[ QUOTE ]
OK if you are not from either of the 2 sides, give me a reason where it would be acceptable to not play in SG/VG mode.
[/ QUOTE ]
For one, if the devs had thrown/were throwing more support behind VGs and bases. The sacrifice that I know appeals to you so is an entirely one-sided affair precisely because bases aren't getting their due in the game as it is, not only because bases are overpriced (the gear in it often is), but because we've still got significantly flawed mechanics in it (the skewed rent scheme; the oddness of some advanced gear being purchased as normal, even if the basic version of gear needs to be crafted; the infamous bug that kicks people out of bases, more advanced teleporters, etc.). It's a mechanic with a good concept, but its execution is still iffy. People need more reasons to support their bases, not fewer.
[ QUOTE ]
I say there is a compelling reason for the 6 arcs late in the game. End game content.
[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't a compelling reason to have it be unlocked with infamy, however, which was my issue with it.
[ QUOTE ]
If you play the game as desired and team with people, you will outlevel your contacts before experiencing all the content they have. AT EVERY LEVEL RANGE. I have joined PUGs and watched as we shared missions and at the 35-40 range, hit 40 way before my contacts were spent. There is no lack of content, just a lack of teaming.
[/ QUOTE ]
I joined PUGs. We teamed together frequently. The debt I earned from these PUGs not only prevented this scenario you describe, it also reinforced my opinion that forced teaming isn't a good idea.
[ QUOTE ]
And if you complain you want to play solo, then understand this is an MMORPG, and it's designed to not play solo. These 6 arcs at higher levels give the lvl 50's something to team up and do, rather than just run paper missions.
[/ QUOTE ]
To be certain, but this doesn't justify the infamy badge unlocking it, which is my issue.
[ QUOTE ]
They do? How so?
[/ QUOTE ]
Casual players tend to make up the larger percentage of playerbases in MMOs. *shrugs*
[ QUOTE ]
Ahhh so I must be a casual player than. I play possibly 15 hours a week, and that is at the high end. Prolly an average of 10 is closer. Hmmmmm I seem to be able to have no problem keeping up...
[/ QUOTE ]
So you went from Mr. Big to Midas Touch in <30 hours? Forgive my skepticism, but that seems a little low.
Oh, and again, it's not a matter of "keeping up" - it's a matter that a significant chunk of content, apparently more than is available from any non-kheld contact in the game, is locked. I don't think Master of the Airwaves is a good choice, but neither do I think any of the infamy ones are, either.
[ QUOTE ]
[PERSONAL OPINION] OK. I look down on people who whine and complain. Because I don't play a lot and can still keep up with everyone else. I'm not elitist, I'm hard-wroking. I am devoted. So when someone who plays more than me whines, I think it's only fair to look down at them. It's like a little child throwing a tantrum because something is too hard. That is TRULY how I feel. Put the work in. Play the game or leave. It absolutely upsets me to no end. The complete laziness of it all. Sometimes I truly wish all modern convenience were gone, simply so people would have to work for things again, and not expect things to come on a silver platter.
[/ QUOTE ]
And what upsets me and others, is the automatic assumption that because I complain, you consider it a whine, and take my complaints as a sign that I am lazy and unwilling to work as hard as you.
I'm not lazy. I do work hard. I just think the devs' priorities are skewed on this one.
Neither do I consider myself a whiner. If I had another method of evoking change in this game than shouting into the void that is this forum, I'd vastly prefer it. I don't.
[ QUOTE ]
If you take offense to my opinion. Tough. Grow a backbone.[/PERSONAL OPINION]
[/ QUOTE ]
But if you take offense to others feeling you're elitist, they should stop?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just wish that the Devs would think about changing something in game just because 6 members out of a thousand+ community complain about it. It seems they do not take into account that the silent voices are not complaining.
[/ QUOTE ]
Neither do you take into account the silent voices who didn't support the Midas Touch method. The silent majority's silence means we cannot assume them to be of either side. Similarly, you're not considering the possibility that the devs changed their minds not because we complained, but because they agreed with our reasons for complaining.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
While your second point has merit, and could possibly be the reason, your first point, well, this is not a vote. if we had a poll, then yes, the silent majority is just that, silent.
[/ QUOTE ]
My first point was made to refute yours - you were complaining that the devs were paying attention to a minority that spoke up.
[ QUOTE ]
Democracies themselves have the same problem. But this is not a vote. This is a forum where 6 or so members complained out of thousands.
[/ QUOTE ]
And fewer still spoke out in support.
[ QUOTE ]
If a complaint is founded, put it to a vote rather than just cater to the few complainers in the hopes to stifle them.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't recall any votes at all on the game's mechanics, only in flavor terms. Voting on mechanics is something that's, at best, going to cause further complaints when the devs make mechanics changes without them.
[ QUOTE ]
All it did was get people to change over the why deathless is stupid and should be changed.
[/ QUOTE ]
It also changed the format of this debate, and shifted attention to another concern. I'm not particularly happy with Deathless myself, but I'm more concerned with the accolades that are presumably in the game but we haven't uncovered. If the anti-Deathless crowd can persuade the devs, more power to them. If not, no big. OTOH, if the devs were to replace Deathless with, say, The Mongoose, there's a problem.
[ QUOTE ]
But since no vote was called it looks like your second point, would be the best possibility. They simply listened and agreed with your arguments.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is why I tend to be of a mind that, regardless of how you and H&R feel about the opposing side of this argument, dismissing/ignoring our arguments without comment, calling us whiners, etc., is a bad call on your part - it doesn't just put off other players without need, it also puts down the devs while you're trying to persuade them. It's not exactly a good mix.
Okay, to repeat an oft-requested point...
Some of you like infamy as a reward, and think it fits with the TV's concept.
Why is it that someone who's earned infamous reputations would sit down and be blindly led around by a TV? It'd seem to me these sorts of people wouldn't have time for telly.
No point arguing. You rebut every argument with the same argument, and when we rebut that, you use it again.
Switching Topics:
Why is Deathless a good idea for the High pain Threshold Accolade:
1) If you don't have Deathless, obviously you haven't died a lot. Why would you need more hit points. You obviously don't need them to stay alive.
2) In order to have a 'High Pain Threshold' you kinda have to experience pain. Now a debt badge or a damage taken badge would be appropriate for this requirement. But if you take into account #1, it makes more sense to require a debt badge not a damage taken badge
3) Debt is neutral, and it's a lot easier for any AT to earn and pay off debt then to earn and pay off dmg taken. This is the easy road. They could have made is 100 million dmg taken. For reflex stalkers or brutes, or even MM's taking dmg can be tricky.
4) Why the 4th debt badge? This is 2 million Debt. It's not a lot folks. It is 100% attainable through casual play and requires no farming. I know my hero had all 6 debt badges without trying. Would I be adverse to this going to the 1 million version. No. any lower, though, is too easy. Also this enforces a level requirement.
5) Why a level limit? For one, have +10% HP from level 2 is unbalancing. Also, the hero equivalent has an enforce level requirement of Terra Volta. Without Deathless, as far as we know the badge has no level limit. Deathless ensures the villian earns the accolade as close to when the heroes would.
[ QUOTE ]
No point arguing. You rebut every argument with the same argument, and when we rebut that, you use it again.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure which side of the arguement this is more appropriate for.
so yeah.... getting to Deathless...
[ QUOTE ]
1) If you don't have Deathless, obviously you haven't died a lot. Why would you need more hit points. You obviously don't need them to stay alive.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have a number of counter arguments for that.
You could be in need of the HP for PvP, even though you don't die often in PvE.
Not everyone dies, some people run. If you have more HP, you can hang in combat a little longer, run less often, or simply rest less often. You can need the HP in this case but not have the debt.
Controllers don't need a Crey Freeze Gun, but they get it anyways. No character should be told what he does and does not "need" to equip with.
Many people just like getting rewards, be it extra powers or badges. They like earning things. They may not even be completists, just having things unlock in a game is fun. Why deny that fun to the players who are considered to play the game successfully?
OK, I did a search and nothing came up in the test forums - does anyone know if Caleb is properly rewarding his badge now?
Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
[ QUOTE ]
No point arguing. You rebut every argument with the same argument, and when we rebut that, you use it again.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with you here, Ewok. The feeling I've gotten is the only argument I get is some obscure reference to one already had and to be accused of something I didn't do. Then to be told I'm lying because I'm clearly ignoring their post of exactly when and where I said the rude item.
The forums are clearly not polite and friendly, when you try to have a reasonable discussion to be called Elitist just because you post, by someone who doesn't know you and told you are lying and ignoring them, when you clearly aren't.
You know, I have a better idea.
[ QUOTE ]
so yeah.... getting to Deathless...
[ QUOTE ]
1) If you don't have Deathless, obviously you haven't died a lot. Why would you need more hit points. You obviously don't need them to stay alive.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have a number of counter arguments for that.
You could be in need of the HP for PvP, even though you don't die often in PvE.
[/ QUOTE ]
I knew this argument would come up. My answer. Add debt for PvP kills. I never had a problem with this, and it rewards those PvPer that stay alive with something, rather than giving no incentive to not run headfirst without caring.
[ QUOTE ]
Not everyone dies, some people run. If you have more HP, you can hang in combat a little longer, run less often, or simply rest less often. You can need the HP in this case but not have the debt.
[/ QUOTE ]
You can WANT the HP in that case, not need. You need them when you die often. You just want to go a little further without resting or running, but survive you still do.
[ QUOTE ]
Controllers don't need a Crey Freeze Gun, but they get it anyways. No character should be told what he does and does not "need" to equip with.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're right. I fail to see the point.
[ QUOTE ]
Many people just like getting rewards, be it extra powers or badges. They like earning things. They may not even be completists, just having things unlock in a game is fun. Why deny that fun to the players who are considered to play the game successfully?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because it makes sense. In roleplaying, GM's won't allow my characters to take inherent DR or extra HP unless I have earned in a manner that fits that. Taking lots of dmg or whatnot. There is no other badge that gives a level limit, that matches this power. Damage taken can be earned at level 2, if sidekicked. If you want the badge, 'unlock' that part of the game called death and debt for a change. Try being reckless! It can be fun, even if you get debt afterwards. Most of all, if you want extra powers above and beyond the norm, expect to work for them, and paying off debt is work, even if it's only a lousy 2 mil.
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you here, Ewok. The feeling I've gotten is the only argument I get is some obscure reference to one already had and to be accused of something I didn't do. Then to be told I'm lying because I'm clearly ignoring their post of exactly when and where I said the rude item.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Just play the game. How difficult is that?"
That is a tone I and others find condescending.
[/ QUOTE ]
*plunk!*
*plunk!*
Anyone able and willing to debate the change without ignoring counter-points, or indulging in ad hominems or strawmen?
[ QUOTE ]
OK, I did a search and nothing came up in the test forums - does anyone know if Caleb is properly rewarding his badge now?
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you might be confusing Caleb with Baphomet, who supposedly is awarding properly on defeat with the latest patch.
If we get experience for badges now, will we get experience from badges already attained before Issue 7?
[ QUOTE ]
If we get experience for badges now, will we get experience from badges already attained before Issue 7?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's only exploration badges, and I don't think it's very likely. I didn't get awarded a mess of XP when I transferred over to test.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you here, Ewok. The feeling I've gotten is the only argument I get is some obscure reference to one already had and to be accused of something I didn't do. Then to be told I'm lying because I'm clearly ignoring their post of exactly when and where I said the rude item.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Just play the game. How difficult is that?"
That is a tone I and others find condescending.
[/ QUOTE ]
*plunk!*
*plunk!*
Anyone able and willing to debate the change without ignoring counter-points, or indulging in ad hominems or strawmen?
[/ QUOTE ]
------------------
[ QUOTE ]
H&R, if simple civility cannot compell you to answer counterarguments or behave in a respectful manner, consider for a moment that your present behavior is not doing you any favors.
[/ QUOTE ]
---------------------
That would have been 3 posts into the I am rude statement you initially made (posted immediately above). Thus if you berate people long enough you'll eventually get them to say something you can actually use. But again, my point is not to be rude, but to say that all I do is play the game and I say there is no problem with earning prestige vs infamy. You say there is, but don't explain how it is hard other than to say you have to leave SG/VG mode.
I believe you are reading tone into my statements where none is, until after I was being attacked by you and that did color my attitude. So please stop the accusations, and continue with actual discussions.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you here, Ewok. The feeling I've gotten is the only argument I get is some obscure reference to one already had and to be accused of something I didn't do. Then to be told I'm lying because I'm clearly ignoring their post of exactly when and where I said the rude item.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Just play the game. How difficult is that?"
That is a tone I and others find condescending.
[/ QUOTE ]
*plunk!*
*plunk!*
Anyone able and willing to debate the change without ignoring counter-points, or indulging in ad hominems or strawmen?
[/ QUOTE ]
And maybe possibly less hipocracry, since remarks about elitism obviously had something to do with the infamy vs. prestige subject.
Also when your point and counter-point is nothing but the desire not to leave SG mode, because of hurting prestige earning for SG's, it gets a little repetitive. We've rebutted that, only to here the same argument again.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK, I did a search and nothing came up in the test forums - does anyone know if Caleb is properly rewarding his badge now?
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you might be confusing Caleb with Baphomet, who supposedly is awarding properly on defeat with the latest patch.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope, separate question entirely. I noticed (or *thought* I noticed, I can't seem to find it now) that there is a badge listed at the various sites for killing Caleb. I have killed Caleb, and none of the teams participating got a badge. So I was just wondering if anyone knew if this was fixed on test ...or heck maybe we just had a fluke bug on live?
Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
Hmmm, I know of a group that didn't get it, but it was clear that out of two groups fighting they didn't do 25% of the damage against him. I fought him with someone about Month ago so that they could get badge and they did, what timeframe did you do it, also what server, if you are on Guardian, holler, if I'm on (usually am and on hide) I'll be happy to try to assist.
According to the Prima Guide:
We should have Born in Battle accolade.
Yet it is not being awarded.
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, I know of a group that didn't get it, but it was clear that out of two groups fighting they didn't do 25% of the damage against him. I fought him with someone about Month ago so that they could get badge and they did, what timeframe did you do it, also what server, if you are on Guardian, holler, if I'm on (usually am and on hide) I'll be happy to try to assist.
[/ QUOTE ]
It was on Pinnacle within the last month. There were 3 groups who killed him, and everyone complained of not getting the badge. 
No worries, I'll get around to trying it again eventually.
Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
How does a villain earn the Annihilator badge? The PRIMA guide lists it as a prerequisite for the Marshall accolade.
Badge-Hunter.com does not even list the Accolade.
Thanks for your help.
[ QUOTE ]
How does a villain earn the Annihilator badge? The PRIMA guide lists it as a prerequisite for the Marshall accolade.
Badge-Hunter.com does not even list the Accolade.
Thanks for your help.
[/ QUOTE ]
Seeing as the Prima guide supposedly lists every badge in the game and makes no other reference to Annihilator, this would seem to be an oversight.
There's also a Bow Breaker reference for Force of Nature that is unexplained.
In general, I liked the badges in Recluse's Victory.... however...
I didn't like the pillbox one. The way it works does not reward the people who actually win the pillbox, but the person that manages to rush in first (this could be someone else entirely who did no work). Couldn't this be based on percentage damage to all of the guns? Or place some sort of central thing we zap after the guns, and percentage damage of that thing. Let more people share in the reward of the pillbox kill. The zone encourages large groups of teams to work together to take over the pillboxes, so let them all be rewarded with the badges.
I helped take over 20-30 pillboxes with my team, but because I was more focused on genuinely helping take them out, and not rushing in, I have nothing towards the pillbox badges. It doesn't seem like the way it should be.
[ QUOTE ]
In general, I liked the badges in Recluse's Victory.... however...
I didn't like the pillbox one. The way it works does not reward the people who actually win the pillbox, but the person that manages to rush in first (this could be someone else entirely who did no work). Couldn't this be based on percentage damage to all of the guns? Or place some sort of central thing we zap after the guns, and percentage damage of that thing. Let more people share in the reward of the pillbox kill. The zone encourages large groups of teams to work together to take over the pillboxes, so let them all be rewarded with the badges.
I helped take over 20-30 pillboxes with my team, but because I was more focused on genuinely helping take them out, and not rushing in, I have nothing towards the pillbox badges. It doesn't seem like the way it should be.
[/ QUOTE ]
I do agree with you there. For a game that promotes teaming, both the pillbox badge and the heavies badge promotes solo play. Personally it does make sense that teams should be awarded credit for both, as even with heavies controlling and protecting the heavy is a team effort. And vs those AV's, they don't last long. It may be a code thing more than anything.
But as it is they are solo. Good for us is that the numbers for the third badges are bugged, as they added an extra 0 in the code (much like with sally). Still solo or team credit, the badges will be earned!
[ QUOTE ]
In general, I liked the badges in Recluse's Victory.... however...
I didn't like the pillbox one. The way it works does not reward the people who actually win the pillbox, but the person that manages to rush in first (this could be someone else entirely who did no work). Couldn't this be based on percentage damage to all of the guns? Or place some sort of central thing we zap after the guns, and percentage damage of that thing. Let more people share in the reward of the pillbox kill. The zone encourages large groups of teams to work together to take over the pillboxes, so let them all be rewarded with the badges.
I helped take over 20-30 pillboxes with my team, but because I was more focused on genuinely helping take them out, and not rushing in, I have nothing towards the pillbox badges. It doesn't seem like the way it should be.
[/ QUOTE ]
I didnt realize this untill today.. I was wonderin why i never got the badge for 10 afther taking down several dozen with teams.. I guess, i'll just have to join the "campers" in the middle!
Has anyone gotten Demonic yet? I have the three badges listed as known requirements, and it hasn't been awarded. I petitioned it and was told I didn't have all the requirements, so I'm wondering just what's going on here.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How does a villain earn the Annihilator badge? The PRIMA guide lists it as a prerequisite for the Marshall accolade.
Badge-Hunter.com does not even list the Accolade.
Thanks for your help.
[/ QUOTE ]
Seeing as the Prima guide supposedly lists every badge in the game and makes no other reference to Annihilator, this would seem to be an oversight.
There's also a Bow Breaker reference for Force of Nature that is unexplained.
[/ QUOTE ]
Positron recently posted that in the next build of the game, defeating the "Future Freedom Force" during the Lord Recluse Task Force will award the Annihilator badge.
Bow Breaker sounds like a reward for defeating Longbow ambushes during the Mayhem missions, but I haven't seen any other references to it besides the guide.
T
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Opinions in general are very hard to change. To change an opinion usually requires some sort of undisputable fact. Nobody is bringing that to the table. Mostly because there is this feeling that since it's not true for me, then it should be fixed.
[/ QUOTE ]
*shrugs* Neither side's particularly true for me. I'm trying to look at what I consider to be a bigger picture here - that there's no compelling reason for a six arc, badge-yielding contact to be limited thus, including story reasons. There are portions of the game (both sides) that could use those arcs, and the accolades for villains seem to be awarded late compared to the heroes (though, admittedly, this is a PvP issue and the TV's accolade is comparatively minor). Yes, I'm intending to get Midas Touch anyway, one way or another, and I already have Mr. Big. OTOH, the additional hitch to an infamy badge is that it requires forsaking the VG for a time, when the devs should be giving people more reason to run in VG mode, not less. I remember when people complained loudly about the devs lowering the requirement for Zookeeper from 10K monkeys to 1K - I was just glad nobody else would have to go through the tedium I did.
At the end of the day, however, the devs are the only ones who make the decision, and in absence of them making their reasonings known, we have only the discussions in this thread and similar.[/quot]
OK if you are not from either of the 2 sides, give me a reason where it would be acceptable to not play in SG/VG mode.
I say there is a compelling reason for the 6 arcs late in the game. End game content. If you play the game as desired and team with people, you will outlevel your contacts before experiencing all the content they have. AT EVERY LEVEL RANGE. I have joined PUGs and watched as we shared missions and at the 35-40 range, hit 40 way before my contacts were spent. There is no lack of content, just a lack of teaming. And if you complain you want to play solo, then understand this is an MMORPG, and it's designed to not play solo. These 6 arcs at higher levels give the lvl 50's something to team up and do, rather than just run paper missions.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To generalize 'Well I don't have time to join Hami Raids, so HO's should be nerfed.' 'Well I don't have time to earn infamy, so the badge should be changed.' But the devs have sided with the casual player everytime an issue like this has come up.
[/ QUOTE ]
Rather because they have to - the casual players tend to be the ones who keep MMOs afloat.
[/ QUOTE ]
They do? How so?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really have no clue what makes a casual player vs. a hard-core player.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's generally viewed as a matter of how much time a week you play (in which case, I'm hard core, often clocking in 5+ hours a day), or how much time you spend advancing yourself in game (in which case, I'm casual, since I prefer RP).
[/ QUOTE ]
Ahhh so I must be a casual player than. I play possibly 15 hours a week, and that is at the high end. Prolly an average of 10 is closer. Hmmmmm I seem to be able to have no problem keeping up...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They call people from #2 elitists, and call us hard-core and the like. I like to think of us as hard-workers. I hate the term elitist as it's derrogatory and an insult.
[/ QUOTE ]
If, however, someone's looking down on others, the elitism tag's not being unfairly awarded. When a hard core player condescends to casual players, when he calls them whiners, then he's being elitist in many players' opinions.
[/ QUOTE ]
[PERSONAL OPINION] OK. I look down on people who whine and complain. Because I don't play a lot and can still keep up with everyone else. I'm not elitist, I'm hard-wroking. I am devoted. So when someone who plays more than me whines, I think it's only fair to look down at them. It's like a little child throwing a tantrum because something is too hard. That is TRULY how I feel. Put the work in. Play the game or leave. It absolutely upsets me to no end. The complete laziness of it all. Sometimes I truly wish all modern convenience were gone, simply so people would have to work for things again, and not expect things to come on a silver platter.
If you take offense to my opinion. Tough. Grow a backbone.[/PERSONAL OPINION]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just wish that the Devs would think about changing something in game just because 6 members out of a thousand+ community complain about it. It seems they do not take into account that the silent voices are not complaining.
[/ QUOTE ]
Neither do you take into account the silent voices who didn't support the Midas Touch method. The silent majority's silence means we cannot assume them to be of either side. Similarly, you're not considering the possibility that the devs changed their minds not because we complained, but because they agreed with our reasons for complaining.
[/ QUOTE ]
While your second point has merit, and could possibly be the reason, your first point, well, this is not a vote. if we had a poll, then yes, the silent majority is just that, silent. Democracies themselves have the same problem. But this is not a vote. This is a forum where 6 or so members complained out of thousands. If a complaint is founded, put it to a vote rather than just cater to the few complainers in the hopes to stifle them. All it did was get people to change over the why deathless is stupid and should be changed. But since no vote was called it looks like your second point, would be the best possibility. They simply listened and agreed with your arguments.