Question regarding Hero Images
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So in other words, short version, Cryptic "owns" every single character name on *every* single server now created by players?
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Yes.
And we all knew this when we created our characters in their game.
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The name, image, powers, situations and actions of a character as portrayed in your novel are yours.
The name, image, powers, situations and actions of a character as portrayed in (or created using the tools of) CoX belong to CoX.
If both are identical, CoX wins. Unless you had a previous copyright/trademark, you have just 'gifted' NCSoft with your creation.
If you had a previous legal claim, by terms of your tacit agreement with the EULA, CoX still wins. They own your character until you point out to them that you have a previous claim.
When they become aware that they have your copywrtten/trademarked character in their game, they will 'genericize' (randomize the appearance and/or ban it until the name is changed) it and warn you not to use such characters in their game.
If you want to use a previously-owned character in their game, contact them and have them ask the character's owner (who might be you) for permission to use/portray the character. Good luck.
I am not a lawyer, but I do have good reading comprehension and I have read the EULA.
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So in other words, short version, Cryptic "owns" every single character name on *every* single server now created by players? Keep in mind that there are characters where a "name" appears under multiple companies, with multiple core concepts/images/appearance.
Captain Marvel & Firestar, for instance.
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Yes, if there is a character out there on Cryptic's servers named Captain Marvel, Cryptic owns that character (the version on their servers) until they become aware that there is previous ownership of Captain Marvel (any version).
When they become aware that someone previously owns Captain Marvel (and that that character is on their servers), they are then obligated to genericize the character and/or force a name change, while explaining to the misguided player that they can't just remake the character on pain of banning.
This is part of why we as players can /petition names and costumes and are encouraged to do so in the case of recognized violations of trademark, copywrite, or the EULA.
It'a all part of a plot to keep their lawyers broke.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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The store owner had it explained to him by the lawyer thusly: If your mom cooks an apple pie for you in exchange for you mowing her lawn, technically she owes sales tax on the exchange of the pie for the service of getting the lawn mowed.
In conclusion, the law may be that silly.
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This isn't silly at all. I'd explain it thusly: If you buy something, you owe the state sales tax, whether you pay in dollars or in bartered goods.
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The name, image, powers, situations and actions of a character as portrayed in your novel are yours.
The name, image, powers, situations and actions of a character as portrayed in (or created using the tools of) CoX belong to CoX.
If both are identical, CoX wins. Unless you had a previous copyright/trademark, you have just 'gifted' NCSoft with your creation.
If you had a previous legal claim, by terms of your tacit agreement with the EULA, CoX still wins. They own your character until you point out to them that you have a previous claim.
When they become aware that they have your copywrtten/trademarked character in their game, they will 'genericize' (randomize the appearance and/or ban it until the name is changed) it and warn you not to use such characters in their game.
If you want to use a previously-owned character in their game, contact them and have them ask the character's owner (who might be you) for permission to use/portray the character. Good luck.
I am not a lawyer, but I do have good reading comprehension and I have read the EULA.
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So in other words, short version, Cryptic "owns" every single character name on *every* single server now created by players? Keep in mind that there are characters where a "name" appears under multiple companies, with multiple core concepts/images/appearance.
Captain Marvel & Firestar, for instance.
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What defines identical though. If my blue skinned, white haired merfolk in my story and in CoH are the same, but they have two totally different backgrounds and histories, is that different enough?
Arc #345863 - When The Bough Breaks
"Curse you Perry the Plata...wait, is that Love Handel?" - Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz, Phineas and Ferb
Yay for the double post.
Or as the French say, "La poste du double"
Arc #345863 - When The Bough Breaks
"Curse you Perry the Plata...wait, is that Love Handel?" - Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz, Phineas and Ferb
Couldn't you simply delete the character in question and then write said novel/story/comic book? Sure it would still be on a backup somewhere, but technically the toon doesn't exist anymore.
Check, do not make toons that I want to use in my novels. Guess I'll have to erase a few lower level toons now and remake them with different names.
I was wondering the same thing
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If you were a special case (say you were Warren Ellis, and you wanted to make Spider Jerusalem in the game, and you contacted Cryptic, and they gave you the nod), it might work out (and there would probably be lawyers or at least some serious paperwork involved). But those instances are nebulous and so few and far between, it's not worth risking.
cheers,
Arctic Sun
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...and I'd like to thank you for the mental image of a scrawny, bald, tattoo-covered brute running around Aeon City, beating up the Luddites screaming "Read my $@^#ing scripture!"
*charges up his bowel disruptor*
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I was wondering the same thing
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same here. If you erase the character form the servers, is it mine again?
Looks like Cryptic has the Marvel bug. :-)
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The name, image, powers, situations and actions of a character as portrayed in your novel are yours.
The name, image, powers, situations and actions of a character as portrayed in (or created using the tools of) CoX belong to CoX.
If both are identical, CoX wins. Unless you had a previous copyright/trademark, you have just 'gifted' NCSoft with your creation.
If you had a previous legal claim, by terms of your tacit agreement with the EULA, CoX still wins. They own your character until you point out to them that you have a previous claim.
When they become aware that they have your copywrtten/trademarked character in their game, they will 'genericize' (randomize the appearance and/or ban it until the name is changed) it and warn you not to use such characters in their game.
If you want to use a previously-owned character in their game, contact them and have them ask the character's owner (who might be you) for permission to use/portray the character. Good luck.
I am not a lawyer, but I do have good reading comprehension and I have read the EULA.
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So in other words, short version, Cryptic "owns" every single character name on *every* single server now created by players? Keep in mind that there are characters where a "name" appears under multiple companies, with multiple core concepts/images/appearance.
Captain Marvel & Firestar, for instance.
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What defines identical though. If my blue skinned, white haired merfolk in my story and in CoH are the same, but they have two totally different backgrounds and histories, is that different enough?
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In theory no, as they own the look. But I suppose you could argue, it's not like a blue skinned white haired race is unique.
not that I know much about such things, but if you wanted to make a hero to put on a T-shirt for example; You'd have to think up the costume by yourself, maybe without the aid of a CoX costume designer, if not that then use a costume generater and not register it on CoX. Then take a picture of it, make the patch and so on and so forth. The idea for a novel is much simpler; don't register it. It doesn't exist if you don't register it. Therefore, it's still YOUR property, because it never became Cryptic's to begin with.
My Toons
Apocalypse86 50 Fire/energy blaster Triumph
Menace Mech (FKA Burning Gundam) 50 Bots/FF Mastermind Protector
Celestial Striker 43 Peacebringer Triumph
Mind Slice 35 Mind/King Controller Triumph
Obsidian Assassin 30 Night Widow Protector
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Another twist. I'm a novelist. I'm a writer. I write novels for a living.
What if I want to write a novel of my character, or are in the middle of writing a novel and decide to remake a char in CoH/V?
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Don't do it.
Basically, Cryptic/NCsoft owns all characters/names/images that appear in CoH/CoV.
If you were a special case (say you were Warren Ellis, and you wanted to make Spider Jerusalem in the game, and you contacted Cryptic, and they gave you the nod), it might work out (and there would probably be lawyers or at least some serious paperwork involved). But those instances are nebulous and so few and far between, it's not worth risking.
Keep your CoH/CoV characters seperate from those you plan to sell, and you should be fine.
cheers,
Arctic Sun
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Thats interesting, because the U.S. Copyright offices said otherwise about this when I brought this up on the phone with them. According to them the minute something is given an "official copyright notice" it belongs to that person and that person only. So that in turn would force NC Soft to delete that persons character in accordance to their own policies. So the question becomes how can you prove that the character is yours? If someone else already has the character created and then copywritten, which according to federal law the minute a character is put "into print" it's a legal tender for copywrite.
NC Soft can say that it owns "name x" but proving it owns name x is something altogether different in court. Even in an EULA is a sticky thing, because while it is enforcable by law there are various other contract laws that govern this sort of thing every time. I.E. if I didn't sign anything in writing, it's going to be awful hard for them to say that content I created for example is something that they own.
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What defines identical though. If my blue skinned, white haired merfolk in my story and in CoH are the same, but they have two totally different backgrounds and histories, is that different enough?
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In theory no, as they own the look. But I suppose you could argue, it's not like a blue skinned white haired race is unique.
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Bear in mind that these things often revolve around being "mistakable" for one another.
So, if your blue-skinned, white-haired character smoked a cigar, wore combat fatigues and a white tank top, and was heavily muscled with a crew cut, he'd likely not be mistaken for a blue-skinned, white-haired character with long, flowing hair, a trident, and a metallic bodysuit.
However, if you had those two characters, and they were both named "The Shore Warrior", there would still probably be a problem. Even though the two were arguably different, having such basic similarities as the hair/skin color and the same name could arguably lead to confusion.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Another twist. I'm a novelist. I'm a writer. I write novels for a living.
What if I want to write a novel of my character, or are in the middle of writing a novel and decide to remake a char in CoH/V?
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Don't do it.
Basically, Cryptic/NCsoft owns all characters/names/images that appear in CoH/CoV.
If you were a special case (say you were Warren Ellis, and you wanted to make Spider Jerusalem in the game, and you contacted Cryptic, and they gave you the nod), it might work out (and there would probably be lawyers or at least some serious paperwork involved). But those instances are nebulous and so few and far between, it's not worth risking.
Keep your CoH/CoV characters seperate from those you plan to sell, and you should be fine.
cheers,
Arctic Sun
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Thats interesting, because the U.S. Copyright offices said otherwise about this when I brought this up on the phone with them.
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This is about Trademarks more than Copyrights.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Another twist. I'm a novelist. I'm a writer. I write novels for a living.
What if I want to write a novel of my character, or are in the middle of writing a novel and decide to remake a char in CoH/V?
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Don't do it.
Basically, Cryptic/NCsoft owns all characters/names/images that appear in CoH/CoV.
If you were a special case (say you were Warren Ellis, and you wanted to make Spider Jerusalem in the game, and you contacted Cryptic, and they gave you the nod), it might work out (and there would probably be lawyers or at least some serious paperwork involved). But those instances are nebulous and so few and far between, it's not worth risking.
Keep your CoH/CoV characters seperate from those you plan to sell, and you should be fine.
cheers,
Arctic Sun
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I'll say it in two words: "too late."
I 100% disagree with this interpretation. If I have created and instituted the creative template for "Rubberlad' prior to City of Heroes being created and published for a public mass-consumer market, I would argue that I don't have to be "Warren Ellis" to protect my work in the event I then sell it off down the road regardless of whether or not I "recreated" my own copyrighted material in the COX mmorpg universe.
Is the issue of previously created player-owned images specifcally dealt with in the EULA? Is this an "in name only" issue or name and/or image - in which case, isn't Cryptic at risk of assuming Marvel's position in that recent lawsuit where they lost their bid to defend their copyright "images" if not certain trademark names?
Sorry but this response totally blew me out of the water. I can respect creative enterprise and copyright for Cryptic so it can protect it's creative style and patent for the game, but I would assume that only goes so far as NPC, written materials, and game engines/environments are concerned. At no point should Cryptic have a say over a player-created image that involves boots, gloves, a chest harness and face mask made in a certain color, etc. Cryptic may offer the tools but the players still own their own ideas regardless.
This is (IMO) clearly spelled out in the EULA. Given that, Arctic Sun's warning hardly seems "too late".
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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This is (IMO) clearly spelled out in the EULA. Given that, Arctic Sun's warning hardly seems "too late".
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Not that Artic Sun's warning was too late, but that I (and perhaps others) already have a toon they've marketed and/or sold prior to recreating it in the COX universe. Artic's interpretation of the EULA suggests I couldn't go on to continue marketing my idea because I made the mistake of recreating it in COX and that I have a problem with.
A classic example would be the "Statesman" toon. If Jack Emmert ever became disassociated with Cryptic Studios and COX universe, would he still retain the rights to the Statesman toon he created years beforehand? If he signed away creative ownership of the toon specifically in the contracts written in order to make this game possible, ok then. But what if he didn't?
Stan Lee is another classic example of someone who created a great idea as an artist but lost ownership to the corporation that made it possible (Marvel, Inc.).
Again, the irony of this statement to these examples and Cryptic and Marvel settling the lawsuit just amaze me.
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The name, image, powers, situations and actions of a character as portrayed in your novel are yours.
The name, image, powers, situations and actions of a character as portrayed in (or created using the tools of) CoX belong to CoX.
If both are identical, CoX wins. Unless you had a previous copyright/trademark, you have just 'gifted' NCSoft with your creation.
If you had a previous legal claim, by terms of your tacit agreement with the EULA, CoX still wins. They own your character until you point out to them that you have a previous claim.
When they become aware that they have your copywrtten/trademarked character in their game, they will 'genericize' (randomize the appearance and/or ban it until the name is changed) it and warn you not to use such characters in their game.
If you want to use a previously-owned character in their game, contact them and have them ask the character's owner (who might be you) for permission to use/portray the character. Good luck.
I am not a lawyer, but I do have good reading comprehension and I have read the EULA.
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So in other words, short version, Cryptic "owns" every single character name on *every* single server now created by players? Keep in mind that there are characters where a "name" appears under multiple companies, with multiple core concepts/images/appearance.
Captain Marvel & Firestar, for instance.
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What defines identical though. If my blue skinned, white haired merfolk in my story and in CoH are the same, but they have two totally different backgrounds and histories, is that different enough?
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It comes down to what happens if someone /petitions the character.
If someone /petitions the character (or if a GM read your novel), the GM involved gets to make a judgement call (or defer the judgement to superiors).
If they choose to err on the side of caution, they will then 'generic' the character and ban it. They will send you an email asking you for alternate names. Once you choose an alternate name for the character you will be allowed to play it again.
They more or less HAVE to do this to keep you from suing them over allowing someone to play your legally-protected character in their game.
Marvel tried this already. They created a Wolverine clone in the game and then tried to sue Cryptic over allowing the character to be created.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Marvel tried this already. They created a Wolverine clone in the game and then tried to sue Cryptic over allowing the character to be created.
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This I can 100% appreciate. But in lieu of the settlement, can't the EULA be updated to recognize previously trademarked ideas that players self-own and recreate in the game? That's totally different to what you're saying when a player logs in and recreates a toon that *someone else* owns.
Granted, I don't want to see someone create a 100% identical toon like "Rubberlad" and rename him "Tennis Ball" but at least it's not "Rubberlad." But to say Cryptic owns "Rubberlad" the minute I log in and create it even if the toon never existed in the game prior to my logging in, that's just ridiculous.
That would assume the same mentality as corporations who own their email and IT storage systems and own exclusive creative rights to all the work created by salaried employees and contractors they pay to work within that system and create those ideas which would be incorrect.
As a consumer, I'm not paying Cryptic to take ownership of my ideas but to provide the environment in which I can make my ideas possible and enjoy them. Next it'll be Microsoft suing me for ownership rights of a novel because I created and published it in Microsoft Word (even though I paid for the software to make it possible to create and publish my ideas).
Sorry but it just doesn't work like that.
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This is (IMO) clearly spelled out in the EULA. Given that, Arctic Sun's warning hardly seems "too late".
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Not that Artic Sun's warning was too late, but that I (and perhaps others) already have a toon they've marketed and/or sold prior to recreating it in the COX universe. Artic's interpretation of the EULA suggests I couldn't go on to continue marketing my idea because I made the mistake of recreating it in COX and that I have a problem with.
A classic example would be the "Statesman" toon. If Jack Emmert ever became disassociated with Cryptic Studios and COX universe, would he still retain the rights to the Statesman toon he created years beforehand? If he signed away creative ownership of the toon specifically in the contracts written in order to make this game possible, ok then. But what if he didn't?
Stan Lee is another classic example of someone who created a great idea as an artist but lost ownership to the corporation that made it possible (Marvel, Inc.).
Again, the irony of this statement to these examples and Cryptic and Marvel settling the lawsuit just amaze me.
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As others have said, if you have a prior claim, then what will happen is that, in acknowledging that they cannot own the character in game, they will likely "genericise" it.
Now, if you get your lawyer on deck, have him/her call their lawyers, and then send the resulting documents with a letter asking Cryptic to let you have the character if you promise not to sue them (since, as the creator of the character you can grant yourself rights to it), then you might be OK.
If you created a character in game based on someone you have no legal proof you created prior to that, you may have handed over any rights you posessed to the character's appearance and name.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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This is (IMO) clearly spelled out in the EULA. Given that, Arctic Sun's warning hardly seems "too late".
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Not that Artic Sun's warning was too late, but that I (and perhaps others) already have a toon they've marketed and/or sold prior to recreating it in the COX universe. Artic's interpretation of the EULA suggests I couldn't go on to continue marketing my idea because I made the mistake of recreating it in COX and that I have a problem with.
A classic example would be the "Statesman" toon. If Jack Emmert ever became disassociated with Cryptic Studios and COX universe, would he still retain the rights to the Statesman toon he created years beforehand?
If he signed away creative ownership of the toon specifically in the contracts written in order to make this game possible, ok then. But what if he didn't? Stan Lee is another classic example of someone who created a great idea as an artist but lost ownership to the corporation that made it possible (Marvel, Inc.).
Couldn't this be the same issue?
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Cryptic is unlikely to sue you over a character you are playing in their game that has previous legal protection.
If they become aware of it, though, they are likely to force you to change the appearance and/or name of the character in the game.
If Jack Emmert (who owns Cryptic, IIRC) left Cryptic for some reason, and if Statesman were legally protected prior to the existence of CoX (which I don't think it was), then Cryptic would most likely stop using Statesman in the game (can you say '5th Column') and also not allow Jack to play Statesman in the game.
If Statesman did not predate the game legally, then Cryptic could keep using Statesman and Jack would not be allowed to play him.
The fact of when you thought up a character appearance and bio do not enter into it (someone else can say they thought of it first), unless they were legally protected before you hit the 'enter Paragon City' button on the character creation tool.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Marvel tried this already. They created a Wolverine clone in the game and then tried to sue Cryptic over allowing the character to be created.
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This I can 100% appreciate. But in lieu of the settlement, can't the EULA be updated to recognize previously trademarked ideas that players self-own and recreate in the game? That's totally different to what you're saying when a player logs in and recreates a toon that *someone else* owns.
Granted, I don't want to see someone create a 100% identical toon like "Rubberlad" and rename him "Tennis Ball" but at least it's not "Rubberlad." But to say Cryptic owns "Rubberlad" the minute I log in and create it even if the toon never existed in the game prior to my logging in, that's just ridiculous.
That would be the same mentality as corporations who own their email and IT storage systems and own exclusive creative rights to all the work created by salaried employees and contractors they pay to work within that system which would be incorrect. As a player who's paying a monthly fee to buy into playing in a world with my player-created toon, I would argue that I am also paying to retain my right to own my own creativity and use it as I see fit outside the game model regardless of which came first - the idea or the game.
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Whether or not YOU own Rubberlad does not enter into it.
The question is, "Does Cryptic own him?" If Cryptic does not own Rubberlad, they cannot allow him on their servers.
Whether or not YOU own Rubberlad does not enter the question until Rubberlad's owner tries to sue YOU. Which is unlikely, I'd hope .
Updating the EULA is possible but unnecessary: if you want to play a character you own on Cryptic's servers, send them a letter granting them permission to use the character along with documentation proving you own it, and more documents proving your identity, sanity, soberness, etc.
They can then choose to reply with legal documentation to cement all that, a waiver document, etc. However, keep in mind that they could still choose to just take the easy safe route and 'generic' the character.
EDITed for speeling.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Laws are often silly.
In my home town, there used to be a bookstore that allowed you to trade in books for half the cover price in other books. No money changing hands, just books.
They ended up in court because they were not paying tax on the book exchanges.
The store owner had it explained to him by the lawyer thusly: If your mom cooks an apple pie for you in exchange for you mowing her lawn, technically she owes sales tax on the exchange of the pie for the service of getting the lawn mowed.
In conclusion, the law may be that silly.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!