Champions http://www.champions-online.com/game_features I have 2 360's 4 good PC's and way to much time on my hands, anyone seen the beta line?
I think the problem is fixing the side effect of the power so that they have the color the player selected. If your going to do that, you'll need to change the whole FX animation system to be able to lookup the RGB value from the source of the effect. So you'd pretty much have to do the full work of getting customizable colors: the invisible weapon hack wouldn't save you any time at all.
As Starsman pointed out, in addition to setting the color value on the character, you'd also need to copy the color it into the "buffs" (for lack of a better term) as well. Since these become the source of new FX (like the a bubble or the fire from a fireball) they have to have the custom RGB values as well. I'm assuming of course that the FX system has a pointer to the originator of the FX (the player, the critter or the buff). If it doesn't then they'll need to add code to push that down into the FX system. Additionally, there's the particles (the puffs of fire, the bits of electricity that shoot out, etc) that will also need to inherit their color from the player.
As Arcanaville pointed out, the the issue seems to be mostly a resource issue rather than a "can it be done" issue. Just the ability to change your toon's power colors seems like a small change assuming they have a developer that's very familiar with the FX system. It's always possible that current developers NCNC has are not well versed in this part of the code. So potentially, this isn't an "easy" code change.
Additionally, beside the code change, there's a huge amount of QA to be done. Besides bugs, they'll have to make sure that all the color combinations actually work well. I imagine that would take a fair bit of time deal with all those problems plus any special code that would need to be added to make funky combinations work. And to say nothing of the one-off cases that might be lurking in the FX code. Potentially a pretty big undertaking all in all.
In hindsight, it seems like the time to have implemented power customization would have been for the CoV launch. They did a big upgrade to the engine, so it would have made sense to do it then. It might have placated the people who hated ED. Oh well, water under the bridge now.
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All this hinges on whether you have a CMS currently wired through the application at all.
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And that's the catch - they don't have any of the pipelines in place that this would need.
Take Propel for example - it summons a random object each time you use it, but the object can differ from client to client from one person's use because the object is chosen client side, as they didn't want to use up more bandwidth making all the clients spawn the same object, while not making it use the same object over and over.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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Weapon customization did open up some avenues of exploration and got us thinking more outside the box, but ultimately we found that specific pathway to be a dead end.
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If what i read here is correct, then every time its said that "we are nowhere closer to power cusomization than we were 3 years ago" is not true. In theory, you are closer, still not able to go far, but you can "just" (by just i mean not as bad as a full blown system) go ahead and make those code monkeys do some tools the continuing FX in the target know who actually generating that FX and inherit properties from there.
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How in the world are you reading "we found that specific pathway to be a dead end" to mean that Weapon Customization has brought them closer?
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To quote Edison :
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"After we had conducted thousands of experiments on a certain project
without solving the problem, one of my associates, after we had
conducted the crowning experiment and it had proved a failure,
expressed discouragement and disgust over our having failed to find
out anything. I cheerily assured him that we had learned something.
For we had learned for a certainty that the thing couldn't be done
that way, and that we would have to try some other way."
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Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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Weapon customization did open up some avenues of exploration and got us thinking more outside the box, but ultimately we found that specific pathway to be a dead end.
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If what i read here is correct, then every time its said that "we are nowhere closer to power cusomization than we were 3 years ago" is not true. In theory, you are closer, still not able to go far, but you can "just" (by just i mean not as bad as a full blown system) go ahead and make those code monkeys do some tools the continuing FX in the target know who actually generating that FX and inherit properties from there.
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How in the world are you reading "we found that specific pathway to be a dead end" to mean that Weapon Customization has brought them closer?
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To quote Edison :
[ QUOTE ]
"After we had conducted thousands of experiments on a certain project
without solving the problem, one of my associates, after we had
conducted the crowning experiment and it had proved a failure,
expressed discouragement and disgust over our having failed to find
out anything. I cheerily assured him that we had learned something.
For we had learned for a certainty that the thing couldn't be done
that way, and that we would have to try some other way."
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Sure, I could see that eliminating possible avenues of exploration might be seen as getting "closer." 
Good quote there.
Bottom line is, BaB *knows* they can implement power customization. But unless a much, much easier way of doing so than they currently could presents itself to them, they're not going to be doing it. People who think that they're actively working towards P.C. given the only current real method (i.e., a rewrite of the entire powers system) are just fooling themselves.
Some might say, well, they can work on it in bits and pieces over time while working on other things, and I guess they could. But what Lighthouse says here about the CoP and IoPs could apply to P.C. too:
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I'm sure that others who actually code can elaborate, but generally trying to work on something piece meal (aka gradually) is not the best way to go about implementing a new system, especially one that touches a number of other sub systems (and has the real potential to break them, etc.)
It's not that we haven't wanted to, it's again that there are features with broader appeal that we have pursued. Hopefully you can understand that (and if not, you can remain constructive in your feedback).
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I'm sure they'd love to give us P.C. and if they could do so without a complete rewrite of the powers system I have no doubt they would. But if anyone can read BaB's OP here and think that they're actively working on anything P.C.-related *other than searching for a miracle that will allow them to do it in a way that won't take away from a year or more's other content* then I think they're just grasping at straws.
And? Honestly I don't care how long or what it takes, if it's a feature I want over others, it's about doing it vs. not doing it that matters. If they're saying that they're not going to try, I'll just be waiting for a game that will.
Well, I been reading the forums on this topic for a while and it's a cool idea. I think it got hatched from the new Champions Online coming out next year. One of the items Champions will have is Power Customization that I thought would be great for City of Heroes/Villains . Both Champions and City of Heroes/Villains are we similar to each other other them the more comic book look to Champions. For the membership to stay I think Power Customization should be incorporated in City of Heroes/Villains to keep up with new game developments coming to other online games. Champions Online
Supergroup Leader to:
Minion of the Underworld - CoH / Victory
Minions of the Underworld - CoV / Victory
Skittles of Paragon - CoH / Infinity
http://freewebs.com/motusgdd/
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Well, I been reading the forums on this topic for a while and it's a cool idea. I think it got hatched from the new Champions Online coming out next year.
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CoH players have been wanting and asking for Power Customization since CoH was in beta, long before Champions Online was even dreamed up. In fact, it's likely that the main reason CO will have P.C. is because it's one of the "lessons learned" by Jack Emmert that should have been implemented in CoH from the beginning.
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For the membership to stay I think Power Customization should be incorporated in City of Heroes/Villains to keep up with new game developments coming to other online games. Champions Online
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And I think that Power Customization, while it would be very nice, is too shallow a thing to make a huge difference in retaining the playerbase. Should our Devs implement it if it wouldn't take too much time away from actual content? Sure thing. But if the only way to implement it is to rewrite the entire powers system (and right now, that's the only way to do it -- barring some miracle presenting itself), it would mean a year or more of no other new content. *That* would lead to a larger playerbase loss than simply not having Power Customization. With no new content, many players *would* leave by the time P.C. could be implemented here. Then, by the time we have P.C., Champions Online would be out (or nearly out) and at that point many of the players who had already cut ties to this game would have even more incentive to try out CO instead of renewing their subscription to CoX.
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I'm sure they'd love to give us P.C. and if they could do so without a complete rewrite of the powers system I have no doubt they would. But if anyone can read BaB's OP here and think that they're actively working on anything P.C.-related *other than searching for a miracle that will allow them to do it in a way that won't take away from a year or more's other content* then I think they're just grasping at straws.
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They have that year to make it so. I'd suggest hiring a crack team of programmers ad hoc. Give them a copy of the source code and all necessary adjuncts. Keep them advised of changes and additions and so on and with a mandate to have this rewrite accomplished in six months (or whatever deadline seems feasible). Then, put it on test for massive beta testing by us.
Of course, that solution seems so obvious, there's no doubt it's already been considered and probably rejected for reasons I can't possibly know. Or, simply dismissed out of hand for other reasons.
The current state of the game: rigid powers systems, hard-locked archetypes with no viable way to customize characters just isn't going to be competitive any more. If anyone believes simply adding yet more of the same is going to compete with a game that has full power customization and nearly open-ended characters out of the gate, then I think they've succumbed to wishful thinking.
It seems to me that NCSoft has a few very obvious choices to make, at this point: 1: do nothing and hope that Cryptic fails to deliver, 2: contract a rewrite of the powers system immediately, or 3: start work on CoH2 with the goal of launching it for beta by next year.
Cal2
Cal2
They can't work on Power Customization in isolation, though. It's not like they can just have a group of dedicated programmers doing nothing but rewriting the powers system while another group works on whatever other new stuff they're planning for the next year or two. If they dedicate work on P.C., that's pretty much going to be the only thing they'll be working on for that timeframe.
Sacrificing new content for the next year or more would lose more players than choosing not to do Power Customization. If people leave CoH for CO, P.C. is only going to be one small part of why; CoH will be a five-year-old game (or older) by the time CO comes out, and it's being made by people who've had firsthand experience with all the mistakes that have been made here. If there aren't tons of areas in which CO is better or more developed than CoH then Cryptic would have to be staffed with nothing but complete and utter morons. I don't understand this focus on P.C. as if that would be the only thing to keep CoH players from going to CO.
NCSoft *does* have to step up their game to be able to compete with CO. But if they spend all their time focusing on this one area, they're bound to let all the other areas in which CO will (potentially) be better slide.
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They can't work on Power Customization in isolation, though. It's not like they can just have a group of dedicated programmers doing nothing but rewriting the powers system while another group works on whatever other new stuff they're planning for the next year or two. If they dedicate work on P.C., that's pretty much going to be the only thing they'll be working on for that timeframe.
Sacrificing new content for the next year or more would lose more players than choosing not to do Power Customization. If people leave CoH for CO, P.C. is only going to be one small part of why; CoH will be a five-year-old game (or older) by the time CO comes out, and it's being made by people who've had firsthand experience with all the mistakes that have been made here. If there aren't tons of areas in which CO is better or more developed than CoH then Cryptic would have to be staffed with nothing but complete and utter morons. I don't understand this focus on P.C. as if that would be the only thing to keep CoH players from going to CO.
NCSoft *does* have to step up their game to be able to compete with CO. But if they spend all their time focusing on this one area, they're bound to let all the other areas in which CO will (potentially) be better slide.
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And why can't they have a contract company working on this issue? I know for a fact that such companies exist and have programmers more than capable of dealing with this issue. One of my MUSH associates (heck, more than one) works for companies like this out of Chicago. So I know for a fact this is an option. And, for the record, they are more than competent enough to realize that the source code would need regular updating to make any such rewrite viable.
The only reason I can come up with for a NO on this solution is money. But didn't NCsoft tell the whole world they were putting more money and resources into CoH?
Yeah, there are other reasons I'm going to be heading over to CO which CoH cannot hope to match. But the primary reasons are PC and open-ended character types. PC is number one, however. It's my bottom line.
Cal2
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And why can't they have a contract company working on this issue?
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If it can be done in the way you describe, it would be nice to hear an official comment about the possibility and whether it's something they would even consider. I'd like to see P.C., don't get me wrong. I just don't think it's the savior of the game that some people are trying to make it out to be, and I really think that BaB's post here was meant to say "it's not going to happen" without coming out and saying those words.
Champions Online *is* going to do it. Full power customization better happen really quick for this game's sake. You have competition now.
There are so many things that go into making COX great. And just because they lack on one small part of the hole doesn't mean everyone is going to jump ship right away, just because in CO I can make my fire power green or whatever.
The content will have to be amazing as well. The stories and gameplay will have to be inovative.
I think the people who are saying they will jump ship before even seeing the game are the same people that are so easily distracted by shiny objects.
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Champions Online *is* going to do it. Full power customization better happen really quick for this game's sake. You have competition now.
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No, they have competition in a year.
IF they implement P.C.. A lot of the crap that gets promised never makes it in.
For all we know it could get canceled.
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Champions Online *is* going to do it. Full power customization better happen really quick for this game's sake. You have competition now.
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No, we don't. We have a website with pretty screenshots and text.
@Demobot
Also on Steam
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Champions Online *is* going to do it. Full power customization better happen really quick for this game's sake. You have competition now.
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Champions Online could end up postphoned or vaporware. I've seen enough games with great potential cancelled that I'm not going to get excited until I see pre-sale box and probably not even then.
And while color changes are a huge enough step in the right direction where I'll gladly give CO a try, I want to see the superhero MMO that gives me some animation selection and firing points for blasts. I want to decide if my fire beam comes out of my character's eyes, hands, mouth, or ray gun. When a MMO delivers that, I'm there.
Attache
Attache @ deviantART
Attache's Anti-401k Art Collection
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I'm sure they'd love to give us P.C. and if they could do so without a complete rewrite of the powers system I have no doubt they would. But if anyone can read BaB's OP here and think that they're actively working on anything P.C.-related *other than searching for a miracle that will allow them to do it in a way that won't take away from a year or more's other content* then I think they're just grasping at straws.
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They have that year to make it so. I'd suggest hiring a crack team of programmers ad hoc. Give them a copy of the source code and all necessary adjuncts. Keep them advised of changes and additions and so on and with a mandate to have this rewrite accomplished in six months (or whatever deadline seems feasible). Then, put it on test for massive beta testing by us.
Of course, that solution seems so obvious, there's no doubt it's already been considered and probably rejected for reasons I can't possibly know. Or, simply dismissed out of hand for other reasons.
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It _is_ obvious why this hasn't been done - once you think honestly about it. (Assuming you have the background to think about it, as opposed to speculating and handwaving.)
1- This will be very, very expensive.
2- It will take probably six months to a year for new programmers to get deep enough into the current code to be able to work on such a significant piece of the game with only minimal supervision from the current Dev team.
3- Supervising the training will take significant effort.
4- Even minimal supervision means considerable time and effort.
5 - This will be very expensive and not just in dollars and cents.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
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And why can't they have a contract company working on this issue?
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Based on BAB's explanation of the problems, I'd say they could, but it would be expensive, risky, and would very probably slow down other development.
The expense and the risk would probably be something of a balancing act: if they just set a team of contractors on the problem for a few months, they could come out with anything from smashing success to abject failure to produce anything usable. The risk can be mitigated somewhat by spending money to keep close track of the project, which costs contractor time (status meetings, etc) and main developer time (keeping an eye on how well it integrates with the current code).
Also, as the project goes on, either all work that targets the current power FX system has to be put on hold until the new code goes into production, or that work has to be done in such a way as to work with both the old and new way (which may not even be possible). And, I think there is a lot of risk of winding up with code that turns out to be difficult to maintain, which doesn't do anyone any favors down the line.
I think from reading the original post, the plan looks like it might be to continue to work on figuring out the best way to do it, and it may well be planned that over the long term, if a good way to do it can be settled on, an issue or two of strictly non-powerset-related content comes out while they revamp the power code to handle this, and some later issue brings us the green flame.
Virtue
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Silent Scream - Shadow Witch II - Liquid Serenade - Nebulous Dawn - Ghost Witch II -Xiberia
Angel Witch II - Chord of Souls - Storm Witch II - Princess of the Dawn - Standing Horse - Witch of Xymox
Silent Scream - Shadow Witch II - Liquid Serenade - Nebulous Dawn - Ghost Witch II -Xiberia
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I think from reading the original post, the plan looks like it might be to continue to work on figuring out the best way to do it, and it may well be planned that over the long term, if a good way to do it can be settled on, an issue or two of strictly non-powerset-related content comes out while they revamp the power code to handle this, and some later issue brings us the green flame.
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This also relates to how Shields is being introduced a couple issues after Dual Blades and Willpower were. DB and Shields won the polls, but as it was forewarned, it took longer to develop Shields. Instead of just introducing Dual Blades by itself, and then brought in Shields at a later time, they brought in the second place winner for defensive sets.
Power Proliferation, which was in the works for more than a year and a half, is in a way a 'filler' for additional powers. Mind you, it wasn't a copy and paste job, so while that didn't take as much time as making powers from the ground up.
As I had posted before, it would be great if work on allowing new power sets (let alone those that are being prolifereated) be costumizable to be 'turned on' when the older powers are reworked to be costumizable.
But that's the Devs call.
When they aren't sure how they want to bring in PC just yet it can be hard to prep new powers for it.
[ QUOTE ][*]Being able to change the appearance of henchmen or pets
[/ QUOTE ]Any reason why the quoted example isn't doable? I am sure there are many players who would love the ability to customize Henchmen
I just want to thank you bigtime, Brawler, for the explanation. I'm web developer-lite myself, and so I was always interested in hearing some sort of technical explanation why. You guys throw in enough great stuff all the time to keep this game great. I'll still hope you all find a clever way to get it in without burying yourselves.
I would also love to hear a similarly detailed explanation about why we cant customize henchmen, when you get the time. If nothing else, it would be nice to have male/female versions (robots being a possible exception, since there's nothing inherently "male" about the existing bots).
Could you please also maybe throw in why we cant emote our veteran reward pets?
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Gorgar
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LION SIGHTING!
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
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Honestly, I'd say don't waste your time on power customization, just keep giving us the awesome stuff you always have been instead of breaking your brain over how to make it work, or stressing over people asking for it all the time.
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While I'm not convinced that the coming competition will be all that and a bag of chips, the fact that it is (likely) coming makes unbaking those powers a priority. There are enough players who want power customization that could cause severe financial problems for this game should they decide to spend their MMO dollar somewhere else. That is a fact that will need to be addressed, sooner rather than later.
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Cause once you figure out how to make every power's color tintable so you can have green energy blasts but black energy fists, it will be accepted just like weapon customization was, but then "those" people will show up. What about the people who want to shoot fireballs out of their eyes? Or the guy who wants to have fly look like he's skating around on ice? Or the girl who wants a swordfish katana that uses fencing animations?
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While there will certainly always be completely ridiculous individualized requests (I remember a few people bemoaning the fact they couldn't recreate their family's personal tartan when kilts were introduced), having a choice of animations, firing points, flying styles should be the ultimate goal of this genre of MMO. In another couple short years, it will be the customer expectation.
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