Vigilantes as a third Designation
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2008-12-16 09:22 in Suggestions and Ideas
Not... Quite, Azzerath.
A Vigilante is someone who works outside of the law to do the right thing, usually. In htis particular case I'm casting Vigilantes as characters who walk the line between good and evil. People who will work as Heroes in the Isles and Villains in PAragon... Or vice versa without issue.
Batman is an example of a Vigilante/ So is 'The Spirit' (HORRIBLE Movie, BTW) in that neither of them accept the 'Law' as 'Justice'. Batman knows criminals can get away with stuff in court, so he finds them, catches them red-handed, and keeps doing it 'til it sticks.
Of course, Officially the Police are obliged to arrest Batman on sight. But they don't.
Why?
Fear? Respect? The knowledge that even if his methods are questionable he is still trying to help?
So no. I wouldn't have Vigilantes hunted down.
Sorry to double-post!
-Rachel-
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I like it - especially the concept of a mish to get forged documents. Their training mish or something like that.
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That could definitely be something in their initial missions.
Contact 1: "Look, yer gonna need something to get you past the gates. Go to XXXXX, and talk to them about. Tell'em I sent ya."
Contact 2: "You need a working ID card, eh? Ok. I know a guy who knows a lady. They won't want to help right away. They might need some .. convincing. Go to *Location*. (Mission door, defeat boss, get Glowie #1 and 2)
Contact 1: "Good job, newbie. I think you just miught have what it takes."
Level Up to Level 2. Choose starting Location. Begin Fun.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
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The only problem I have with that, Prodiguy, is that I'm doing my best to add another element of difficulty into getting into the Hazard Zones. For Immersion's sake, if nothing else. These characters already have free access to, as I said before, 20 city zones.
I feel that requiring a short mission to get 'keyed' up for Hazard Zones is sufficient... but not less than that for my purposes. Initially I wanted them only able to enter through a sewer map or through the help of a registered hero.
The Mission idea was my farthest reaching compromise on that issue, but noone seems really willing to meet me in the middle, there. Risk Versus Reward is why I'm putting the Hazard Zones into such a difficult state. You've got all these other zones to play in, zones other heroes and villains will NEVER go to. You have to 'pay' for it, somehow.
-Rachel-
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Actually, I was all for the idea of limiting their access to 'restricted' zones like the Shard, or the Hazard Zones. I liked the Sewer idea because that's how I thought Villains would get around in Paragon (before I knew they had their own playground).
Personally, I wouldn't want any way for them to enter the Hazard zones solo except for a 'new' sewer system that linked all the Hazard zones, PvP zones and such from, say, Atlas, Galaxy and Mercy, all the starting zones. It would only link to PvP/Hazard zones, though, so they could 'tram' to all other open zones.
Or ferry. Different 'rides for different sides, as the saying goes.
Or something similar.
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The only problem I have with that, Prodiguy, is that I'm doing my best to add another element of difficulty into getting into the Hazard Zones. For Immersion's sake, if nothing else. These characters already have free access to, as I said before, 20 city zones.
I feel that requiring a short mission to get 'keyed' up for Hazard Zones is sufficient... but not less than that for my purposes. Initially I wanted them only able to enter through a sewer map or through the help of a registered hero.
The Mission idea was my farthest reaching compromise on that issue, but noone seems really willing to meet me in the middle, there. Risk Versus Reward is why I'm putting the Hazard Zones into such a difficult state. You've got all these other zones to play in, zones other heroes and villains will NEVER go to. You have to 'pay' for it, somehow.
-Rachel-
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And the only problem with THAT is that if you make something too hard (or time consuming) for the average player - they just avoid it. If it's too much "hassle" to go to those zones, the average player will just avoid it. The average player is like a lightning bolt from the heavens - they always seek the path of least resistance.
Sure, make them 'Pay' for it - but do it early, and make it quick. Locking people out of certain areas just because you think it's right for 'immersion' - it won't work for the general population, and it's really not fair to expect them to want to play the same way you do.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
Either they make their own ID, or they have to pay Influence/Infamy to get in or out, based on their level. Or Both even.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
Tiny... Don't take this the wrong way but.. ahh... >.>
That's the whole freaking point.
Most players -won't- bother if they have to run through the sewers to get to a Hazard Zone... They still have over 20 OTHER zones to play in.
It makes Hazard zones a difficult and interesting place to go. And since the Hollows has a Hospital in it, now, and Dark Astoria as well... I don't see why the Devs -don't- give all the Hazard Zones their own Hospitals.
In which case this would be a fantastic set up. Sure it's hard to get in, easy to get out, but you don't have to hit the sewers every time you get defeated.
Of course you could just head in on a team of heroes, ditch, and go about your business...
Also! Striga would -NOT- be gated beyond Level. Even as a Hazard Zone it has no guards. just two surly looking sailors next to the cargo ship door.
-Rachel-
Your "point" is to make it annoying to the players? Kudos to you. You really "Get" gaming in general, don't you?
It doesn't make the Hazard zones "more interesting". It makes them what they are now - Avoided by Many. If that's what you want, you already have it.
Enjoy. Bye.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
What I want is the rest of it, Tiny.
But with the 20+ zones that these characters can already enter freely, making a new sewer map to get TO the Hazard Zones and such would be in-line with concept.
Make it so ANYONE can use those sewers and you might wind up with more people in the Hazard Zones as they explore the new sewers... Specifically if it has new villaingroups or encounters and some new tilesets.
-Rachel-
The hospital is another issue - there would need to be something to handle the injured vigilante who gets tp to safety of the hospital... How did they get the tech to do that? That is licensed tech for heroes. I don't play the villain side so do they have something similar? That would be a quick way to get arrested for a vigilante unless he had a contact who nursed him back to health.
/meh
Limiting it to certain ATs seems like a good idea at first glance, since you're looking to be thematic with things, but people simply like to play their ATs, and would probably be a bit ticked if theirs wasn't on the list.
Other than that, it could use some work, but all ideas could.
The thing with the villain vs. hero zones...Villains are never actually sent to their hazard zones. So access to them being more difficult is meaningless since you may never go there anyway. (Honestly, is there even a point to Monster Island?), but eventually, almost ever hero contact sends you to a hazard zone at some point.
A possibility I see for that is you end up at the PPD jail instead...with your lawyer meeting. Instead of being debt to the city or Recluse for dying, it's debt to a lawyer for getting your butt out of trouble.
Actually, I have an idea for the new sewer layer. Don't make it a sewer. Could make it like 'Snake tunnels' or something. Some groups, not necessarilly snakes, excavated tunnels to sneak around paragon, and vigilante's happen to be able to benefit from it. Could even make it like 'Igneous tunnels' and add them to some other zones besides the Hollows.
That's actually a really strong rationale, Xenosnake. Though the game doesn't describe who, how, or why only Heroes and Villains get mediported. Only that they do.
This is a strong example of what the general vagaries of those facts lead to. We could have them go to jail, we could have them mediport like normal.
Depends on the Devs, ultimately.
Sigium? I limited the ATs for several reasons. First: To create a third 'faction' that has similar options to both the created factions, rather than 'all or Nothing'. People who Love Masterminds and Controllers still have to hang on to one side or the other, which keeps the player base at least somewhat anchored on both sides, rather than a completely random tide of 'everyone is a hero!' and 'Everyone is a villain!'
-Rachel-
PS! As for the Tunnels... Actually we -could- use dozens of different tunnels connecting different zones. We know the Council and (possibly) the Column use bunkers and tunnels. The Trolls as well, Igneus, Nemesis' mole-machines, The Snakes.
I think it's a fantastic idea to have different tunnel systems to get to different locations, AND to have some of them intersect.
-Rachel-
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Classes available would be Blaster, Brute, Stalker, Defender, Dominator, and Scrapper.
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I think the idea has potential, but I don't see any reason why it should be limited to the above six AT's. I'd suggest allowing all AT's, or at least all non-epic AT's.
I don't think the Vigilantes should have restricted access to the zones specified. Just allow them to go where they please, as though they were on the side needed to access the zone. Same for task forces and the like.
Similarly, don't require players to go to a pvp/co-op zone to switch sides. The vigilante should acquire the "turncoat" ability at some point and be able to switch factions automatically whenever needed (i.e., when entering a hero zone, he/she would automatically be flagged as a hero). If the Vigilante enters a pvp zone from a villain zone, he/she fights as a villain. If from a hero zone, he/she fights as a hero.
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influence and infamy
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Whether the character collects influence/infamy would be dependent on their AT (opposite of normal). Villain AT's would acquire influence, and Hero AT's would acquire infamy. This would not change over the Vigilante's career.
So they could be whatever they want, go wherever they want, and do whatever they want?
I don't see any downside there. That's a bad thing.
The six ATs make sense, and give limits. The need to either team or find a work-around to getting in to restricted zones gives limits.
You can't just have a character that can be any AT on either side that can go anywhere they want.
Why not?
Because why would ANYONE play a Hero or Villain?
<QR>
I like the concept overall, but I didn't like some of your AT choices:
Brute: aside from Hulk, can't think of any other heroic Brute (could be wrong on this tho), plus they most probably cause more destruction than good, Corrs or MMs would be a better choice (and as much as I'm against of the "Commander" AT, I have to say that MMs fit the bill better).
Also, Brutes are not the only ones tied to the whole "but he means well" thing.
Defender: Well, they don't sound that much vigilanty, I mean, their motto is to defend people, I guess that Controllers would fit better (and they're also buff-related).
I'm also against they being able to travel back and forth, sure they're in the middle, but doesn't mean that they're free to do whatever they want, as much as you can couple them together, anti-heroes such as Wolverine as still different from anti-villains such as Deadpool.
Anti-heroes are just heroes that think it's ok to use lethal force or do other un-heroic deeds; while anti-villains are pretty much just villains with some sort of honor code that benefits other people such as....let's say....not steal money from old ladies nor harm kids.
Maybe the Vigilante could be its own AT? It could do branching. For example, you can have:
The modifiers would be 1.0 for Melee, Range, and Resistance/Defense.
Ice Powers (Primary only)
1.Ice Bolt
1.Block of Ice
1.Frozen Fists
2.Frozen Armor
2.Ice Blast
2.Frost Bite
4.Chilling Embrace
4.Frost Breath
4.Ice Sword
6- Branch.
Ice Control
6. Arctic Air
8. Snow Storm
10. Shiver
12. Ice Slick
16. Infridgidate
18. Glacier
20. Stamina (Tight Build purposes)
26. Frost Work
28. Sleet
30. Freezing Rain
32. Jack Frost
35. Benumb
38. Heat Loss
(Can't think of anything else past 38)
Ice Manipulator
6. Aim
8. Freeze Ray
10. Frost
12. Ice Sword Circle
16.Build up
18. Bitter Ice Blast
20. Stamina
26. Bitter Freeze Ray
28. Freezing Touch
30. Ice Patch
32. Blizzard
35. Greater Ice Sword
38. Frozen Aura
Ice Scrapper (basically)
6.Frost
8.Hoarfrost
10. Ice Sword Circle
12. Wet Ice
16. Build Up
18. Freezing Touch
20. Stamina
26. Glacial Armor
28. Ice Patch
30. Frozen Aura
32. Greater Ice Sword
35. Energy Absorption
38. Hibernate
Thanks for all the responses!
Alright, Larpus! The -other- reason I used Brutes instead of Corruptors or Masterminds was the need for a 'Tanker' type role. If you'll take a second glance I tried to cover each of the major roles once, with Stalkers 'extra' because I wanted to keep the sides fairly balanced.
The five core roles are Brick, Blast, Buff/Debuff/ Control, and Meleer.
For Brick you basically have two options: Tanker and Brute
Blast has One Option: Blaster
Buff/Debuff has two options: Defender and Corruptor
Meleer has three options: Scrapper, Stalker, and Brute
Control has two options: Controller or Dominator
I consider Masterminds to be Tankmages. I've got a 50 Thugs/Dark who is all but unkillable. So I feel I'm well-informed on that.
So when I went to choose I immediately grabbed Blaster. It was the only true 'Blast' type character. Corruptors -can- be blasty, but I find their abilities to be about evenly split between buff/debuff and damage whilst a Defender has a similar (but more weighted) split.
For Meleer I went straight for Scrappers. They're sturdy, capable, and balanced, making them awesome solo.
For Brick I went Tank. Right off the bat! I was just -certain- that tankers should be the ones to swap over.
When I took a look at control, I thought: Dominators would bring more control to the table -without- bringing more Buff/Debuff. Heroside you have 2 buffing classes. Villainside you have 2 buffing classes. Putting a fourth on either side seemed a bit redundant, since I planned on putting a buffer in as well.
But then I hit the Buff/Debuff -wall-. I had the choice of four ATs with Buffs. MMs (HAH!) Corruptors, Defenders, and Controllers. Now... Which of these focuses on it's area the best? Corruptors, Controllers, and MMs all push Buff/Debuff to their secondary. So a Defender is the optimal choice, I think. They've got the 'Borderline Evil' powersets. It wouldn't shock me too badly to see a Defender player Roleplaying his Dark/Dark defender as a soul-sucking demon-wraith. Or a Rad/Rad defender permanently neutering her opponents by irradiating their testes.
But now, with Blaster, Scrapper, Tanker, Dominator, and Defender... I've got 4 hero ATs being proliferated and only 1 Villain AT. What was I thinking?!
So I slapped Stalker in there. It seemed reasonable to put in another 'solo' archetype that has been so widely revered in comics. From Ninjas to Batman to Ninja Batman!
Then I took a solid look at the split. And thought Brutes should be the class that crosses over instead of tanks.
Villainside Gains: Primary Buff/Debuff AT. Primary Ranged Damage Secondary Control/More damage AT. Another Melee AT that performs slightly better than Stalkers in a long-term fight.
Heroside Gains: Primary Control/Damage archetype. Primary Damage/Defense better suited for long-duration fights. Primary Damage/Defense better suited for short-term fights.
I'd prefer to avoid proliferating tankmages. They're one of the major draws of villainside.
As an alternative: Drop Scrapper and Brute, Insert Corruptor and Tanker. Let the Stalker be the meleer AT that gets shifted over, Tankers are the Brick, and Corruptors are the Wild-Card, which keeps the Buff/Debuff balance (more or less!)
Would that work better?
As for PvPPleaseHelpMe
Sorry to sadden you... But yeah. Prodiguy basically got my intent. If you make Vigilantes able to go anywhere and be anything we'll wind up with City of Vigilantes.
Ventogator
I'm sorry... No. A Vigilante is just another hero heading out to do his or her heroics. By the true meaning of the word all the 'Hero ATs' heading to the Isles would be doing so soley for the purpose of fighting crime, there. All the 'Villain ATs' coming to Paragon are doing it to fight crime.
At least with the Fake ID idea a player could Roleplay his or her villain as coming to Paragon to foul things up, perhaps with a Vendetta against a specific villain group *cough*Crey!*cough!*
And Larpus again!
The initial concept of Vigilantes would be Anti-Heroes. Sad as that is. =-( There really isn't a way to do true Anti-Villains in this game except to re-write all the heroside content specifically for those players. Not Adding arcs: Full Re-writes of all conversations.
I really can't see that happening... So Vigilantes is my suggestion.
-Rachel-
My redsiders would use turncoat just to take advantage of the availability of recipes in the blueside market, and then switch back.
Actually... No. He wouldn't.
If you read further up ALL Vigilantes use only the Black Market.
Either they're not trusted enough for Wentworth's or they don't want to take the risk of hanging out in a public place for -too- long. But they have to hit the Isles and the Black Market to do any shopping.
So that little exploit is already covered! =-3
-Rachel-
This is pehaps the best "Side-Switching" idea I have ever seen! Very much and emphatically: /signed
One thing overlooked is there is one Vigilantes-ish group in game.
Hero Corps. (HC)
The semi-irony is that having them as your Group could help work the ideas.
Getting to hazard zones? lvl 5+ mission given by a HC for a 'false' or temp pass, allowing you into the areas. another option would be vans (run by HC) that would work similar to the current doors, but perhaps require a single mission to first allow you to enter the zone.
Gating an area by distance, such as using a sewer network feels wrong for this type of game.. But perhaps this is my bias showing up from other games where you have to run everywhere.
Another thought is have the "break-in" tutorial separate from breakout/outbreak, I know SOA's do not go though breakout and i think Kelds do not either.
Why not give the Vigilantes their own tutorials, perhaps scriped more as an intro course into the HC? (Tutorial=intro training eh?)
Ideas for sure, but the genral play you have sounds really good, I'd play it at least 
~ I am Mender Sirbil Xe I do not know who this Ex Libris is that you speak of. ~
And the thread rises from page 26 back to the front. Who Necroed my thread?!
Ah. Not important. I'll just start in on it, again.
Break-In
A Ship, located somewhere between the Isles and Paragon, populated by a new group of NPCs, a group of heroes who are labeled Villains during the late 80s for their brutality against the criminals they captured, or framed for crimes they didn't commit. People who, born and raised in the Isles, still have morals and wish to help the Etoille, to save their people from Recluse.
These Vigilantes will be the contacts that, initially, send you through the 'Break In' arc. It might -also- be wise to scatter a few of them through the Isles and Paragon, after the tutorial, as Vigilante contacts whom you do missions for. OR you could have a second instance of the zone, where higher level Vigilantes can return to between trips from one side to the other.
Seven part mission, starting in a specific zone for Vigilantes.
First three missions are your generic 'Go To' training missions. Followed by a mission based on your AT. Hero ATs head back to Paragon, Villain ATs go to the Isles.
Hero ATs wind up trying to get into City Hall after dark. There are a few guards in the area, all easily dispatched without being allowed to raise an alarm or recognize the player. After sneaking or fighting their way through the guards the Vigilante must alter their records in City Hall and then take copies of the information back to the contact, so a Hero License can be forged and security levels altered.
At the end of the mission the Vigilante is level 2.
Villain ATs must go through a similar mission inside Fort Cerberus to alter the Destined One list. They then retrieve all the data on themselves to make copies so that their threat level can be altered.
Each Vigilante must then return to their contact who sends them to the opposite mission. Hero AT Vigilantes head to the Isles and Vice Versa.
The Vigilante, then, must choose which side to start on, Etoille or Paragon, and perform a short transitory mission involving the character slipping past or fighting through mixed RIP/Arachnos Agents or mixed PPD/Lonbow to get to a door at the end of the mission map.
At that point they Exit into the Starting Zone, Galaxy, Atlas, or Mercy and immediately become level 3. They are assigned their starting contact as normal, and begin their careers.
Hero Corps doesn't work well because they aren't Vigilantes, they're Mercenaries. They also have 0 presence in the Isles.
Another idea that hit me whilst playing an Arachnos Agent gone Rogue, using her knowledge of Arachnos against the large foe to slip into various installations with stolen identification. Epic Archetypes going 'Rogue' or Vigilante.
Would anyone get behind Arachnos Agents and Kheldians as Vigilantes, for players who have broken the level 50 barrier for the specific side? Or should Vigilantes have their own 'Epic' AT?
-Rachel-
The only problem I have with that, Prodiguy, is that I'm doing my best to add another element of difficulty into getting into the Hazard Zones. For Immersion's sake, if nothing else. These characters already have free access to, as I said before, 20 city zones.
I feel that requiring a short mission to get 'keyed' up for Hazard Zones is sufficient... but not less than that for my purposes. Initially I wanted them only able to enter through a sewer map or through the help of a registered hero.
The Mission idea was my farthest reaching compromise on that issue, but noone seems really willing to meet me in the middle, there. Risk Versus Reward is why I'm putting the Hazard Zones into such a difficult state. You've got all these other zones to play in, zones other heroes and villains will NEVER go to. You have to 'pay' for it, somehow.
-Rachel-