Discussion: Positron and Castle on Warcry.com
By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2008-04-21 14:58 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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He's also excited about the addition of traditional RPG branching tree dialogue, something they didn't have in City of Heroes until this Issue and will now begin to use quite a bit.
"In this issue it's just the test bed for it, we got the tech late into the development process so we were not able to use it everywhere we wanted to," said Miller.
This allows them to put options into conversations or theoretically do things like present players with situations like which wire to cut when diffusing a bomb. It sounds simple, but it makes their options as mission designers much greater.
Miller could not - however - comment on whether they plan to go back over old content and backwards integrate this technology.
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ZOMG YAY
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What she said!
How exactly did this tidbit get buried in the back of a third-party interview? This is a serious potential paradigm shift.
-D
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As I believe the article alludes, the tech for this is only now coming to fruition, so it use in Issue 12 content is not likely to be heavy, nor, as I understand it, will Issue 12 involve heavy revamp of existing content making use of the new tech. So, from an Issue 12 perspective, it's a minor addition. It is pretty big for what we can do going forward, but that will most likely be a big bullet point for a future Issue when that work is undertaken.
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Understood. But, judging from the feedback here, and the excitement I've witnessed by my SG mates, the more this gets implemented, the better. This is a major, potentially game-altering feature if used correctly. This is exactly the kind of thing that can add huge amounts of re-playability to existing content. It warrants its own feature article/announcement in my opinion.
I think most of us understand that overhauling large amounts of the existing content is not a minor undertaking and is perhaps best handled in bits and pieces over time. But, I assure you, it would be time well spent.
As a suggestion, you might even want to set up a poll (it's been a while since you've done this, and it seems to generate player excitement) to see which story arcs or TFs people would most like to see get some retro-RP-branching-overhaul-love. Personally, this seems like a great time/reason to overhaul the Positron TF to me. Of course, to be be fair and address an existing imbalance, the red-side should get an all-new SF that incorporates the branching tech. Thus, both sides win... isn't that nice?!? 
EDIT for lots of text and FIRST AFTER JULIE THE CRUISE DIRECTOR!!! 
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"...its use in Issue 12 content is not likely to be heavy, nor, as I understand it, will Issue 12 involve heavy revamp of existing content making use of the new tech."
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Considering the potential magnitude of improvement to the contact system that this represents, it would be unrealistic to expect a refit of existing content in the first go. Get to it when you folks can, just remember that we're drooling ourselves dehydrated out here.
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Although I think branching dialogue trees are a good idea, I also think people need to think how they'll really work. A lot of games that use such mechanisms include them to actually disguise the lack of choice you really have - you end up on Mission X regardless of what you say. Also, I can already see complaints that "My character would never say THAT!" or "All these options suck!".
It'll be interesting to see the final implementation, but I encourage everyone to take a step back and not hold their breath.
I seriously hope they use this to go back over the RWZ to give villains 'villain specific' chat on some things. It'd go over really well there I think, and would just require one use of the branch for the most part.
Too bad they didn't have this before. Ghost Widow's patron arc would've been awesome with a branch in it. "I won't kill Ghost Widow" "Well then, we'll kill you first!" then if you and Ghost Widow "win" they kill and bind you to Arachnos that way.
Ahh well. Looking forward to seeing how this makes I13 and I14 better, since it seems it will be minimal in 12. Still, good show Devs :-D
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As I believe the article alludes, the tech for this is only now coming to fruition, so it use in Issue 12 content is not likely to be heavy, nor, as I understand it, will Issue 12 involve heavy revamp of existing content making use of the new tech. So, from an Issue 12 perspective, it's a minor addition. It is pretty big for what we can do going forward, but that will most likely be a big bullet point for a future Issue when that work is undertaken.
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Oh sure. I get it. You're saying that there will be a few missions and/or story arcs in i12 that use this technology. But where it will really get the most use in in the upcoming Moon Zone, yes? Right? You know... the MOON ZONE!!!
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As for reworking older content, I could really see this for some of the CoV missions and arcs. I have found some of them to be way, way too evil for a particular character concept. Others, not evil enough. Then there's that whole "You're just a stooge of Arachnos whether you like it or NOT"aspect of CoV that really, really turns me off to red side.
What I'd really like to see is side-switching. I'd really love bringing Zube to the Rogue Islands to run through the content there. But if he ever went bad, I'd really, in my mind, only be pretending that he's evil. Actually, he'd be just a mole. With this technology, he really could be a mole! He'd get to say, "Oops, I let the radio station broadcast the truth about Dr. Aeon. My bad! (heh heh heh)" Or rescue the Freak school teacher rather than turn her over for torture. etc.
Similarly, a villain who "switched sides" to blue could really be just planning (and secretly causing) more mayhem, death, and destruction.
Probably not gonna happen... but it's a nice dream... 
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
In the spirit of current contact disclosures I'd like to make a couple requests about the dialogue trees.
First, make it clear what each choice will lead to.
Second, add some sort of confirmation to the dialog so you can never pick a choice from a single errant click.
Third and optionally, explicitly indicate intention in the dialogue, maybe with a tag in brackets at the beginning, so people don't do the wrong thing for them due to misinterpretation.
Up with the overworld! Up with exploration! | Want a review of your arc?
My arcs: Dream Paper (ID: 1874) | Bricked Electronics (ID: 2180) | The Bravuran Jobs (ID: 5073) | Backwards Day (ID: 329000) | Operation Fair Trade (ID: 391172)
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Third and optionally, explicitly indicate intention in the dialogue, maybe with a tag in brackets at the beginning, so people don't do the wrong thing for them due to misinterpretation.
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I loved this in Planescape: Torment. You'd get dialogue choices like, "Tell me what you know or I'll kill you" (Truth) and "Tell me what you know or I'll kill you" (Lie) as well as a few others - but basically, where there was room for doubt about the consequences, the game would spell them out for you at the dialogue options.
#2409 - The Mystery of the MAGI vaults. Azuria has contacted you to help her stop the thefts from the MAGI vaults.
#68054 - Out of the gutters. Left for dead, you swore that you were through with being a victim (alt villain beginning story)
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Even MOO3 had alot of good points. I think it is more that it got redesigned one to many times and so carried far to much extra baggage. I have MOO3 and still play it occasionally but I'll admit to playing MOO2 more. Still it wasn't all bad and I don't think I would blame the dev team for it failing. They made it into a moderatly functional game from what I suspect was a disaster.
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I guess I have to deamplify my statement. A brief scan of existing reviews on the internet shows that MOO3 wasn't nearly as critically or universally panned as I thought. I'll just paraphrase Dorothy Parker to express my own, personal review: Master of Orion 3 is a not a game to be put down lightly--it should be thrown with great force. Or how about: Master of Orion 3 cannot be properly judged from playing it just once--and I certainly don't intend to play it again.
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As I believe the article alludes, the tech for this is only now coming to fruition, so it use in Issue 12 content is not likely to be heavy, nor, as I understand it, will Issue 12 involve heavy revamp of existing content making use of the new tech. So, from an Issue 12 perspective, it's a minor addition. It is pretty big for what we can do going forward, but that will most likely be a big bullet point for a future Issue when that work is undertaken.
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I can understand the desire to start slowly and avoid building up unmeetable expectations: branching dialog choices do have a long history of lookin better than the really are.
Still, I really hope the potential of this feature is recognized by the devs. The inability to respon in any way to the storylines in CoV is, I think, one of the big flaws in that game. And it would certainly be nice if a shared storyline could behave slightly differently for heroes than for villains.
I'm not trying to ask for the world. It would certainly be great if future arcs (or retrofitted old ones, should NCNC find lots of time on its hands) had broadly branching paths that became totally different stores as the choices unfolded. But even a simple choice that led to two mostly similar endings can go a long way towards mitigating the feeling that our character is simply punching a clock, rather that going through an adventure.
So, in short, I don't mind you devs taking it slowly, but don't you dare let this new bit of technology sit idle! I'm watching you!
-D
Darkonne: Pinnacle's (unofficially) mighty Dark Miasma/Radiation Blast enthusiast!
Be sure to check out this mighty Arc:
#161865 - Aeon's Nemesis
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This allows them to put options into conversations or theoretically do things like present players with situations like which wire to cut when diffusing a bomb. It sounds simple, but it makes their options as mission designers much greater.
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SuperGuy1337: Ok team, which wire? Red or Blue?
TooManyFifties: Red
UberTank: Red
ScrapperLocker: Red
UndeadBlaster: Red
MarginalHealer: Red
ContainmentJockey: Red
UltimateNoob: Blue
SuperGuy1337 clicks Red.
There is a flash, much like the one if you fail to escape the Striga TF volcano.
In the next moment, everyone is outside the mission, dead. The words "Mission Failed" appear onscreen in red, followed by "Task Force Failed". The 2 hour Orenbega mission bonus is a massive...400 points. Since everyone is now outside, the debt is doubled. The much-desired Temp power for this mission is not awarded. The TF badge is not awarded.
TooManyFifties: SG calling
UberTank: SG calling
ScrapperLocker: SG calling
UndeadBlaster: SG calling
MarginalHealer: SG calling
ContainmentJockey: SG calling
UltimateNoob: Um...
SuperGuy1337: We must never speak of this again.
Ideally, the tank will die precisely as everyone else starts fighting, allowing aggro to be spread evenly among the blaster. -seebs, "How to Suck at CoH/CoV" Guide
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This allows them to put options into conversations or theoretically do things like present players with situations like which wire to cut when diffusing a bomb. It sounds simple, but it makes their options as mission designers much greater.
[/ QUOTE ]
SuperGuy1337: Ok team, which wire? Red or Blue?
TooManyFifties: Red
UberTank: Red
ScrapperLocker: Red
UndeadBlaster: Red
MarginalHealer: Red
ContainmentJockey: Red
UltimateNoob: Blue
SuperGuy1337 clicks Red.
There is a flash, much like the one if you fail to escape the Striga TF volcano.
In the next moment, everyone is outside the mission, dead. The words "Mission Failed" appear onscreen in red, followed by "Task Force Failed". The 2 hour Orenbega mission bonus is a massive...400 points. Since everyone is now outside, the debt is doubled. The much-desired Temp power for this mission is not awarded. The TF badge is not awarded.
TooManyFifties: SG calling
UberTank: SG calling
ScrapperLocker: SG calling
UndeadBlaster: SG calling
MarginalHealer: SG calling
ContainmentJockey: SG calling
UltimateNoob: Um...
SuperGuy1337: We must never speak of this again.
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Oddly enough, this sounds like fun and gives a real motivation to complete a TF.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
Meh.. branching missions or plots are only as good as the person Writing them, and most players will just pick the route that Vidiotsmaps or Tomax TELLS them to in order to get the most easily Farmed/Stealthed mission depending on what they're looking for.
Entirely new mission types would be a better use of time. IE: better "Protection" types, Onslaughts, more NPC-assisted EpicBattles(sort of like Silos'), Customized or Arch-Nemesis, actual PvP-doorMissions, y'know something, ANYTHING that saves us from the current humdrum of A)BossKill/Glowy, B)DefeatAll/Hostage
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While I like the idea of branching dialog, I think a natural dialog program (like Eliza) would be even cooler. It would be very RP immersive. You could actually interact with NPCs and trigger missions by asking the right questions or making the right statements.
Most of the load could be handled by the game client, with server hits only required to get the "secret" bits of dialog that you don't want players digging out of the PIGGs. Players would spend hours conversing with NPCs with minimal server load and think it was the coolest thing since the invention of oxygen.
If you wanted to get really clever, you could have the NPC relationship index get tweaked by how the PC interacts. Curse our your contacts, get the cold shoulder. Sweet-talk them, get preferred rates at the contact store.
Did someone say moon zone?
also BLUE WIRE! CUT THE BLUE WIRE!!!
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
[url=http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114726][color=black][b][size=5]Moon [color=red]Hazard [color=black]Zone![/size][/color][/color][/color][/b][/url]
Yeah Moon zone, Yeah
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also BLUE WIRE! CUT THE BLUE WIRE!!!
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THERE IS NO BLUE WIRE! 
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also BLUE WIRE! CUT THE BLUE WIRE!!!
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THERE IS NO BLUE WIRE!
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Oh crap. 
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
[url=http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114726][color=black][b][size=5]Moon [color=red]Hazard [color=black]Zone![/size][/color][/color][/color][/b][/url]
I can think of two examples, right off the top of my head, that just beg for some sort of branching.
Dark Watcher in the RWZ, first mission, rescue the Nemesis defector. If he dies, you continue on the same path.
Tina McIntyre in Peregrine Island. You have a timed mission with a freaking 10 minute time limit. If you succeed...nothing. "Well, great, you succeeded, but they were also attacking some other facility and they got everything they needed. There should be a reward of some sort for succeeding. "Great work! They'll try again, but we've gotten some time, so here's what we'll do with it."
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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also BLUE WIRE! CUT THE BLUE WIRE!!!
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THERE IS NO BLUE WIRE!
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Oh crap.
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LIES!!!
There are only blue wires... because the devs hate red.
...I just want to say, please consider doing this RPG Choice Branching in Scirocco's arc. I literally cried when the arc had forced me on Daos' side rather than my beloved Scirocco's... I would rather have helped him, and be stopped by Recluse himself or something (like one of those good ol' classic RPG "Guaranteed defeat" fights...just no debt 
).
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also BLUE WIRE! CUT THE BLUE WIRE!!!
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THERE IS NO BLUE WIRE!
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Oh crap.
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LIES!!!
There are only blue wires... because the devs hate red.
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Sigh...so even with this villain-heavy issue....
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also BLUE WIRE! CUT THE BLUE WIRE!!!
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THERE IS NO BLUE WIRE!
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Oh crap.
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LIES!!!
There are only blue wires... because the devs hate red.
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Sigh...so even with this villain-heavy issue....
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lol So true, so true.
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
[url=http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114726][color=black][b][size=5]Moon [color=red]Hazard [color=black]Zone![/size][/color][/color][/color][/b][/url]
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also BLUE WIRE! CUT THE BLUE WIRE!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
THERE IS NO BLUE WIRE!
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Oh crap.
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LIES!!!
There are only blue wires... because the devs hate red.
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Sigh...so even with this villain-heavy issue....
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lol So true, so true.
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I say, ah say, that's a joke son.
Boy's about as sharp as a bag of wet mice...
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also BLUE WIRE! CUT THE BLUE WIRE!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
THERE IS NO BLUE WIRE!
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh crap.
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LIES!!!
There are only blue wires... because the devs hate red.
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Sigh...so even with this villain-heavy issue....
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lol So true, so true.
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I say, ah say, that's a joke son.
Boy's about as sharp as a bag of wet mice...
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I usually use "sphere" myself ... but "a bag of wet mice" is pretty catchy.
NCIS: Best gorram show in the 'verse.
-------------------------
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He's also excited about the addition of traditional RPG branching tree dialogue, something they didn't have in City of Heroes until this Issue and will now begin to use quite a bit.
"In this issue it's just the test bed for it, we got the tech late into the development process so we were not able to use it everywhere we wanted to," said Miller.
This allows them to put options into conversations or theoretically do things like present players with situations like which wire to cut when diffusing a bomb. It sounds simple, but it makes their options as mission designers much greater.
Miller could not - however - comment on whether they plan to go back over old content and backwards integrate this technology.
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ZOMG YAY
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What she said!
How exactly did this tidbit get buried in the back of a third-party interview? This is a serious potential paradigm shift.
-D
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As I believe the article alludes, the tech for this is only now coming to fruition, so it use in Issue 12 content is not likely to be heavy, nor, as I understand it, will Issue 12 involve heavy revamp of existing content making use of the new tech. So, from an Issue 12 perspective, it's a minor addition. It is pretty big for what we can do going forward, but that will most likely be a big bullet point for a future Issue when that work is undertaken.
Lighthouse
Community Relations Manager
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