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You seem to be willing to disregard testing because you don't like the numbers.
[/ QUOTE ] I didnt' disregard it at all. I have not seen it. I'm asking Blue if he thinks, from a design perspective, that RI would basically be twice as good as DN. Don't accuse me of an attitude I do no have.
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Its actually rather odd that you seem to be simultaneously trying to argue that RI's debuff is not really all that good, relative to flash arrow, because of its mechanical constraints, and simultaneously too powerful, because of its numerical strength.
[/ QUOTE ] That's almost dishonst. I've never once come close to saying RI is "not really all that good." Even making such an assertion is bad faith. What I've said is that RI is constrained in a way that FA is not. That when RI is on "none" of the mobs for a significat time, a power like FA can be equal or even superior. I even gave the edge to RI in my last Rad/ vs TA/ comparison.
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and simultaneously too powerful, because of its numerical strength.
[/ QUOTE ] I have a hard time believing that RI would be nearly double the strength of DN.
So please don't go ascribing a bogus position to me.
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I didnt' disregard it at all. I have not seen it. I'm asking Blue if he thinks, from a design perspective, that RI would basically be twice as good as DN. Don't accuse me of an attitude I do no have.
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Thematically? No, Dark is known for toHit debuffs. That's exactly why, from a design viewpoint, Darkest Night is and should be 'weaker' - it's necessary to make up for the large amount of tohit debuffs available to the rest of the powerset. If Darkest Night was on par with Radiation Infection, Dark Miasma would also be able to add another 20-30% accuracy debuff to an entire area ON TOP OF THAT.
The numbers also meet with my personal experience using them. So... well, it works.
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You seem to be willing to disregard testing because you don't like the numbers.
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I didnt' disregard it at all. I have not seen it. I'm asking Blue if he thinks, from a design perspective, that RI would basically be twice as good as DN. Don't accuse me of an attitude I do no have.
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I'm only accusing you of saying this:
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TopDoc's testing showed Radiation Infection to be 31.2% tohit debuff without enhancements
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At that base value, 3-slotted, RI should probably allow you to floor +3's or close to it. It should be noted, that the debuff will appear lower from testing than it actually is due to the streakbreaker. So if he's done 13K tests, the coded value may be as high as 35%. That's puts the debuff around 70% three slotted. You're going to tell me that three slotted RI is a 70% debuff? [emphasis mine]
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This certainly sounds to me like you're saying you doubt the tested value because it doesn't match your own expectations of what it "ought to be."
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At that base value, 3-slotted, RI should probably allow you to floor +3's or close to it. It should be noted, that the debuff will appear lower from testing than it actually is due to the streakbreaker. So if he's done 13K tests, the coded value may be as high as 35%. That's puts the debuff around 70% three slotted. You're going to tell me that three slotted RI is a 70% debuff?
You really think the devs are going to let it be 30-35% at level 1? [emphasis mine again] Since Castle already stated that DN was 37%...that makes RI twice as good as DN in terms of -Acc.
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This certainly sounds to me like you think *if* its really that high, it has to be a mistake, or a bug, and not intentional. But discussions about the strength of RI have been going on for ages; this would not be news to the devs. Aren't you the one that is always so fond of suggesting to me that we have to assume the devs "have the numbers?"
Are they going to "let it" be 35%? Who knows what they are going to do in the future: I think tohit buffs/debuffs and defense buffs/debuffs are likely to be at least reexamined after I7, if not as part of I7. But they "let it" be basically that high for two years already.
And by the way, even if they cut RI by 25%, it would still be more than twice as good as DN in terms of its tohit debuff in I7, because of how tohit debuffs work.
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Darkest Night is and should be 'weaker' - it's necessary to make up for the large amount of tohit debuffs available to the rest of the powerset.
[/ QUOTE ] If RI is in fact 30+% base...then this was my thought as well as for the justiifcation. FS + Shadow Fall + DN would probably stack to a higher debuff than RI.
In addition, the devs may also have felt that since Rad has two anchor debuffs, they toggles had to be really good to compensate for their drawbacks. DN only has the one anchor. FS was, at one point, perma and anchorless. Far superior, imo, to EF as a second debuff power. That power was so good, I quit using DN altogether.
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If the recharge times were adjusted, entangle arrow made identical to web grenade like it used to be, Flash Arrow Auto-hit (no need to change the debuff), Acid arrow given a larger splash radius (having it's original damage would be nice too), Oil Slick changed to self light so everyone can use the power, and the -recharge on Ice Arrow extended past the duration of the hold then I think the set would be a "great" set.
This is not asking for alot.
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Rather than let this be buried, I'll just quote it again.
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One more thing, before I decided to log out
[/ QUOTE ] I was on Test with my three slotted -acc RI. No question that 3 slotted it is close to cap on minions. One guy missed about 72 times straight. On average they hit about 1/25.
I tested this on some +2's...definitely not capping. hit me about 1/7. Most I saw was a streak of 19 straight misses.
As a general thought (not directed at you):
The question you have to ask yourself is how do you reconcile RI flooring minions in light of the devs nerfing +DEF sets so that +0's would be a challenge? Letting RI completely floor minions woudl seem to be inconsistent with the changes to /SR for example.
The answer is undoubtedly one of two things...
1) There have a reason
2) They have no reason...they haven't thought about it/addressed it with respect to RI.
Let's just take a peak at what #1 might be.....I went to test RI out on some +0 Green Inkmen. I put it on queue as I flew in from overhead...so it registered on them before they saw me. Immediately, they both hit me with energy melee attacks and knocked off my toggle. For the next 30 seconds..this kept happening. Every time I'd get the toggle up...they stun me and knock it off. I went red standing there playing this game. I had to run around healing myself before I could risk the activation time casting this power. Getting chain stunned by +0 minions made RI, let alone EF, completely worthless. Against a large group of +2 Green inkmen I had no shot at survival unless I hovered above them out of melee.
I tried using RI on some even level BP in DA. Only got about 2/3's of the mobs with RI. The Avalanche Shaman hit me with snow storm and froze me away from anchor who kept firing from range. Mean while some of them marched up, outside the range of the anchor, and put me down at their leisure.
Now, I could have escaped with TP, used LR and CC, or TP'd the anchor right next to me (though I think TP Foe is interruptable), but people on here want to act lik RI is some sort of "I win" button. It's not.
I'll quote myself where I said that when you get RI and EF on all the mobs, they are "undeniably better". How you balance toggle/anchor against anchorless/click is a subjective call...not an objective one.
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The question you have to ask yourself is how do you reconcile RI flooring minions in light of the devs nerfing +DEF sets so that +0's would be a challenge?
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Because :
a) All +def sets have mez protection capabilities. These powersets CAN take a hit from mezzing enemies and keep on kicking - the same can not be said for Storm, Dark, or Radiation (mez resistance is not the same as protection).
b) At that time, they were considering both the i7 defense change, which would significantly boost defense sets, but not -toHit sets as much. Even if they decided against using the i7 defense changes, -toHit sets become significantly weaker against higher level opponents.
c) Debuffs have an inherently higher maintanance requirement. In *nearly* all situations (excepting slow AV fights), debuffs fail or die before a related bubble or ring would. As a result, debuffs are assumed to be less efficient.
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If the recharge times were adjusted, entangle arrow made identical to web grenade like it used to be, Flash Arrow Auto-hit (no need to change the debuff), Acid arrow given a larger splash radius (having it's original damage would be nice too), Oil Slick changed to self light so everyone can use the power, and the -recharge on Ice Arrow extended past the duration of the hold then I think the set would be a "great" set.
This is not asking for alot.
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Rather than let this be buried, I'll just quote it again.
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I think those are fine ideas. Im not sure I like the self lighting Oil Slick thing, but the rest look great. And I dont really think this is alot to ask here. Heck, Id be satisfied with even just two of those changes. We're asking for the powers to be as good as Web Grenade and Smoke, last time I checked those powers were not exactly considered "uber".
Every single Devices Blaster and Traps Mastermind/Corruptor has Web Grenade because they're forced to take it, but apparently this lvl 1 power is too strong and would be horribly unbalanced if given to Trick Arrow Defenders.
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Getting chain stunned by +0 minions made RI, let alone EF, completely worthless. Against a large group of +2 Green inkmen I had no shot at survival unless I hovered above them out of melee.
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There is a reason that LR is a click power in the Rad set with a one second activation time. It takes care of pesky problems like that. You have to look at the set as a whole right? Take the whole thing in context?
If you are just comparing flash arrow to RI even if your debuff is being knocked off it is still better for the brief moment that it is on than the debuff that doesn't amount to anything against +2s and does stay on (for a decreased amount of time).
Edit: I am just saying that you are a bit quick to jump in and say that RI and EF are useless against +2s because you ran into some inkmen.
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I'm only accusing you of saying this:
[/ QUOTE ] Like the possibly tongue-in-cheek assertion of me doing a "happy dance" too early, you misinterpreted the point of my posing the question. The idea that RI could be better than DN had already occured to me for justifications similar to what Blue had stated. I wanted to see if he would counter with them. I also wanted to see if he would acknowledge, at least on some level that RI should not be better than DN unless there was some reason for it.
Why did I want this? Because that is the entire basis for understanding why any of the powers are the way they are...the reason behind it. Whether people agree with the rationale is one thing, but first we have to agree on what the reason(s) are.
I most certinaly did not believe Bone's contention that he was "close to floor"ing +3's with RI. Of course, there is some question of what he means by "close to floor."
Meaning a solo spawn on Relentless(Invinicble in CoV) of 3 +3 minions would not hit me often enough that my paulty heal couln't handle it. That's it. Prehaps a tad bit of hyperbole, but a quite noticable effect, especially if you add in Chocking Cloud and EF. I'm pretty much not getting hit enough to matter. With TA in the same fight, if I don't get that Oil Slick to light the first time I might be hosed. ANd that's leading with EMP arrow and knocking them all out at once.
Anyone know and/or tested the actual debuff numbers themselves for Flash Arrow? Builder lists them at 20% accuracy debuff which seems like a rather nice debuff but somehow every post I have read seems to say 7% or lower. Also if you know the debuff number for Flash do you know how much lower the MM version of it would be? I know its hard to test but the difference between 7 and 20 is significant in deciding whether it's worth debuff enhancements or not.
Um, might want to go back and check again, Castle... Because I don't see the choking anywhere near 50%. It's more like 5% (seen maybe a dozen times since my bow defender got it, and she's lvl 31 now).
Maybe the magnitude isn't high enough? *shrug*
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Um, might want to go back and check again, Castle... Because I don't see the choking anywhere near 50%. It's more like 5% (seen maybe a dozen times since my bow defender got it, and she's lvl 31 now).
Maybe the magnitude isn't high enough? *shrug*
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The change is probably not in the most recent patch.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
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Um, might want to go back and check again, Castle... Because I don't see the choking anywhere near 50%. It's more like 5% (seen maybe a dozen times since my bow defender got it, and she's lvl 31 now).
Maybe the magnitude isn't high enough? *shrug*
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The change is probably not in the most recent patch.
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I was under the impression it was an I7 change....
Mieux, please actualy play the set, then play other defender sets, then get a freaking clue. My dark/rad defender doesn't slot accuracy in attacks, and solos the third dificulty. My TA slots acc in acid arrow, and can't solo the second dificulty due to encountering bosses. In a team I do ok, while any other defender I have would do great. In a team with any defender or controler I completely stop using debuffs cause they are entirely unneeded.
I tried Flash Arrow on test server before the set went live. I remember when on test the set could hold it's own when compaired to other defender sets. Flash Arrow even then was the worst power choice I made. I wanted stamina, I knew just what to skip-flash arrow. I still need to decide what secondarys to drop for a travel power.
While I like the non-toggle based setup, it's a definate killer in teams. Unless there's three tanks in the team I'm gonna die as soon as my debuffs start flying. Oh wow, that's such a powerful set isn't it? TA is Ok, it needs to be Good. Better yet if they do what's needed to put it at the same effectiveness of other sets. I don't care bout debuff numbers, just that this is my only permadebt defender due to not midigating damage well enough to survive.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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While I like the non-toggle based setup, it's a definate killer in teams. Unless there's three tanks in the team I'm gonna die as soon as my debuffs start flying. Oh wow, that's such a powerful set isn't it? TA is Ok, it needs to be Good. Better yet if they do what's needed to put it at the same effectiveness of other sets. I don't care bout debuff numbers, just that this is my only permadebt defender due to not midigating damage well enough to survive.
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Hehe, even three tanks won't necessarily help ya stay alive. I did Siege the other night and died multiple times just laying my debuffs on the mob we were fighting with no outside aggro and I'd get so much that a few people were telling me to target the tanks. Heh. I told them that all my debuffs were AoE and that wouldn't help. 
If it were my tanks I'd be watching out for the defender more, but people just don't know how to tank anymore. They were all busy beating up on the bosses.
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While I like the non-toggle based setup, it's a definate killer in teams. Unless there's three tanks in the team I'm gonna die as soon as my debuffs start flying. Oh wow, that's such a powerful set isn't it? TA is Ok, it needs to be Good. Better yet if they do what's needed to put it at the same effectiveness of other sets. I don't care bout debuff numbers, just that this is my only permadebt defender due to not midigating damage well enough to survive.
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Hehe, even three tanks won't necessarily help ya stay alive. I did Siege the other night and died multiple times just laying my debuffs on the mob we were fighting with no outside aggro and I'd get so much that a few people were telling me to target the tanks. Heh. I told them that all my debuffs were AoE and that wouldn't help. If it were my tanks I'd be watching out for the defender more, but people just don't know how to tank anymore. They were all busy beating up on the bosses.
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Heh, and people wonder why I picked up the medicine pool.
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My dark/rad defender doesn't slot accuracy in attacks, and solos the third dificulty.
[/ QUOTE ] lmao.....sure ya do.
I would take Entangling Arrow. 80 foot range base. Easily enhanced Duration and +Acc. You can make a living on the side rooting Bosses and then Blazing Arrow. Ice Arrow is the power that seems like the after-thought to me. An AoE Stun would be better.
In looking at Trick Arrow I would say it was designed as a Controller Secondary.... which meant it had to be a Defender Primary, but that is why there is no AoE Stun Arrow in the set. It could certainly use a power like FlashFire more than Ice Arrow.
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator
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Oil Slick is great fun, but there are...issues...with igniting it. There are multiple points of failure. The knockdown field is nice, though.
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Bleah,
I love Oil Slick but I agree it has issues. Hitting it with blazing but not having it ignite is annoying. Having controller pets destroy it without igniting it is also annoying. When Oil Slick does light up, it's really nice (once you have 3 damage enchancers in it).
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I think this is a Quality of Life issue too. Igniting Oil Slick with a Blazing Arrow seems to be like an 80% probability in the real world and may be the only reason to take Trick Arrow as your Primary since.... as many players have pointed out... the other Defender Primaries do everything TA does with fewer powers, plus they get alot of Buffs and faster activation times overall.
So yes, Fix Oil Slick so it at least functions as one would expect. At the moment heal auras and broadswords are more effective at setting Oil Slick on fire than Blazing Arrow. You are fooling alot of players who see this igniting effect as an intended/realistic function of pairing the two arrow sets.
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator
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My dark/rad defender doesn't slot accuracy in attacks, and solos the third dificulty.
[/ QUOTE ] lmao.....sure ya do.
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Always the hater. The more you comment, the more you really look like you don't know this game.
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My dark/rad defender doesn't slot accuracy in attacks, and solos the third dificulty.
[/ QUOTE ] lmao.....sure ya do.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes I actualy do. Rad Blast's -defense stacks with it's self, so if I hit once, I keep hitting. This also means that my primary rarely misses. Only thing I got an ACC in is twilight gasp simply cause I can't stand my heal missing.
The reason my TA/A defender can't solo anything but heroic is quite simple really. Since there's no freaking way I can actualy prevent damage other then ice arrow, a boss tears me apart. It's the small fact that Ice Arrow can't hold a boss ever. Against minions I can lessen damage enough that 3 or 4 enemies is survivable, barely.
And yeah, I know how hard it is for tanks to actualy tank now. Teamed with seven once and outagroed them all. Still tanks do help me alot. Controlers are better yet, but then I'm just a fifth wheel. Sure I can defend a team, but even with heavily slotting recharge like I did the team has to slow down for me to defend them. I can't heal remember? And medicine pool? HA! Having a hard enough time figuring out two powers to drop for a travel power. I already have my staple three: snapshot, aimed shot, and blazing arrow. I'm regretting respecing out of fistful of arrows cause of how much agro I get in teams. I want the snipe and final power. Aim is almost a must since it boosts damage. That leaves stunning shot and... not thinking of anything else in the set I can drop.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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My dark/rad defender doesn't slot accuracy in attacks, and solos the third dificulty.
[/ QUOTE ] lmao.....sure ya do.
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Always the hater. The more you comment, the more you really look like you don't know this game.
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QFT.
SA
@Griffyn
"40 characters is my limit... okay, 50... 50 is my limit... okay, 60... 60 is my limit... okay, 70..."
One more thing, before I decided to log out, I noticed that one of the things I herded into the debuff cloud was an LT, not a minion. I watched him miss 11 times in a row. The streakbreaker says I had to have him below 20% to hit for that to happen: that places an absolute lower level bound on RI of 57.5% - 20% = 37.5% 2-slotted, or 22.5% base, again for controllers. The lower bound for RI is already within striking distance of the numbers TopDoc implies it ought to be (which is in the range of 25%-27%).
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