[ QUOTE ]
stacking res helps, but I do not believe it makes up for the actual lack of damage relative to a damage dealer in this case
[/ QUOTE ] Right...but you implied that "any" other combo. My point wasn't that your specific statement was false, but that its implication was over-stated.
If your point was that the Archery half of TA/A is not up to par, then I won't agree or disagree with that since I haven't really focused or studied Archery as a damage dealer.
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Its hard to say with dark; I believe it would have gone faster, but I'll concede that one might more properly be called a draw
[/ QUOTE ] Perhaps. Mobile PP's could avoid DA and it doesn't last as long as TP. I'd have to see if TP kept them from flying out of it and see how effectively I could keep them in the Glue or Knockdown from Oil.
But Acid Arrow's -def slotted up should be a real bonus if the PP's in question are bosses.
[ QUOTE ]
RI would have to have 40+% -acc with three slots to floor even level mobs. Sorry...no way I believe RI is this high. RI seems very effective, but I'm not believing your assertion unless a red name states it...twice.
[/ QUOTE ]
And we dont believe your assertion of how high Flash Arrow is. From what I can tell your evidence is based off of one passing quote from Castle where he says "it's identical to Smoke grenade". Then you mathematically applied an AT modifier and enhancement modifiers to reach your 20% assertion.
When the set first came out someone did actual testing with Flash Arrow and concluded that the base debuff was about 7 or 8%. Unfortunately I can't seem to find that thread anymore, may have scrolled off the boards. Anyway since this fits much closer to my own experience than your 20%, I'm not believing your assertion unless a red name states it...twice. Or at least until someone has some numbers that they themselves have tested to show that the debuff is higher than 8%.
[ QUOTE ]
Though Oil knockdown did seem just as effective...in any event, if you felt it was "quite useful" you're entitled to that opinion.
[/ QUOTE ]
Knockdown patches, like ice slick, oil slick, earthquake, are peculiar beasties. They are often more effective against higher level critters than you might otherwise expect, possibly because they constantly "pulse" a KB: even seriously degraded, the pulses happen fast enough to still knock down a high level critter "often enough" - i.e. they are normally strong enough that against an even level critter they aren't functioning to their full capacity (because you can only knock something over so fast; you can't knock them down when they are already down).
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
stacking res helps, but I do not believe it makes up for the actual lack of damage relative to a damage dealer in this case
[/ QUOTE ]
Right...but you implied that "any" other combo. My point wasn't that your specific statement was false, but that its implication was over-stated.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, what I said was:
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for one thing I'm thinking practically everything else I've ever played would have made the fight go faster - even my main, an en/en blaster
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course there are things that would not speed the fight up: empathy/archery would obviously be slower than TA/A. I just haven't played them. Of what I have played, I think my kin/rad defender might have ultimately been less help and been overall slower in that duo. But practically everything else I've played would have likely been faster or safer at the same speed.
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But Acid Arrow's -def slotted up should be a real bonus if the PP's in question are bosses.
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Not really: bosses are not intrinsicly harder to hit than minions (and we are talking about bosses: if you celebrate after defeating to +3 PP minions you're just looking for an excuse to party) and the only ones that -DEF would help on would be those pesky MoG PPs (energy). I'm pretty sure I mentioned the ones I fought were of the claws variety (unstoppable). Actually, several pairs. Level 37-38 PP bosses seemed to be consistently claws PPs in Bricks, although that might have been a coincidence.
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
RI can FLOOR even level minion accuracy post-ED.
[/ QUOTE ]
RI would have to have 40+% -acc with three slots to floor even level mobs. Sorry...no way I believe RI is this high. RI seems very effective, but I'm not believing your assertion unless a red name states it...twice.
[/ QUOTE ]
Didn't we go through this already? I can easily demonstrate that RI with 3-slots of -ACC allows me to stand in the middle of five even level CoT, and get hit at or very near the 5% floor.
That test was with a controller.
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[ QUOTE ]
And we dont believe your assertion of how high Flash Arrow is. From what I can tell your evidence is based off of one passing quote from Castle where he says "it's identical to Smoke grenade". Then you mathematically applied an AT modifier and enhancement modifiers to reach your 20% assertion.
When the set first came out someone did actual testing with Flash Arrow and concluded that the base debuff was about 7 or 8%. Unfortunately I can't seem to find that thread anymore, may have scrolled off the boards. Anyway since this fits much closer to my own experience than your 20%, I'm not believing your assertion unless a red name states it...twice. Or at least until someone has some numbers that they themselves have tested to show that the debuff is higher than 8%.
[/ QUOTE ]
My guess based on experience is that its about 10% unslotted, which would make it 20% slotted. But it might be very hard to tell the difference between 20% and 16% (which is base 8% 3-slotted) without a very long set of trials. In fact, in general most accuracy tests have a margin of error on the order of one to two percentage points, which makes a measured 8% well within the margin of error of a true 10% number unless the tester tested many thousands of swings.
In other words, 8% doesn't contradict 10% unless the margin of error on those tests were very tight (probably at least 5000 swings).
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[ QUOTE ]
IF it were identical to Smoke, then I'd agree that seems odd. Defenders have a higher AT modifier. And as an aside, only the defender version is unresistable in PvP...though this discussion is about PvE.
[/ QUOTE ]
Castle did say that the debuff of Flash was identical to Smoke. He also said it was identical to SG. He said that it functioned the same as SG and that the debuff was the same as Smoke if I recalled correctly. Annoying to say the least.
As an aside, -acc is not resisted in PvP period no matter who applies the debuffs. Also, not all defender debuffed are un-resistable. Only some of them are. -dmg and -speed are both resistable as is -recharge, and -regen. It appears the only debuffs that are not resistable by defenders in PvP is -def and -res. However, not every defender power has been tested in this regard against every defensive power so not even the developers know for sure that everything is working properly on live.
Also while some defender powers cannot be resisted this does not mean that there is no mitigation for defender debuffs. Weaken from the Poison secondary for MMs works very well at negating defender debuffs before they are even applied. I believe Benumb has a similar effect that may actually be more powerfull than Weaken since it is from a Corruptor but I am not sure.
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And we dont believe your assertion of how high Flash Arrow is. From what I can tell your evidence is based off of one passing quote from Castle where he says "it's identical to Smoke grenade". Then you mathematically applied an AT modifier and enhancement modifiers to reach your 20% assertion.
When the set first came out someone did actual testing with Flash Arrow and concluded that the base debuff was about 7 or 8%. Unfortunately I can't seem to find that thread anymore, may have scrolled off the boards. Anyway since this fits much closer to my own experience than your 20%, I'm not believing your assertion unless a red name states it...twice. Or at least until someone has some numbers that they themselves have tested to show that the debuff is higher than 8%.
[/ QUOTE ]
My guess based on experience is that its about 10% unslotted, which would make it 20% slotted. But it might be very hard to tell the difference between 20% and 16% (which is base 8% 3-slotted) without a very long set of trials. In fact, in general most accuracy tests have a margin of error on the order of one to two percentage points, which makes a measured 8% well within the margin of error of a true 10% number unless the tester tested many thousands of swings.
In other words, 8% doesn't contradict 10% unless the margin of error on those tests were very tight (probably at least 5000 swings).
[/ QUOTE ]
The 8 to 10% numbers seem to coincide with my own experiences. I've never run any hard tests on FA, but I can tell you that even when I get good mob coverage with it that I'm hit a whole lot more as opposed to when I plant either RI or DN with my rad or dark defenders. Sure, anchors do have a couple disadvantages: they seperate from mobs, or somebody just ups and knocks them to the four winds. But when it comes to overall safety, I'd put my hard-earned money on RI or DN before I'd invest it in Flash Arrow.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Castle said in passing Flash Arrow was similar to Smoke Grenade. We know that Smoke Grenade went from being a 100% debuff to a 10% debuff. I know there is some debate over what this means, but it seems clear to me that this number is multiplicative (in this instance).
That means that, against an even level minion with 50% acc, smoke grenade will reduce their acc to 45%, reducing incoming damage by 10%.
If Flash Arrow works in a similar way, then, based on Castle's numbers (with Defender debuff modifier), we can expect the Acc Debuff to be 12.5%. Slotted up with SOs, that brings us to about 25%. Which means, an even leveled minion is going from 50% accuracy to 37.5% (or thereabouts), mitigating incoming damage by about 25%.
Based on Castle's post, we know that Darkest Night, slotted up with 3SOs, subtracts 37.5% from the base to hit. (I use Darkest Night instead of the Rad Debuffs because we have dev numbers for it). So, an even leveled minion is reduced to an accuracy of 12.5% with Darkest Night on, which is a mitigation of 75% damage, even without considering the damage debuff of DN.
Consider the damage mitigation a Dark defender can provide against the alpha strike with DN alone. The Acc debuff drops incoming damage to 25%, then reduces that by a further 37.5% with the damage debuff. DN can reduce an alpha strike from a group of even leveled minions 15% or so. That's pretty hefty.
Rad does even better. With Radiation Infection alone, they can drop even levels to the accuracy floor, effectively taking only 5% of incoming damage. (my numbers here might be off, because I'm not as familiar with Rad, and there have been no dev post on this. They are based on TopDoc's numbers, and based on his sample size, should be fairly accurate).
Now, TA. I don't think anyone denies that, because of the nature of Flash Arrow (no aggro, clicky, large area), it cannot be as powerful, numerically, as DN. But, based on the numbers, Flash Arrow alone only reduces damage by 25%. Drop a PGA to start the battle (for a further ~30% damage debuff), and you're taking about 52% of incoming damage from the alpha.
So, with DN, you're dropping damage to 15%. With Rad, it's about 5%. With TA, it's 52%, with two powers.
Of course, there's a host of things I'm not considering. Dark would probably do well with Fearsome Stare. Rad has AM, a reliable heal, offensive debuffs and so on. TA has the usuable-around-a-corner Oil Slick.
But, laying out these numbers, it seems TA's damage mitigation isn't negligible (25% from FA alone, non-aggroing, is hardly terrible). However, it does fall significantly behind Rad and Dark in sheer numbers. The benefits of toggle debuffs versus click/recharging ones isn't clear on either side, I think. Whether the lower numerical value of TA's debuffs balance out against the advantage gained by the nature of these debuffs... I have no idea. But TA is certainly fun to play.
Edited to take into account RI slotted, based on numbers by TopDoc. Thanks Blueeyed.
[ QUOTE ]
Rad doesn't do quite so well. They could choose to debuff Damage, and take the lower damage alpha strike, but they'd be taking 70% of full damage. They could choose to debuff Acc, which allows them to only recieve 30-35% of the alpha. Not as good as Dark, but still decent. (my numbers here might be off, because I'm not as familiar with Rad, and there have been no dev post on this. But I don't think it's TOO far off).
[/ QUOTE ]
Just as a note, TopDoc's testing showed Radiation Infection to be 31.2% tohit debuff without enhancements (tested over 13,000 attacks). It's a very powerful debuff.
I did take a look at TopDoc's numbers. I very much agree that Radiation Infection is very powerful. My point in the above post was only that, relative to Darkest Night, it is not as good of a defensive debuff. TopDoc's numbers with DN (modified for defender numbers) seem to agree with this. DN is 35% vs RI's 31%, and DN has the 37.5% damage debuff too.
That's assuming Darkest Night is slotted with 3 toHit debuff enhancements, and Radiation Infection isn't slotted at all.
I'm afraid the difference is much bigger than that. With the same slotting required for Darkest Night to provide -35 toHit, Radiation Infection can provide -62 tohit.
[ QUOTE ]
TopDoc's testing showed Radiation Infection to be 31.2% tohit debuff without enhancements
[/ QUOTE ] At that base value, 3-slotted, RI should probably allow you to floor +3's or close to it. It should be noted, that the debuff will appear lower from testing than it actually is due to the streakbreaker. So if he's done 13K tests, the coded value may be as high as 35%. That's puts the debuff around 70% three slotted. You're going to tell me that three slotted RI is a 70% debuff?
You really think the devs are going to let it be 30-35% at level 1? Since Castle already stated that DN was 37%...that makes RI twice as good as DN in terms of -Acc.
Mieux,
Yeah, that was pretty much my experience with my vl 40 Sonic/Rad Corruptor. I could pretty close to floor +3's. Nothing that my paultry heal couldn't hadle solo.
Your posts continue to make me wonder if you really know this game as well as you think you do. If you would actually play another defender set that debuffs perhaps you could understand our frustration with FA.
Oh, and I like how you say the guy who did 13,000 hit test was 'smoking' something. Classy as usual there Mieux.
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Oh, and I like how you say the guy who did 13,000 hit test was 'smoking' something. Classy as usual there Mieux.
[/ QUOTE ] I was not referring to the guy that did the tests.
I have RI..three slotted with -acc SO's and two -Def SO's....I've never gotten the impression that I was flooring +3's. I've fought +2's and +3's and I was taking a beating with RI on them.
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Sure it would. My Stormy could perma-KB them so they never get the opportunity to use MoG/Unstoppable/Elude.
[/ QUOTE ] I've yet to see a Storm pull that off. I have seen knockdown keep them from crisis-mode long enough for team to punk them. What I do see is squishies getting knocked back by ET and their blasts....make something like Hurricane harder to apply conintuously. PP's are also frequently enountered on platforms where they fly off and a Storm couldn't get to them.
If you say you've done it, I'm inclined to believe you, but I'm skeptical to the average success rate of this.
[/ QUOTE ]
Solo I can do it 90% of the time, in a team it's closer to 50%, but that's mostly because I have to hold off on using Tornado until the minions/lts are all gone (which is heavily depending on how much AoE damage we have, and depending on the AT bringing it it's not a sure thing. Some groups they'll just pile on the boss before I can field some KB.) so they don't confuse the Tornado.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
[ QUOTE ]
When peopl like Goofy come an and attack me with completely bogus comparisions and faulty logic, when they constantly complain about the set and make assertions that I know aren't true, damn right I'm going to think they don't know how to play it, or they lack the requisite knowledge to make it effective.
[/ QUOTE ]
So far, I've not attacked you personally. But I'm going to do so now. Mieux, you're an obstinate troll.
Let's talk about assertions, shall we? You constantly say of TA that "The set is great." Yet, the only statements you put forth for this address the method of the debuffsthat they're clicks rather than toggles. Well, yes, that's true. And in all of your examples showing the "problems" that toggle sets have, you refer to teammates knocking enemies out of the debuffs, and how getting mezzed drops toggles. If your teammates who can't use their knockback powers productively, that does not indicate a problem with a toggle set. It's a problem with the players. You may as well say that since people run out of line of sight for heals, that's a problem with the Empathy set. As far as mezzing goes, if you get to have indiscriminate knockback users in your example, I get to have Clear Mind being kept up on me in mine, and the toggles don't drop.
Another favorite of mine is when you say that "Anyone who doesn't think the set is great has no skill at the game." Hey, marvelous logic! If you don't agree with me, you're no good at the game! News flashthe set is not great. It could be great, and it should be great. The fact is that there are exactly two debuffs that TA does better than other debuff sets: 1) -res, but only in a small area and by using two powers; 2) EMP arrow has an advantage over EMP due to its ability to be used at range. In every other case, the debuffs are done at least as well as TA or better by one of the other debuffing sets, and those debuffs are available more often in many cases. And just because it needs to be said, those other sets which do the debuff job better overall also have at least two of the following in each set: heal, buff, rez.
Add to this the actual amount of time spent applying debuffs, due to animation times (and possibly weapon draw times, especially if your secondary happens to be something other than Archery) and the predominance of single-effect powers, and TA falls further behind.
See, there's a little thing called "balance" which is not being achieved here.
You keep praising the effectiveness of Flash Arrow, and call into question the results of the tests conducted by others. Feel free to do your own tests and share the details and results with the rest of us. It's simply not as effective as you (and you alone) would have everyone believe it to be. I have been on teams where I've stopped using Flash Arrow, and there has been no noticeable difference in the amount of damage taken by the party or the downtime after fights (there was no downtime in either case). I realize that you believe that a power's effects don't have to be noticeable for the power to be "useful" in your definition, but that's pretty much the opposite of how normal people would see it.
Other miscellaneous things that need to be set straight.
I have never once said "TA sucks" as you have suggested. My stance from the start has been that TA, as a defender primary, is underbalanced. Everyone who has posted on these forums on the subject seems to have the same opinion, except for Mieux. Can everybody but one person be wrong? Don't bother responding to that, I know what the gist of your trite answer will be.
You also claimed that I didn't feel Glue Arrow would be balanced unless it was permanent. Nope, sorry, never said or implied that. What I did say was that a two-minute base recharge on a power that only slows was not balanced next to a 90-second base recharge on a power that slows and has other effects. This is where you'll bring up the point about Glue Arrow's debuff sticking to mobs after they leave the patch. And I'll point out that this is not relevant to the conversation, because it was not a factor in the recharge time at all. Quote from Positron when the change was made: "Glue Arrow: Reduced Duration of Glue Arrow from 45 seconds to 30 second and Increased Recharge time from 20 seconds to 120 seconds to prevent multiple stacking. Fixed Glue Arrow visual f/x." The only given reason for the insane recharge time was self-stacking. The dev team has shown that they have both the technology and the philosophy to address this issue by other means that don't involve unprecedented recharge times. If this were a technical impossibility, due to the nature of how Glue Arrow works, then a response in the "Dev Response Thread" would have been called for, since there were many suggestions to that effect when this change was announced. The complete and total lack of a response sent the message that they just didn't care to deal with it.
On that note, you also say I "insulted the devs" when I called the Glue Arrow self-stacking "fix" taking the cheap way out. This is humorous coming from the person who directly tells people they suck not only at playing a set, but at the entire game itself, and says this is not an attack, but rather an observation based on their posts. Okay, so I didn't attack you when I called you an obstinate troll. It was just an observation based on your posts. Glad we got that sorted out. Did I say the devs were so incompetent that they couldn't figure out a better way around the problem? Nope, I sure didn't, because that's not what I believe. What I believe is that they simply didn't put the time and effort into balancing a new set that it deserved.
Then there's the subject of the consolidated list of problems and suggestions I posted on the set; or the "rant" as you put it. That post was put together not just from my experiences with the set, but also from thoughts put forth by other Trick Arrow defenders at the time. When I addressed the Trick Arrow defender community at the time, nobody replied with "the set is great as it is, leave it alone." This was pre-ED, by the way. If you wish to think that a consolidated list of suggestions from the community is a "rant," then so be it. It certainly fits in with your presented logic.
I really hope the set gets the attention it deserves. If you're enjoying the set in the meantime, that's great for you. It does not, however, mean that the concerns of everyone else are invalid or unwarranted. The only reason I can see for you fighting against improvements to the set to get it balanced is that you want to be the rare/unique as a Trick Arrow defender. That, or you just like telling everyone they're "unskilled" for some reason. Neither is a valid argument for making the set enjoyable for everyone else.
[ QUOTE ]
I have RI..three slotted with -acc SO's and two -Def SO's....I've never gotten the impression that I was flooring +3's. I've fought +2's and +3's and I was taking a beating with RI on them.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's cause you can't do math.
A +3 minion has a 1.22267 rank bonus, and your powers work at only 65% efficiency. That means a +3 minion has a base toHit of 61% base accuracy. A +3 LT has a base tohit of 70%. A 3 slotted RI only affects them with a 39% toHit debuff.
A minion will still be hitting you a good 20% of the time, and an LT will be hitting you more than 30% of the time.
[ QUOTE ]
If Flash Arrow works in a similar way, then, based on Castle's numbers (with Defender debuff modifier), we can expect the Acc Debuff to be 12.5%. Slotted up with SOs, that brings us to about 25%. Which means, an even leveled minion is going from 50% accuracy to 37.5% (or thereabouts), mitigating incoming damage by about 25%.
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't forget to factor in RAD/DARK also have heals on top of the debuff incase shots get through (along with the better debuff...)
I read this entire thread last night and GP just said nearly everything that I was thinking. I'll add a few more things.
Many of the recharge times in the game were greatly increased pre-ED when the Devs were trying to balance the game for perma-Hasten and 6 Recharges in powers. This was done to stop perma-Elude, perma-Mog, Perma-Lightform, etc. The problem is that Post-ED, the timers were never revisited.
I've played every Defender primary set with a number into the 30s and I can say with a good deal of confidence that TA does not bring enough to the team in its current configuration. TA is not a horrible set, it's just a little out of whack.
Here are the issues that I see with the set:
Weapon draw and animation times are not balanced with the effects of the power.
It takes TA longer to get the debuffs on the mobs. In order to get a full range of debuffs on the mobs, it will take TA over eleven (11) seconds. None of the other debuffing sets come anywhere near that length of time.
Sure, you can cut that back a bit if you use FA first, but that still leaves TA taking a lot longer. Also, you don't start every fight completely in control.
If it takes a longer to start defending the team, there should be some tangible benefit to the debuffs. The lingering effects are good, but are by and large not relevant for targetted mob AoEs.
Recharges are not balanced with the effects of the powers.
Last time I checked, the AoE debuffs of the other debuffing Defenders have a 3-1 Recharge-Duration ratio. GA and DA have a 4-1 and do not have superior effects to account for the increased recharge.
Here are the few changes that I feel that TA needs.
Entangling Arrow: Change to a Immob, -Fly, -Jump, -Recharge, -Speed. This power should be a superior version of Web Grenade. A Defender primary power should outshine a Blaster secondary power by a great deal.
Flash Arrow: -Acc to 25% base. It should not be as high as the -Acc powers of the other sets because it does not aggro, has a -Perception and it is a click power. However, FA needs to hit and has a long activation for a -Acc power with no other effects. In addition, a debuffing set needs to have a significant -Acc power to defend the team. Therefore, the increase is appropriate.
Glue Arrow: Reduce recharge to 90s. Increase range to 70. Remove restriction that target must be on ground. Increase AoE to 20'. Add -Fly and -Jump.
Acid Arrow: Increase AoE to 15'.
Disruption Arrow: Reduce recharge to 90s.
Oil Slick: The slick should always ignite if defeated. Give every TA a special auto-hit power that can ignite the slick. Make it an arrow, so there's no redraw. Use the snap shot animation.
I think that with these changes, TA becomes on par with the other debuffers. It still has a delay with getting the debuffs on the mobs, but increasing the -Acc in Flash Arrow should mitigate that a good deal. TA has increased flexibility over other sets, so the overall delay is a balancing point.
SA
@Griffyn
"40 characters is my limit... okay, 50... 50 is my limit... okay, 60... 60 is my limit... okay, 70..."
If the recharge times were adjusted, entangle arrow made identical to web grenade like it used to be, Flash Arrow Auto-hit (no need to change the debuff), Acid arrow given a larger splash radius (having it's original damage would be nice too), Oil Slick changed to self light so everyone can use the power, and the -recharge on Ice Arrow extended past the duration of the hold then I think the set would be a "great" set.
This is not asking for alot.
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That's cause you can't do math.
[/ QUOTE ] An attempt at an insult? hahaha...except it has nothing to do with math. I don't have the purple patch numbers by bedside, nor have I memorized the +rank modifiers.
But you are right...I should have remembered that the modifier would have to be higher than 70% to affect plus mobs. I think you and Bone_Machine need to have a discussion on his ability to "close to floor" +3's with his /Rad Corruptor.
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TopDoc's testing showed Radiation Infection to be 31.2% tohit debuff without enhancements
[/ QUOTE ] At that base value, 3-slotted, RI should probably allow you to floor +3's or close to it. It should be noted, that the debuff will appear lower from testing than it actually is due to the streakbreaker. So if he's done 13K tests, the coded value may be as high as 35%. That's puts the debuff around 70% three slotted. You're going to tell me that three slotted RI is a 70% debuff?
You really think the devs are going to let it be 30-35% at level 1? Since Castle already stated that DN was 37%...that makes RI twice as good as DN in terms of -Acc.
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You seem to be willing to disregard testing because you don't like the numbers. For someone who claims to play a rad, you don't seem to have noticed how strong the RI debuff is. The Controller version has to be higher than 20% base, 40% enhanced, because that's trivial to determine. The net tohit of minions in its aura is much less than 1 in 10. That places a lower bound on the defender version at 22.5% and 45% slotted. The absolute lower bound.
But here's how much faith I have in TopDoc's testing methodology. I'm logged into test now, running RI 2-slotted against 3 level 50 nemesis minions. This would be a controller, again. TopDoc's numbers say I should have these guys down to on the order of 9%.
That's pretty much what its looking like.
Its actually rather odd that you seem to be simultaneously trying to argue that RI's debuff is not really all that good, relative to flash arrow, because of its mechanical constraints, and simultaneously too powerful, because of its numerical strength.
In any case, the purple patch degrades that number rapidly, so its not possible to floor +3s with it in any case. I wouldn't be surprised if extreme tohit debuffs like RI were reduced in I7, primarily because its overkill when nothing has more than base 50% tohit anyway, and the extra tohit debuff strength is really just bypassing the purple patch at that point, which is probably not something the devs want to allow to too much of an extent. Tohit debuffs *had* to be high because it had to work on things with higher tohit that had nothing to do with level. I7 will simplify the ability to balance that more carefully; one of the many benefits of executing the I7 scaler changes besides just making me look like a messiah.
TopDoc's testing methodology, btw, factors out the streakbreaker; at least his current methodology does. And if RI is as powerful as we all know it is, the streakbreaker has essentially zero effect on RI.
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Your post reaffirms why I find you contemptible, but let me spell it out.
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the only statements you put forth for this address the method of the debuffsthat they're clicks rather than toggles.
[/ QUOTE ] Oversimplified. The method difference creates cascade benefits and avoids cascade failures of Toggles. If a sticky, click, debuff can be applied on permanent basis, then it is far far far superior to one that requires a toggle and an anchor. You and others simply want to wave this aside. It's specifically because TA does not have to rely on a toggle and anchors that should require the debuffs to be objectively less powerful. The balance that results is based on the context of the game. Notice that the devs adjusted the values after the set was released. This should indicate that the devs needed to see the set in action to determine how to balance TA against the others.
You don't think they balanced it? You think they took the "cheap" way out...good for you.
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As far as mezzing goes, if you get to have indiscriminate knockback users in your example, I get to have Clear Mind being kept up on me in mine, and the toggles don't drop.
[/ QUOTE ] More of your pathetic attempts at logical reasoning. First off, Solar Flare and Gleeming Blast cause radial knockback period. You can not channel or direct where the mobs go. To simply use the power hamstrings anchor debuffs...regardless.
Second, you don't get to bring in Clear Mind as an answer to my knockback issue. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Mezzing is resultant from the enemies you face, not your teammates.
Third, on teams where you don't have knockback using teammates, you don't get to avoid mezzing.
Fourth, there is no available mechanism in the game where your counter is even an option. One does not get a free Clear Mind with every energy blaster.
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You may as well say that since people run out of line of sight for heals, that's a problem with the Empathy set
[/ QUOTE ] More ridiculous logic. It's a problem with every set isn't it? The one exception is kinetics which you can technically heal someone without seeing them. And this is fundamental to what balances Trans with TG. The method of implementation allows a kineticist to heal from a distance and avoid collateral damage (though it does have drawback in that you have to be close to get healed). Depending on your teamates, Kin can be a much better choice than Dark. Context.
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"Anyone who doesn't think the set is great has no skill at the game."
[/ QUOTE ] Except I never said that. You've misqouted me and that amounts to fraud. I've also clarified what it was I was saying and had one of my posting rivals agree that TA takes more skill to play effectively.
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those other sets which do the debuff job better overall also have at least two of the following in each set: heal, buff, rez.
[/ QUOTE ] So out march the strawmen. From the start, I've acknowledged that Dark/Dark and Rad/Rad should perform better on average than TA/A. But keep crying about how dark and rad is better and the world is so unfair.
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Everyone who has posted on these forums on the subject seems to have the same opinion, except for Mieux.
[/ QUOTE ] The strawmen march on. I've repeatedly said D/D and R/R are arguably better. But like so many other things about the game, you ignore that which does not support your agenda. You'd rather get your way than be enlightened.
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You also claimed that I didn't feel Glue Arrow would be balanced unless it was permanent.
[/ QUOTE ] You'll have to show me that specific quote. What I said was that any change that allowed GA to be permenant ...would be too good. Please show me were I say you demanded GA be permanent.
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What I believe is that they simply didn't put the time and effort into balancing a new set that it deserved.
[/ QUOTE ] And exactly what constitutes the necessary time and effort? In fact, I'll argue that for you, it has nothing to do with time and effort but result. You haven't the foggiest clue how much time they spent trying to balance TA. But since, in your opinion, GA is not balanced, they must not have spent the time and effort. And you wonder why I find you contemptible...
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If this were a technical impossibility, due to the nature of how Glue Arrow works, then a response in the "Dev Response Thread" would have been called for
[/ QUOTE ] This is an entirely different issue. Whether and to what degree the devs have to respond does not speak to their efforts or issues with resolving any imbalances that they see in TA. But clearly you'll grasp at any straws you can to make your point.
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It does not, however, mean that the concerns of everyone else are invalid or unwarranted.
[/ QUOTE ] When the concerns are based on completely erroneous understanding of the actual powers and a refusal to acknowledge problems associated with other sets....it most certainly does. And this is the basis on which I generally reject you as an authority on the matter. Your inabillty and continual refusal to acknowledge and concede off-setting factors undermines your credibility and objectivity.
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That, or you just like telling everyone they're "unskilled" for some reason.
[/ QUOTE ] You and one or two others does not constitute everyone. I suspect that Arcana is quite skilled at TA.
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Glue debuffing their recharge and Oil Slick knocking them down also make the damage come at a slower rate, even at +5-6.
[/ QUOTE ] Glue barely slows down a +5. Arcana suggests that the total -recharge is only 30% of base value against a +5. Though Oil knockdown did seem just as effective...in any event, if you felt it was "quite useful" you're entitled to that opinion.
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But every single time FA is on all of them the -acc is doing almost NOTHING to help stop damage come in
[/ QUOTE ] You keep saying that, and it's wrong every time. Whether you "notice" how much helps is a question of your own observation skills.
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I've had it 5 slotted for -acc pre-ED and not floored even level mobs accuracy.
[/ QUOTE ] Pre-ED that would only be about a 30% debuff if the base is 11.25%. So no..it would not floor +0 mobs six slotted with -acc. I'm curious why you think flooring +0 mobs is a requirement for the power to have significant effect.
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As I said before, PGA is one of the few powers that any of us have a problem with
[/ QUOTE ] My point is to talk about TA's overall debuffing compared to the Rad/ in that situation, not to necessarily prove PGA is better or worse than EF
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RI can FLOOR even level minion accuracy post-ED.
[/ QUOTE ] RI would have to have 40+% -acc with three slots to floor even level mobs. Sorry...no way I believe RI is this high. RI seems very effective, but I'm not believing your assertion unless a red name states it...twice.
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To have Smoke be identical in every way but a to-hit check is just dumb to me
[/ QUOTE ] IF it were identical to Smoke, then I'd agree that seems odd. Defenders have a higher AT modifier. And as an aside, only the defender version is unresistable in PvP...though this discussion is about PvE.
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if your Rad/* defender doesn't know well enough to drop their toggles...
[/ QUOTE ] now you're being obtuse. Dropping toggles and reapplying them takes time. It also requires you do nothing but watch your anchors when you have a En blaster and /storm controller. It's of questionable value depending on the number and type of mobs left. PGA blocks the graphics of the anchor point and it was not possible to see who the anchor was without analyzing the distribution.
The fact is, anchor debuffing has its own set of substantive drawbacks.
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I really think you are fooling yourself with the effectiveness of FA.
[/ QUOTE ] And I think you're in denial about how FA helps. Perhaps the biggest diff in playing my Rad versus my TA is my ability to mitigate the alpha. FA does it. RI cannot unless I'm willing to expose myself to the alpha...AND....I'm willing to risk splintering the spawn and thus reduce the mobs affectd by my anchors.
FA allowed me to debuff the spawn so that the Katana/DA on the team could pinch hit for the tank when he was late to the party. Without FA...the alpha kills her before she can get DR off to save her butt. FA doesn't have to floor mobs to have significant impact on the teams survivability.
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My personal fav is to team with a fire tank. Makes my job easy.
[/ QUOTE ] That's who the lvl 34 tanks was. Much to my disappointment, he failed to light OS 1/3 of the time I used. I've also noticed that when teamed with an Earth Controller, I had a terrible time of getting a fire blaster to light OS.
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but don't knock us for trying to make it better. Especially with your incredibly lame accusations of our lack of skill with the set.
[/ QUOTE ] I haven't knocked anyone for trying to make it better. Don't falsley accuse me. What I have done is defended my assertions that TA is a great set if you have skill. When peopl like Goofy come an and attack me with completely bogus comparisions and faulty logic, when they constantly complain about the set and make assertions that I know aren't true, damn right I'm going to think they don't know how to play it, or they lack the requisite knowledge to make it effective.