feet without being killed by the same guy over and over.
Now they can go three feet and whiff away at a Def based toon now before being killed. Now even a blaster can take a mez from a player as a joke. Anyone now can bounce a tank like basketball. And seeing a defender or another buffer now is like seeing a shooting star that is green red and pink on a cloudy day in a purple sky that is filled with migrating pigs.
Well word is they are toning down def based so it should be about even again.
Complaining do accomplish alot on this game apparently because someone or many people apparently complained about the state of pvp back in the day and thus I13 was born. And given the fact that many of the good pvpers and pro- pre-13 pvp players stopped playing, meaning there is less to vouch for changing back, and saying change it back aint going to cut it. Gotta state a case, a case which should've been stated in beta. No worries, better late than never, just hang in there, state ya case, give some numbers here and there and never know what may happen. I remember when ideas for evening up pvp not too long ago was being thrown around. People stated some interesting cases of course they been called many things from noob to nerf herder and such. But they won, regardless of what ya call them and you think they give a rat's butt about the same jokers that was harassing them in the first place walking off? Hell no, that probably added the icing on the cake.
As far as FoTM, there will probably always be a FoTM. I must say that I13 was a valient effort to rid that because it became kind of dull running into the xact same builds over and over and over and using the exact same strat to beat them over and over and over. Except there is a new FoTM with def based toons. Now you throw a rock and you'll hit one or probably miss at this point. With I14 there will probably be a new FoTM. In a way I guess it goess with the nature of being the Flavor of The Month. It is the flavor of the month not the flavor of forever.
I do think they should return mezzes back, and I never played a dom or controller or other mezzer in pvp. It just something that kept me on my toes. Now, who cares, even my squishy gets good resistance and mezzes dont last nowhere as long.
I think over all I can see why the changes was made. Ok you had the good PVPers, guranteed to be in the zone who lived in the pvp zone. But they was few in compare. Now how can thye get people in the zone? Why isnt more people PVPing? Oh I see, people dont pvp because they feel their build is underpowered for it and when they do enter they find it's not exactly a good learning environment to learn as the locals make it their mission to run off any newcomers. Wow, so to get them in the zone, lets make it where they stand a fighting chance regardless of skill or build. I13. Well now new people enter pvp zone but, wait the vets left. Well now it's a good learning zone for beginners and it's more "balanced". Things are good. But now def is now unbeatable. I know why not take off elude. it wasa bad idea. Now def is back to square one and the once FoTM goes back to the shadows. Now who will rise as the new FOTM. Step up to the plate. There is a special bat waiting.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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What was *wrong* with it in the first place? Maybe they could reduce mez duration a little or perhaps limit it, DR was a good idea for IO bonuses...I dont remember it being that bad
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The Devs didn't like that people practiced 12-15 hours a week and that hero lineups were:
2 Fire/EM
2 Emps
2 Sonics
1 Kin
1 Rad/Psy
(Changer whatever for a FFer, another Kin, a Psy Blaster etc)
and that Villain lineups had their Fortunatas/Stalks/MMs/Corrs/etc.
Devs didn't like the idea of spiking, completely missing the fact that to spike correctly takes a team on Vent and practice.
Devs didn't like that Emps could heal a target from 5% to full with AP so they added suppression.
Devs didn't like that we ran around with SS/SB/IR/SJ and needed twitch reflexes to react, so in came movement suppression.
In other words, Arena teams were too structured and too defined and too narrow so they blew the whole thing to smithereens.
I13/I14 is what it is...hopefully kills can still be achieved and Phase is still useful
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
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The Devs didn't like that people practiced 12-15 hours a week and that hero lineups were:
2 Fire/EM
2 Emps
2 Sonics
1 Kin
1 Rad/Psy
(Changer whatever for a FFer, another Kin, a Psy Blaster etc)
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...yeah... cause now, optimal teams have space for 1-2 wildcards are very different.
except they aren't.
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and that Villain lineups had their Fortunatas/Stalks/MMs/Corrs/etc.
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they were retarded enough not to know that pain actually opened up the lineups by making forts optional.
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Devs didn't like the idea of spiking, completely missing the fact that to spike correctly takes a team on Vent and practice.
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that's cause castle used to hang out in px vent yo.
or not.
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Devs didn't like that Emps could heal a target from 5% to full with AP so they added suppression.
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and now emps get farmed harder and playing a pure healer is pointless.
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Devs didn't like that we ran around with SS/SB/IR/SJ and needed twitch reflexes to react, so in came movement suppression.
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retards are called "slow" in some circles.
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In other words, Arena teams were too structured and too defined and too narrow so they blew the whole thing to smithereens.
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and now they are even worse.
gg.
they didnt understand what they were doing at all.
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I13/I14 is what it is...hopefully kills can still be achieved and Phase is still useful
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yeah.. with glitches and stalkers.
in i13 they made an attempt at transforming pvp into a "solo" viable experience. By DR'ing everyone to the point where team cohesion no longer really matters and by making everyone have similar/same damage and similar/same survivability.
Of course they failed entirely in the survivability department. But they are taking care of that in i14 by now ensuring def will be pretty useless to.
So res, heals, def, buffs, and most debuffs now don't really matter and even phase is counterable (maybe). So the only thing that matters is damage. But don't think for a second that some toons won't have better everything still. Not until Castle is able to execute his final pvp vision.
Castle's goal is basically to reduce everyone down to brawl and sprint and he is doing a good job.
Some might find that fun in a game about supers, in a game that they introduced loot to, in a team based MMO, but it isn't.
The goal of "everyone is the same" is entirely flawed in an MMO that brags about player customization. They would have been so much better served by embracing the wild and chaotic team based balance that the early dev team aimed for.
However, the same [censored] that whined in pve about not being able to solo all of the content and was listened to, whined in pvp and was listened to, just look at the anti-gank mechanic Castle tried to jam in and was ONLY removed because it was bugged and could not be fixed (for now).
However, Castle (and crew) live in spreadsheets, which is why it takes literally yrs for most changes to occur and why it makes them seem totally out of the blue. Team based balance can not be governed by only an excel spreadsheet, it has to be playtested, observed and tweaked basically on the fly with a scalpel.
Castle only has a sledgehammer, the dev team are pve carebears, and you can count on one hand how many times they observed high end pvp.
So we get brawl+sprint as the end goal for pvp and each issue Castle takes steps toward it.
Wow... best post ever.
As you can tell by my post count and reg date I am a consummate lurker of these forums but I must say, you sir have hit the nail on the head.
Now that this post, as unhelpful to the overall discussion as it is, is done: I return to the shadows of Lurkdom.
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So we get brawl+sprint as the end goal for pvp and each issue Castle takes steps toward it.
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my sig now :O
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Because the devs are special kids.
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