Essentially, "Taunt" is a whole separate system that overrides the normal rules of aggro, subverting the NPC AI. In other words: mind control.
(Except, of course, for "feeling", which is hazy and, apparently, under-represented outside of Burn and fighting very grey enemies.)
great guide, and one I think illustrates taunt is still a very useful tool along with puncvoke, not at all made obselete. (something I see every single time I play my tanki.)
I have long meant to write a brief guide on tanki and scrappi taunt, their differences, and most especially tactical and strategy uses, as they can be used for more than just simple aggro.
great work!
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(Except, of course, for "feeling", which is hazy and, apparently, under-represented outside of Burn and fighting very grey enemies.)
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It's also represented in a few other powers. Freezing Rain, for example, or Blizzard. Lots of patch damages seem to express it. It, or something like it, can also be expressed when attacking enemies in a way so that they can't fight back for 10 seconds (ie : slows on enemies with few powers, staying at range).
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It's also represented in a few other powers. Freezing Rain, for example, or Blizzard. Lots of patch damages seem to express it. It, or something like it, can also be expressed when attacking enemies in a way so that they can't fight back for 10 seconds (ie : slows on enemies with few powers, staying at range).
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Right. Tar Patch comes to mind.
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(Except, of course, for "feeling", which is hazy and, apparently, under-represented outside of Burn and fighting very grey enemies.)
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It's also represented in a few other powers. Freezing Rain, for example, or Blizzard. Lots of patch damages seem to express it. It, or something like it, can also be expressed when attacking enemies in a way so that they can't fight back for 10 seconds (ie : slows on enemies with few powers, staying at range).
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True. Though, really, that's only addressing my sidenote. I think the fact that Taunt wholly overrides anything but Burn, Rain of X powers and whatever else is a serious flaw in its design and what makes aggro management (in my opinion) far too simplistic to be fun.
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4) Taunt, the effect, is not the same system as Hate. Quoted because Hate doesnt even exist as a system; its really a formula that is a combination of Threat Rating, Damage, and Healing.
5) Taunt, the effect, will always override Hate.
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I am happy to have something to point to in response to claims that blasters can easily steal aggro from tankers.
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4) Taunt, the effect, is not the same system as Hate. Quoted because Hate doesnt even exist as a system; its really a formula that is a combination of Threat Rating, Damage, and Healing.
5) Taunt, the effect, will always override Hate.
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I am happy to have something to point to in response to claims that blasters can easily steal aggro from tankers.
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It sounds like that if a Tanker just taunted a group of 5 (does not matter the means of the taunt) and all 5 are 'taunted', then a Blaster should be able to AoE them all to 1 hit point left of life in 1-shot and the Tanker still keeps aggro. Is that right?
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4) Taunt, the effect, is not the same system as Hate. Quoted because Hate doesnt even exist as a system; its really a formula that is a combination of Threat Rating, Damage, and Healing.
5) Taunt, the effect, will always override Hate.
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I am happy to have something to point to in response to claims that blasters can easily steal aggro from tankers.
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It sounds like that if a Tanker just taunted a group of 5 (does not matter the means of the taunt) and all 5 are 'taunted', then a Blaster should be able to AoE them all to 1 hit point left of life in 1-shot and the Tanker still keeps aggro. Is that right?
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Yes.
This is how it's worked for me when tanking or blasting, too. Stuff that isn't taunted is easy to piss off. Stuff that is taunted keeps hitting the tanker until taunt wears off.
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This is how it's worked for me when tanking or blasting, too. Stuff that isn't taunted is easy to piss off. Stuff that is taunted keeps hitting the tanker until taunt wears off.
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I have noticed more than once the last few weeks now that I am actively playing my tank where I have had a small mob aggro'd via punchvoke and aura, the blaster or PB starts gettting attacked anyway in retaliation to a blast (not an AOE even) and when I taunt they then stay on me....go figure....
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This is how it's worked for me when tanking or blasting, too. Stuff that isn't taunted is easy to piss off. Stuff that is taunted keeps hitting the tanker until taunt wears off.
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I have noticed more than once the last few weeks now that I am actively playing my tank where I have had a small mob aggro'd via punchvoke and aura, the blaster or PB starts gettting attacked anyway in retaliation to a blast (not an AOE even) and when I taunt they then stay on me....go figure....
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That could be a duration issue. Taunt-effect's duration can be extended with Taunt Enhancements. If you are using a slow activation/recharge attack for the taunt-effect (or aura misses), the taunt'effect's duration may end before your next attack.
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This is how it's worked for me when tanking or blasting, too. Stuff that isn't taunted is easy to piss off. Stuff that is taunted keeps hitting the tanker until taunt wears off.
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I have noticed more than once the last few weeks now that I am actively playing my tank where I have had a small mob aggro'd via punchvoke and aura, the blaster or PB starts gettting attacked anyway in retaliation to a blast (not an AOE even) and when I taunt they then stay on me....go figure....
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That could be a duration issue. Taunt-effect's duration can be extended with Taunt Enhancements. If you are using a slow activation/recharge attack for the taunt-effect (or aura misses), the taunt'effect's duration may end before your next attack.
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my aura (mud pots) and my aoe both have taunt duration in them, as do my taunt - so not sure...may have to do some more scientific testing - but I constantly see stuff that just seems that taunt holds aggro better than mudpots, etc.
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This is how it's worked for me when tanking or blasting, too. Stuff that isn't taunted is easy to piss off. Stuff that is taunted keeps hitting the tanker until taunt wears off.
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I have noticed more than once the last few weeks now that I am actively playing my tank where I have had a small mob aggro'd via punchvoke and aura, the blaster or PB starts gettting attacked anyway in retaliation to a blast (not an AOE even) and when I taunt they then stay on me....go figure....
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That could be a duration issue. Taunt-effect's duration can be extended with Taunt Enhancements. If you are using a slow activation/recharge attack for the taunt-effect (or aura misses), the taunt'effect's duration may end before your next attack.
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my aura (mud pots) and my aoe both have taunt duration in them, as do my taunt - so not sure...may have to do some more scientific testing - but I constantly see stuff that just seems that taunt holds aggro better than mudpots, etc.
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Something to bear in mind, is that our Taunt Auras have a maximum number of target they will affect. And it's not a continous effect, they pulse at a certain rate. So you can have NPCs there are within the AoE of Mudpots but not taunted. Those NPCs aggro can be drawn to a Blaster that does damage to them.
I've been playing Tankers since the 2nd Wave in the CoH Beta. I have never ever seen an NPC under taunt aggro on anyone but my Tankers. Every case I've seen of a Blaster or other player "drawing aggro from Tanker" is the NPC not being taunted. I've seen NPCs blasted to a sliver Health by a teammate go running by my Tanker. The NPC always stop and turn their attention to my Tanker.
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Every case I've seen of a Blaster or other player "drawing aggro from Tanker" is the NPC not being taunted. I've seen NPCs blasted to a sliver Health by a teammate go running by my Tanker. The NPC always stop and turn their attention to my Tanker.
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It's because you're pretty.
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Right. Tar Patch comes to mind.
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Tar Patch does not cause this effect, because it does no damage, and thus the villains do not fear it.
Only damage and knock* location AoEs seem to trigger it by themselves. Debuff AoEs will cause some scatter, but this will be overridden by the next enemy attack phase, nevermind aggro tools like Taunt or Guantlet attacks.
Foo, "Feeling" doesn't really override Taunt, not anymore than Confuse does, or the old "Fear" did. It's just a status effect - no other target suddenly becomes more important than the Tanker, the enemy just can no longer stand near the tanker to attack him/her.
It is strange to me that Burn doesn't have Gauntlet or a Taunt effect. At the very least, putting it in would allow the power to be used to 'blockade' certain sections of the area, without overriding "Feeling".
And, yes, a more complicated system, like Taunt being a temporary or even permanent source of 'percieved' damage, would probably be more interesting to players. However, given that the game's mechanic places a very high value on the distance metric in aggro calculations, such a change may not be percievable.
Oh great. One less excuse to not take Taunt on my Stone/Stone Tanker...
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Right. Tar Patch comes to mind.
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Tar Patch does not cause this effect, because it does no damage, and thus the villains do not fear it.
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Foes running away is caused by more than fear from damage. When they are prevented from attacking for a set amount of time (and they really want to), they decide it's best to run away and try again later. Sometimes, they run so far they lose agro (Tar Patch certainly does cause agro on the Hate/Threat scale) in which case, they simply walk back to their spawn points.
Tar Patch causes this effect if they need to run in for melee or run out for ranged attacks and the Patch is keeping them from doing it. Also, putting them in a Patch and remaining out of Line of Sight will also cause this 'feeling' of frustration and make them run away.
After 90 levels of Tar Patch, I can assure you it certainly can cause 'feelings' of flight.
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Tar Patch does not cause this effect, because it does no damage, and thus the villains do not fear it.
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You're wrong, it does, but only on certain specific mobs - Fire Thorn Casters come to mind.
Tested : an attack against a Fire Thorn Caster got him to turn around, throw Flares, and stay in the debuff patch.
Comparatively, I couldn't get a DE Boulder to stop moving and stay inside Freezing Rain for any length of time longer than his attack animations.
They appear to react significantly differently, and thus, we can not assume that they are the same mechanic. Obviously, the 10 seconds of no available attacks will overrule this and cause 'feeling', of course.
Circ (and others),
27) Brute Attacks do Taunt.
This may be correct, but I wonder why Brutes get Tanker inherent (I'm assuming that it is a version of Gauntlet that is producing the Taunt effect) as well as their own Brute inherent. How is this right? Do Brutes also get a psuedo-Gauntlet to Pool Power attacks? Auras that cause Taunt effects? This does not seem good to me. No wonder Tankers are so hard to find anymore.
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Circ (and others),
27) Brute Attacks do Taunt.
This may be correct, but I wonder why Brutes get Tanker inherent (I'm assuming that it is a version of Gauntlet that is producing the Taunt effect) as well as their own Brute inherent.
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well, i believe Brute "gauntlette" is single target, not an AoE, so there is a difference between the two.
of course, once you have an Aura and Taunt (or Provoke), its not like you need a boatload of aggro to hit the cap, so single-target "gauntlette" might end up being just as effective in the long run.
Nice Guide -- I learned a lot!
I saw in another thread a statement that Gauntlet only works on single target attacks. I presume that this is incorrect, and that my Invul/Axe's Whirling Axe produces Gauntlet-taunt. (I hope a lot, as the damage is not impressive.) Is that correct?
The same would apply to cone-type tanker powers?
Thanks!
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4) Taunt, the effect, is not the same system as Hate. Quoted because Hate doesnt even exist as a system; its really a formula that is a combination of Threat Rating, Damage, and Healing.
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Do you have any more details or conjecture on how "hate" aggro works? I've certainly seen damage, but didn't realise healing teammates was involved. Is the threat rating a result of the effectiveness of your powers changing with relative combat level from the target, or is there something else involved?
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Threat Rating appears to include archetype (enemies will attempt to kill Defenders, Controllers, and Blasters first in that order, before moving onto Tankers and Scrappers, if all other metrics are equal), distance from the enemy (enemies don't like running thirty feet if someone's close by), and level (lower level characters make nicer targets).
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Circ (and others),
27) Brute Attacks do Taunt.
This may be correct, but I wonder why Brutes get Tanker inherent (I'm assuming that it is a version of Gauntlet that is producing the Taunt effect) as well as their own Brute inherent.
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well, i believe Brute "gauntlette" is single target, not an AoE, so there is a difference between the two.
of course, once you have an Aura and Taunt (or Provoke), its not like you need a boatload of aggro to hit the cap, so single-target "gauntlette" might end up being just as effective in the long run.
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yeah this is a problem, one which the answer is to make tanks have more to there inherint (imho) rather then do the reverse and take this away from brutes.
I play both and to me the problem overall is tanks need a more exciting, better play purpose in the game.
Well, I probably should have gotten my act together and posted this sooner, but my time was sort of tight a few months back when I first gathered all this information together.
I want to thank all those who helped me behind the scenes, you know who you are, and no I'm not going to list you all, except for Liquid who sort of pushed me into doing this. We got into a discussion where we realized there were a lot of questions that we really didnt know the answers to. So we formulated a list of questions, and I set out getting them answered.
Yes, much of this information comes from me pestering the devs.
If you see anything in game that conflicts, consider it a bug at this point, report it, and complain vehemently on the forums. Please.
And, finally, please, ask any other questions about Taunt/Gauntlet that need answering here, Ill be PMing appropriately to keep some eyes on this thread.
*****
The following is a list of things you either knew, or did not know, about Taunt/Gauntlet:
1) Taunt, the effect, is not binary (on or off), it has a Magnitude.
2) Taunt, the effect, has Duration.
3) Taunt, the effect, has an Area of Effect (AoE).
4) Taunt, the effect, is not the same system as Hate. Quoted because Hate doesnt even exist as a system; its really a formula that is a combination of Threat Rating, Damage, and Healing.
5) Taunt, the effect, will always override Hate.
6) Taunt, the power, has a fixed Magnitude.
7) Gauntlet has a fixed Magnitude.
8) Taunt Auras all have a fixed Magnitude, but that Magnitude varies from power to power, some powers, like Chilling Embrace, simply are stronger.
9) Gauntlet is a Taunt.
10) The Magnitudes of Taunt effects stack differently than other effects in game. Instead they stack from the same source (but not the same power), and do not stack from different sources.
11) The Gauntlet buff icon is a placebo; there is no real power behind it. The effects of Gauntlet are built into each power.
12) The AoE for Taunt, the power, is 15
13) Duration and AoE for Gauntlet are hard coded but vary from power to power using the End costs and/or Levels (Tier) of the powers as a guideline, but not a hard and fast rule because there are exceptions. Example: Total Focus has a radius that is 50% larger than Energy Transfer.
14) The AoE for Gauntlet ranges from an 8' to 15' radius depending on the power its built into, but is mostly, 8', and never more than 15'.
15) The Duration of a Taunt effect scales with level, its the maximum thats hard coded.
16) Gauntlet is a Taunt effect; its just lower duration than the power Taunt.
17) Damage done does not affect a Taunt effects effectiveness at any time, ever, not Duration, not AoE, and not Magnitude.
18) Pool Power attacks all use Gauntlet.
19) Some Temp Power attacks use Gauntlet, some dont. The older the Temp Power attack, the more likely it is to use Gauntlet. If a power does one Inherent effect (say Critical Hit) and not another (say Gauntlet) then report it as a bug, otherwise assume its intentional.
20) Epic Pool attack powers all use Gauntlet.
21) All Tanker attack powers have Gauntlet.
22) An Aura/AoE in a Tanker Defensive set does not have Gauntlet, but does have a built in Taunt in addition to its other effects. These are: Blazing Aura, Consume, Combustion, Rise of the Phoenix, Chilling Embrace, Icicles, Energy Absorption, Invincibility, and Mud Pots.
23) The exception to #22 is Burn which does not Taunt, and does not have Gauntlet.
23) The AoE of Taunt Auras are the same as their power radius.
24) Taunt Duration has a hard cap; its slightly higher than what a level 50 Tanker with 6 Taunt SOs can achieve.
25) Taunt Durations do not stack in an additive manner. They sort of overlap for purposes of determining whos in charge (see next entry).
26) Taunting works on a priority FIFO (First In First Out; add to the head, remove from the tail, tail is in charge) basis with tail replacement. The current Taunter is the FIFO tail, and they will loose control under the following circumstances: they no longer have an active Taunt, OR the remaining Duration of another Taunter in line is twice the current Taunters remaining Duration.
27) Brute Attacks do Taunt.
28) Magnitude is basically ignored otherwise, it is only used to determine if something is or is not Taunted. As in, if there is a magnitude of Taunt on the target, then the target is Taunted.
29) Taunt does not change the agro limit (17 targets). Any targets that are over Taunted beyond the agro limit should cease to be Taunted. [/b]Any other behavior is a bug (.e.g., the conga line of stupidity).[/b]
30) The FIFO (#26) is checked every activation period of the individual powers, meaning that its checked on a power by power basis with respect to the individuals controlling or vying for Taunt control.
31) Tanker attacks still cause normal agro in addition to Taunting.
32) The fear effect of a power like Burn is referred to as Feeling. This is a system or calculation that can overcome Taunt. In other words, things run, because they're scared.