Stealth: we have been mislead
By
Bradd,
Posted on: 2006-06-08 19:35 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Note that the entry lists 2.5% defense plus 2.5% suppressable defense. Also, I would guess that the suppression works the same way as the stalker "Hidden" state: Attacks suppress your stealth, but only after the attack hits. This is useful against creatures that can attack you even while you're hidden; it helps to evade the first shot. That way, you get 2.5% defense all the time and 5% defense against unexpected alpha strikes.
Does not say "plus" There is a semicolon there bud
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Why would anyone choose this power over invisibility?
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Because it's available earlier and it's a prerequisite for Invisibility.
You can also attack with Stealth on, which can be handy if you're trying to sneak up on enemies. You have to turn off Invisibility to attack, and wait for the recharge before becoming Invisible again, while the suppression on Stealth only lasts 10 (?) seconds.
I'll often use Stealth missions with my blasters even after I pick up Invisibility.
I really could care less about the tiny defense bonus from Stealth. It's not enough to help. The concealment is useful, even if it suppresses in fights... or when clicking glowies now.
The semicolon means that they are two separate effects. They stack.
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The semicolon means that they are two separate effects. They stack.
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I do not read it that way. It think it says you have 2.5% def; and 2.5% def suppresses if you are attacked, just like in the previous part wher it talks about the stealth suppressing. It is not saying that your stealth radius is double then is reduced, it all goes away.
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EFFECTS: 35' Stealth radius to critters (this will suppress for 10 seconds if you interact with a clickable object or initiate an attack or are attacked); 389' Stealth radius to players (this will suppress for 10 seconds if you interact with a clickable object or initiate an attack or are attacked); 2.5% Defense; 2.5% Defense (this will suppress for 10 seconds if you interact with a
clickable object or initiate an attack or are attacked); 35% decrease to movement speed.
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Actually, those are all the effects listed consecutively. The power has a 35' stealth radius to critters. The power has a 389' stealth radius to players. The power has a 2.5% defense effect. The power has a 2.5% defense effect that suppresses for 10 seconds if you interact with a clickie, initiate an attack, or are attacked. The power has a 35% decrease to movement.
The semicolons seperate distinct effects. That means there is a 2.5% defense always while the power is on, and a 2.5% defense that is on except in the specific instances which are listed as causing suppression. Rewriting them as I have above is the same, but more verbose. The guide has written it in shorter form to reduce the amount of space necessary to detail the power. It's not written well (meaning clearly), but this has been explained somewhere, somehow by a dev after suppression came out for stealth.
RagManX
"if the market were religion Fulmens would be Moses and you'd be L. Ron Hubbard. " --Nethergoat to eryq2
The economy is not broken. The players are
I stand corrected
RagMan's correct on the syntax, the 2.5% and 2.5% (suppressable) are 2 different atribbutes of the power, and matches the discription in-game (loose half the +def bonus when you attack), but I think the #s may be a bit high since AT modifiers take effect.
BTW: I know it's off topic, but AT modifiers for pool powers seem retarded to me. It's the same power, but it's weaker for the ATs that actualy need to take it for their only deffence.
What people forget and the guide can't explain is that the defense it gives isn't remotely comparable to the -aggro you get from the power. That is worth 10x the paltry defense number.
Minimizing Aggro is the forgotten defense. 
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What people forget and the guide can't explain is that the defense it gives isn't remotely comparable to the -aggro you get from the power. That is worth 10x the paltry defense number.
Minimizing Aggro is the forgotten defense
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Quoted for truth.
Stealth + Snipe = High probability of pulling single minions off of a pack.
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What people forget and the guide can't explain is that the defense it gives isn't remotely comparable to the -aggro you get from the power. That is worth 10x the paltry defense number.
Minimizing Aggro is the forgotten defense
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Quoted for truth.
Stealth + Snipe = High probability of pulling single minions off of a pack.
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Spread the gospel brother Bee!
Here is Statesman's original explanation of stealth and supression from August 2005:
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Basic stealth Powers (Pools, temp powers, and Powers not in a Defense set like Blaster Cloaking Device, Controller Illusion Invisibilities):
Toggles:
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you. You loose half your defense buff (and your PvP stealth) for 10 seconds. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.
Clicks
If you Attack, or are Hit - All enemies will see you. You loose half your defense buff. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.
Primary stealth Powers (Those in a defense set like Dark Armor/Cloak of Darkness, Dark Miasma/Shadow Fall, Storm Summoning/Steamy Mist, Warshade/Shadow Cloak)
Toggles:
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you. (You loose your PvP stealth for 10 seconds). Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change. No Defense is Suppressed
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What was changed in I7:
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Stealth and Phase Shift Powers will suppress (for self buffs or toggles) or cancel (for external buffs) when a player interacts with Interactive Objects, such as Plaques or Mission Objective Objects. Suppression of this type has a duration of 10 seconds.
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As near as I can tell, there was no change to the defense supression - except for primary stealth powers, 1/2 the defense supresses if you attack or are hit. I believe this applies to invisibility as well.
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The semicolon means that they are two separate effects. They stack.
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Correct.
If you're solo it isn't as useful, but if you are squishy and NOT attacking, i.e. buffing teammates, healing teammates, removing status affects from teammates, you get defense from the mobs and you are harder to detect. You give that up when you attack. That's why, for example, I don't take stealth on my blasters, scrappers and tankers.
So if you want the defense, small though it is, use Combat Jumping.
CoH exists because there's a little hero in all of us.
Ridolfo 50 DM DA.
& far too many alts
ALL my blasters have Stealth. It is so very usefull in getting into position for my opening salvo. I can close to my lowest ranged ranged attack, and fire away. I would be seen, attacked, and therefore interupted in my Snipe, rendering it unusable in that fight in stead of my opening move.
Getting that PERFECT position to use my cone weapons, and short range heaveys AFTER my snipe is worth the power.
Dr Tanaka 50 Stone/Stone Tank
Cool MacCool 50 AR/Ice Blaster
Cold MacCool 50 ice/ice Blaster
Alura Darkstone 41 Brute Dark/Stone
Dr Akanat 40 Brute Stone/Stone
and many more
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Correct.
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Toldage.
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Correct.
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Toldage.
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Lameage. We all know why this idiotic change reared it's ugly head. I wasn't misled at all. I knew as soon as Statesman starting talking about it that the pool's utility would be lowered to just above craptastic.
It seems to me stealthing a mission for glowies is no different than getting mission xp from contacts that tell you talk to other contacts or to patrol areas in a city (clicking on phone booths, etc). These types of missions are usually minimum risk to the player too. I guess they're gonna nerf those missions as well?
If theyre so hot to suppress stealth during combat, I'm thinking it's a fair trade to remove the movement penalty while being suppressed. Hey you know
balance and all.
No, I stopped holding my breath a while ago.
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The semicolon means that they are two separate effects. They stack.
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Correct.
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Castle, is anything going to be done to rebalance NPC stealth versus PCs? Right now NPC stealth is far mor powerful as it will totally make you lose targeting on NPCs, yet the NPCs will never lose target on you unless you run away.
It is incredibly agravating that they can continue to follow and fight (waxing my Stalker that I've been tooling with) and yet when I'm hit with smoke grenade or they activate stealth I no longer have a target.
Still here, even after all this time!
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Correct.
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Toldage.
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Lameage. We all know why this idiotic change reared it's ugly head. I wasn't misled at all. I knew as soon as Statesman starting talking about it that the pool's utility would be lowered to just above craptastic.
It seems to me stealthing a mission for glowies is no different than getting mission xp from contacts that tell you talk to other contacts or to patrol areas in a city (clicking on phone booths, etc). These types of missions are usually minimum risk to the player too. I guess they're gonna nerf those missions as well?
If theyre so hot to suppress stealth during combat, I'm thinking it's a fair trade to remove the movement penalty while being suppressed. Hey you know
balance and all.
No, I stopped holding my breath a while ago.
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Sorry about the pyramid, but QFT and amen, brutha! Why is it okay in the Sacred Church of Risk vs. Reward to gain XP by flying through relatively safe zones to click on Contacts or Phone Booths, but not stealthing through an instance full of potential hostiles to click on glowies? Where does that make any sense?
There are other ways to make click-glowie missions more risky for stealthed players, without nerfing Stealth powers. You could add more mobs or ambushes that can see through stealth, like the Rikti Drones. Or you could add ambush triggers to the glowies. But the simplest is probably to add a "defeat boss" or "clear room" component to the click-only missions, as has already been done in most CoV missions. In other words, eliminate the "click-only" aspect, and make them "click-plus-defeat" missions.
But ultimately, stealthing through a glowie-only mission should be considered an alternative, but still valid, method to complete some missions. Why do heroes and villains have to fight their way through everything? Answer: they don't -- and shouldn't. If anything, CoH/V could stand to have more missions that require more creative problem-solving, besides simply "defeat all". But that's a topic for a different thread.
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Why is it okay in the Sacred Church of Risk vs. Reward to gain XP by flying through relatively safe zones to click on Contacts or Phone Booths, but not stealthing through an instance full of potential hostiles to click on glowies? Where does that make any sense?
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Because you do not get XP for clicking on Contacts. (Well, you do for Phone Booths, but there isn't anyone who can't avoid combat doing those) You get XP for doing the mission the Contact sends you to do. So there is STILL a risk involved.
The main thing is, though, this has NOTHING to do with the topic. This thread is about whether or not stealth suppression leaves you with some of the stealth functionality, or none of it. The OP misinterpreted the way the Prima Guide was read, and _Castle_ clarified that; when stealth is suppressed, you lose 1/2 of the defense, not all of it. So you are still getting some benefit for the End cost, albeit small.
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But ultimately, stealthing through a glowie-only mission should be considered an alternative, but still valid, method to complete some missions. Why do heroes and villains have to fight their way through everything? Answer: they don't -- and shouldn't. If anything, CoH/V could stand to have more missions that require more creative problem-solving, besides simply "defeat all". But that's a topic for a different thread.
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Quite correct. Some heroes are made to go in a bash baddies (Tankers & Scrappers), Some Control them to get what they need. Why is Stealthing not a respected alternative. Batman didn't always fight the bad guys. Sometimes he just broke in and got what he needed and left and saved bashing them for a more opportune time...after all we don't all come with fabulous defenses. Of course this could take me off on a rant about the AT system and why it prevents you from imitating certian types of comic book icons...but we won't go there.
Carbide Titan (tanker)
Actually, one more quick note. Why should everyone be able to get Stealth anyway? Seems more like an AT or AT Power Set to me. Kinda like Stalkers on COV. After all. How may Stealthy Blasters do you see in the comics? Or Stealthy Tanks for that matter? Some things make more sense if taken in a different context.
Carbide Titan
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But ultimately, stealthing through a glowie-only mission should be considered an alternative, but still valid, method to complete some missions. Why do heroes and villains have to fight their way through everything? Answer: they don't -- and shouldn't. If anything, CoH/V could stand to have more missions that require more creative problem-solving, besides simply "defeat all". But that's a topic for a different thread.
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Quite correct. Some heroes are made to go in a bash baddies (Tankers & Scrappers), Some Control them to get what they need. Why is Stealthing not a respected alternative. Batman didn't always fight the bad guys. Sometimes he just broke in and got what he needed and left and saved bashing them for a more opportune time...after all we don't all come with fabulous defenses. Of course this could take me off on a rant about the AT system and why it prevents you from imitating certian types of comic book icons...but we won't go there.
Carbide Titan (tanker)
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But as said above: Regardless of the validity of stealthing glowies: It has nothing to do with this topic. This topic is about if you do or do not maintain 2.5% defense after attacking. Topic over... _Castle_ has confirmed you do.
This other topic has its own threads.
I stated earlier that I stand corrected. Thank you Castle for making it official, the text is a bit misleading, I would have said Stealth provides 5% defense that decreases to 2.5% when suppressed.
The "new" Stealth is now a poor choice for a melee toon like my scrapper, Shadow King. It used to be a good choice for more than one reason, now not so much. Now the only reason to keep it is role-play reasons. Ranged attackers and healing defenders can clearly get more milage out of it. ( Heavy sigh), I just remember in beta the discussions and the reasons why stealth was made different than invisbility. and those very good reasons seem to have been thrown out the window.
And it all the fault of the Stalker class, isn't it?
According to the recent Prima guide ALL of the mighty 2.5 defense is suppressed when your attacked, you click a glowie, oir someone attacks you.
Could someone please tell me if it is suppressed how does the def bonus even function and why does the power even have it? Of course, the guide contradicts itself as it says only a portion of the def is supressed. But then goes on to say all of it is suppressed.
I am a little confused how this is supposed to work. You lose the defense if your attacked how is it providing defense?
Here is the quote from the guide.
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POWER HELP TEXT: You blend into your environment and can only be seen at very close range. Even if discovered, you are hard to see and have a bonus to Defense
to all attacks. If, however, you attack while using this power, you will be discovered and will lose your Stealth and some of your Defense bonus. While stealthy, your movement is slowed. Stealth will not work with any other form of
concealment power such as Shadow Fall or Steamy Mist. It has a very low Endurance cost. EFFECTS: 35' Stealth radius to critters (this will suppress for 10 seconds if you interact with a clickable object or initiate an attack or are
attacked); 389' Stealth radius to players (this will suppress for 10 seconds if you interact with a clickable object or initiate an attack or are attacked); 2.5% Defense; 2.5% Defense (this will suppress for 10 seconds if you interact with a
clickable object or initiate an attack or are attacked); 35% decrease to movement speed.
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So as I read this you get a small stealth component, a def component as long as you doing nothing but traveling, but if you are attacked, you lose the def, maintain the movement penalty, end drain continues...
Why would anyone choose this power over invisibility? At least with invisibility if your attacked you keep the defense. You have to turn off invisibility (losing stealth and defense to attack) and in stealth if you attack you lose the stealth. and the def, have a movement penalty and end drain correct?
This sounds like the problem they solved in beta because there was no reason to choose invisbility over stealth, and now there is no good reason to choose stealth over invisibility other than now you have to waste a power pool power to get to invisibility.
This just sucks plain and simple. Why were we mislead on how this power works? I am sure this was nerfed and made a largely worthless power for one reason and one reason only. It stacks with stalker hide and that would be too powerful, so everyone else who used this power for defense is screwed....
Of course someone can also explain why hover's defense doesn't suppress when attacked or attacking???? Are they doing the same thing essentialy? Travel power + defense? Talk about being hypocritical and inconsistent...
I don't know why, but this just ticks me off.....