The exploit is not: using an endurance power to recover what you lose from the crash... or before the crash so that after the crash you have little or no *net loss*
The exploit is: using a power so that it animates when rage should crash... thus causing the -endurance you should be getting from rage to "get bypassed" and not happen.
Basically there should be a negative endurance that always happens with the rage crash. If you gain endurance so that you still have endurance after the crash you are fine. if you gain endurance so that you donot lose the endurance that you should lose from the crash it is an exploit.
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Using End recovery powers is fine; having the power itself negate the crash isn't.
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With all due respect _Castle_, Rage has worked like this for nearly 2 years now, why the heck does it have to be 'fixed' after all this time?
Stacking Rage to avoid the end crash is a penality in of itself, since you experience the def debuff/no external action period more often.
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but doesnt that make it an exploit too according to some?
Nice, so skill is an exploit, and usuing powers as designed is an exploit......... Guess leveling is an exploit!!!!!
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Maybe you should actually read Castle's response before going off the deep end.
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Oh no, this is in response to people like Tic Toc, and jennikins, you know people that think skill is an exploit, I grabbed Arcanavilles post to highlight the absurdity of "EVERYTHINS AN EXPLOIT" that people like to go to when the chips are down and they didnt think of it first
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If you would go back and re-read my follow up post, you'd see that it was just a simple misunderstanding on my part. I thought someone was suggesting that using endurance recovery powers would allow you to avoid the endurance crash, not simply recover from it simultaneously and avoiding any of the negative aspects of the crash.
Big difference there. One's an exploit, the other is just good strategy. My point being that an exploit is an exploit, regardless of how much skill, timing, or luck it takes to pull it off. This particular case is clearly not an exploit, so it's a moot arguement.
Formerly "Back Alley Brawler"
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Using End recovery powers is fine; having the power itself negate the crash isn't.
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With all due respect _Castle_, Rage has worked like this for nearly 2 years now, why the heck does it have to be 'fixed' after all this time?
Stacking Rage to avoid the end crash is a penality in of itself, since you experience the def debuff/no external action period more often.
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Can they use that logic for all long standing bugs, known and unknown?
Think of the time it would save them!
Formerly "Back Alley Brawler"
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Using End recovery powers is fine; having the power itself negate the crash isn't.
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With all due respect _Castle_, Rage has worked like this for nearly 2 years now, why the heck does it have to be 'fixed' after all this time?
Stacking Rage to avoid the end crash is a penality in of itself, since you experience the def debuff/no external action period more often.
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same mentality that caused invincbility to be 'fixed' (2-3 pulses more than normal) even AFTER states himself said it felt right.
Its narrow vision. I want it to do 'A'. If it does anything else but 'A', its wrong and your exploiting. For the record: You can exploit dev bad programming, yes.
Rage is an awesome power, but 10 seconds of inactivity (nuisance), -25 end (um ouch on the blue) AND -20 defence is a horrid penalty.
And SS was balanced to rage. without rage, SS sucks. Better to go stone/ or axe/
If I can sometimes (double rage doesnt always work, but enough) get no drop by adding ANOTHER pool power (hasten, as super speed is usually not a travel power of choice), unless you ahve a pocket kinetic. I only do this on my brute (my tanker is 50, so I dropped hasten for concept, got LBE), as my brute has horrible endurance problems (I even went 3 dam/3 end red. Helps some). I feel SS as some strange bug on it.
It wasnt always like this. Hit me around lvl 35-36 after some update (forgot which).
besides I worry with all the other bugs, fury problems in pvp, citadels TF producing uber high warwolves, etc. Somehow, this will become a priority.
(and didnt any of the devs ever play an ss tank or brute?)
50 Tanks: Invul/ss, Fire/ice/fire, Ice/em, Stone/fire
WP/Stone, dark/dark, shld/mace
50 Other: WS, SS/dark/sc brute, BS/Regen/WM scrpr, fire/fire/force blaster, rad/kin corr, mind/rad ctrl, ill/storm cntrl
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Using End recovery powers is fine; having the power itself negate the crash isn't.
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With all due respect _Castle_, Rage has worked like this for nearly 2 years now, why the heck does it have to be 'fixed' after all this time?
Stacking Rage to avoid the end crash is a penality in of itself, since you experience the def debuff/no external action period more often.
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Can they use that logic for all long standing bugs, known and unknown?
Think of the time it would save them!
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Maybe because there is no reason to fix something that's not broken. As I said in my 1st post, stacking rage to avoid the end penalty results in you experiencing the no external action/ def debuff more often.
As many have said in this thread, the no external action is by far the most severe part part of the crash. So getting hit with that part of the crash more often seems to be a fair trade off for saving some end.
I'd personally prefer Rage be left alone since a fix might bring more problems or bugs. Like the gauntlet/taunt aura problem that tanks and brutes currently have had for a long time now, or the pvp fury bug that has been with us since COV was launched.
Every time you hit rage 120 seconds later you should have the endurance loss and the 10 second crash. Stacking rage should not "remove the endurance cost"
2 non-stacked cycles = 20 second crash and 2 endurance losses
2 Stacked cycles = 20 second crash and 0 endurance losses.
Stacking rage should result in the same endurance losses and the same crash regardless if stacked or not. This is an exploit plain and simple. You acting as if having to experience 2 rage crashes when stacking is more then experiencing 2 rage crashes when not stacking is simply bogus.
Now what you will say is it is used more often thus you crash more... in which case you also get the benefit of double stack THB and Dmg when it is stacked... which is your balance. Removing the endurance cost is not part of that balance.
If when raged got stacked it removed the THB and Dmg bonus would you say working as intended? Removing the endurance drain is no different just a positive for us rather then a negative.
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2 non-stacked cycles = 20 second crash and 2 endurance losses
2 Stacked cycles = 20 second crash and 0 endurance losses.
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I see you conveniently left out the fact that if you stack the cycles the crash happens more. It's silly to compare things like that and leave out the fact that the second one will happen more than the first.
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Stacking rage should result in the same endurance losses and the same crash regardless if stacked or not. This is an exploit plain and simple. You acting as if having to experience 2 rage crashes when stacking is more then experiencing 2 rage crashes when not stacking is simply bogus.
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It's not more, but it's enough of a drawback that I don't stack rage anymore. I'll take endurance loss over standing around doing nothing even more than I do already, thanks.
It's really unfair to call it an exploit. It's an unavoidable bug if you want to have 2 rages going at the same time.
It's a bug. Not an exploit. Whether or not it's a bug worth fixing is up the devs. Maybe they'll decide they think it's fine the way it is. Maybe not.
The mechanic is a bug. Specifically building a toon such a way as to make use of this bug knowing it is there is an exploit.
Now if someone had always doubled stacked rage (people do) well then its a bug... if they had not done this before or only after finding out this happens start to double stack rage they are exploiting a broken mechanic.
When does a bug become an exploit? When one knows of such a bug and builds or plays in a manner to knowing exploit it.
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2 non-stacked cycles = 20 second crash and 2 endurance losses
2 Stacked cycles = 20 second crash and 0 endurance losses.
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I see you conveniently left out the fact that if you stack the cycles the crash happens more. It's silly to compare things like that and leave out the fact that the second one will happen more than the first.
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I see you "conviently lost you ability to read. Look at the very next sentence 
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Now what you will say is it is used more often thus you crash more... in which case you also get the benefit of double stack THB and Dmg when it is stacked... which is your balance. Removing the endurance cost is not part of that balance.
If when raged got stacked it removed the THB and Dmg bonus would you say working as intended? Removing the endurance drain is no different just a positive for us rather then a negative.
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It's silly to compare things like that and leave out the fact the stacked one will also have stacked Dmg and THB.
Stacking rage gives you 2X the damage and to-hit buff. That is balanced by having 2X the crash. Simple math there; twice the benifit, twice the penalty.
2X the damage and to-hit buff and 2X 1/2 of the crash (ie, avoiding the edurance cost) is nothing other than a bug.
Formerly "Back Alley Brawler"
The simple math is
2X the damage and to-hit buff and
2X the crash
I.E. 2X the crash not just the downtime but the endurance drain too. I think this is what you are saying.
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The simple math is
2X the damage and to-hit buff and
2X the crash
I.E. 2X the crash not just the downtime but the endurance drain too. I think this is what you are saying.
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Right, that's assuming everything's working as it should. Having stacked rage negate that endurance cost would be broken.
Formerly "Back Alley Brawler"
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Rage is an awesome power, but 10 seconds of inactivity (nuisance), -25 end (um ouch on the blue) AND -20 defence is a horrid penalty.
And SS was balanced to rage. without rage, SS sucks. Better to go stone/ or axe/
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/stone or /axe, but that's nitpicking.
Without rage, Super Strength does better damage than War Mace and Ice. Super Strengh also has better control than War Mace.
With rage, Super Strength does better damage than anything else, ignoring resistances.
Perhaps then, Super Strength should be reblanced to be less reliant upon Rage?
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Rage is an awesome power, but 10 seconds of inactivity (nuisance), -25 end (um ouch on the blue) AND -20 defence is a horrid penalty.
And SS was balanced to rage. without rage, SS sucks. Better to go stone/ or axe/
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/stone or /axe, but that's nitpicking.
Without rage, Super Strength does better damage than War Mace and Ice. Super Strengh also has better control than War Mace.
With rage, Super Strength does better damage than anything else, ignoring resistances.
Perhaps then, Super Strength should be reblanced to be less reliant upon Rage?
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Sweet lord no! My main has been rebalanced enough during his 30 months of existence. I'd rather not have the entire set potentially mucked up.
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Thanks for repling Castle, I still think some of the crashes for tanks are too steep, but its nice to know you are around to at least look at our concerns.
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Of course he is! You guys aren't blasters after all. :P
::runs and hides::
funny you should say using a power to cause rage not cost the -25 end when it crashes.
on my stone/ss tank i have reage slotted so that when i'm not in granite the power will be recharged and activated as soon as it crashes. in the first place. I've allways felt the end drop when it crashes, weither i activate rage at the crash or another attack. I've had it so much to the point that i've lost toggles on the crash
V-Tronix - Angry Angels
V-Tron Elec/EM - V-Tron X EM/EA
To Build a Better Hero #53098 [Newly edited and looking for Feedback] - Renegade Robots: V-Tron's Task Force # - A Summer Song and A Winters Tail #104106
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funny you should say using a power to cause rage not cost the -25 end when it crashes.
on my stone/ss tank i have reage slotted so that when i'm not in granite the power will be recharged and activated as soon as it crashes. in the first place. I've allways felt the end drop when it crashes, weither i activate rage at the crash or another attack. I've had it so much to the point that i've lost toggles on the crash
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In order to avoid the crash, you need to activate the 2nd rage before the 1st rage expires. Basically you need to have 2 rages running at the same time.
I think IF you are able to avoid the crash then it's probably a left over from when they had rage take all of your end.
I remember you could avoid the crash by 2 stacking it back then. It was probably just never fixed because they lowed the amount you lose & added all kinds of fun extras. For what it's worth I think -25 end, only affecting self, & -20 def are pretty steep. At least 1 of those could be scaled back I think.
Also does anyone know if the 20% debuff was preED/GDN? If so then it really DOES need to be scaled back to say 10% or something. At the very least conserve power should lessen the end drop.
It also just makes me laugh how you can still fly, port, turn into an unstoppable killing machine, go invisible, ect when rage drops. But for the life of you, you can't think up a good "yo mamma" bag to taunt a baddies with. 
In my opinion Rage is broken in 2 ways
#1) The crash is harsh
- I do like the idea of the huge debuff to damage (maybe 99% so 100 dam becomes 1) as well as a smaller Accuracy debuff instead of the only affecting self
- The end cost makes sense but might be better to eliminate it rather then fix the bug possibly have a slow and -recharge, -recovery effect (you are exhausted)
- The defence decrease should be better balanced to affect all tanks equally maybe -10% defence and -10% damage resist
- A visible icon for all crashes would be nice
#2) Double stacking Rage bonuses
- It is in my opinion that no power should stack with it self except if the targets and or activator are different.
- Thus under the effects of 2 rages you should the same 80% Damage and 20% accuracy you had before.
My reason for the such extreme damage debuff it so that when 1 rage is down and still under the effect of an other that the debuff greatly over shadows the buff
As a passing thought -fly would be amusing in the crash as well(rage crashes between missions and you land in a group of purples. RAGE DEATH!)((-fly is not a serious suggestion just a humorous thought))
Remember this is to make rage better for all those who use it and those who do not, we must be fair to them as well. Unless your a brute then it's all about you baby.
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I think IF you are able to avoid the crash then it's probably a left over from when they had rage take all of your end.
I remember you could avoid the crash by 2 stacking it back then. It was probably just never fixed because they lowed the amount you lose & added all kinds of fun extras. For what it's worth I think -25 end, only affecting self, & -20 def are pretty steep. At least 1 of those could be scaled back I think.
Also does anyone know if the 20% debuff was preED/GDN? If so then it really DOES need to be scaled back to say 10% or something. At the very least conserve power should lessen the end drop.
It also just makes me laugh how you can still fly, port, turn into an unstoppable killing machine, go invisible, ect when rage drops. But for the life of you, you can't think up a good "yo mamma" bag to taunt a baddies with.
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I guess there was a way to avoid the crash... nice how he went right for the bug & nothing else.
Don't see this as a bug fix.. more of a nerf if u ask me. 
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Trust me, guys, the Rage penalties now are far better than they used to be. The original Rage penalty was that you were very suseptible to mez attacks for the 10 seconds, but that was nearly unplayable. You would get mezzed, then die. (This was before Break Frees were set up the way they are now.) The next one they tried was making your end fall to 0. Unfortunately, this pretty much had the same dead effect that being mezzed did when you were in a mob heavy situation.
As annoying as that Rage drop can be sometimes, believe me, it could have been alot worse.
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Myrmydon: Hey, look! Some Malta!
Kali: Let me get this toggle-
Myrmydon group teleports!
Rage drops, Myrmydon gets stunned through Unstoppable
Malta attacks me
Kali: [censored]?
This is a true story.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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BS. It's exploiting a bug. No matter now much skill or cleverness it requires to pull off, it's still an exploit.
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I am curious as to how anything mentioned in the post Flea was replying to is an exploit.
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if it was reference to this:
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There is a "known trick" to defeating any and all End crashes IF you have an end drain power: As your bar is on its way down, pop the end drain power. You have about a 1/2 second window where if you pop the power you still have enough Endurance to use it. It's hard to do and hard to time.
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That's clearly an exploit if it prevents the endurance crash. Unless I'm just misreading that though, maybe the crash still happens and you lose the endurance, but you regain the endurance simultaneously. If that's what's being described then I appologize for misunderstanding the post.
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some armor sets like Energy Aura and Electric armor have end recovery and end cost reduxtion powers.
for example when on my /EA brute if i can get the timing right i will use Conserve Power just as the Icon for overload starts flashing. giving me a few more end ticks on my toggles before they drop after the crash. I then activate energy drain just as the icon stops flashing and is dim for 1 second, by the time energy drain is done annimating overload has crashed and as long as i hit atleast 3 enemies with energy drain i full end and can continue smashing. if i miss i have to pop a CaB or run out side of combat till my end starts ticking back.
that's one of the "Known Trick" he was talking about. It's not a bug, it's not an Exploit. It's luck and good timing that is all
V-Tronix - Angry Angels
V-Tron Elec/EM - V-Tron X EM/EA
To Build a Better Hero #53098 [Newly edited and looking for Feedback] - Renegade Robots: V-Tron's Task Force # - A Summer Song and A Winters Tail #104106