Expansion vs Standalone game pricing and CoV
By
AngusMacGregor,
Posted on: 2005-11-29 07:42 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
CoV is a stand alone game if you don't already own CoH. If you don't already have CoH, it's ALL new to you.
So, the only way you'd notice that it's not all new content is if you already have CoH... in which case it's an expansion.
...I really don't see the problem here.
You're not paying any extra for it (beyond the box price) so it's a little cheaky to complain.
Compair CoV to CoH before Issue 1, CoH had probibly less content than CoV does now.
Also compair this to a free issue...
CoV added more AT's and zones than all other CoH issues put together, plus it'll get it's own updates along side CoH's...
Yes, but the fact that in a few updates the 2 games will even out, is an important one. I am sure that CoV will have more zones/badges added on average, the next couple of updates.
In the long run, people who only own CoH will be the one getting the short end of the stick. Because of fewer costumes and more importantly(or perhaps less importantly), no SG bases.
Welcome to last month! And the month before!
But seriously, there was a lot of this sentiment during CoV beta as well - almost literally a new series of posts about the lack of new powers, same tilesets, etc...with each new beta wave. And I was one of them.
I'm still not happy about a lot of those things, but I've found enough enjoyment in the new ATs, new zones, storyarcs, etc...and have enough confidence that future updates will continue to round out this game that I've decided to continue past my free month.
But here's where you lose me:
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I think with what we paid for, each AT deserves at least one new powerset in both primary and secondary (in coh, they were all new), at least 4 new zones, and base raids functioning correctly with IOP's enabled, 2 more hero groups, and this WITHIN THE NEXT 30 DAYS.
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While we may 'deserve' it, making demands of the dev's is in poor form, never works, and will indeed incurr the wrath of the "fanboi mafia".
The good news is that some of these things will come in the next update. We know there are at least 2 new zones and the 50-level cap coming in the next Issue. You can hope that this might be accompanied by a new hero group or two (as it was when CoH added the level 50 zones). A few dev posts have alluded to some new powersets on the design board (shield tankers, for example), so if we're really lucky, you might see those with the next Issue as well. I'd also hazard a prediction that raids and IOPs will be functioning correctly by the time the next issue comes out. So, demands or not, you might get most of what you want...."soon".
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6 zones
5 re-mixed ATs
4 'new' enemy npcs
3 unique powersets
0 Accolades
0 Items of Power
0 HO's for villains
It doesn't even come close. Let me cut off one response right now "but just wait they'll add stuff". My free month is up. I'm talking about comparing this to coh launch.
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Okay, trimmed your post down to two important bits.
You're comparing it to SoH launch?
Well, at CoH launch there was many more than 6 zones, but many of those zones are bland and featureless (IP, the unused massive portions of TI and CF), or places people don't go there unless they need to or they want a place to hunt in low population areas (Boomtown, Faultline, RCS). The CoV zones are crawling with activity, are larger in general, and have a much more quality over quantity feel.
The remixed AT's feel new enough. They play completely differently as well. This bothered me at first until I noticed how different things were even if many parts are the same. Plus I recall one of the devs stating how much work a whole new powerset is (art, animation, balance) and it wasn't feasable to be done at launch but that they are working on more.
Only 4 new NPC types? Mooks are similar to Family. Goldbrickers are similar to Sky Raiders, but definitely destinct enough to warrant being considered seperate. There has alo been additions to the CoT (Beserkers, Nerva demons, Succubi), Freaks (Meat Doctors, Sneaky Freaks [but they might only be in that one mission]), Tsoo (Blue Ink Men), Infected (like the ones in outbreak, but there's more of them now)and probably more. The new ones include the Snakes, Wyvern, the Scrapyarders, the Arachnos (which are quite heavily varied), Luddites, Longbow, Rogue Island Police/Cage Consortium, Slag Golems, Shivans... basically everything in CoH, and then a bunch more. And this is only listing to level 25. I'm not sure about what else lies ahead.
Only 3 unique powersets? Merc, Necro, Ninja, Robot, Traps, Therm, Cold, Energy Aura, Ninjutsu, Poison, Thorns...
0 Accolades? Well, if you're comparing it to CoH launch... Accolades were only introduced at issue 2 with badges. So there were no accolades at CoH launch either, and there wasn't until about 4-5 months after launch.
0 items of power? And you're comparing it to CoH launch? Which doesn't have items of power either?
0 HO's? Well, HO's are only level 50. Maybe there will be some HO's with the raising of the level cap (which was also 40 at CoH launch).
So comparing it to CoH launch kinda tips it in favour of CoV, for me. Especially since there's very little in CoH that's not in CoV and there's very much in CoV that's not in CoH.
You pose your views effectively, and without any unneeded bitterness, a rarity on any forum.
While I do agree that the price for CoV could have been a bit cheaper, it is not...and I get no vote in that matter (but still wanted to play, so I payed). I figure that an extra @$30 is fine if it keeps the game going longer (I tip more than that in a few hours at a sports bar, and that's for only one night's entertainment.) As for content, that was no surprise...the zones and features were pretty much common knowledge to anyone who did some research, once the NDA was lifted from beta...and prior to live. The players who are familiar with CoH (like yourself), all understand the process that the devs use to update the game...so the existing community (or at least the majority of those players I've interacted with) seems to understand that the game will grow in time (compare CoH's number of zones/baddies/ATs at launch to now). $30 is still nothing to sneeze at, but in the grand scope of things...I can deal with it, considering how much entertainment value I get for $15.95/month.
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In the long run, people who only own CoH will be the one getting the short end of the stick. Because of fewer costumes and more importantly(or perhaps less importantly), no SG bases.
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The addition of bases was one of the main reasons I bought cov, and so far I've been disappointed. It seems like there remains a lot of work to be done to get bases and base raids working correctly. The new ATs are nice, the graphics are great and I like the many little improvements (newspaper missions, mission completion for members of the same team etc.), but there are way too many bugs still in the game and some of the new "features" like the plant bomb missions are frustrating beyond belief. I know it's the norm in the game industry to release one you've reached a critical mass of features and before all the known bugs are addressed, I was hoping cov would be a little different.
Edited to fix typo.
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Only 4 new NPC types? Mooks are similar to Family. Goldbrickers are similar to Sky Raiders, but definitely destinct enough to warrant being considered seperate. There has alo been additions to the CoT (Beserkers, Nerva demons, Succubi), Freaks (Meat Doctors, Sneaky Freaks [but they might only be in that one mission]), Tsoo (Blue Ink Men), Infected (like the ones in outbreak, but there's more of them now)and probably more. The new ones include the Snakes, Wyvern, the Scrapyarders, the Arachnos (which are quite heavily varied), Luddites, Longbow, Rogue Island Police/Cage Consortium, Slag Golems, Shivans... basically everything in CoH, and then a bunch more. And this is only listing to level 25. I'm not sure about what else lies ahead.
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What? No Ritki? We have all these organizations and they leave out the Ritki? Sorry I am thread stealin here but I am upset there is no Ritki in Rogues
There's Rikti in Rogues.
Only they had to go underground as to not set off Recluse's wraith.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
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K, now before I incur the wrath of the fanboy mafia...
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<DonBot> We're the Fanboy Mafia... the entire Fanboy Mafia. </DonBot>
CoH: Issue #1
17 zones
5 ATs
2 mission types
1 Costume
0 Respecs
0 Capes & Auras
0 Accolades
0 Badges
0 Items of Power
0 Bases
0 HO's for villains (because Hammi was nigh-impossible)
Etc, etc.
When you buy CoV, you're buying all of its future content (as long as you're a subscriber) and its past content (which includes all improvements made from the basic, barebones game that was CoH). You're not buying a new game where everything is different and remade from the ground up.
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6 zones
5 re-mixed ATs
4 'new' enemy npcs
3 unique powersets
0 Accolades
0 Items of Power
0 HO's for villains
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Funny i don't remember seeing pvp zones and guild halls when i played COH. it's been a long time since i did play COH, but i'm pretty sure that those are new.......
Masterminds, well i don't think they're really a "re-mixed" AT.
It's funny how you can distort the facts to try make your argument go any way that you want it to.
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There's Rikti in Rogues.
Only they had to go underground as to not set off Recluse's wraith.
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hmmm....The Ritki aren't as dumb as they seemed after all. 
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What? No Ritki? We have all these organizations and they leave out the Ritki? Sorry I am thread stealin here but I am upset there is no Ritki in Rogues
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But where the Lost are, the Rikti, can't be far behind...
While I agree that marketting City of Villains as a sequel caused disapointment for many players expecting something totally different and more akin to what you'd expect from a sequel to a recent game I have to disagree with almost every other comment within your post. Ultimately you're not just of a different opinion, you're just flat out wrong.
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6 zones
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Cape Au Diable, Mercy Island, St. Martial, Nerva Achipeligo, Sharkhead Isle, Bloody Bay, Sirens Call, Warburg and Port Oakes. Last time I did basic math that came to 9 not 6, PvP or not those are new zones with content for both PvP and PvE.
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5 re-mixed ATs
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While its fair to say that the Corruptor plays similar to a Defender and a Brute plays like a scrapper or tank, its impossible to say that a Dominator, Stalker and certainly the Mastermind plays anything like existing hero ATs.
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4 'new' enemy npcs
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Arachnos, Longbow, The Legacy Chain, Wyvern, the Scrapyarders, Coralax, Ghost Pirates, Cage Consortium, Goldbrickers, Luddites, Shivan, Slag Golems, Snakes and the Wailers. Thats not including ones like Bat'Zul's minions either or the energy demons from the cape.
Thats about the same as what city of heroes had at lanch if not more. At launch CoH had:
5th Column, Banished Pantheon, Circle of Thorns, Clockwork, Crey, Devouring Earth, The Family, Freakshow, Hellions, The Lost, The Rikti, Outcasts, Rikti, Skulls, Vahzilok, Skyraiders, Tsoo, Trolls and the Warriors.
CoH = 19 groups, CoV = 14 groups
Thats skipping minor groups like the hydra, prisoners and infected. So not a huge difference in the numbers there especially considering how Arachnos is as large and varied as 3 villain groups combined.
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3 unique powersets
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Even the mastermind primaries total 4 new sets, just because 2 of the attack powers in three of them a pre-existing doesn't change the fact that they're 95% new. You could argue that the assault sets are a remix of existing powers but the set as a whole is fundementally new.
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0 Accolades
0 Items of Power
0 HO's for villains
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No different to city of heroes at launch. But CoV has bases which are totally new and loot and crafting not to mention gladiator matches.
In the end when you look at it in the shallow ways which you did, you're wrong by even your own reasoning.
Expansions rarely have free trial, unless, they happen to be composite of the base-game... So umm, nope. Even better is that most MMOs won't give you the advertised free month if you are simply buying a collected set (like say, EQ Platnium to get the last 4 expansions) to upgrade an existing account.
That's fine though if you don't think it's worth it. *shrug*
Let's Dance!
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Only 4 new NPC types? Mooks are similar to Family. Goldbrickers are similar to Sky Raiders, but definitely destinct enough to warrant being considered seperate. There has alo been additions to the CoT (Beserkers, Nerva demons, Succubi), Freaks (Meat Doctors, Sneaky Freaks [but they might only be in that one mission]), Tsoo (Blue Ink Men), Infected (like the ones in outbreak, but there's more of them now)and probably more. The new ones include the Snakes, Wyvern, the Scrapyarders, the Arachnos (which are quite heavily varied), Luddites, Longbow, Rogue Island Police/Cage Consortium, Slag Golems, Shivans... basically everything in CoH, and then a bunch more. And this is only listing to level 25. I'm not sure about what else lies ahead.
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What? No Ritki? We have all these organizations and they leave out the Ritki? Sorry I am thread stealin here but I am upset there is no Ritki in Rogues
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I was only listing the ones that had changes/additions and the new ones. 
The Rikti are in the isles. I just haven't seen any new or different ones.
Freakshow got Rikti Gunners now too!
Baka.
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However, if I had been a subscriber to coh, I would not have shelled out 50 bucks for CoV. I was gone for a while, and so to me it was just like buying the game all over again. Not only that, but I think most people were under the impression that the content of CoV and the amount of programming involved in that content would match CoH when it launched.
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I have a similar background (left CoH, came back for CoV) and I'm far from being a huge supporter of the devs, but I don't agree with your conclusions here.
The game has more content than CoH did at launch...WAY more. Missions are a thousand times better, and there are more varieties of them (even if some are misguided, like the invisible bomb ones). The AI is still nothing to write home about, but it's quite a bit better than it used to be. The variety of opponents is likewise substantially greater.
There may be fewer zones, but they're more alive- CoH has great swaths of completely empty territory (faultline, the Negative Zone or whatever they call it, etc). I have issues with the look of the CoV zones (remixed King's Row, top to bottom), but they're thick with action, more like Striga Isle than Skyway City. All to the good.
As for the powers and ATs...so they're not entirely new....big deal, they play entirely differently from their CoH counterparts. And I'm more interested in gameplay than in how something looks or what name you call it by.
Nobody familiar with the immense amount of work that goes into a game expected CoV to be entirely new, not if they had a prayer of making their release date.
I for one am entirely happy with the mix of old and new represented by CoV. I get a nostalgic charge from the parts that remind me of CoH, but there's enough that's new and different to make CoV feel fresh in spite of the hundreds of hours I spent playing its predecessor.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I think the devs kind of need a wake up call. I think with what we paid for, each AT deserves at least one new powerset in both primary and secondary (in coh, they were all new), at least 4 new zones, and base raids functioning correctly with IOP's enabled, 2 more hero groups, and this WITHIN THE NEXT 30 DAYS.
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...Cuddles???
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K, now before I incur the wrath of the fanboy mafia...
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Has the Forum Cartel been told about this supposed "Fanboy Mafia"?
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6 zones
5 re-mixed ATs
4 'new' enemy npcs
3 unique powersets
0 Accolades
0 Items of Power
0 HO's for villains
K, now before I incur the wrath of the fanboy mafia, let me point out that I enjoy the game.
However, if I had been a subscriber to coh, I would not have shelled out 50 bucks for CoV. I was gone for a while, and so to me it was just like buying the game all over again. Not only that, but I think most people were under the impression that the content of CoV and the amount of programming involved in that content would match CoH when it launched.
It doesn't even come close. Let me cut off one response right now "but just wait they'll add stuff". My free month is up. I'm talking about comparing this to coh launch. I'm talking about what I already paid money for, not for what I will continue to pay money for. I can't exactly call them and tell them that they owe me free months until they add content now can I?
With that out of the way, let's talk pricing. Some people actually paid 70 bucks for CoV. Let's not talk about overseas shipping prices for now. $50 is the norm for a brand spanking not-a-copy-of-something-else new game. 20-30 is what an expansion will run you. And in the mmo world, both offer free month trials.
CoV was touted as a standalone game. Implication was that the newness would equal that of coh when it launched. But really, CoV is nothing but an expansion PRICED as a new standalone product. Less new programming went into the cov ATs than went into the FREE epic ATs CoH has.
Nice graphics btw. By far the biggest improvement, but the graphics engine is a clunker that makes me wonder if it was worth it. And since it doesn't really improve the way CoH looks (unless you have shaders 3.0), then I wonder if it was even necessary to "upgrade" the engine this way.
Not to mention this game loves to crash, and you can verify that at the tech issues forum.
I think the devs kind of need a wake up call. I think with what we paid for, each AT deserves at least one new powerset in both primary and secondary (in coh, they were all new), at least 4 new zones, and base raids functioning correctly with IOP's enabled, 2 more hero groups, and this WITHIN THE NEXT 30 DAYS.
Then they can worry about epic ATs, accolades, etc.
I'm not asking that much, I'm just asking to get the same amount of product by buying CoV as I did when I bought CoH.
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Though not a huge MMO fan beyond COH, ill just chime in one one thing. First only 1 monthly fee for both games, or expansion as you see fit to put it. Second though your right, to me by all accounts COV to most COH subscribers was a expansion, and expansions normally cost 30 bucks, i will say that the amount of zones, and AT expansion and changes and additional baddies, infact probably out does what most games like ever quest calls an expansion. Also if a COH subscriber, you have gotten 5 free expansions adding raising the level cap 10 levels, adding Peregrine island, RCS, striga island, croatoa, badges, portal corp missions, monsters and zone events, 2 new Archtypes, PVP arenas, and probably alot more im forgetting in the time COH has been out, before ever needing to "buy" a expansion. Also WoW is coming out with its first expansion in july, it is going to cost 40 dollars, add 1 map zone, raise the level cap and add 2 races if i am not mistaken. For almost the cost of the full game, and actually now 10 dollars more then the full game cost being the game is now at 30 bucks. In 18 months how many everquest expansions would you have to buy 2-3 probably at 30 a peice is more then COV and probably over all less content. IN SWG they have had 3 to purchase expansions and i believe only 1 free one.
All that aside, keep in mind all these games charge the same 15 a month fee. That fee is really for bandwidth and servers which are very very expensive on this scale. But since it was released i dont know of very many MMOs that have GIVEN away the level of expansion that COH has before ever putting out a for purchase expansion like COV. Though i share some concerns to the power sets and so forth seeming just to familar, im am in no way upset with my cov purchase or the amout of money i have spent on coh. I figured it out once, with DSL cost, the monthly service fee, when my first toon hit level 50 at 898 hours i had spend something like .37 cents an hour for my entertainment. Take almost 900 hours worth of movies, or diners, or bar hopping etc, and do you think you would come even close to that kinda of value doing anything else? And it was probably less since i had other toons at the time i just based it as if that is the only one i had played. So all things considered cryptic has earned my purchase of COV many times over in the amount of game play i have recieved.
It never ceases to amaze me... some people have such a ridiculous sense of entitlement that it sickens me. You don't wanna shell out the extra cash, THEN DON'T! Would you rather pay the $30 once and have to pay an extra monthly fee? I think I'd rather scrounge up the extra $20 once.
You talk about comparing the CoV launch to the CoH launch - well, you can't! The devs have had over a year and a half to learn what makes the game better and how to make fewer zones just as engaging. How much of a pricetag would you put on that?
No one is forcing you to buy the game, play what you want, but don't think you have a leg to stand on when it comes to deciding how to price the game. In the grand scheme of things, how big of a deal is it that its $50 and not $30, anyway? If it really made that big of a diffeence, then you probably shouldn't be paying for an online game anyway...
Biostem, it's not that I have a sense of entitlement. You just have low standards.
Your monthly fee goes towards game improvements. This launch should be compared to the coh launch.
And if I had the choice, yeah I would have just grabbed the game for 30 bucks and only gotten access to the villain side. You do realize you have to buy both games to get access to both sides, so the monthly fee alone doesn't do it.
If anyone else has anymore flawed logic, please share it with me.
6 zones
5 re-mixed ATs
4 'new' enemy npcs
3 unique powersets
0 Accolades
0 Items of Power
0 HO's for villains
K, now before I incur the wrath of the fanboy mafia, let me point out that I enjoy the game.
However, if I had been a subscriber to coh, I would not have shelled out 50 bucks for CoV. I was gone for a while, and so to me it was just like buying the game all over again. Not only that, but I think most people were under the impression that the content of CoV and the amount of programming involved in that content would match CoH when it launched.
It doesn't even come close. Let me cut off one response right now "but just wait they'll add stuff". My free month is up. I'm talking about comparing this to coh launch. I'm talking about what I already paid money for, not for what I will continue to pay money for. I can't exactly call them and tell them that they owe me free months until they add content now can I?
With that out of the way, let's talk pricing. Some people actually paid 70 bucks for CoV. Let's not talk about overseas shipping prices for now. $50 is the norm for a brand spanking not-a-copy-of-something-else new game. 20-30 is what an expansion will run you. And in the mmo world, both offer free month trials.
CoV was touted as a standalone game. Implication was that the newness would equal that of coh when it launched. But really, CoV is nothing but an expansion PRICED as a new standalone product. Less new programming went into the cov ATs than went into the FREE epic ATs CoH has.
Nice graphics btw. By far the biggest improvement, but the graphics engine is a clunker that makes me wonder if it was worth it. And since it doesn't really improve the way CoH looks (unless you have shaders 3.0), then I wonder if it was even necessary to "upgrade" the engine this way.
Not to mention this game loves to crash, and you can verify that at the tech issues forum.
I think the devs kind of need a wake up call. I think with what we paid for, each AT deserves at least one new powerset in both primary and secondary (in coh, they were all new), at least 4 new zones, and base raids functioning correctly with IOP's enabled, 2 more hero groups, and this WITHIN THE NEXT 30 DAYS.
Then they can worry about epic ATs, accolades, etc.
I'm not asking that much, I'm just asking to get the same amount of product by buying CoV as I did when I bought CoH.