A Guide to Farming (without annoying people)
By
300_below,
Posted on: 2009-02-07 08:52 in Player Guides
That was a very good farming guide! It covered all of the basics very clearly, and stressed good etiquette. Very nicely done.
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Do you REALLY think that the devs have no clue about farming? It's a well known legitimate way of playing high-level characters. It is somewhat frowned upon, at least as far as PLing is concerned, but 'normal' farming such as wall farming and NON pl farming is strongly, if not actively, encouraged.
Do you REALLY think that the devs expect you to be able to assemble a full set of purples (or the wherewithal to afford them) just running normal content? 'farming' is simply an efficient way of grinding, and one that requires specialized builds and/or archetypes.
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I think you're a little delusional if you think in any way the devs "encourage" people to farm. The devs want people to play the game. They want people to enjoy the content. That's it. They've stated several times that they'd like people to play a variety of content. If they encouraged people to play the same missions over and over again, they wouldn't have put in the mechanism for diminishing returns when running task forces. They also wouldn't have put in the code where spawns are calculated for team size as you approach them, necessitating the need for mapping the mission out before fillers leave.
I fully believe the devs see the farming and leave it at that, but that given their preferences, people would be playing the game for the content, rather than grinding it for the rewards.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
The guide mentions the bug where you can't select a mission unless everyone is in the same zone. But this is easily worked around. Just select the mission when you do have everyone in the same zone first, then you can add pads from anywhere. It helps to be in an SG or coalition that doesn't frown on farming. That way you don't have to broadcast or send tells to strangers asking for fillers. You just ask in SG or coalition chat.
If you are going to resort to sending tells to people, the thing that can't be stressed enough is to look at people's search comments. If the comment says anything along the lines of "No farms" or "I don't fill" then respect that person's wishes!
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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I think you're a little delusional if you think in any way the devs "encourage" people to farm. The devs want people to play the game. They want people to enjoy the content. That's it. They've stated several times that they'd like people to play a variety of content. If they encouraged people to play the same missions over and over again, they wouldn't have put in the mechanism for diminishing returns when running task forces. They also wouldn't have put in the code where spawns are calculated for team size as you approach them, necessitating the need for mapping the mission out before fillers leave.
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I think you are delusional if you honestly believe that play experience is as important to NCsoft as subscription fees. Sure individual devs may smile or frown upon farming in general, But the stockholders and pr reps only care that people Keep Paying for memberships Powerlevelling actually decreases memberships (Because people get pl'd, play for a while, and then quit) but 'hard core' farmers are here for the duration.... thus, PLing is definitely frowned upon, but farming, per se, is a neutral subject... and occasionally even encouraged.
see 'rikti war zone', 'storm palace' and 'cimerora wall' for examples of situations that have been specifically set up to encourage level 50 grinding/farming.
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I think you're a little delusional if you think in any way the devs "encourage" people to farm. The devs want people to play the game. They want people to enjoy the content. That's it. They've stated several times that they'd like people to play a variety of content. If they encouraged people to play the same missions over and over again, they wouldn't have put in the mechanism for diminishing returns when running task forces. They also wouldn't have put in the code where spawns are calculated for team size as you approach them, necessitating the need for mapping the mission out before fillers leave.
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I think you are delusional if you honestly believe that play experience is as important to NCsoft as subscription fees. Sure individual devs may smile or frown upon farming in general, But the stockholders and pr reps only care that people Keep Paying for memberships Powerlevelling actually decreases memberships (Because people get pl'd, play for a while, and then quit) but 'hard core' farmers are here for the duration.... thus, PLing is definitely frowned upon, but farming, per se, is a neutral subject... and occasionally even encouraged.
see 'rikti war zone', 'storm palace' and 'cimerora wall' for examples of situations that have been specifically set up to encourage level 50 grinding/farming.
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I'll agree with you partially on this. I'm positive NCSoft would love any mechanism where players stay with the game and keep paying. But you talked about the devs. The individuals responsible for molding the game and creating the content. Their stance is not one of encouraging the farming of single missions over and over again. It never has been. They encourage people to play. Period. They prefer that you play for the challenge or the content or the sheer enjoyment of it, and that's what they try to encourage. They've never said, in any way, that they encourage mindlessly performing the same task over and over again simply for the influence or drops. And they've said several times that their goal is to keep within the genre, which is why they don't like heroes intentionally not defeating their enemy.... it's not heroic. Remember when they took away the experience from demons being summoned through the portals? It was because a hero wouldn't let the portal stay there just to farm the demons.
Accepting it and encouraging it are two different things. Contrary to what you feel, the game does not center around farming.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
I would also like to add to the thread that people serious about farming should check out the global farming channels and try those first for finding farms or members. Peregrine Island, on Freedom anyway, is usually so full it breaks down into multiple instances. Sometimes three or four. Using the global channels will let everyone on that channel who's not in the zone or instance see your messages. It also keeps the broadcast messages for the zone less cluttered.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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First..I been farming for like when tanks farmed and there was no cap arrgo "Freak farm" went to the new hottest thing fire/kins i farm the wall alot with my fire/kin with no problems
never die.I think its how u slot the build that counts more then the Archtype that your using to farm the wall.
You guid is at most fair to about half of it. The other half is red side farming and i cant tell you nothing about it 4 i dont care to play red side it bores me to death.
Now back to farming heroes side
1. farming boss's can be done if you know what your doing
i solo 8 man under 17mins where it takes most farmers to run 6 man 15min-20 but thats cuz their new "maybe"
2.On boss farming add this note to guid 1"stay out of range 4 feet so u dont make em pull out axe.2 char em now sometimes u hit they still fight but siphon anything and they begain to choke keep spaming char and us what ever mastery u have plus siphon and cage imps will kill off the rest
while u get contol over boss's if u use fireball u are adding to the imps same with psi tornado,
Its really not hard once u get the hang of it,
If u want to see me do it ill be glad to show anyone,
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OW! My eyes! My brain! My sense of literacy! Please do the internet a favor and invest in a dictionary, as well as learning about the amazing new inventions called "punctuation" and "grammar". 
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Next week we will introduce this amazing concept called, "white space" to break up walls of text.
Tech Support Rule #1 - They will lie to you. Usually intentionally.
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First..I been farming for like when tanks farmed and there was no cap arrgo "Freak farm" went to the new hottest thing fire/kins i farm the wall alot with my fire/kin with no problems
never die.I think its how u slot the build that counts more then the Archtype that your using to farm the wall.
You guid is at most fair to about half of it. The other half is red side farming and i cant tell you nothing about it 4 i dont care to play red side it bores me to death.
Now back to farming heroes side
1. farming boss's can be done if you know what your doing
i solo 8 man under 17mins where it takes most farmers to run 6 man 15min-20 but thats cuz their new "maybe"
2.On boss farming add this note to guid 1"stay out of range 4 feet so u dont make em pull out axe.2 char em now sometimes u hit they still fight but siphon anything and they begain to choke keep spaming char and us what ever mastery u have plus siphon and cage imps will kill off the rest
while u get contol over boss's if u use fireball u are adding to the imps same with psi tornado,
Its really not hard once u get the hang of it,
If u want to see me do it ill be glad to show anyone,
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OW! My eyes! My brain! My sense of literacy! Please do the internet a favor and invest in a dictionary, as well as learning about the amazing new inventions called "punctuation" and "grammar".
[/ QUOTE ]
Next week we will introduce this amazing concept called, "white space" to break up walls of text.
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LOL.....The was funny. Me laughed hard really really good. Maybe he's an ESL student???
I crashed a cadillac through the gates of hell and returned with a fistfull of dollars.
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I'll agree with you partially on this. I'm positive NCSoft would love any mechanism where players stay with the game and keep paying. But you talked about the devs. The individuals responsible for molding the game and creating the content. Their stance is not one of encouraging the farming of single missions over and over again. It never has been. They encourage people to play. Period. They prefer that you play for the challenge or the content or the sheer enjoyment of it, and that's what they try to encourage. They've never said, in any way, that they encourage mindlessly performing the same task over and over again simply for the influence or drops. And they've said several times that their goal is to keep within the genre, which is why they don't like heroes intentionally not defeating their enemy.... it's not heroic. Remember when they took away the experience from demons being summoned through the portals? It was because a hero wouldn't let the portal stay there just to farm the demons.
Accepting it and encouraging it are two different things. Contrary to what you feel, the game does not center around farming.
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Explain police band/newspaper missions, then. You do essentially one of three or four cookie-cutter template missions with random names and enemies over and over and over again ad nauseum and the only plausible reward is a bank mission every so often that is also a cookie cutter mission with a temp power as a reward? How is that not a developer-endorsed and created experience farm? Original intent notwithstanding, that is essentially what it is.
While I agree that this game isn't centered around farming, that doesn't mean that farming is an accepted by-product or a crossover from other mmo's. I personally think farming is the most mind-numbingly BORING waste of good game time, but I also can't deny the notion that farming and grinding are key components to this game that are almost (if not equally) as key as teaming, story arcs and task forces.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
content lolz
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
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I'll agree with you partially on this. I'm positive NCSoft would love any mechanism where players stay with the game and keep paying. But you talked about the devs. The individuals responsible for molding the game and creating the content. Their stance is not one of encouraging the farming of single missions over and over again. It never has been. They encourage people to play. Period. They prefer that you play for the challenge or the content or the sheer enjoyment of it, and that's what they try to encourage. They've never said, in any way, that they encourage mindlessly performing the same task over and over again simply for the influence or drops. And they've said several times that their goal is to keep within the genre, which is why they don't like heroes intentionally not defeating their enemy.... it's not heroic. Remember when they took away the experience from demons being summoned through the portals? It was because a hero wouldn't let the portal stay there just to farm the demons.
Accepting it and encouraging it are two different things. Contrary to what you feel, the game does not center around farming.
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Explain police band/newspaper missions, then. You do essentially one of three or four cookie-cutter template missions with random names and enemies over and over and over again ad nauseum and the only plausible reward is a bank mission every so often that is also a cookie cutter mission with a temp power as a reward? How is that not a developer-endorsed and created experience farm? Original intent notwithstanding, that is essentially what it is.
While I agree that this game isn't centered around farming, that doesn't mean that farming is an accepted by-product or a crossover from other mmo's. I personally think farming is the most mind-numbingly BORING waste of good game time, but I also can't deny the notion that farming and grinding are key components to this game that are almost (if not equally) as key as teaming, story arcs and task forces.
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To be fair, you can deconstruct the entire game into a farming or grinding example.
I just can't see farming as a key component of the game. Radio missions are there so that if you want a quick mission, it's handy. They're also handy if you've outleveled your contacts and aren't high enough for the next batch (which was a problem heroside at one point). The game does have other things to do. There are high level task forces and trials, lower level task forces and trials are still available to high level heroes, and the oroborous system makes a ton of content available again.
All of these things negate any argument that farming is a "key" component of the game. Is it relatively common? Yes. Is it something that the devs accept? Yes. Is it a necessary or key aspect of the game? No.
You don't need to run only radio missions. If you have a particular mission you like to run because of the enemies and map, and want to hold onto it so you can go through it, then by all means, don't complete the objective and farm it if you want. I have one myself that I held onto. I thought "I like this map, and I like blasting away these particular spawns. I think I'll hold onto it." I run it once a week or so when I'm in the mood.
Farming becomes "farming" when the focus is taken away from gameplay or having fun, and placed on the reward. Playing a particular mission over and over because you enjoy it is purely fine. Playing the same mission over and over because you feel it's a grind, but you want the reward at the end, is not. That's when an activity becomes farming.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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To be fair, you can deconstruct the entire game into a farming or grinding example.
I just can't see farming as a key component of the game. Radio missions are there so that if you want a quick mission, it's handy. They're also handy if you've outleveled your contacts and aren't high enough for the next batch (which was a problem heroside at one point). The game does have other things to do. There are high level task forces and trials, lower level task forces and trials are still available to high level heroes, and the oroborous system makes a ton of content available again.
All of these things negate any argument that farming is a "key" component of the game. Is it relatively common? Yes. Is it something that the devs accept? Yes. Is it a necessary or key aspect of the game? No.
You don't need to run only radio missions. If you have a particular mission you like to run because of the enemies and map, and want to hold onto it so you can go through it, then by all means, don't complete the objective and farm it if you want. I have one myself that I held onto. I thought "I like this map, and I like blasting away these particular spawns. I think I'll hold onto it." I run it once a week or so when I'm in the mood.
Farming becomes "farming" when the focus is taken away from gameplay or having fun, and placed on the reward. Playing a particular mission over and over because you enjoy it is purely fine. Playing the same mission over and over because you feel it's a grind, but you want the reward at the end, is not. That's when an activity becomes farming.
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EDIT - My, what a wall of text! Here's the TL;DR version - Story arcs and oroborous do make up the majority of game content, but for reasons discussed below they aren't team friendly, and are often passed over by teams for police bands not because police bands are more enjoyable, but explicitly and solely for the experience bonuses gained through grinding through them quickly.
Okay, if you'd like to know why I think this, keep reading:
Barata, I get what you're saying, and on the surface you're right, but the problem with that line of thinking (specifically, that police bands are just to grab a quick mission and story arcs, tf's and oroborous is where the true content lies) is the fact that the devs have put such an emphasis on teaming and yet neglected to reward teaming through the vast majority of that content. Task forces are formed through special contacts and require minimum team requirements and are inflexible should that team be broken up for any reason. Yes, you can always pick it up later, but the logistics of getting the team back together make that somewhat daunting. Task forces are the opposite extreme from what I'm talking about, in that they absolutely require teams to start. They also - to be fair - properly reward all team members, not just the team leader - and many task forces are pretty easy to get through in a short amount of time (and ironically they get farmed).
That's just a small amount of content, however, when compared to story arcs and oroborous. This is where your argument breaks down. Story arcs offer rewards ONLY TO THE INDIVIDUAL who has visited the contact, giving absolutely zip to the team by way of official rewards. There are side benefits, to be sure, like Archvillains and badges (for certain missions). But by and large the vast majority of teams have no incentive to do story arcs instead of police band. For one thing, Police Band missions are all in the same neighborhood, whereas story arcs frequently mean trips to contacts, zoning to different areas of the city, and the dreaded hunt missions. And then there's the fact that many story arcs are on similar maps, so heaven help the person wanting help running an arc that takes a team into Oroborous or any Council bases, because unless some of the other members of the team have the same content, one player is asking up to seven others to really sweat it out for exactly bubkis in rewards.
Oh, I'll admit that there are some arcs that people will spontaneously team up to do. The Praetorian Arc in the upper levels and Frostfire in the lower levels spring immediately to mind, and there are some others, but by and large those are the arcs that - like the Praetorian arc - offer the challenge of Archvillains or - like Frostfire - offer a short arc with multiple level potential. Tell a team you'd like them to do the Envoy of Shadows arcs with you and see how many are jumping to do it.
And even if they do, what happens to the "content?" You read back through the clues at the end of the night to catch up because the team wanted to speed on to the next one. And if they do stick it out with you to the end, do they get any merit rewards? Nope. Nada. Do they get let in on the clues and the plot of the content? Nope. They're just grinding.
What about experience? I suppose the argument could be made that story arc missions offer more experience to the teams than run of the mill police band, but then that would smack of farming, wouldn't it? Besides, you'll never convince me that a good team can't power their way through police band missions (and the completion experience rewards that are given to everyone on the team) faster than through some of those sometimes convoluted story arc missions (especially if there are hunt missions thrown in) to more experience per hour.
My point is that far and away the majority of teams will opt for a few quick police bands chosen by the highest player to maximise the experience gain potential. There just isn't enough reward for the time investment, and so police band farming becomes the modus operandi.
Granted, this is talking about pickup teams. Theoretically you could schedule a time with some friends to do a specific story arc, or even post in player events (although I don't recall EVER seeing anyone post about doing a story arc. Usually they're about general superteams or task forces). In two years of playing I have yet to successfully schedule anything short of a task force this way. I'd be interested to know if anyone does that on a regular basis. ::shrugs:: maybe they do.
In the end, the vast majority of the content you're talking about there is geared towards the solo player, with an occasional team to overcome a tough mission thrown in only occasionally. Only datamining on the part of the devs would say for sure, but I wonder just what the difference is between police band teaming and story arc/oroborous teaming? My money's on police band, and hence my stance that farming in one form or another, while perhaps not intended to be a key role, plays a far bigger roll in this game than you're suggesting.
...now if they were to, say, give some sort of compensation to the story arc holder's teammates, then my opinion would likely be more in line with yours.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Granted, this is talking about pickup teams. Theoretically you could schedule a time with some friends to do a specific story arc, or even post in player events (although I don't recall EVER seeing anyone post about doing a story arc. Usually they're about general superteams or task forces). In two years of playing I have yet to successfully schedule anything short of a task force this way. I'd be interested to know if anyone does that on a regular basis. ::shrugs:: maybe they do.
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I regularly play story arcs with friends and coalition members, but we're a fairly relaxed lot who recently took three weeks (playing a few hours every Sunday) to do a Shard TF with lots of roleplaying. I wouldn't be surprised if we're atypical--we roleplay a LOT, which typically stretches out the length of TFs and such.
Doing story arcs, in comparison, isn't much of an issue to us. But even then, we still do some police band/newspaper missions, particularly at 50.
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...now if they were to, say, give some sort of compensation to the story arc holder's teammates, then my opinion would likely be more in line with yours.
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Agreed that it's absolutely backwards that story arcs only award merits to the arc holder. That's one of the things I particularly dislike about the merit system.
Anyway, to the OP, thank you for the guide. I don't have much interesting in farming generally (though I occasionally do it for badges), but this guide's helped me understand what others do. Before, I didn't understand references to "BM farms" and whatnot.
Just for that understanding of something going on in this game, even if I rarely partake in it, I found this guide worthwhile.
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To be fair, you can deconstruct the entire game into a farming or grinding example.
I just can't see farming as a key component of the game. Radio missions are there so that if you want a quick mission, it's handy. They're also handy if you've outleveled your contacts and aren't high enough for the next batch (which was a problem heroside at one point). The game does have other things to do. There are high level task forces and trials, lower level task forces and trials are still available to high level heroes, and the oroborous system makes a ton of content available again.
All of these things negate any argument that farming is a "key" component of the game. Is it relatively common? Yes. Is it something that the devs accept? Yes. Is it a necessary or key aspect of the game? No.
You don't need to run only radio missions. If you have a particular mission you like to run because of the enemies and map, and want to hold onto it so you can go through it, then by all means, don't complete the objective and farm it if you want. I have one myself that I held onto. I thought "I like this map, and I like blasting away these particular spawns. I think I'll hold onto it." I run it once a week or so when I'm in the mood.
Farming becomes "farming" when the focus is taken away from gameplay or having fun, and placed on the reward. Playing a particular mission over and over because you enjoy it is purely fine. Playing the same mission over and over because you feel it's a grind, but you want the reward at the end, is not. That's when an activity becomes farming.
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EDIT - My, what a wall of text! Here's the TL;DR version - Story arcs and oroborous do make up the majority of game content, but for reasons discussed below they aren't team friendly, and are often passed over by teams for police bands not because police bands are more enjoyable, but explicitly and solely for the experience bonuses gained through grinding through them quickly.
Okay, if you'd like to know why I think this, keep reading:
Barata, I get what you're saying, and on the surface you're right, but the problem with that line of thinking (specifically, that police bands are just to grab a quick mission and story arcs, tf's and oroborous is where the true content lies) is the fact that the devs have put such an emphasis on teaming and yet neglected to reward teaming through the vast majority of that content. Task forces are formed through special contacts and require minimum team requirements and are inflexible should that team be broken up for any reason. Yes, you can always pick it up later, but the logistics of getting the team back together make that somewhat daunting. Task forces are the opposite extreme from what I'm talking about, in that they absolutely require teams to start. They also - to be fair - properly reward all team members, not just the team leader - and many task forces are pretty easy to get through in a short amount of time (and ironically they get farmed).
That's just a small amount of content, however, when compared to story arcs and oroborous. This is where your argument breaks down. Story arcs offer rewards ONLY TO THE INDIVIDUAL who has visited the contact, giving absolutely zip to the team by way of official rewards. There are side benefits, to be sure, like Archvillains and badges (for certain missions). But by and large the vast majority of teams have no incentive to do story arcs instead of police band. For one thing, Police Band missions are all in the same neighborhood, whereas story arcs frequently mean trips to contacts, zoning to different areas of the city, and the dreaded hunt missions. And then there's the fact that many story arcs are on similar maps, so heaven help the person wanting help running an arc that takes a team into Oroborous or any Council bases, because unless some of the other members of the team have the same content, one player is asking up to seven others to really sweat it out for exactly bubkis in rewards.
Oh, I'll admit that there are some arcs that people will spontaneously team up to do. The Praetorian Arc in the upper levels and Frostfire in the lower levels spring immediately to mind, and there are some others, but by and large those are the arcs that - like the Praetorian arc - offer the challenge of Archvillains or - like Frostfire - offer a short arc with multiple level potential. Tell a team you'd like them to do the Envoy of Shadows arcs with you and see how many are jumping to do it.
And even if they do, what happens to the "content?" You read back through the clues at the end of the night to catch up because the team wanted to speed on to the next one. And if they do stick it out with you to the end, do they get any merit rewards? Nope. Nada. Do they get let in on the clues and the plot of the content? Nope. They're just grinding.
What about experience? I suppose the argument could be made that story arc missions offer more experience to the teams than run of the mill police band, but then that would smack of farming, wouldn't it? Besides, you'll never convince me that a good team can't power their way through police band missions (and the completion experience rewards that are given to everyone on the team) faster than through some of those sometimes convoluted story arc missions (especially if there are hunt missions thrown in) to more experience per hour.
My point is that far and away the majority of teams will opt for a few quick police bands chosen by the highest player to maximise the experience gain potential. There just isn't enough reward for the time investment, and so police band farming becomes the modus operandi.
Granted, this is talking about pickup teams. Theoretically you could schedule a time with some friends to do a specific story arc, or even post in player events (although I don't recall EVER seeing anyone post about doing a story arc. Usually they're about general superteams or task forces). In two years of playing I have yet to successfully schedule anything short of a task force this way. I'd be interested to know if anyone does that on a regular basis. ::shrugs:: maybe they do.
In the end, the vast majority of the content you're talking about there is geared towards the solo player, with an occasional team to overcome a tough mission thrown in only occasionally. Only datamining on the part of the devs would say for sure, but I wonder just what the difference is between police band teaming and story arc/oroborous teaming? My money's on police band, and hence my stance that farming in one form or another, while perhaps not intended to be a key role, plays a far bigger roll in this game than you're suggesting.
...now if they were to, say, give some sort of compensation to the story arc holder's teammates, then my opinion would likely be more in line with yours.
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That's all very valid. I'm not sure how it relates to my argument that farming isn't a key feature of the game though. If story arcs and missions are geared towards the solo player because the rewards are only given the mission holder, then how does that make farming a key aspect of the game when the mission is intentionally not completed so those rewards are never given out?
To be certain, there are a lot of weaknesses in the way story arcs and missions and task forces are handled. There are strengths also, but there are definitely weaknesses. Things are better now in that there are more things to do and a high-level character can find a lot more variety than he could before, but there are still weaknesses. How do these weaknesses of the mission design make farming a key aspect of the game?
Is farming necessary? No. Some people may debate this and say "you can't get influence and purples unless you farm", but that's B.S. What they're saying is "I want to get TONS of influence and LOTS of purples, and farming is the most efficient way of doing that." That's accurate. It's stupid, but accurate (and yes, I'll gladly debate the "stupid" part).
Is farming endorsed or encouraged by the devs? No. It never has been.
Is farming part of the game design? No.
If it's not necessary, designed, endorsed, or encouraged, how can it be considered a key part of gameplay? It can't.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
But that's my point - it is encouraged. Not explicitly, but by design.
You say farming isn't a key element to the game. Well, by your definition police bands are there if you need a quick mission. They award only experience and random drops, and give that experience to every member of the team. They're quick, easy, and mindless by necessity - since they rely on three or four basic templates with random semi-plots and enemy groups thrown in. And since they're so quick, easy and mindless they are very good for grinding through levels where you - as you pointed out - have outlevelled all your contacts.
What they are, however, is a GRIND. I don't know anyone who actually enjoys police band as a valid content experience for any length of time. Most teams do police band because it's the easiest way to keep the entire team happy and LEVELLING - usually at a fairly quick pace. Thus my assertion that police band missions - as they're used - are in fact experience farming. Can you enjoy them as content? Sure. For brief periods. That doesn't discount the point that pick up groups far and away run police band more than any other mission. Why? Not because they enjoy the content, I'm sure. The fact is that they're doing it solely for the experience gain. Police bands are an effective way to maximize experience per hour, and are played as such. How is that NOT farming?
So my point in hilighting my problems with story arcs is that the implementation and design of the story arc system is inadvertently geared towards solo play, and since team play IS a key factor in this game (if not THE key factor in any MMO) - and since teams are consequently farming police band missions - that the implementation of the story arc content amounts more or less to an implicit encouragement for teams to farm experience via police band.
So, whether you want to admit it or not, farming as described above is a key element of this game, and IS inadvertently encouraged due to the deficiencies in the story arc system and the nature of MMO teaming.
But like I said, if certain changes were made to the story arc system that encouraged teams to actually run them....
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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But that's my point - it is encouraged. Not explicitly, but by design.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's not true. "Design" implies intent. Purposely not completing a mission so you can focus on drops is not an intent.
At one point in the past, a tank was able to run through multiple spawns with his aggro aura turned on. All mobs would run to him and he could jump into a dumpster to break line of sight. This caused the mobs to jump into the dumpster with him so they could attack, and collision detection allowed 30 mobs to climb into that one dumpster. Then his fiery aura or a blaster with AoEs would take them all out.
That was never intended, but the way the game was designed allowed it. It was certainly not a key aspect of the game, and it was certainly never encouraged. It turned out to to be so distasteful to the devs that they put specific code in to prevent that from happening.
Now, in our discussion of farming, it's occurring to me that we're both defining the term "farming" in two different ways. You're looking at basically any repetitive action (radio missions, classic farms, task forces, etc.), and I'm looking at specifically the actions that I see advertised in broadcast chat in Peregrine. I won't believe that the devs encourage that as content. You'll never hear a dev posting a message here stating "we don't think enough people are farming. We designed the game so that you can run that same mission over and over and over again to have a better chance of getting purples, so you guys should really take advantage of that." It's not their intent, and because the game mechanics allows you to do that as a side effect of certain actions (leaving the mission, selecting another mission, reselecting the first) does not mean it's part of the design.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
[ QUOTE ]
That was never intended, but the way the game was designed allowed it. It was certainly not a key aspect of the game, and it was certainly never encouraged. It turned out to to be so distasteful to the devs that they put specific code in to prevent that from happening.
[/ QUOTE ]
We're in agreement on this. I don't believe for a minute that the devs actually intended for people to exclusively play police band from 5-45 and to farm in the traditional sense from 45-50. Yet that's increasingly becoming the norm. Not because it's intended, but because - as you said - the design allows it. I've made the case, however, that in this case the design not only allows it, it encourages it.
[ QUOTE ]
Now, in our discussion of farming, it's occurring to me that we're both defining the term "farming" in two different ways. You're looking at basically any repetitive action (radio missions, classic farms, task forces, etc.), and I'm looking at specifically the actions that I see advertised in broadcast chat in Peregrine. I won't believe that the devs encourage that as content. You'll never hear a dev posting a message here stating "we don't think enough people are farming. We designed the game so that you can run that same mission over and over and over again to have a better chance of getting purples, so you guys should really take advantage of that." It's not their intent, and because the game mechanics allows you to do that as a side effect of certain actions (leaving the mission, selecting another mission, reselecting the first) does not mean it's part of the design.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not so much that we have different definitions of farming, but that mine appears to be a fair bit broader. I maintain such a wide definition because I believe that farming in the repetitive task sense inevitably (in most cases) leads to the kind of farms on which your focusing.
No one quits a police band mission before the end because the end is the reward. Playing a mission through to the end repeatedly is well within the scope of the devs' definition of farming, else they would never have nerfed the "Quick Katies" or altered the amount of merits some story arcs give. Police band missions are no different in practice, and in fact contribute to the thought process that justifies that kind of farming.
Think about this: a player playing from 1-50 heroside will start off in the sewers, and the most common destination after that is King's Row and a police scanner. Then it's scanner missions up to at least the Atlas Park bank and the first temp power, but nine times out of ten it's scanners until the mid twenties, when it's off to Striga or some other area and you get his or her first story arc.
The playing difference is staggering. If they solo them they'll likely finish the arcs in a good amount of time. If they team it'll take considerably longer mainly because teams want to do missions from the highest level person, and usually want a fairly quick turnaround time maximizing experience and action per time played. That means more scanner missions. By the end of the story arcs he or she does run it'll be slowing down considerably on experience gain when solo, and the only teaming experience - and the only quick levelling experience - they'll have had is still police bands, and hence it's more of the same through the thirties.
By the time they've gotten through the thirties it becomes very hard to see the ethical difference between the repetitive police bands they've been slogging through and the repetitive single mission they never finish. Just like there's no end to that farming mission, there's no end to police bands. There's no climax, no ultimate reward that you can only get once. There's just the mathematics of experience gain and another bank robbery at a scheduled interval.
My argument isn't that farming in the sense you describe is a key component to the game - it's that the design of the game allows and encourages farming behavior and inevitably leads to that kind of farming, and so the concept of farming is indeed inherent to CoX gameplay.
So what's my point? Nerf police bands? No. Of course not. My point - and my hope - is that the story arc system can and will be modified so that the plots and rewards are shared equally among members of a team - any team - that completes them.
In an ideal situation, players joining a team that's just starting another player's story arc would get all the clues, and if they leave before the arc is complete then they are awarded that contact and arc, with credit for completion up to that point. THen they get the chance to finish it on their own. Players who were sidekicked and leave early would be barred from further missions within that arc until they are the appropriate level.
Conversely, players who come in late to an arc will have their clues caught up, and will get the same reward as anyone else on the team who finishes that arc.
This way, teams are encouraged to do story arc missions if only because they all get the arc. No one is punished for coming in late or leaving early, and all missions are automatically completed once for all players still on the team.
Reward teams for experiencing story arc content, and more people will enjoy that content. And less people will find themselves justifying the more traditional farms.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
[ QUOTE ]
That was a very good farming guide! It covered all of the basics very clearly, and stressed good etiquette. Very nicely done.
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Do you REALLY think that the devs have no clue about farming? It's a well known legitimate way of playing high-level characters. It is somewhat frowned upon, at least as far as PLing is concerned, but 'normal' farming such as wall farming and NON pl farming is strongly, if not actively, encouraged.
Do you REALLY think that the devs expect you to be able to assemble a full set of purples (or the wherewithal to afford them) just running normal content? 'farming' is simply an efficient way of grinding, and one that requires specialized builds and/or archetypes.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you're a little delusional if you think in any way the devs "encourage" people to farm. The devs want people to play the game. They want people to enjoy the content. That's it. They've stated several times that they'd like people to play a variety of content. If they encouraged people to play the same missions over and over again, they wouldn't have put in the mechanism for diminishing returns when running task forces. They also wouldn't have put in the code where spawns are calculated for team size as you approach them, necessitating the need for mapping the mission out before fillers leave.
I fully believe the devs see the farming and leave it at that, but that given their preferences, people would be playing the game for the content, rather than grinding it for the rewards.
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Actually the DEVs want you to do whatever you like that keeps your $15 dollars (more if you have multi accounts) a month rolling in.
Also they want you to be hyped about Champions Online.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That was a very good farming guide! It covered all of the basics very clearly, and stressed good etiquette. Very nicely done.
[ QUOTE ]
Do you REALLY think that the devs have no clue about farming? It's a well known legitimate way of playing high-level characters. It is somewhat frowned upon, at least as far as PLing is concerned, but 'normal' farming such as wall farming and NON pl farming is strongly, if not actively, encouraged.
Do you REALLY think that the devs expect you to be able to assemble a full set of purples (or the wherewithal to afford them) just running normal content? 'farming' is simply an efficient way of grinding, and one that requires specialized builds and/or archetypes.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you're a little delusional if you think in any way the devs "encourage" people to farm. The devs want people to play the game. They want people to enjoy the content. That's it. They've stated several times that they'd like people to play a variety of content. If they encouraged people to play the same missions over and over again, they wouldn't have put in the mechanism for diminishing returns when running task forces. They also wouldn't have put in the code where spawns are calculated for team size as you approach them, necessitating the need for mapping the mission out before fillers leave.
I fully believe the devs see the farming and leave it at that, but that given their preferences, people would be playing the game for the content, rather than grinding it for the rewards.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually the DEVs want you to do whatever you like that keeps your $15 dollars (more if you have multi accounts) a month rolling in.
Also they want you to be hyped about Champions Online.
[/ QUOTE ]
LOL, you haven't actually played Champions Online yet, have you?
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That was never intended, but the way the game was designed allowed it. It was certainly not a key aspect of the game, and it was certainly never encouraged. It turned out to to be so distasteful to the devs that they put specific code in to prevent that from happening.
[/ QUOTE ]
We're in agreement on this. I don't believe for a minute that the devs actually intended for people to exclusively play police band from 5-45 and to farm in the traditional sense from 45-50. Yet that's increasingly becoming the norm. Not because it's intended, but because - as you said - the design allows it. I've made the case, however, that in this case the design not only allows it, it encourages it.
[ QUOTE ]
Now, in our discussion of farming, it's occurring to me that we're both defining the term "farming" in two different ways. You're looking at basically any repetitive action (radio missions, classic farms, task forces, etc.), and I'm looking at specifically the actions that I see advertised in broadcast chat in Peregrine. I won't believe that the devs encourage that as content. You'll never hear a dev posting a message here stating "we don't think enough people are farming. We designed the game so that you can run that same mission over and over and over again to have a better chance of getting purples, so you guys should really take advantage of that." It's not their intent, and because the game mechanics allows you to do that as a side effect of certain actions (leaving the mission, selecting another mission, reselecting the first) does not mean it's part of the design.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not so much that we have different definitions of farming, but that mine appears to be a fair bit broader. I maintain such a wide definition because I believe that farming in the repetitive task sense inevitably (in most cases) leads to the kind of farms on which your focusing.
No one quits a police band mission before the end because the end is the reward. Playing a mission through to the end repeatedly is well within the scope of the devs' definition of farming, else they would never have nerfed the "Quick Katies" or altered the amount of merits some story arcs give. Police band missions are no different in practice, and in fact contribute to the thought process that justifies that kind of farming.
Think about this: a player playing from 1-50 heroside will start off in the sewers, and the most common destination after that is King's Row and a police scanner. Then it's scanner missions up to at least the Atlas Park bank and the first temp power, but nine times out of ten it's scanners until the mid twenties, when it's off to Striga or some other area and you get his or her first story arc.
The playing difference is staggering. If they solo them they'll likely finish the arcs in a good amount of time. If they team it'll take considerably longer mainly because teams want to do missions from the highest level person, and usually want a fairly quick turnaround time maximizing experience and action per time played. That means more scanner missions. By the end of the story arcs he or she does run it'll be slowing down considerably on experience gain when solo, and the only teaming experience - and the only quick levelling experience - they'll have had is still police bands, and hence it's more of the same through the thirties.
By the time they've gotten through the thirties it becomes very hard to see the ethical difference between the repetitive police bands they've been slogging through and the repetitive single mission they never finish. Just like there's no end to that farming mission, there's no end to police bands. There's no climax, no ultimate reward that you can only get once. There's just the mathematics of experience gain and another bank robbery at a scheduled interval.
My argument isn't that farming in the sense you describe is a key component to the game - it's that the design of the game allows and encourages farming behavior and inevitably leads to that kind of farming, and so the concept of farming is indeed inherent to CoX gameplay.
So what's my point? Nerf police bands? No. Of course not. My point - and my hope - is that the story arc system can and will be modified so that the plots and rewards are shared equally among members of a team - any team - that completes them.
In an ideal situation, players joining a team that's just starting another player's story arc would get all the clues, and if they leave before the arc is complete then they are awarded that contact and arc, with credit for completion up to that point. THen they get the chance to finish it on their own. Players who were sidekicked and leave early would be barred from further missions within that arc until they are the appropriate level.
Conversely, players who come in late to an arc will have their clues caught up, and will get the same reward as anyone else on the team who finishes that arc.
This way, teams are encouraged to do story arc missions if only because they all get the arc. No one is punished for coming in late or leaving early, and all missions are automatically completed once for all players still on the team.
Reward teams for experiencing story arc content, and more people will enjoy that content. And less people will find themselves justifying the more traditional farms.
[/ QUOTE ]
I fully expect that the merit system will be broadened so that if you're running an arc with a team, everybody will get some kind of merit bonus. The goal of the merit system was never to shaft anybody, but to give everyone a reliable way to work towards a particular reward they wanted. With the old system of random rolls, you could run the same task force a hundred times and still never get that recipe you wanted. With merits, those special recipes are now something you can plan for and eventually get just by playing the game. With all of the input from the players about it not being worthwhile to complete other people's arcs, I have a very strong feeling that some changes will be eventually made to allow everyone to experience the rewards. I like the idea of having every individual mission in an arc give a reward of a merit, and the completion of the arc a few extra merits. This, as a starting point, could alleviate a lot of the complaints.
And yes, I'm being much more restrictive in my use of the word "farming", referring specifically to the Peregrine chat. "Will pay for farm!", "LFF", "Perma46 LFF", "Farm LFM". It's that particular kind of farm I find distasteful. The very fact that you either are willing to pay to join a team, or charging people to allow them to join, clearly means there is something different and unique about them. Nobody pays or charges to join regular mission or radio teams, regardless of the reasons. With all of the examples you bring up about "farming", you have to admit that the one I'm referring to is unique in that people either charge or pay for the privilege of being a part of it. People have to actually specify in chat that they're "looking for a free farm".
With the normal radio missions, even if you think of it as "farming", the chat is mainly normal "Level 50 xxx LFT". Or "Radio/mission team LFM". The goal? Usually to get experience. Throughout the entire game, from the first levels to the end levels, you never (or virtually never) hear anyone asking for money or offering money to join a team. When you hit Peregrine with the farming I'm referring to, suddenly it's the norm. That alone suggests there's something unique about those farms.
Another example..... we had a radio team going in PI. I was leveling up my defender. We were moving quickly, going from mission to mission, fighting AVs at the bank every five missions or so. We eventually lost people but recruited more. As we're about to start the mission, one recruit realized we were just going to run radio missions for exp so we could level (it was 2XP weekend). He said "If we're not farming, I'm leaving!" and instantly quit. Besides being rude (and stupid because he was still looking for his beloved farm team an hour later), he felt that what we were doing wasn't true "farming".
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
Just for the sake of accuracy, has anyone mentioned yet that the BM farm also requies clicking a single glowie to complete?
We're actually fairly close to the same page on this.
Yes I'll freely admit that the pay-for-farm experience farm is farming at its worst and is a unique and specifically offensive example of farming.
My only point is that farming in the broader definition still encourages that specific kind of end-game farm.
That player who quit if you weren't farming? He was probably sick and tired of the grind of police band after police band. Nine out of ten players I've known have become so deadened to the police band experience by the time they reach Peregrine Island that they just want to finish off their character and get to fifty. Your old enemies like Arachnos, the Council, and CoT have gotten much trickier to defeat, and new enemies like Nemesis, Carnies, and Malta appear in much larger numbers. As such, it gets tricky to find a team willing to do an entire arc of just one enemy.
Add to that the fact that Unai Kensai is one of the easiest contacts to get an arc from, and a player is supplied with a ready arc full of missions that are typically farmed. The lure of farming seems to get pretty tempting at that point.
Admit it yourself; if more people had more reason to team up through the story arcs and less reason to run police band on big teams, there would be a lot less burnout in the forties - burnout that can and does lead to the very kind of farming that you're protesting.
You're expecting a broadening of the merit system to reward everyone on a team in a story arc, and I'm with you all the way on that. In fact, I might just have to close my part of this discussion down and head on over to the suggestion forums where it would be better placed.
Probably a couple of threads about it already.
Good debating with you, Barata!
::Grabs megaphone and heads over to the suggestion forums::
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
And with you. 
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
Not sure if this was mentioned in the guide so I will add it. For Fire/Kin's Hover + swift + siphon speed can lead to a fast travel power. Also when fighting those darn axe weiding bosses in Warrior Clan/BM farms and Demon bosses...when you are in the air out of melee range they use the wimpy ranged attacks. Also make sure you have some form of knockback protection...the crossbows do KB and you will basically be held for a couple seconds w/o it.
Playing on Freedom
QR, on the ORIGINAL topic, instead of debating the ethics of farming.
One small thing: I would like to note that the "top 3 farmers" for hero-side seems a bit off. Spines/Fire is a pretty rarely-seen farming build (at least on freedom, where I farm blueside). Conversely, 'classic' farmers such as fire tanks are far more commonly seen (at least in my experience). IMHO, Spine/fire should be removed from this list and fire/ice, ice/fire, or fire/ss added in its place.
This is not a signature.
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Do not send people tells asking them to powerlevel you.
[/ QUOTE ] Can you bold, italisize and underline this.