Roleplayer's Guide to Fascism and Naziism
By
AmazingMOO,
Posted on: 2005-11-03 13:57 in Player Guides
I've noticed one place in the above text where the singular of the word 'Jews' is censored out. I'm not sure why. I know that it can be used as a racial slur when used as a verb, but...
Anyway, if you see a [CENSORED] tag in the above, please read it as 'Person of Hebrew Ancestry'.
Nice work... I like your summaries and the history behind them fior those interested in learning a bit of history. Hopefully this will "up" the role-playing tone in-game a bit. Five stars.
I have to agree, a very good overview!
Just to put things in the context of the game, it seems fairly clear to me that there aren't any real racist, Nazi-type groups depicted in CoH/CoV, although there's one instance where Nemesis apparently felt a parallel earth with few white inhabitants was a suitable proving ground for a doomsday device. It is conceivable that the 5th Column used racist propaganda as a recruiting tool, and brought on only physically fit white males, but this is never even hinted at in the game. (And can you blame the writers?) Crey, Nemesis, the Council, and Arachnos are all organizations with a Fascist/Totalitarian goal: placing the one person who is intelligent enough to run things properly in charge. Compare with some of the things Lord Recluse says about Fascism in Web of Arachnos!
Great overview of history, and very factual (at least as far as I remember my studies of history 
).
The effort!
Many good and useful things pointed out--particularly the phrase "Fascism was the [censored] child of Aristocracy and Capitalism"--but as a historian I have a few quibbles:
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The whole of Europe had recently watched two extremely bloody Socialist revolutions over a relatively short period. First, the peasants of France rose up and slaughtered the Nobility and the Rich in that country in massive numbers.
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I doubt the French Revolution (~1790s) weighed heavily on the minds of the elites of interwar Europe, because the elite (at least in the western half of Europe) at that point were the middle classes who that revolution had brought into power. The French event was also less of a peasant revolution than that of urban commoners (both middle and lower classes) who presided over the execution of the nobility. (That said, peasants participated in some cases in the massacres of priests, the other pre-revolutionary upper class.)
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This terrified people. The poor commoners could revolt, steal everything you owned, and then kill you and your family.
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Only if "people" and "you" belonged to a very small elite class.
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Like the lower-class Italians, the lower-class Germans swallowed Fascism hook, line, and sinker, even though they were really those Fascism targeted as its enemies.
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"Hook, line, and sinker" overstates the gullibility of the lower classes (I'm assuming you mean peasants and working classes). The Nazis drew their semi-popularity from all classes, from old Prussian aristocracrats to middle class factory owners to those destituted by the depression. Probably the most vigorous resistance to the Nazis came from organized workers (lower class people), since, as you pointed out, they understood that the National Socialists were utterly opposed to socialism.
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Eventually, in order to keep the government from dissolving altogether, the Parliament voted to appoint Adolph Hitler, as leader of the Nazi Party, to be leader of the government. He was sworn in as Chancellor in 1933.
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The elected president at the time appointed Hitler to the chancellorship, and he used constitutionally legal "emergency" powers available to that position to disband (and re-elect) the elected parliament, and then to further restrict democratic institutions.
I'd also argue that you underestimate the centrality of racism to the Nazi ethos, that it was crucial to convincing the populace to much of what the government did.
Looking forward to your next historical villain post.
We now return you to our regularly scheduled game... Have fun!
Hmmm...
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I have to agree, a very good overview!
Just to put things in the context of the game, it seems fairly clear to me that there aren't any real racist, Nazi-type groups depicted in CoH/CoV, although there's one instance where Nemesis apparently felt a parallel earth with few white inhabitants was a suitable proving ground for a doomsday device. It is conceivable that the 5th Column used racist propaganda as a recruiting tool, and brought on only physically fit white males, but this is never even hinted at in the game. (And can you blame the writers?) Crey, Nemesis, the Council, and Arachnos are all organizations with a Fascist/Totalitarian goal: placing the one person who is intelligent enough to run things properly in charge. Compare with some of the things Lord Recluse says about Fascism in Web of Arachnos!
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You're right. There was a mission in CoH where you had to rescue some potential 5th recruits. I've run that mission a few times and while this may have been a by-product of a random NPC generator, every time I did that mission, there were some dark-skinned recruits to be rescued. The 5th was never presented as a racist organization.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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The effort!
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Thanks. I enjoy writing, so it really wasn't much effort.
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Many good and useful things pointed out--particularly the phrase "Fascism was the [censored] child of Aristocracy and Capitalism"--but as a historian I have a few quibbles:
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Thanks for your insights on the history of the situation, particularly about the view on Socialism. I'll try to revise the guide to include edits based on those.
As for other historical villains... Not many people want to play old-west outlaws. I'm still in the process of learning about Japanese history, so I really can't make a guide on ronin samurai.
Many other 'Historical' regimes don't have quite the fantastic horror-story air that Hitler or the rest of the Axis leaders did. They're either still too recent or too obscure.
Most people playing COH today wouldn't care, for example, who Francisco Franco was, nor understand why it is a good thing that 'Francisco Franco is still dead!'
I don't see many people playing Khmer Rouge adherants either. Those who know and understand what Pol Pot did don't find much excuse to roleplay it.
I did, however, just see a level 2 corruptor named 'Il Duce' on Victory.
Excellent summary of fascism. Well done.
Absolutely one of the best posts I've ever read on these boards. Kudos.
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Many other 'Historical' regimes don't have quite the fantastic horror-story air that Hitler or the rest of the Axis leaders did. They're either still too recent or too obscure.
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Yeah. Notable exceptions (imo): (nobody expects the) Spanish Inquisition, Vlad "Dracula" Tepes, and Papa Doc (might be obscure to many though). Honourable mention: although not really the regime, Raputin's influence on the Romanovs has often been villainized into fantastic horror.
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I did, however, just see a level 2 corruptor named 'Il Duce' on Victory.
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No doubt inspired by the character of the same name on the movie The Boondock Saints.
Great movie, highly recommended by the way.
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'Prohibited' behavior will include any kind of immorality, non-Christian religious activities, any kind of labor union or Socialist activities, and any kind of non-state-sanctioned speech, such as illegal newspapers or radio broadcasts.
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I think you captured the Fascist fairly well, but I don't think you entirely gripped the nazi attachment to the religious. Mainly because it was highly inconsistent, as it had its root in heavily doctored versions of many highly diverse philosophies and beliefs.
A part (and an important part) of the nazi beliefs and religious doctrine came from Nietzsche (a by nietzsches sister heavily edited nietzsche), certain of Jungs ideas on psychology and merged it with the "jewish conspiracy" theory, coming to the conclusion that Christianity was a slave-religion constructed by the jews to "enslave the aryan spirit".
But on the other hand they were highly conservative and as such christianity had a role, or at least protestantism.
However the Catholic church was quite heavily persecuted.
Concerning the occult they were highly antagonistic against the various forms of "oriental occultism" that modern folklore associates with gypsies and witches as well as in Freemasonry, Rosicrucians etc etc.
All of these were persecuted not because they were non-christian, but because they were based in oriental occultism.
Occultism that had "teutonic" roots however were gobbled up hook, line and sinker, especially by the party elite, Hitler even tried to instate his own religion among the nazi loyalists based on nationalism, teutonic occultism and fascism.
As such I'd redefine the "typical nazi".
The typical nazi is almost without exception an overall hardline moral conservative (or will at least try to appear as one) with the possible exception of his/her views on nudity (The nazi ideology in general embraces naturalism, or at least did during the third reich).
Abberrant behaviors, homosexualism, prostitution and pornography are all heavily condemned (but as said by the OP, the "party line" and reality doesn't always mix). He's also quite sexist and believes that the woman is as the caretaker of the family while the man is the breadwinner and protector.
When it comes to religion his beliefs are not in organised religion as such but in the national spirit (the aryan spirit in general), a national spirit that MAY incorperate organised religion (most likely christianity) but can easily be a form of occultism or atheistic. As such the nazi invariably also views himself as a patriot.
A typical nazi is loyal to the group (the nazi party in general) and the groups ideals but not to the particular individuals in the group.
If a member displays weakness or incompetence he'll gladly cutthroat the individual (the weak does not deserve to live or rule).
If anyone diverges from the group ideals the typical nazi will report it to an authority figure. If he's living in a nazi/fascist state it will most likely be police or other goverment officials, while in a state that embraces communism, democracy and similar "weak" beliefs it will most likely be the leader of the local nazi political organisation, expecting the organisation to deal with the abberant.
The nazi belief can be summed up as Elitism, Authoritarianism, Nationalism, Might Makes Right and a belief in the Corperate state.
This was a fantastic Guide.
Even the comments from other posters were enlightening.
Centinull
Yeah, somehow the Khmer Rouge never acquired the bizarre evil-cool that is the Nazis. And that's good.
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Many other 'Historical' regimes don't have quite the fantastic horror-story air that Hitler or the rest of the Axis leaders did. They're either still too recent or too obscure.
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You're right about obscurity keeping most historical villains from fame. I blame the Hitler Cha--I mean, History Channel for showing WWII stuff ad nauseum. But there are hundreds of (interesting) villains that just don't get the infamy. You could pretty much take any empire from the past and find horrible acts they've perpetrated on their subjects and even citizens.
In Southern Africa: Cecil Rhodes (representing the British Empire, which probably invented concentration camps in Africa) or the Voortrekkers (the ancestors of Apartheid), or on the African side, Mzilikazi of the Ndebele, or Tshaka (or the less famous leaders Cetshwayo or Dingane) of the Zulu, all renowned violent empire builders.
Across Africa there were witches (*/poison?), witch-fighters, and rain-makers (Storm, anyone?).
In Central-East Africa: Mirambo or Tippu Tip both built trading and raiding empires that sold slaves, massacred elephants, and ran plantations to feed their armies. Henry Stanley, their contemporary who is so famous for the mild (and amusing) quip, "Dr. Livingstone, I presume," was a brutally cruel man who regarded shooting Africans as sport, and participated also in the slaving and raiding as he "explored" the center of the continent. The Belgian King Leopold, who set up the Congo Free State in part on the information from Stanley, put in place a regime that chopped the hands and heads off of the Congolese who refused or resisted enslavement in rubber harvesting or copper mines. Plenty of fantastic horror all round, there.
And I ain't even gone into the slightly more famous great Eurasian empires of the more distant past, Ghengis Khan, Tamurlane, the 'Abbasids, the Vikings, the Huns, the Romans, or the Persians, all of whom were quite villainous to some of their conquered. Or more recent villainous organizations, the CIA, the KGB, the Mossad, the PLO. All fertile ground for murderous sumb!tches.
*Runs to store to plunk down 50$ for CoV*
I'd like to nominate the Turks as a conquering group whose influence on history (especially military history) is under-studied in the West.
Aside from the terror Europeans felt of the Turkish empires in the Middle Ages, Turks (Turkic-speaking peoples of various sorts) probably formed an important part of Genghis Khan's "******" armies. And they remain one of the very, very few major ethnic/linguistic groups to have escaped being drawn into European and Asian empires; they even walked a narroew line of nominal independence during the Cold War.
Sailboat
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
A lot of people also forget or underestimate how much the Tsarists did to crush the area that westerners think of as Russia into submission and unification.
Catherine II (Catherine the Great) is a prime example of the old saw that 'History is written by the victor'.
The Turk: Europe's boogyman. A terror to everyone they "shared" a border with. Small wonder they spawned such a historically reviled figure to counter them: Prince Vladmir III of Walachia.
Better known as Vlad Teppes, or even better known as his fictionalized counterpart, Count Dracula.
Viewing his history with an understanding of how external forces recolor events, consider this sequence.
Young Vlad and his brother (Radu if I recall) are traded as hostages to the turk to free their father - leaving the boys captive .. in the Turkish court.. pretty pretty young boys. Vlad's father bends over for the Turks, until they decide he can't be trusted and have him killed. Vlad and his brother are released, and Vlad takes up his father's position - only Vlad begins to campaign fiercely against his former "hosts", very successfully (if brutally) by all acounts. So much so that he even uses the turkish trick of impaling enemy forces on large stakes (though as I understand it, he improved on it by blunting the stakes so as to not rupture the captives' organs, preventing them from dying too soon). Within his kingdom, he was considered a hero who held back the turk, whereas the more "civilized" western "press" for lack of a better word (there weren't proper newsservices per se) reviled him as a monster, ethnocentrically seeing only the results without understanding what he was fighting against. The king, apparently half fearing his popularity internally and half fearing the bad press he was generating externally, had Vlad locked up, and put Radu on the throne. Radu, who I can only surmise took his treatment from the turks differently than Vlad, made "peace" with the turk. From what I understand, the frontieer became destablizied, causing the king to reinstate Vlad, who, in the wake of a lifetime of betrayals, took once more to the battlefield to find his death.
Taken in context for his place in time, I see less of a monster, and more of a man who did a job besieged and betrayed by both enemies and allies alike. A saint? By no means. Mentally unstable? By the end, quite possibly. Bloodthirsty monster by modern standards, but by eastern-european standards at that time - eh, fair to middlin.
Take this all with a grain of salt - it's been a few decades since I read the research, and accounts from both sides of history are unreliable at best.
A little far back to go for villain background anyway. Current current...the Klan of course might make a decent villain background, though frankly, even someone "playing" at it is a dangerous road to set out on. MacCarthyites - American "fascists" as they meet most of the criteria set down. (fyi as I recall, the term fascist comes from I think "fasces" - a symbol of a bundle of sticks surrounding an axe and was part of the standard that Caesar marched back to Rome under when he took power).
Will think more on it, but great thread btw - thanks!
Cheers!
Engremore
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I'd like to nominate the Turks as a conquering group whose influence on history (especially military history) is under-studied in the West.
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Don't forget the "Holocaust" in Armenia, courtesy of the Turks. Not as well known as the Jewish Holocaust in WWII, but easily as horrifying.
Actually, that doesn't seem to do justice to Vlad's madness. And, no, even by the standards of that time, it was way over the top, and shocked most other European courts. (And those were no saints either.)
1. The _only_ chroniclers who wrote good of him were those in his own employ. You know, the equivalent of Mussolini's own newspaper writing good stuff about Il Duce. So saying that inside his own country he was a hero for his random executions and taking his own population into slavery... that's not quite proven. And considering how his reign ended, quite unbelievable.
2. I've mentioned taking his own population into slavery. Yes, the guy raided Tirgoviste, his capital city, and from the large mass of prisoners (defenseless civilians) taken he _killed_ the women, children and elderly. Then took the rest on a mountain top and made them work on a fortress. He told them that if it's not ready in a couple of weeks, he impales them all. It was ready by the deadline.
3. Vlad held court banquets in the middle of a small forest of impaled people, ranging from already rotting corpses to still screaming. One noble looked a bit sick from the horrid stench, so Vlad ordered him impaled too. He reckoned that on top of a stake he'd have more fresh air.
4. Social security during Vlad's reign: he announced a big meal for the beggars and crippled (no shortage of those with all the warring). Then he shut the doors and set the building on fire.
5. Two travelling monks got asked by Vlad if he's right in doing the massacres he does. One monk was smart enough to basically say that a ruler has the god-given right to do whatever he damn pleases. The second tried to diplomatically preach christian mercy and love for thy neighbour. The second got promptly impaled.
6. For that matter, the guy loved impaling ambassadors and emissaries on a whim. That's what made him hugely unpopular with the other European royal courts.
7. To get the throne (which at the time involved giving huge gifts and bribes to the Turkish court) he incurred a lot of debt to rich merchants and bankers. So at the start of his reign, he invited them to the court to repay them. You can guess where that led. Hint: wooden stakes. Lots of wooden stakes.
8. He went and besieged the rich trade city of Brasov, partially still because of those debts AFAIK. He couldn't take the city itself, but vented his frustration by impaling all defenseless peasants he could find on a wide radius around it.
9. He terrorized his own army, by impaling any soldier with a wound in the back, reckoning that they must have been cowards and ran from the enemy. The thought that in a wild and wooly melee, with flanking, encirclements people don't just stand neatly aligned front-to-front didn't occur to him.
10. One story typical of his regime is: while travelling he saw a peasant with a torn shirt. Vlad reckoned that the peasant's wife is lazy, so the sick woman got promptly seized by Vlad's troops and impaled.
And now for the end of his reign. It wasn't as much the Turks as his own country which revolted against him. Just shows how much of a "hero" he was inside his own borders.
An army led by Matthias Corvin of Hungary went to his aid, on account that the madman did keep the Turks away from Hungary. Upon hearing the long list of horrors that Vlad had done, Matthias changed his mind and imprisoned Vlad.
Some time later Matthias and Stephen The Great of Moldavia are having big trouble with the Turks again, so they aggree to put Vlad back on the Wallachian throne. For better or worse, the madman had proved extremely effective at fighting those. So the armies of Hungary and Moldavia march south, dispose of Radu, and put Vlad back on the throne.
Precisely because they knew that Vlad is _hated_ by his own population, he gets a company of elite Moldavian veterans to serve as his personal bodyguard. The madman however takes offense to being guarded by foreign soldiers, so he stages a night ambush (his favourite tactic against the Turks too) and kills them all.
Without them, a very short while later Vlad is killed by a Stalker... err... an assassin.
I really hate to jump in on someone's post (RedNosedMoo') to say something less than complimentary when practically everybody has knelt at his altar... But the truth and historical revisionism are at odds, and the OP is quoting historical revisionism.
The section on Mussolini is generally correct, however, the following is not:
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Instead, Fascism was the (...) child of Aristocracy and Capitalism-- Corporatism, rather. Those in power had a right to live at the expense of those less wealthy.
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Mussolini was the first to codify fascism as state control over the people for the benefit of the people with all final authority resting in one "supreme" figure. Had nothing to do with capitalism. Capitalism is the entirely free market force of public economics and was the target of both fascism and national socialism whenever it suited the purposes of either state (Germany or Italy).
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Fascism *was* diametrically opposed to Communism.
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This is a misleading statement and patently untrue when considering the qualifier "diametrically." Fascism was also the model of Stalinist Russia which was not a true communism. Remember, fascism = state authority residing ultimately in a leading figure, not the individual citizen (as in democracy or nominal communism). Since fascism was formulated politically by Mussolini, many historians will refer to his words on his idea of fascism. See here.
On the subject of Hitler and the National Socialists, the OP uses tidbits of history without any reference to PSDs (primary source documents) to support a picture of naziism that is not factually correct, but rather the current flavor of historical revisionism.
For example, he claims Hitler wasn't really a socialist because he fought the socialist uprisings in Bavaria. The OP neglects to mention that "socialists" was used as a blanket term that included Marxists. In the early 1900s, Marxism was the precursor to communism. See here. It is certainly true that Hitler hated communists. That does not, however, make him the exact opposite of communism or "psuedo-socialist." This was a very real power struggle between two conflicting power ideologies that were not so dissimilar except as to how power was relegated by the state. Whereas communism was nominally the power of the people to the state collectively for collectivism (to put it in a trite way), fascist socialism was the power of the state over the people for the welfare of the people, or socialism.
Hitler had this to say about communists: [ QUOTE ]
"I have learned a great deal from Marxism, and I do not hesitate to admit, that the difference between them and myself is that I have really put into practice what these peddlars and penpushers have timidly begin... National Socialism is what Marxism might have been if it could have broken its absurd and artificial ties with a democratic order." <Preussentum und Sozialismus>
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The OP made long post... I'll try to cut to the chase. The OP claims that Hitler was anything but a socialist, but refers to no documents - probably only what was heard on the History Channel. To understand where nazi political ideologies lay and to determine whether or not they were socialists requires a look at their doctrines and policies - without just claiming unsupported generalities. Following are the major platforms of the german National Socialist party and the policies they followed:
*WE DEMAND THAT THE GOVERNMENT UNDERTAKE THE OBLIGATION ABOVE ALL OF PROVIDING CITIZENS WITH ADEQUATE OPPORTUNITIES FOR EMPLOYMENT AND EARNING A LIVING. Equal Rights, Equal Opportunity Employment, Minimum Wage, Anti-trust - all socialist sacred cows.
*THE ACTIVITIES OF THE INDIVIDUAL MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO CLASH WITH THE INTERESTS OF THE COMMUNITY, BUT MUST TAKE PLACE WITHIN ITS CONFINES AND BE FOR THE GOOD OF ALL. Right out of the socialist handbook.
*WE DEMAND THE NATIONALIZATION OF ALL BUSINESSES WHICH HAVE BEEN AMALGAMATED (INTO TRUSTS). Very anti-capitalist. Nationalization of business is always communist or socialist.
*WE DEMAND THAT THE STATE SHALL SHARE IN THE PFOFITS OF LARGE INDUSTRIES. This alone qualifies National Socialism as socialism, and not "just in name only."
*WE DEMAND THAT PROVISION FOR THE AGED SHALL BE MADE ON A VERY GREATLY INCREASED SCALE. Nationalization of old folks homes. Only socialists make these demands.
*WE DEMAND A LAND-REFORM SUITABLE TO OUR NATIONAL REQUIREMENTS, THE PASSING OF A LAW FOR THE CONFISCATION OF LAND FOR COMMUNAL PURPOSES; THE ABOLITION OF INTEREST ON MORTGAGES, AND PROHIBITION OF ALL SPECULATION IN LAND. Very socialist fundamental belief - all land is at the disposal of the state.
*WE DEMAND AN AGRARIAN REFORM SUITABLE TO OUR NATIONAL REQUIREMENTS; THE ENACTMENT OF A LAW TO EXPROPRIATE WITHOUT COMPENSATION THE OWNERS OF ANY LAND THAT MAY BE NEEDED FOR NATIONAL PURPOSES; THE ABOLITION OF GROUND RENTS; AND THE PROHIBITION OF ALL SPECULATION IN LAND. Nationalization of farms... very anti-capitalist and only pursued in socialist or communist societies.
*...THE STATE SHALL ORGANIZE THOROUGHLY THE WHOLE CULTURAL SYSTEM OF THE NATION . . . THE CONCEPTION OF THE STATE IDEA (THE SCIENCE OF CITIZENSHIP) SHALL BE TAUGHT IN THE SCHOOLS FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. WE DEMAND THAT SPECIALLY TALENTED CHILDREN OF POOR PARENTS, NO MATTER WHAT THEIR STATION OR OCCUPATION, SHALL BE EDUCATED AT THE COST OF THE STATE. Thought control, also known as political correctness. Believe what the state tells you - freedom of thought is discouraged.
*IT IS THE DUTY OF THE STATE TO HELP RAISE THE STANDARD OF THE NATION'S HEALTH BY PROVIDING MATERNITY WELFARE CENTRES, BY PROHIBITING JUVENILE LABOUR, BY INCREASING PHYSICAL FITNESS THROUGH THE INTRODUCTION OF COMPULSORY GAMES AND GYMNASTICS. . . . Only socialist and communist governments baldly declare to know how to raise all children.
* (WE) COMBAT THE MATERIALISTIC SPIRIT WITHIN AND OUTSIDE US, AND ARE CONVINCED THAT A PERMANENT RECOVERY OF OUR PEOPLE CAN ONLY PROCEED WITHIN ON THE FOUNDATION OF "THE COMMON GOOD BEFORE THE INDIVIDUAL GOOD." I'm not sure how anyone can read this and still say that the nazis were capitalists. Such claims are ignorant. This last statement is socialist to its core - the state knows better than the individual.
---- From the "Twenty-Five Point" Programme of the German National Socialist Workers Party, authored by Adolf Hitler and others. (Konrad Heiden's translation in A History of National Socialism)
Many revisionists conveniently use modern terms to justify their re-write of history. For example, Mussolini and Hitler could say that they hated liberals. Yet the modern term bears no relation to their use in the classical term. Today we think of liberal as left wing, socialists. Back then, they referred to classical liberals - those who held forth that personal liberties and freedoms from the state were paramount considerations. Such classical liberalism is very anti-socialist.
The OP states that because Hitler and Mussolini strove against socialists that they must not therefore be socialists. As I said (and any reading of political terms of the times - consider Mussolini's writings) socialists came in several brands. Striving against socialists who were marxists makes sense to a fascist - since the power struggle was in how power was delegated and held. Hitler and Mussolini jailed people not because they were of opposite ends of the political spectrum, but because anyone who presented a threat to the perceived power was a threat to fascism.
Some more Hitler quotage:
"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler (Speech of May 1, 1927. Quoted by Toland, 1976, p. 306)
Many might say that nazis couldn't be socialists because they fought against the labor unions. Unfortunately, such a statement glosses all the details of the political reality into a broad brush that sounds right but means nothing. Hitler strove against the labor unions because they were led by marxists. Again, we face the reality of the political situation and the relationship of power. Hitler would have jailed anyone that threatened his power and in so doing didn't make him not what he was. Remember the SA? When the labor unions interfered with the anti-capitalistic nationalization of industries, Hitler jailed them.
Hitler's incessant use of "bourgeois" and the constant reference to the "class struggles" in Mein Kampf are telling enough of his political leanings. See here. Hitler's background and goals were entirely socialist. His domestic policies, once in power, centered around price controls, central planning, expanded government welfare and government work programs, nationalized health care, pay equalization, etc.
These are the absolute antithesis of capitalism and freedom. There is nothing difficult here. Socialism is the antithesis of individual freedom. Left wing socialist politics pursues the expression of society as a whole. Right wing capitalist politics expresses the total freedom of the individual against the state.
Hitler was a socialist. To claim otherwise is to ignore and re-write history. Even Time Magazine in the 30s labeled Hitler a left wing socialist. I was really brief. For far more detailed infor go HERE.
As to roleplaying a national socialist... there is nothing inherently evil in national socialism. In fact, it's a great system, if you like socialism. Of course, I am talking about the politics and not the deluded racism that attached to naziism. National socialists believe in a strong state, protective of its people in the socialist manner, and proud of its heritage. It can and should be roleplayed without the racism. "Our nation, above all, for the good of the people."
Fascism is a strong government of almost any stripe (left or right wing) where power resides at the state level and culminating finally in one individual. "Follow the leader and follow orders."
Out of curiosity, what do you (any of you have studied History) know of Hitler's ties to the Thuul/Thule/Tuul/Toure Society? ((For easy, I'll refer to it as the Thuul Society.)) Are they actual traced connections, rumors expounded on by occultists and writers, or purely fiction?
According to some research I've done, the Thuul Society was an occult group espousing Aryanism as the divine will of their master on the Isle of Thuul. Hitler joined at some point before being elected leader of the Nazi party, and it is from the Thuul Society, according to this research, that Hitler recieved his control. After becoming leader of the Nazi Party, he killed the chairman of the Society and assumed control for himself.
Are these actual traces? I would very much appreciate some confirmation of this. ^_^
"Some people wrestle with their inner demons. I stabbed mine in the back of the head. He was a bleeder." - Black Mage
"We've trained you better than for you to use excuses like 'I didn't have control over what I was doing!'" - Major Tasker, Longbow
I'd like to thank everyone for their input and information, whether they agree with each other or not on the subject matter.
I once played an Anti-Hero who was formerly part of the 5th Column, who still had a "strong-should-rule" mentality. I did it for the challenge of such a dark character. The trouble was people mistook me, the player, as a racist even though my character was not racist. Some people seem to have a hard time seperating real life from the game, I suppose.
If i ever revisit the character (deleted from frustration) I'll keep this post in mind and the excellent informatioin provided by everyone involved.
I'm also curious about the Thuule (spelling?) Society. It was part of my character's background but I'd like to know more about the reality.
Thanks to the OP and everyone involved. Excelent work.
Ares Wolf
Controller
Spider Shade
Tank
Jackal Kane
Mastermind
Virtue Server
As someone has already pointed out, this analysis is incorrect. The Nazis were socialists. And, in literally every way, they are quite similar to the Soviet Communists.
The Nazis and Fascists (Fascism and Socialism are the same, as I'll demonstrate) hated the Soviets and the Communists not because they were socialists. They hated them for the same reason liberals hate religion and conservatives in America - they hate competition. And Hitler's own views naturally coincided with his own extreme nationalist goals. As a socialist himself, he agreed with the tenets of communism except for one or two critical things. He was interested in GERMANY ruling the world. Communism is all about Communism ruling the world. Hitler dreamed of a thousand-year Reich where only Nazi Germans ruled, and the communists represented a competitor in that goal. Communists want to ensnare the world in their own breed of totalitarianism which is virtually identical to what the Nazis achieved. You might think that the communists were more egalatarian in their goals, but that's not really true, and in order for both systems of totalitarianism to grow and thrive, they must endeavor to separate the masses into class, race, ethnicity, religion, and whatever else in order to pit one group against another. For the Nazis, it was "the Jews and non-Aryans against the Aryan races." For the Soviets, it was the "rich capitalist stooges versus the workers."
The common thread of socialism, communism and fascism (all of which are the same) is the primacy of the state over the individual.
Understanding Naziism and Fascism for purposes of Roleplay in City of Heroes and City of Villains.
I've noticed a somewhat disturbing trend in the last few weeks as more player villains are created and existing storylines from the game are revisited in order to provide source material for player characters. This problem extends beyond the Rogue Islands to Paragon City, especially as heroes try to roleplay against the Council (or Fifth Column) as enemies.
Many players are really confusing the difference between Nazis and Fascists. They are often misquoting, misrepresenting, or not really understanding the agendas of those groups, or the agenda of the groups historically in opposition to them.
I am only a casual student of history, but I thought that I would share a bit of my knowledge and research with other players in order to enhance their roleplay experience.
If you're a roleplayer, don't let me discourage you from roleplaying however you want to. I offer this as a clarification of real-world history. Your character's history or the history of "City of Heroes and Villains" world may be significantly different than this history.
Please understand that I'm going to very frankly discuss two of the worst, most monstrous regimes in the history of mankind. I do not support those belief they espoused, nor would I encourage anyone else to. Racism and Totalitarianism are repugnant and evil in all their forms.
Whatever else you read here, please remember the following:
Regardless of the slant you've heard from news, grandparents, great-grandparents, or politicians, neither Naziism nor Fascism were primarily opposed to Democracy, Federalism, nor Capitalism. If anything, they embraced Capitalism. First and foremost, the Nazis and Fascists hated Socialists and Communists.
Most people remember that Nazi Germany's largest sin was the Holocaust against the Jews. Remember that this was the personal agenda of Adolph Hitler, precipitated by a relatively small number of powerful people. It was popular to an extent. The Jews made easy scapegoats to a public prepared to demonize them. It was not, however, the major feature of either Naziism or Fascism.
Hitler and Anti-Semitism:
In the aftermath of the 'Great War', World War I, Germany was a broken country. As part of the Treaty of Versailles, which marked the end of the war, Germany was forced to accept total responsibility for the war despite the fact that it really started because of tensions in what is now Yugoslavia and Serbia-Montenegro. Germany attempted to use the war as an excuse for a landgrab and this behavior was severely punished by the victor nations.
Germany was also experiencing the ravages of the Great Depression. Unemployment, homelessness, and poverty were very common. As a consequence, corruption, prostitution, and other crime was rampant.
A young man who fought in the war, Adolph Hitler, was very, very bitter about these circumstances. His country had been crushed, and, as history would show, Adolph Hitler was particularly unstable. Before he began military service, he couldn't stay in school and was frequently homeless.
Adolph began to subscribe to the theories of a certain Lanz Liebenfels, who was a notorious racist anti-semite (he hated Jews). Adolph easily made the mental leap between blaming his own and his country's problems on real world events and started blaming them on Jewish people, who were stereotypically portrayed as shrewd, greedy businessmen.
He, like many others at the time, also acquired the very fervent belief that Liberals and Socialists had betrayed Germany by surrendering in the war.
Moussolini vs. the Communists:
About this same time, Benito Moussolini was gaining popularity in Italy. Italy wasn't doing quite as bad as Germany in the Great Depression, but it was suffering. Italy hadn't done well in the Great War and was split by ideological debate. Many people felt like civil war was looming. It wasn't pretty.
Fascists wanted a strong central government to take control of everything in the country. They were very pro-war. They wanted to make the other countries deal with them in an equitable fashion and seize resources outside Italy. Socialists wanted more control in the hands of labor unions and the common people. They had had enough of war. It only served to make the rich richer by sacrificing the lives of poor soldiers.
Benito Mussolini was one of the editors of an anti-socialist newspaper, He had actually been a Socialist leader before, but switched sides. He felt especially betrayed that Italy had entered WWI on the side of Britain and France-- France being *very* socialist compared to other European nations.
After the war, he organized a militia of war veterans to terrorize the country, attacking Communists and Socialists in particular. He helped break labor strikes, which made him popular with the Industrialists and farmers. Italy's very liberal government at the time couldn't really do anything to stop him. Benito was very charismatic and very popular.
Eventually, he organized what he called a 'March on Rome' and cowed the King of Italy into declaring him Prime Minister.
Benito's new government was based on the premise that the elite should rule. The elite in business, knowledge, military, culture, and religion should reign over everyone else.
This was immensely popular. Those who had time and weren't busy working around the clock to care for their families really liked this idea. It meant that the rich and wealthy were powerful and stayed powerful.
Fascism was *not* a system of oppression, nor did it particularly attack any given race of people. Jews certainly weren't popular, but everyone in Europe wanted to pick on the Jews.
Instead, Fascism was the [censored] child of Aristocracy and Capitalism-- Corporatism, rather. Those in power had a right to live at the expense of those less wealthy.
Fascism *was* diametrically opposed to Communism. The whole of Europe had recently watched two extremely bloody Socialist revolutions over a relatively short period. First, the peasants of France rose up and slaughtered the Nobility and the Rich in that country in massive numbers. Just before the war, the Russians had also very violently slain most of their nobility and rich and adopted a Communist government.
This terrified people. The poor commoners could revolt, steal everything you owned, and then kill you and your family.
Benito still had his newspaper and was truly excellent at spreading propaganda. Even those in Italy who *were* poor commoners were worried about Communism.
Mussolini understood that information is power. He instituted strict censorship laws so that he could control what the people of Italy heard and knew. He also altered the way elections were run so that he would always be in power. He and his cronies began to popularize the idea of 'Il Duce' -- Benito as a godlike man who was so far above other people that they could always trust him to rule the country.
Hitler vs. The Socialists
One of Hitler's last duties as a member of the German Army was to fight against socialist uprisings in and around Germany, particularly in Bavaria. He was assigned by his superiors to infiltrate the German Worker's Party, a Socialist labor union. He continued this infiltration even after he was no longer part of the military.
Despite his instability, Hitler was, like many madmen, very charismatic. He said and did the things that sane men would only dream about. He maneuvered his way to absolute control of the Worker's Party through lawsuits, cronyism, and threats of violence.
Hitler was voted in as 'Leader' or 'Fuhrer' of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei -- The Germany National Socialist Worker's Party-- by its members, approximately 550 of them. He had effectively subverted the largest socialist organization in the country. It's detractors, including Socialists and those opposed to Hitler, abbreviated Nationalsozialistische Arbeiterpartei to 'Nazi Party'. It was a play on 'Sozi', which was the derogatory word of choice to describe Socialists.
Hitler went berserk with power almost immediately, trying to bend the entire Bavarian region to his will. He preached against Jews and incidentally about the evils of Liberalism and Socialism. He and his friends admired Mussolini and attempted a 'March on Berlin'. After a short spate of violence, Hitler managed to get several of his friends shot, injured, killed, and most definitely arrested by the German Army. He himself was arrested for Treason, and dictated the infamous racist manuscript 'Mein Kampf' while in prison.
Hitler was considered relatively harmless and was released from prison fairly early. (Isn't that rather sad?) Because it was no longer really a 'Socialist' organization, the Nazi Party had almost completely evaporated in his absence. Hitler tried to rebuild it as an almost entirely racist organization devoted to oppressing Jews. This didn't work very well. Instead, once again, he adopted the view and ideas espoused by Mussolini and rebuilt it as a much more Fascist organization that directly opposed the very Liberal German government of the time. Hitler's obsessive hatred of Jews dovetailed fairly easily with his new Fascist message. Stealing another play from Mussolini's book, he began to do his best to spread his message to poor farmers, war veterans, and laborers.
Like the lower-class Italians, the lower-class Germans swallowed Fascism hook, line, and sinker, even though they were really those Fascism targeted as its enemies. With Hitler's charisma and propaganda at work, they even bought into an unhealthy amount of his racism.
More and more Nazis were being elected to the German Parliament and the government was growing more and more unstable despite the fact that the country was starting to recover from losses from World War I and the Great Depression.
Eventually, in order to keep the government from dissolving altogether, the Parliament voted to appoint Adolph Hitler, as leader of the Nazi Party, to be leader of the government. He was sworn in as Chancellor in 1933.
(It's often said that people should remember that Hitler was elected. This is not strictly speaking true. He was only elected in a parliamentary sense.)
His new government began instigating Fascist controls almost immediately, building up the same kind of censorship and propaganda network that had proven so successful for Mussolini. Socialists of any kind were given the boot (or blade) and Hitler restarted his own personal campaign against Jews.
Hitler and the Nazi party focused on a series of public works, such as highway construction and bridge building. They also espoused fervent religious belief and participation. Hitler implemented conservative policies that encouraged men to be 'Breadwinners' and women to be involved in family and religion. Jews, homosexuals, socialists and other undesireables were to be excluded from Germany's glorious future.
Adolph and Benito 2-Gether-4-Ever
Hitler and the Nazi Party's control over German society quickly grew to be almost complete.
In 1936 Mussolini met with Hitler and suggested an alliance between the Italy and Germany. Hitler gladly agreed to become part of the 'Steel Axis'. Hitler had already begun to flex his new military power, and Mussolini had been building his up all along. They reinforced each others' ideas and ambitions.
Fascism and Naziism were about to make life very, very difficult for the great majority of Europeans, and even Americans and Asians. To those outside Europe 'Fascist' was a word for 'Totalitarian Aggressor' and 'Nazi' meant '[censored]-hater'.
Even after Hitler and Mussolini were gone, Naziism and Fascism lived on. Naziism lost most of its Fascist backing and became primarily a racist movement. Fascism merely lost its name. It's spread far and wide under the guises of 'Corporatism' and 'Fundamentalist Religion'.
Even many modern Americans, Asians, and Europeans embrace the ideals of Fascism, although they would never dream of calling it by that name. To certain sectors of our society, Fascism remains very attractive, just as in Mussolini's day. It means that the elite in business, knowledge, religion, the military, and politics control the country.
Summary
Naziism
Proponent of:
- Censorship
- Information Control
- Religious Belief
- Racism
- Sexism
- Industrialism
- Expansionism
Opponent of:
- Jewish or Hebrew heritage or faith
- Socialism, Communism, or Marxism in any form.
- Liberalism in any form
Fascism
Proponent of:
- Censorship
- Information Control
- Religious Belief
- Industrialism
- Corporatism
- Expansionism
Opponent of:
- Labor Unions
- Socialism, Communism, or Marxism is any form.
- Liberalism in any form.
Roleplaying with or against Nazis:
A 'typical' Nazi character is going to be defined far more by his sense of patriotism than an obsessive hatred of Jews or Hebrew culture. He will be loyal to Hitler-era Germany or Hitler's dream of an Aryan-dominated empire. He will probably act derisively towards Jews, or any other non-white race for that matter. If he affects a religion, it will probably be Christianity. A 'good' Nazi believes in the power and righteousness of a military-dominated state. Any sort of behavior considered immoral by very conservative standards will be strictly taboo, such as homosexuality, prostitution, or pornography, (Of course these behaviors will still be wide spread... just secret and shameful to talk about.)
Many Nazis will also be quite sexist. Women are not meant to work outside the home according to Nazi doctrine. They are meant to be submerged in the '3 Ks' -- Kitchen, Kinder, Kurche. If women are not cooking for their men, they should be taking care of the children, or active in the church.
'Good' Nazis trust the state. They will immediately report any sign of 'prohibited' behavior to an authority figure. 'Prohibited' behavior will include any kind of immorality, non-Christian religious activities, any kind of labor union or Socialist activities, and any kind of non-state-sanctioned speech, such as illegal newspapers or radio broadcasts.
Roleplaying with or against Fascists:
Like Nazis, a 'typical' Fascist is going to be concerned much more by patriotism and nationalism than any other feature. This may be expressed as loyalty to Mussolini's government, or to a modern government dominated by very conservative interests or religious interests. A Fascist will be slightly more Libertarian than a Nazi. He will still believe in the power of the state, but will expect less involvement with his personal life. Fascists certainly aren't immune to racism or anti-semitism by any means, but it probably won't be one of their primary concerns.
A Fascist's primary concerns would be any kind of labor union, any kind of socialist or communist activity, and preserving strict distinctions between upper and lower classes. Any given fascist will imagine himself as part of the upper class despite his actual status. The 'real' upper classes will be captains of industry, prominent religious leaders, politicians, and police and military officials. Cronyism is a given in any situation.
A Fascist is also going to be fairly concerned with squelching crime, organized or not, and any kind of rebellious or seditious activity, since they threaten the status-quo. News or radio that is not controlled by the state would be strictly prohibited.
Fascists will also oppose any kind of social reform as unnecessary, unethical, or immoral.
Supporters of Mussolini's government would almost certainly espouse Roman Catholic beliefs.
In summary, please let me remind everyone reading this that ANY extreme form of government or system of laws can be used to oppress people. This is especially true if racism, religious discrimination, or really any of kind of inequality is present. Fascism and Naziism represent one end of a spectrum-- the extreme end of the bell curve, if you will. The majority of the people who supported these movements were not monsters themselves-- although their leaders could certainly be characterized that way. They were 'normal' people who were caught up in a monstrous movement.