Discussion: Changes to Task/Strike Force Missions

[ QUOTE ]
I actually Keep one of my toons parked in the ice mistral TF now. Its good money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm and good drops too I bet.
Which mission? the last one? I should try that out on my dom.

---

Oh yes, I can see the light now! I can see how people were just breezing through TFs that are designed to be harder. I can see how making it so there is always a minimum spawn amount which can be eight hurts the farmers...oh wait...I can't. So in the end is this change so farmers can't farm? Or so people that have time constraints or real life issues won't be able to do a TF/SF again due to fear of blacklisting when something comes up and they leave?

---

[ QUOTE ]
This game CAN tell the difference between someone thats logged off and someone thats QUIT the tf.

Therefore a better solution to softloading is to set spawn size to team size including logged off.

If someone quits the TF spawn sizes should adjust because they are not coming back.

[/ QUOTE ]
Possibly a good compromise. But only if the ability to kick logged out players is also added.

---

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This game CAN tell the difference between someone thats logged off and someone thats QUIT the tf.

Therefore a better solution to softloading is to set spawn size to team size including logged off.

If someone quits the TF spawn sizes should adjust because they are not coming back.

[/ QUOTE ]
Possibly a good compromise. But only if the ability to kick logged out players is also added.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, posi said he wants you to complete the TF as a team, or not at all. Read his justification for this change, he's clear about that much.

---

[ QUOTE ]
Nope, posi said he wants you to complete the TF as a team, or not at all. Read his justification for this change, he's clear about that much.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was just about to post to disagree with you. After all, softloading and not forced teaming is the apparent target of the change.

But then I started thinking: Why only Task Force softloading? Why only a spawn size floor, and not a spawn size ceiling? Surely the developers know softloading is used abusively (i.e. exploited) primarily in non-Task Force missions, and is used to add to spawns, rather than subtracting?

Because softloading is exploited primarily in non-TF missions, and is used to pad rather than to reduce the spawn sizes, I can't say with confidence that softloading is at the heart of this change.

That, unfortunately, leaves forced teaming.

Well, at least they didn't make it so the TF fails and autokicks everyone if too many people quit. Dr. Q failing if any single player hit the Quit button would be pretty heavy.

---

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This game CAN tell the difference between someone thats logged off and someone thats QUIT the tf.

Therefore a better solution to softloading is to set spawn size to team size including logged off.

If someone quits the TF spawn sizes should adjust because they are not coming back.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't mind this.

Some how I don't think Ditzy and MonkeyB would like it.



~MR

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope I wouldn't. Nice of you to think of me though. The only thing that would make me happy is if they went back to all the nice things they promised us - like giving the customer what they want. Its clear from this thread that a vocal majority of them - for different and legitimate reasons - want the change rolled back.

So give me what I want.

---

Thanks, NC Soft, for closing my favorite game ever without warning and with plenty of life still left in it, and thus relieving me of the burden of EVER wanting to buy, try or even hear about another game from your company. Will my decision make a dent, or persuade them in anyway, shape or form? Nope, obviously not. Don't care. NC Soft is dead to me. ~ PsyFox

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This game CAN tell the difference between someone thats logged off and someone thats QUIT the tf.

Therefore a better solution to softloading is to set spawn size to team size including logged off.

If someone quits the TF spawn sizes should adjust because they are not coming back.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't mind this.

Some how I don't think Ditzy and MonkeyB would like it.



~MR

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope I wouldn't. Nice of you to think of me though. The only thing that would make me happy is if they went back to all the nice things they promised us - like giving the customer what they want. Its clear from this thread that a vocal majority of them - for different and legitimate reasons - want the change rolled back.

So give me what I want.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Let players play Task Forces how they wish without being forced to team, which can be especially problematic on low population servers at low population times. There was nothing inherently wrong with all Task Forces, though a lot of "play my way, aka the right way!" gamers have turned it into a crusade against soloists.

The problems as I and many others see it were Cap SFs and soft-spawning the STF/RSF. Do as was done with Katie TFs and examine them individually, don't enact sweeping changes. I'd be surprised if there's anyone who opposes this change who wouldn't agree with what I just said. We've all acknowledged that Katie TFs were easily farmable and disrupting gameplay as usual, so deal with any problematic TFs on a case by case basis.

---

[ QUOTE ]
Teaming is important. Pvp is balanced for teams. The devs should set it so you cannot enter a pvp zone unless you are on a team of at least 4 and you are debuffed until it is a team of 8. If at any time your team drops below 4, you should be kicked from the zone. Thusly, teaming is enforced and pvp is balanced. Ending the exploit of unbalancing pvp by solo'ing.

[/ QUOTE ]

That cracked me up. Thanks!

---

LOL

They will never institute that type of zone or instance PvP here

---

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This game CAN tell the difference between someone thats logged off and someone thats QUIT the tf.

Therefore a better solution to softloading is to set spawn size to team size including logged off.

If someone quits the TF spawn sizes should adjust because they are not coming back.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't mind this.

Some how I don't think Ditzy and MonkeyB would like it.



~MR

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope I wouldn't. Nice of you to think of me though. The only thing that would make me happy is if they went back to all the nice things they promised us - like giving the customer what they want. Its clear from this thread that a vocal majority of them - for different and legitimate reasons - want the change rolled back.

So give me what I want.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Let players play Task Forces how they wish without being forced to team, which can be especially problematic on low population servers at low population times. There was nothing inherently wrong with all Task Forces, though a lot of "play my way, aka the right way!" gamers have turned it into a crusade against soloists.

The problems as I and many others see it were Cap SFs and soft-spawning the STF/RSF. Do as was done with Katie TFs and examine them individually, don't enact sweeping changes. I'd be surprised if there's anyone who opposes this change who wouldn't agree with what I just said. We've all acknowledged that Katie TFs were easily farmable and disrupting gameplay as usual, so deal with any problematic TFs on a case by case basis.

[/ QUOTE ]

We shouldn't have to find workarounds as a result of dev negligence. I am lookin at you Mr. Tech in the rsf.I don't object to a spawn for minimum team size AT all. The fact of the matter is because of poor game design and negligent implementation all the players are now at this point. THE POINT WHERE THE WORKAROUNDS don't work anymore and are becomming an inconve nience.

A person can look at any point made in the thread and it all goes back to a "workaround".

1. Why do people softload RSF? To avoid the buggy tech.

2. Why do hero people fill a team? Because they cant get 8 players for the 6-8 hour boredom fest for a badge.
3. Why do both heros and villians want to do quick Katies and Caps? For a chance at a good recipe from a messed up drop pool.

Lol.. there are more but I don't feel like listing them all. I am sick of doing a "workaround".

---

Take this with a Grain of Salt if you Desire, but This May very well help RMT Farmers a great deal.

Consider an Illusion Controller with Perma PA, in the first mission of the Kaite TF(an Open Map) with High Level Magical Magical Salvage Enemies, With No Mezzes and Of Phantasm Level could Farm the mission all day.

How is this a good idea.

---

Or STF missions #3 or 4, Lv50+ enemies spawned for 8, either CoT or Arachnos +ambushes.

But we shouldn't have to point out how this system could quite obviously and easily benefit the farmers they were (I guess?) trying to target with this patch. My previous post's argument points out flaws with this patch that I've yet to hear a response to, and it doesn't hinge on speculation about how X or Y could be a loophole.

Though as you pointed out, there are definitely loopholes to consider, as well.

---

But you don't Get the Influence boost from Being Exemped in the STF, Arachnos has Tech Salvage in addition to its Magic and They have Mezzes which the Cabal do not.

---

A lot of the soft-spawning and stealthing can be solved with...

...guards that can see through stealth...
...doors that need to be opened by keys, and keys being in the hands of a couple of rather large spawns...
...mobs that keep running after you once they spotted you and they bring in friends.

I mean, stealth is good and all, but it's hardly unsurmountable.

---

This change is a textbook recipe for inflation and scarcity redside.

In the CoV economy, finished IOs can be thought of as final 'real' production, salvage and recipes as intermediate goods. SOs, TOs and DOs are outside goods that set a baseline reservation value for enhancements.

Inf is the game's currency, and it differs from most real-world currencies in that it may be minted by any player, simply by defeating foes.

Inflation is kept at reasonable levels through money sinks and player retirements. I believe (but grant I may be wrong) that the black market fee is an important money sink.

By making TFs riskier to complete, this change probably lowers real production villainside, at least as far as Pool C is concerned. (I find it unlikely that it would RAISE production, but feel free to point out anything I've missed.)

There is no reason to believe that the change will affect player demand for Pool C IOs. (Though it may affect the demand for IOs NOW as opposed to LATER - see below.)

Lower supply and higher demand leads to higher prices... but how high?

Fewer Pool C IOs villainside may lead to fewer black market transactions villainside, which leads to less money being funneled into the black market tax, which leads to a growth of the inf supply.

Moreover, now that a single person can spawn a four- or eight-person mission, it is easier than ever to farm inf. This change may lead to an increase in inf production. In any case, I doubt it would lead to lower inf production (unless players running SFs were a substantial source of inf prior to the change).

Combining lower supply of Pool C IO recipes with lower inf drain and more inf creation will lead to extremely high prices.

This effect will be made worse by the dev announcements. Consider Posi's statements to the effect that they do NOT intend TFs to be casual-friendly, and that they expect them to be run over several days by a group of RL friends. (I'm typing this quickly, and may have mis-paraphrased. Corrections gratefully accepted.)

Villain players may (rightly) take this statement of dev policy as a hint to expect higher IO prices in the future, since they'll be more difficult to obtain than they have been previously.

If villain sellers expect higher prices in the future, they will either not sell their IOs today (leading to present scarcity) or sell them at a high reservation price (inflation).

If villain buyers expect higher prices in the future, they will do their best to get their IOs ASAP, driving up their prices and bringing about the feared inflation earlier.

Those people who expected inflation will point at the higher prices and think, 'A-ha! I was right!' and expect even higher prices in the future, repeating the cycle.

This change brings together restrictions on real production, increased ease of minting currency, reduced outflows of currency and policy statements leading to inflationary expectations.

The self-same combination has led to hyperinflation in real-world economies, and I see no reason why CoV will be exempt from this consequence.

---

[ QUOTE ]
LOL

They will never institute that type of zone or instance PvP here

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing you took the post literally and missed what he was really saying.

---

[ QUOTE ]
i freakin lol'd

As if people farmin' these things wouldn't just Dual-Box their way through it anyway?
Hell... 3 of the 4 guys I do it with can solo 8-man spawns @ level 20. I can solo 4-man spawns.
Until Posi fixes Pool-C itself, this is only going to get exploited harder and harder.

[/ QUOTE ]

indeed

---

[ QUOTE ]
This change is a textbook recipe for inflation and scarcity redside.

In the CoV economy, finished IOs can be thought of as final 'real' production, salvage and recipes as intermediate goods. SOs, TOs and DOs are outside goods that set a baseline reservation value for enhancements.

Inf is the game's currency, and it differs from most real-world currencies in that it may be minted by any player, simply by defeating foes.

Inflation is kept at reasonable levels through money sinks and player retirements. I believe (but grant I may be wrong) that the black market fee is an important money sink.

By making TFs riskier to complete, this change probably lowers real production villainside, at least as far as Pool C is concerned. (I find it unlikely that it would RAISE production, but feel free to point out anything I've missed.)

There is no reason to believe that the change will affect player demand for Pool C IOs. (Though it may affect the demand for IOs NOW as opposed to LATER - see below.)

Lower supply and higher demand leads to higher prices... but how high?

Fewer Pool C IOs villainside may lead to fewer black market transactions villainside, which leads to less money being funneled into the black market tax, which leads to a growth of the inf supply.

Moreover, now that a single person can spawn a four- or eight-person mission, it is easier than ever to farm inf. This change may lead to an increase in inf production. In any case, I doubt it would lead to lower inf production (unless players running SFs were a substantial source of inf prior to the change).

Combining lower supply of Pool C IO recipes with lower inf drain and more inf creation will lead to extremely high prices.

This effect will be made worse by the dev announcements. Consider Posi's statements to the effect that they do NOT intend TFs to be casual-friendly, and that they expect them to be run over several days by a group of RL friends. (I'm typing this quickly, and may have mis-paraphrased. Corrections gratefully accepted.)

Villain players may (rightly) take this statement of dev policy as a hint to expect higher IO prices in the future, since they'll be more difficult to obtain than they have been previously.

If villain sellers expect higher prices in the future, they will either not sell their IOs today (leading to present scarcity) or sell them at a high reservation price (inflation).

If villain buyers expect higher prices in the future, they will do their best to get their IOs ASAP, driving up their prices and bringing about the feared inflation earlier.

Those people who expected inflation will point at the higher prices and think, 'A-ha! I was right!' and expect even higher prices in the future, repeating the cycle.

This change brings together restrictions on real production, increased ease of minting currency, reduced outflows of currency and policy statements leading to inflationary expectations.

The self-same combination has led to hyperinflation in real-world economies, and I see no reason why CoV will be exempt from this consequence.

[/ QUOTE ]

I made this statement in the market forums and find it viable here...this market will be the beginning of the end of this version of CoH/V. In two years, the new uber management suits at NCSoft will have City of Heroes 2 or City of Ebay or whatever coming out updated with new graphics etc for the new technology out there. But the bugs in that version won't be fixed until issue 3. Meanwhile this first version of the game will be down to about 2 servers of population all vying for the last 2 Spell Inks at 23 trillion apiece. No one does TFs anymore in this dark future. And all toons have been nerfed to the point they are just squares with smiley faces. But the remaining few addicted souls all have the 48 month vet reward, which is a respec for more nerf bats and a coupon for the next costume patch available for $14.95 at Wal-Mart. Dooooooom.

---

"Oh NO! I'm so sorry baba! you and your wife will be sorely missed...s#@!, i did it again, didn't I?" - mintmiki
Animal Farm ID:71800
When Alts Collide: 134432

[ QUOTE ]
But you don't Get the Influence boost from Being Exemped in the STF, Arachnos has Tech Salvage in addition to its Magic and They have Mezzes which the Cabal do not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Arachnos mish has tech salvage, yes, but also a ton of ambushes.

Mezzes, who cares, everyone uses fire/kin/psy's now with the Force Feedback IO, Indomitable Will = mez protection. Or they use fire tanks.

---

[ QUOTE ]
So the question is gonna be..

In 2-3 months from now, will I make enough money selling my 3 LoTG's to give my Ice/Psi dom 5 Purple set?

[/ QUOTE ]
Without a doubt. The damage is already done, the redside market is going to self destruct. You will have enough inf to Purple IO out all your toons on that server by then. Salvage will probably get dirt cheap by then because of the lack of recipes around to craft.

---

Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator

Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!

[ QUOTE ]
But you don't Get the Influence boost from Being Exemped in the STF

[/ QUOTE ]
What inf boost from being exemped? Minions are worth slightly more, but lieutenants and bosses are worth less inf when you exemp than they are at your native level.

I've got another thread on inf while exemping in the Player Questions section, but I've been testing this since the smoothing patch went in and can verify that the inf awards when exemping are solely the equivalent of xp awards, which are higher than inf awards for minions but lower for lt's and bosses. If we had a multiplier applied to inf awards while exemping before the patch, it's not there now.

---

My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.

<QR>

I don't mind this change, though I don't think it's doing exactly what you intended - those players who have the builds that are capable of taking on massive spawns with little risk to themselves won't have a problem with this, and will continue to farm for salvage, influence, etc., and you've probably helped that more than hurt it. Now, that being said: task forces/strike forces are supposed to require a group effort, meaning they shouldn't be soloable by everyone and their brother. If you can't get a full 8-person team together to run a task force, then don't run it - simple as that. Besides, it seems as though many of you are making the argument that this will completely destroy the supply of recipes - what TF's/SF's do you think are run the most? Not the ones that require 8 people to start, I can tell you that much.

And, yes, I'm aware that some people prefer to solo their entire way through the game, and I don't think something that is intended to be a "group project," if you will, should be doable by those people. Oh, but you'll say, "I'm missing out on part of the game, and that's not cool." It might not be. But it's a game. Find a team that you know will be able to run the TF/SF - make plans in advance, if you have to, just to make sure it gets finished. These forums are a great place to do that. "But I might get stuck with horrible teammates and I won't be able to rely on them to cover my [censored]!" That's part of the risk inherent in something like this. Deal with it.

Yes, I solo sometimes, if I'm bored or if I can't find a team - but would I dream of soloing a task force? No way - they're not meant to be soloed. Notice the title of this game: it's not City of Hero, it's City of Heroes. It is a massively multiplayer online game. If it's the "multiplayer" aspect of the game that turns you off, then what are you still doing giving your $15 a month to NCSoft?

I'm guessing it's probably the people that [censored] about ED and the GDN that are most vocal about this change. It's been how long since those happened, and guess what? They weren't rolled back. What makes you think this is going to be any different? As I said before, you don't need to be paying money to play this game if you don't agree with what's going on in it.

---

Hello. I am a horrible teammate to do a TF/SF with, or team with.

I am a 24/7 caregiver to a wheelchair-confined man with multiple sclerosis. I often take unexpected AFKs, sometimes half an hour in length, to take care of his needs. Our resources are pretty thin, and I have to carefully manage the times I go out to work or for errands to make sure he's not alone too long. Going out for amusement or recreation is pretty much out of the question.

So, my social life and recreation is this game. I have a small handful of people whom I am in an SG with, who can tolerate my sudden and lengthy absences, but they've started to drift away from the game. I don't generally do PuGs, for obvious reasons. So, I solo most of the time.

Even with my stumbling blocks toward participation in teams in this game, I'd manage to get in a TF or so a month. Sometimes we'd finish with everyone who started, sometimes we wouldn't, but we would finish, and usually there'd be more than three or four of us.

With this change, my participation on a team has become more a burden than a tolerated inclusion. Before, if I needed to take an extended AFK, I would simply log from the game without quitting the TF. The mission or two I would miss would be adjusted for the new number of team members, and when I came back, it would be adjusted again, and I'd continue on until either I needed to AFK again, or the TF finished.

Now, if I take an AFK to feed him or take care of his bathroom needs, my TF team still has to pick up my mobs, even if I'm not online. And forget me getting in on any TFs once players find out that, yes, I -will- likely need to go away for up to half an hour at times. I lay this right out at the start if, for some reason, I join a team that doesn't know me well. Honestly, how many of you reading this would want me on your team, knowing this?

Sure, I could go play another game, an offline that I can solo... but I'd miss the social aspect. And even soloing this game, yes, there is a social aspect, with the global channels, /tells, and when they're around, coalition and SG channels. There are people I can talk to. Besides that, there's simply no other game quite like CoH. So I stay here.

I could simply avoid TFs altogether, sure. But I find badging fun, and I like getting the TF Commander accolade on my various characters. I enjoy taking on the AVs at the end. Do I like the chance at a rare recipe? Sure, I do, just like I used to like the prize in a box of Crackerjacks or breakfast cereal when I was a kid, but it's not central to my enjoyment of TFs. In fact, if there was a way to do TFs the same way we did before this change, just by pushing a button at the start that said, 'No Recipe', I'd do it in a heartbeat.

This change to TFs has pretty much turned me into the bad guy. Considering all the other roadblocks to me just having a little fun, it makes me sad. And considering what I've learned about this actually helping out some of those it was supposed to deter, it leaves me a little angry and confused.

---

Links to my Virtueverse crap

...damn...

---

Morvani, you are not the bad person. Let the TF/SF know what the deal is up front, if they don;t support you, then they cannot, if they can, rock on. The real bad is the bogus logic being pushed on the vast majority that have been playing these TF/SFs for YEARS like this and now suddenly are told we are wrong, and this is unacceptable. Not until the ugly Market (not IOs IMO, but the economy in which we manage our IOs) was introduced was this bad news, this TF/SF "exploit." You are gonna be one of many people dealing with another decision based on a few vs. the masses of customers. I seriously am not too happy with game direction as a whole since issue 9. Only decent things I have liked are new game content such as Faultline arcs.

Hang in there, not sure of your server, but on Triumph, I would be willing to support you, or anyone else that stated up front, where they stood on time to complete a given TF. Based on the PUGs strengths/weaknesses, we could decided whether we stood a chance or not if people dropped.

---

"Oh NO! I'm so sorry baba! you and your wife will be sorely missed...s#@!, i did it again, didn't I?" - mintmiki
Animal Farm ID:71800
When Alts Collide: 134432