NCSoft acquires "City of" Franchise!
By
2Negative,
Posted on: 2007-11-06 13:34 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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What about pohsyb? He's a programmer and posted sometimes. Is he coming with us?
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Actually we acquired the whole COH team +1 pohsyb is coming with us!
Ex
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I'm pretty curious about the programmers. Like, I know Wraith was working on the CoH graphics engine. Did he move over, or was he long since lost to MUO or the "other" cryptic project?
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What about pohsyb? He's a programmer and posted sometimes. Is he coming with us?
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Actually we acquired the whole COH team +1 pohsyb is coming with us!
Ex
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I'm pretty curious about the programmers. Like, I know Wraith was working on the CoH graphics engine. Did he move over, or was he long since lost to MUO or the "other" cryptic project?
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I'm waiting to hear back from Ex and LH to update the The Dev Tracker.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
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Seriously. This griping about "We need compensation" is silly.
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I agree. And I don't particular care. I have both, I've played both, I've enjoyed both. That's more than enough.
I do feel a little bad about the friend I talked into buying CoV just a few days ago. Worst timing ever.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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Yeah but your friend still gets that free month which the converted accounts don't. It's still all good 
Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
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"Bad design shortcuts" was creating a grand total of 6 zones (Mercy, Oaks, Cap, Sharkhead, Nerva, St. Martial, +1 if you count I7) and cramming those full of important stuff, making the gameworld as a whole feel incredibly small. Why make two zones 2/3s of the size when you could cram everything into one? Except then players always see the same places. How many people actually LIKE spending time in Sharkhead Island?
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I prefer this aspect of CoV greatly.
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"Bad design shortcuts" was keeping everyone contained within the same zone for 10 levels a stretch where City of Heroes mixes things up a bit.
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I prefer this aspect of CoV so much words almost cannot describe it.
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"Bad design shortcuts" was adding in twice the story arcs but each a third of the length and each throwing out interesting information only as an afterthought (Oh, before I forget, the Rikti are humans. You learn something new every day!). Good storytelling and good stories replaced by short arcs just so there are more of them, no single one-off missions in addition to that, no hunt missions for those who like them...
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I feel this is even more subjective than the other two complaints. With rare exception I prefer the CoV arcs to the CoH ones. Yes, there are a few things they just throw at you, and that could be better. I don't let a few stones drag down the fact that I was handed what I consider a bag of diamonds.
Plus, neither game tells you everything. For example, you learn things about the CoT from CoV that you never learn anywhere in CoH. I like the variety.
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CoV may or may not have had things actually designed better, but it shipped with a lot less actual done on it than the original CoH, and a whole bunch else just copied whole-sale from CoH. As an expansion, it was very rich and rewarding. As a standalone game, it's very, very lacking. Let's hope that if we DO get a paid expansion, it's a real expansion that knows what it's trying to achieve.
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Honestly, I hope opinions like yours don't shape their future actions very much. I will get a product I like better that way.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Yeah but your friend still gets that free month which the converted accounts don't. It's still all good
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He does! But the CoV box is more than $15 so it'll be a somewhat expensive free month!
Mostly I'm worried because he's a notorious tightwad. I just got him talked back into the game, I hope this doesn't push him away.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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Yeah but then you can take him on debt sprees and get that wiped, etc etc. Have him create a VG and pad it, and then when we get that Prestige bonus 
Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
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I find it funny that I looked at the announcement discussion in the European boards, and nobody there was complaining about people getting the game for free and asking "compensation". The US population is being a bit too noisy over something that's not a big deal.
Cultural differences ftw.
www.SaveCOH.com: Calls to Action and Events Calendar
This is what 3700 heroes in a single zone looks like.
Thanks to @EnsonsDeath for the GVE code that made me VIP again!
Wait - the EUROS get this TOO!?! Blasphemy!!
Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
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So for the people that bought CoH and CoV what do we get.
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Debt wipe and free prestige.
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And for those of us who already have both CoH/CoV, have zero debt, and aren't members of Supergroups?
Out of curiosity, what do we get?
-Buxley
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Time...to start working on your debt badges, make some friends, and...it's a sekrit!
Ex
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OK, groovy, as long as those customers get a nod.
I think those trying to poo-poo this is a "others getting something free doesn't equate to you being denied something" are being a bit thick with regard to marketing. You do NOT inform a customer base that buying the product early holds no benefits, and you certainly don't hint that simply not spending the money will see the product acquried for free down the line.
It's obviously in NC's best interest to make those who spend the full dollars upon release feel special, even if only cosmetically - making early/often purchase undesirable the sales equivalent of swallowing draino.
Edit: (As you can see from the post directly below mine, simply writing off any such concerns as "whiners who speak 1337" is far more fun than actually considering customer incentive. Where's the fun in reality?)
Actually, here's more fuel to the flames: an UK magazine called PCZone gave away COV accounts not long ago. And now, having COH "given away", they're getting both games for free.
Cue the hysterical "It's not fair!!! I demand compensation!!!"
(Probably with lots of caps, leetspeak, and UniqueDragon's grammar.)
www.SaveCOH.com: Calls to Action and Events Calendar
This is what 3700 heroes in a single zone looks like.
Thanks to @EnsonsDeath for the GVE code that made me VIP again!
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"Bad design shortcuts" was creating a grand total of 6 zones (Mercy, Oaks, Cap, Sharkhead, Nerva, St. Martial, +1 if you count I7) and cramming those full of important stuff, making the gameworld as a whole feel incredibly small. Why make two zones 2/3s of the size when you could cram everything into one?
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Personally, with the exception of Faultline/Striga Isle, I find the CoV zones more compelling and better designed than the ones in CoH. They all have a more distinct look/feel. A common complaint from people I know who tried CoH, but didn't stick with it, was that "all the zones looked the same". While that is overstating it, and no longer as true as it once was, I do see where they're coming from. I don't hear that complaint about CoV,
The smaller size is a boon. It means less time of running from mish to mish (not to mention the improved mish structure in CoV, which is much less likely to make you run from zone to zone...). Also, less zones means it's easier to get base teleporters to each zone.
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"Bad design shortcuts" was keeping everyone contained within the same zone for 10 levels a stretch where City of Heroes mixes things up a bit.
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Ok, but some of the zones you can choose from to "mix things up" might as well not exist... take Galaxy City for example... the red-headed step-child of CoH.
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Good storytelling and good stories replaced by short arcs just so there are more of them, no single one-off missions in addition to that, no hunt missions for those who like them...
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Personally, I like shorter arcs. It tends to mean more diversity in the types of mishs and mobs I fight, because I can move on to new contacts/story arcs (12+ mishis in a row fighting nothing but sprockets? No thanks). Also, the CoV mishs tend to have more AVs/EBs in them (at least until you get into the higher lvls), which makes them more interesting/challenging. Shorter stories =\= bad stories... see comics.
And... there are people who like hunt mishs?!? Clearly you move in different circles than I. Almost everyone I know views them as an annoying barrier/timesink to moving on to "real" mishs. Btw, there are hunt mishs in CoV, but thankfully, there are a lot less.
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CoV may or may not have had things actually designed better, but it shipped with a lot less actual done on it than the original CoH, and a whole bunch else just copied whole-sale from CoH. As an expansion, it was very rich and rewarding. As a standalone game, it's very, very lacking.
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I will give you that in certain regards there was more, content-wise, to CoH (not at its launch but at the time CoV launched) than to CoV. Like epic ATs, some more GMs and TFs. But, with few exceptions, the implementations were of a higher quality. Inherents are far better integrated/implemented into the villain ATs than they are into heroes (understandable, given that they were after-thoughts for heroes, while villains were developed with them in mind). There is more to the GMs in CoV... like the horde of Scrapyarders that follow Ghost of Scrapyard around... the fact that he has an expansive story that you can learn of from your contact mishs... the fact that he doesn't just stand in one place, but "goes for a walk". I don't think you can even argue that the TFs in CoV are not better implemented. Positron's TF anyone?
Plus, there are (oddly enough to me) still, to this day, people that only play CoV. That speaks for its quality as a stand-alone product. Of course those people will now have access to CoH, if they want it or not.
I guess my major issue with your post (and the one that drew out an oh-so-rare post from me) was describing CoV as a "bum deal". I think that was a grossly inaccurate and unfair characterization. If you were not completely satisfied with CoV, then that's all good and well. You are entitled to your opinion. But a "bum deal" translates into "rip-off" (at least to me) and CoV was not that... in any way.
Most retail expansions to MMORPGs tend to sell for $30+ (at time of release). CoV was $50, the same price as most major new games. CoV gave you an included month of play (a $15 value). You don't get that from other expansions. So, at worst, CoV was a $35 ($50-$15) expansion. The $5 difference between that and a "normal" expansion, is an amazing value, given how much new content was added.
/rant, lol 
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"Bad design shortcuts" was creating a grand total of 6 zones (Mercy, Oaks, Cap, Sharkhead, Nerva, St. Martial, +1 if you count I7) and cramming those full of important stuff, making the gameworld as a whole feel incredibly small. Why make two zones 2/3s of the size when you could cram everything into one? Except then players always see the same places. How many people actually LIKE spending time in Sharkhead Island?
"Bad design shortcuts" was keeping everyone contained within the same zone for 10 levels a stretch where City of Heroes mixes things up a bit.
"Bad design shortcuts" was adding in twice the story arcs but each a third of the length and each throwing out interesting information only as an afterthought (Oh, before I forget, the Rikti are humans. You learn something new every day!). Good storytelling and good stories replaced by short arcs just so there are more of them, no single one-off missions in addition to that, no hunt missions for those who like them...
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Unfortunately, while I agree with much of your summation, Sam (I love red side but man... one dimensional) you are decrying a trend in gaming in general, not just a poor direction for CoX.
Observe the move from CoH to CoX - it simulated an effect it normally takes a year to see in MMO gaming: when CoH was released, the praise for its zone design and travel system were loud and proud: the travel was labeled the best and fastest thing around, such a nice change from plodding about in other games, and the ease of getting from mission to mission was highly lauded. The *only* challenge lay in getting to lvl 14 with the occassional run through higher level mobs in Sky or Steel.
(And here I was thinking "Lord this game really removes the challenge of travel entirely..." just to show you my mindset - I find odd map corners which are impossibly dangerous to approach without a team and a plan very appealing. No map corners is off limits with our travel powers.)
Then CoV came out with its "Entire 10 level stretches of content packed into one zone and only one zone" design, and suddenly and literally, within a month we had posts decrying CoH's zone design: Suddenly the best travel system around was slow and undesirable, and suddenly the ease of getting from mission to mission was "Why would I want to zone twice blue side when it's all in one zone on red? Blue side travel is lame."
Each successive generation of MMO gamers demands more simplicity in its product, each enjoys a more one-dimensional set up, and each introduction of more simplicity breeds demand for more. Any flavor details which don't contribute to directly mixing things up are unnecessary.
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Ok, but some of the zones you can choose from to "mix things up" might as well not exist... take Galaxy City for example... the red-headed step-child of CoH.
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On all my servers, Galaxy is the starting zone of choice for any players that does not want to stare at a mass inane broadcast about sewer trials and costume contest and share the lag of 100 players all dancing under the Atlas statue. To me, it is a necessity: it provides a nice solo experience, there are many willing to team there just for a change of pace. On events such as ToTing and Xmas gift hunts, zones like this save the day. And outside of such events, it offers a wonderful alternative to the same old same old - for the outdated players who find diversity in out-of-combat experience important to game play. But it does not contribute directly to mixing things up and getting to the next mission ASAP, therefore it is chaffe and unnecessary.
We have a slew of gamers struggling along under the mindset of "But all the content and 20,000 villains packed into 6 or 7 zones isn't very realistic or immersive..." and they're a step behind - immersion and flavor content takes 2nd place to mixin' it up.
I guarantee if they introduced a "port directly from mission to mission upon completion" button in the next issue, we'd be hearing how lame it was to have to exit and use travel at all within a month.
This is the direction gaming is going, so we can say it's "bad design" but sadly, in that it appeals to what the next gen of gamers seem to crave, it's not - it gets them money.
It's just that your and my desire for content outside of combat is outdated and passe.
CoH still has the best travel system in MMORPGs. CoV has the same travel system, but does not needlessly force you to cover greater in-zone distances and/or zone as much, when you're looking to go from mish to mish. You also tend to get the option to call your contact quicker and so spend less time getting your next mish. I just don't see the downside to this.
It does not prevent you from running/flying/leaping around and enjoying the zone. There are times I feel like running the "streets" and beating up on random outdoor spawns (or just cruising the zone and admiring it). There are (more) times when I want to run mishs, because they are more interesting... both from a story aspect and from a combat perspective.
Btw, as I previously stated, the zone design was probably one of the biggest complaints I heard about CoH. Too many zones just looked too similar. Never really bothered me, but that doesn't mean I don't see it.
Look... if I'm playing a game that involves going out into the great unknown (be it space, ancient ruins or a jungle), then I get the whole "get a team together with a good strategy just so I can get to this part of the world. That's not what I look for in this game. Our playground is a city, or a set of small islands. You're not exploring the unknown regions here. Unless, that is, you're going to the Shadow-Shard... and there travel gets a bit more complicated (poor SSers).
Just to combat your premise that simplification is what "the next generation of gamers" crave, let's just say that my 1st game-system was the Pong console (not even sure that term is appropriate, lol)...
Think of it this way. People who buy the GvE pack are getting both games for around 30 bucks or less depending on sales. 30 bucks is less that either COV or COH sold for at launch meaning that people have already gotten both games for less than the price of one for a while now, and yet no gnashing of teeth about people feeling ripped off.
Getting new things, especially software, is always going to be more expensive than waiting for the special bundle a few years later.
So what do the early adoptors get for having both accounts for longer? Well they get the comfort of having an established set of players that they play with, a base if they want, more influence, more experience, and the fun of having both games for longer. Thats what the money went to.
If people can look past themselves for one minute they can see this as being a net bonus towards the game itself as opposed to a percieved "slap in the face" which its not. Its a change in marketing coming from a change in ownership, which means that the player is entitled to nothing more than they already have. I hope that they dont cave and give any kind of refund or reimbursment because it would set a dangerous precedent for future marketing changes.
how did this become a cov vs Coh Discussion, we have other threads for that
Does not always detect CoH
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On all my servers, Galaxy is the starting zone of choice for any players that does not want to stare at a mass inane broadcast about sewer trials and costume contest and share the lag of 100 players all dancing under the Atlas statue. To me, it is a necessity: it provides a nice solo experience, there are many willing to team there just for a change of pace.
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Interesting. On my servers, Galaxy is a ghost city.
It used to be my favorite starting zone way back in the day (initially I just liked the name, I think, and also the layout for going street-hunting). Nowadays, every new toon starts in AP, if for no other reason than that it gives me easier access to the Hollows, I can quickly find a team there, and I really don't experience much lag. With every issue, when the devs keep adding stuff to AP (like the Vanguard base), I shake my head and say "Why could this not go into Galaxy? Give me a reason to go there..." The random chatter can equally amuse or annoy me.
Btw, it's Hallowed not Hallow... but I suppose I should just be happy you didn't call me Hollowed
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how did this become a cov vs Coh Discussion, we have other threads for that
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Essentially it's grown into a debate about what model new content should follow if there are future paid expansions.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Actually, here's more fuel to the flames: an UK magazine called PCZone gave away COV accounts not long ago. And now, having COH "given away", they're getting both games for free.
Cue the hysterical "It's not fair!!! I demand compensation!!!"
(Probably with lots of caps, leetspeak, and UniqueDragon's grammar.)
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Didn't we recently have a promotion here where people could make their trial accounts full accounts just by starting to make monthly fee payments and didn't even need to buy the game? I think we did.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
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Interesting. On my servers, Galaxy is a ghost city.
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That's why the soloists start there. It's what I do. Then again, I find that broadcast in Atlas produces negative pressure on one's IQ, and strive to avoid it.
I don't feel, however, that dev effort on future works should go into creating all the things that a zone entails (they have to represent a ton of work placing all the detail) just so loners have a place to hide out. Even if I'm one of the loners.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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If people can look past themselves for one minute they can see this as being a net bonus towards
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I think if people could look past trying to link it to ego for a minute and view it as customer incentive, a lot of this would be moot.
(Edit: The use of the term "entitlement" is cracking me up.)
I read through just the first 37 pages, so if some of this has been covered already, please forgive me.
New Wishlist for CoX under NC.
1. Please, pretty please, now that CoH and CoV are now effectivley merged, can we add the CoV emblems to the Super Group emblem menu?
2. Now that bases are open to everyone, can we please spend some time, and make some more SG missions on the mission computer? Throw in some extra prestige bonuses for completion, and the SG's will eat them up.
3. I am all for a paid expansion. Particularly one that focuses on upper level content, and introduces some new venues. Like space stations, egyptian deserts, jungles, and maybe some landmarks, like the white house or the great wall of china. A paid expansion would justify the time and resources spent on such a product, and so long as it came out polished and reletively bug free, I would be all for it.
4. Once the merger is complete, please issue a fairly detailed statement regarding the status of the game, and plans for the future.
5. Give the Villians a little more parity with heros, before the next paid expansion. First, give them their evil squid Epic Arch Type. It's been promised, and in theory shouldn't be that tough. Let them get their nictus and peace bringer renegades.
Second, Introduce a few non-arachnos patrons and patron power sets. This way those who wish to RP their independance can get epic powers too. Besides, the villian powers are some what limited right now. If I want a dark and creepy feel I got Ghost Widow, if I want a tech feel I got Black Scorpion, if I want electricity I got Sirrocco. Mako is the odd ball one. We need a few more to add to the flavor. Perhaps some patrons that deal with the elements (wind, Fire, Ice, Earth), and one that is more nature oriented. Right now the Heros have far more variety, and more rp flexability.
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CoH still has the best travel system in MMORPGs. CoV has the same travel system, but does not needlessly force you to cover greater in-zone distances and/or zone as much, when you're looking to go from mish to mish. You also tend to get the option to call your contact quicker and so spend less time getting your next mish. I just don't see the downside to this.
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Precisely. I could not have encapsulated this player-types view of things better. The term "needless" is key, and the more between-combat content which falls under that heading, the less "in between combat" content we'll see introduced in the future due to this mindset, until we've achieve the aforementioned "port from mission to mission" power, which will see any travel between combats as "unnecessary".
The idea that said travel or content is key to immersion is a concept a lot of older gamers are still struggling under.
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It does not prevent you from running/flying/leaping around and enjoying the zone.
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Ah, yes, but due to the prevalence of this desire for "more compact gaming with less distractions between battles" there is less zone to explore, and such exploration is no longer necessary nor key to progress, much less immersion.
I'm not saying it's good or bad. I personally think it's a shame, but only from my perspective. And in the end, what sells is what wins: if more one-dimensional content packed into 10-lvl zones with minimal downtime between fights is what most players want, that's where the games will go.
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how did this become a cov vs Coh Discussion, we have other threads for that
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Essentially it's grown into a debate about what model new content should follow if there are future paid expansions.
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Yup. But it is admittedly somewhat off-topic. Sorry if I've started/contributed to a thread-jack. Heh... haven't even said what I think of THE ANNOUNCEMENT.
I see the potential for this to be an incredible opportunity for the continuation and growth of my favorite game. I can also see the potential for abject disaster. Most likely, it'll be more like "business as usual" which, if that means things'll continue as they have for the last year, is overall a good thing in my opinion.
I think the conflict of interest between having both CoX and MUO had to factor in Cryptic's decision to sell the CoX IP. I would not be surprised at all if they were given an incentive by either Marvel or MS to divest themselves of the competing product.
Fortunately, the way in which this has happened is pretty much a best-case scenario. All the significant people who've been involved in CoX in a meaningful manner recently (sorry Jack, that's not you anymore) are still on board, with a publisher, who has always been involved in this game now owning it. The fact that they're investing in setting up a new development studio, with CoX/the CoX dev team at the center, seems a very positive sign. Now, eventually, we'll loose talent to other projects within the new studio, but that happens eventually anyways.
For now, I'm taking an optimistic wait-and-see approach.
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perhaps Cryptic knows their MUO game is so killer, they knew CoX would not be able to compete and figured it may be a better idea to sell the healthy cow than have it die in their hands.
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I think it more likely that, aside from all of the player concerns voiced periodically on the forums, that the program managers at Marvel, Microsoft, and NCSoft were all telling Crytpic, "You've got a conflict of interests here. What are you doing about it?"
Selling the "City of" IP is a big gamble for Cryptic. They're sacrificing an established income stream for a cash payment and the potential that the Marvel brand name will help them establish a new income stream. Despite the players that moon around about how "of course a Marvel game will beat the pants off of CoH", history shows that gamers have not been kind to licensed properties in the past.
The Matrix was a miserable failure. (The guy who said it was a successful niche game at first was ignoring the fact that their peak of subscriptions was less than 70k and that a blockbuster property like The Matrix was expected to draw multiple hundreds of thousands, not a "niche" audience.) Galaxies was, and continues to be profitable, but it was never the success that the producers rightfully expected a Star Wars game to be, despite (or maybe because of) the involvement of LucasArts. DDO should have been a runaway success, yet it continues to struggle. LOTRO looks to be another Galaxies - profitable enough that it will probably live for several years, but no more successful than any of its competitors.
The only licensed property that has really succeeded (and succeeded wildly beyond anybody's expectations) is WoW. That is because it was developed and published by Blizzard, the creators of the IP in the first place, and it was based on a IP whose fans were already primed for a new kind of gaming experience involving that IP. Additionally, WoW (no matter what its detractors say) had depth at launch that hardly any other game has had thanks to the fact that it DOES have this huge IP history to build on. Is it formulaic? Sure, but it's formulaic in all the right ways and it manages to build from there.
The point being that MUO and DCO are not lining up to be runaway hits out of the starting gate just because they happen to based on DC and Marvel universes. Players are not going to be satisfied in the long term with playing with Superman and Spiderman if it isn't actually all that fun to play.
Ummm, I've gotten off the topic so I'll stop here. The main point is that this looks to me like it's a good thing for both NCSoft and for CoX and I've been watching the industry long enough to have a decent sense of these things. NCSoft would not have set things up in this fashion unless their intention is to try and insure that the status quo stays unchanged except for the better (like with more cash for projects and the ability to leverage resources from other divisions).
Hey, if this is the first step to a NCSoft Access Pass, so much the better. I know I'll be in line to buy one if that happens.