Stealth: we have been mislead
By
Bradd,
Posted on: 2006-06-08 19:35 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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The semicolon means that they are two separate effects. They stack.
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Correct.
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Castle, is anything going to be done to rebalance NPC stealth versus PCs? Right now NPC stealth is far mor powerful as it will totally make you lose targeting on NPCs, yet the NPCs will never lose target on you unless you run away.
It is incredibly agravating that they can continue to follow and fight (waxing my Stalker that I've been tooling with) and yet when I'm hit with smoke grenade or they activate stealth I no longer have a target.
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It's been repeatedly confirmed by the Devs in the past that this is because NPC aggro rules are completely different. Once aggroed a mob doesn't check perception until you leave their (rather large) aggro range or something removes/lowers your position on their aggro list. Until either condition is met they know where you are at all times. It's a limitation of mob AI/perception coding that unfortunately cannot be changed at this point in time.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Actually, one more quick note. Why should everyone be able to get Stealth anyway? Seems more like an AT or AT Power Set to me. Kinda like Stalkers on COV. After all. How may Stealthy Blasters do you see in the comics? Or Stealthy Tanks for that matter? Some things make more sense if taken in a different context.
Carbide Titan
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Ultimate Nick Fury, using a rifle, The Ultimates 
Yep cheesy isnt it.
And you think thats bad...no more commanding pets while invisible either.(not mentioned in patch notes)
My only defense my ninja/poison master mind had is now gone...so that means no more pvp for me.....especially since they also lowered the amount of concealment the power gives as well.
Kind of noticable when i get teleported over and over and killed instantly in pvp zones...especially when i enter into a zone.
And i have never been stupid enough to stand with my guys just so i can auto killed or worse use the worthless body guard ability and let all my guys die from a lame fire ball.
(although it doesnt stop me from abusing others who are dumb enough to do so)
And its kind of noticable the concealment from it isnt working....when just about everyhting in Grandville shoots at me while i am invisible.
I kind of wish it worked sort of like the hide power and would maybe let me do things and then turn back on.....but i guess thats not in the cards for the power....and i kind of would like it to do as the name for it states and as the description states.
Anywise.....I plan to respec out of the concealment pool now...the Phase Shift is worthless as is the Invisibility so no point to have them.
I kind of can still use invisibility for a few missions...but most of the missions are now a Where's Waldo mission....that basically just waste your time....and there is no need for invisibility when you have to defeat everything and end up wasting 2 hours hunting for some lone npc who is hidden somewhere every time.
(You can probably see that i hate those mission types....they are worthless as you can get more exp outside the missions then inside so they are pointless time wastes in my opinion.)
Anywise....I am just shocked no one realized the defense for the power was that lame...I knew it was and posted it was over and over and over....
And now that it basicaly wont let you command pets with it....its even more worthless...as there are not many uses for it...except maybe if you are a masochist.
The developers at least fixed the Superior Invisibility kind of....
I guess the Concealment pool is kind of another red headed step child.
The invisibility in it...has gone onto the list with Jump kick and Phase Shift and team teleport......the list of powers that work but for practicle purposes they are basically for show.
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The invisibility in it...has gone onto the list with Jump kick and Phase Shift and team teleport......the list of powers that work but for practicle purposes they are basically for show.
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Being able to work through the majority of missions and kill a few people (And sometimes, you can click a glowie without people noticing you) is "basically for show"? Or the fact that the majority of people cannot see you?
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Being able to work through the majority of missions and kill a few people (And sometimes, you can click a glowie without people noticing you) is "basically for show"? Or the fact that the majority of people cannot see you?
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I haven't had any problems stealthing missions with Stealth/SS since I7. Sure I have to occaisionally fight things near a glowie but I can still do the missions quickly.
I think the change keeps people from stealthing missions at a difficulty that they wouldn't normally be able to solo and to discourage stealthing on full teams.
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The semicolon means that they are two separate effects. They stack.
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Correct.
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Man, I was soooo close to getting red-named.
RagManX
"if the market were religion Fulmens would be Moses and you'd be L. Ron Hubbard. " --Nethergoat to eryq2
The economy is not broken. The players are
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Why is it okay in the Sacred Church of Risk vs. Reward to gain XP by flying through relatively safe zones to click on Contacts or Phone Booths, but not stealthing through an instance full of potential hostiles to click on glowies? Where does that make any sense?
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Because you do not get XP for clicking on Contacts. (Well, you do for Phone Booths, but there isn't anyone who can't avoid combat doing those) You get XP for doing the mission the Contact sends you to do. So there is STILL a risk involved.
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I think what he meant, was sometimes you're sent by your contact to go talk to someone (often one of your other contacts). Indigo to Crimson, etc...
You almost always get XP for this at about 1/2 of what a mission would be.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
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The semicolon means that they are two separate effects. They stack.
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Correct.
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Man, I was soooo close to getting red-named.
RagManX
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It's not a very exciting red name though. All it means is that Prima's poor writing has caused confusion, and Castle has to clear it up.
At first I thought shadow was a little off, but only because I know that there's a 2-part def bonus. If you actually read the punctuation as is, it reads as (here is a def bonus); (concerning that def bonus). Semicolons are only used to separate comma delimited items when you're already using commas among the items (red,white, and blue; green, yellow, and turqoise). Usually when you use a semicolon it's to tack on something closely related to your current statement. If they wanted to be clearer then they should have said (suppressed)/(unsuppressed) 2.5/5.0.
This is another reason I hate suppression. It needlessly complicates a game that was very straightforward.
also, people don't seem to know how to write clearly anymore...darn kids... society ---> hell etc etc. uphill both ways in the snow naked.
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in the snow naked.
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Happy Thought!
We've all missed the SCOURGE lately. Good to see it's back.
PRTECTR4EVR
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It seems to me stealthing a mission for glowies is no different than getting mission xp from contacts that tell you talk to other contacts or to patrol areas in a city (clicking on phone booths, etc). These types of missions are usually minimum risk to the player too. I guess they're gonna nerf those missions as well?
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They already are nerfed compared to the regular missions. On all of the 'Go talk to the (PvP Zone) Liaison' missions and similar non-combative missions, the XP that my character has gotten has been significantly less than what their normal mission bonus is.
Part of the problem with Statesman's "Risk vs. Reward" reasoning behind implementing concealment suppression is the fact that, as characters go up in level, the amount of XP they get from the mission bonus rises faster than the XP they get from defeating mobs. For example, my level 6 Brute was getting a mission bonus about equal to the XP from four white minions. My level 40 Mastermind is getting a mission bonus equal to more than twenty white minions. The higher level your character is, the more incentive there is to pick missions where all you have to do to complete the mission is to race stealthily to the end and defeat the spawn there, investing the minimum amount of time necessary to get the mission bonus, then dash to the next one. As long as a character can make more XP by rushing to the next 'Defeat BOSS_NAME and his guards' or 'Steal OBJECT from the VILLAIN_GROUP' mission than by staying in the mission to defeat more than the one spawn at the end, then you're going to continue to see people using concealment powers to avoid having to fight their way to the back of the mission.
Rather than supressing concealment powers, I think a more elegant solution would be to have a random chance that one or two mobs within each spawn are given a Perception bonus, offsetting the aggro radius decrease from concealment powers, making it harder for characters to sleaze their way to the end of a mission without aggroing several spawns. Another option might be an exit bonus for a mission if it is cleared. Another might be to lock all of the mission-objective glowies, so that you have the choice between attacking the container holding the objective to break it open, or to go through the mission defeating mobs to find the one that has the key to the container which will let you open it without breaking it open and alerting everyone in the room. Or change the way 'Steal X' missions work and require that the person who took the object exit from the entrance door of the mission -- but the group you took it from has a tracer on the item, with an ambush heading for the tracer, rather than the 'run to where the character was when the ambush triggered, then stand around' effect I see in missions now.
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
the problem is, people get tired of doing....Defeat X and everyone in the same room as X. Defeat X everyone in the same room as x and find the glowie that happens to be in the same room as X.....and the last variation..... Defeat X everyone in the same room as X and find multiple glowies.....
I dont remember City of HEros being this Tedious..... but then i remember when hazard zones used to be worthwhile....do some hunting there....do a few missions.....now teams only want to do missions since the Xp debt is halved......and everyone counts on dying at heroic because of GDN and Enhancment depreciation....
what was the question again? Oh right, why people insist on Risk vs Reward when Time vs reward is the only truth. It takes time to get to the mission....it takes time to run through the mission to get the glowie..... just like it takes TIME to defeat 3 minions. The risk of 3 minions is small, The reward small....the time for a stealthed mission is small, the reward small......The Devs designed an At that relies on being invisible to do thier job. So now the devs think "Oh, they are avoiding Time/risk because of thier Hide"
Mencia called, Devs....he said "dee dee dee"
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and everyone counts on dying at heroic because of GDN and Enhancment depreciation
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QFR (Quoted for Ridiculousness)
Dying on heroic?! Really? Does ANYONE with a few weeks of experience at this game die on HEROIC?! Please, cut the hyperbole. All my mainly played characters right now (defender, PB and Tank) play on unyielding. And yes, they die occasionally, but significantly less than once/mission. And I am NOT a tremendously skilled player (been here since pre-issue 1 and have one 50).
And stealthing missions is perfectly fine. Yes, you get a bunch of xp, but significantly less than if you'd fought through the mission. The change means you'll usually have to spend an extra few minutes in a mission that you otherwise would have stealthed. That's about it. If you can't handle the few mobs near the glowies, then you have build problems, skill problems or have your reputation set too high.
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The semicolon means that they are two separate effects. They stack.
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I do not read it that way. It think it says you have 2.5% def; and 2.5% def suppresses if you are attacked, just like in the previous part wher it talks about the stealth suppressing. It is not saying that your stealth radius is double then is reduced, it all goes away.
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easy mistake to make. if this is explained elsewhere, please disregard.
You use semi colons in place of commas where a clause in the list would contain a comma:
Apple, New York; Pear, Indiana; Green Pants, France are all places I just made up.
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and everyone counts on dying at heroic because of GDN and Enhancment depreciation
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QFR (Quoted for Ridiculousness)
Dying on heroic?! Really? Does ANYONE with a few weeks of experience at this game die on HEROIC?! Please, cut the hyperbole. All my mainly played characters right now (defender, PB and Tank) play on unyielding. And yes, they die occasionally, but significantly less than once/mission. And I am NOT a tremendously skilled player (been here since pre-issue 1 and have one 50).
And stealthing missions is perfectly fine. Yes, you get a bunch of xp, but significantly less than if you'd fought through the mission. The change means you'll usually have to spend an extra few minutes in a mission that you otherwise would have stealthed. That's about it. If you can't handle the few mobs near the glowies, then you have build problems, skill problems or have your reputation set too high.
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Yes it happens, had it happen in the mayhem mission last niteon VILLIANOUS. I personally didnt die, but my team was dying left and right. I knew the mission would be rough with for me( lvl 12 mm)...I can solo my missions at Vicious but you add extra people in and dynamics change.
Quote that for Truth.....the only one thats Ridiculous is yourself, the only hyperbole is yours and Your limited experiences doesnt equal everyone elses
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Quote that for Truth.....the only one thats Ridiculous is yourself, the only hyperbole is yours and Your limited experiences doesnt equal everyone elses
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Well, just for accuracy, could you point out my hyperbole? And secondly, could you explain how 'limited' my experiences are? Seriously.. how do you have any idea how 'limited' my experiences are? I've played with top of the game types and newbs, and I've seen few players who hang around long enough to learn how their powers have difficulty with heroic. Other than the respec missions, I've never seen any remotely experienced player afraid to go into a mission because it's not set on 'heroic' (or villainous). Since you seem to be a fairly new player and your described experiences are COV related, you might want to be careful how you throw around terms like "limited experiences".
And no, of course my experiences are not the same as everyone else's. Of course, your's are also not the same as anyone else's. So when you make statements like:
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And everyone counts on dying at heroic because of GDN and enhancement depreciation
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you are purporting to know what "everyone's" experiences are. Since you are a) Wrong and b) Obviously incapable of speaking for "everyone" you are clearly exaggerating to make your point, and thus engaging in hyperbole.
Thank you and drive through.
What they dont tell you, and really annoys me, is that if you are on a team and YOU are stealthed and dont do anything to break *your* stealth, but someone else in the team does, then the enemies get to see YOU.
For example, I am stealthed and approach a group of enemies. I dont attack and do not get near enough for them to notice me. Then, a team member shoots an enemy. Now the group of enemies can see and attack MY character, despite me not doing anything to break my stealth. 
That's always irritated me.
Champion Heroes: The Wu Jen Adept(50)/Major Madcap(50)/Panther Ice(43)/Nightshadow Dragon(42)
Champion Villains: Freezing Night(49)/Tactical Widow(44)/Umbral Servant(38)/Mister Mechanical(33)
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Actually, one more quick note. Why should everyone be able to get Stealth anyway? Seems more like an AT or AT Power Set to me. Kinda like Stalkers on COV. After all. How may Stealthy Blasters do you see in the comics? Or Stealthy Tanks for that matter? Some things make more sense if taken in a different context.
Carbide Titan
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Stealthy Blaster = military-style spec-ops sniper.
Stealthy Tanker = ??? I dunno on this one. Possibly Iron Man in his Stealth armor, but Iron Man is totally a tank-mage.