Roleplayer's Guide to Fascism and Naziism
By
AmazingMOO,
Posted on: 2005-11-03 13:57 in Player Guides
A few additional comments:
The Nazi approach to religion was... wonky. While I'm pretty sure they were ostensibly christian, they borrowed ALOT of myth from paganism, and they seemed on the verge of creating their own state mythology/religion. While they were religious, it wasn't in the sense that we usually percieve it as. Religion was almost a form of patriotism to them.
Their sexism can't be overstated. Women existed to give birth to the next generation of Aryan children. They were breeding machines. Good women accepted that and fell into line. There was even a breeding program.
Mussolini wasn't too fond of jews either. It featured less in their early stuff (and he even had a [censored] on staff who did alot of his propoganda work), but they become more vocal about it later on. This might have been because of Germany, however.
RE: Socialism vs Fascism. They are indeed two opposite poles. Fascism believes in the supremacy of the state. By everyone coming together, they could create something greater than themselves. Everyone for the nation.
Communism, really, had to do with tearing down all power structures that could possibly exploit anyone... including government. First, communists would dismantle the corporations and religions (both of which "enslave" the masses) and then dismantle itself, letting people live as they will. It's kind of a benevolent anarchy, really. "The nation for everyone."
The problem is, in practice, they look exactly the same because the Communist government just never gets around to dismantling itself (surprise of surprises) and the Fascist government needs to justify itself by helping the people with expensive, centralized programs. In other words, they loop around so far to the left and right that they kinda meet in the middle.
But, idealogically, they hate each other.
Someone I read put it well when he remarked the differences were "In communism, the government take all the industrial leaders out back and shoots them. In fascism, the government takes all the industrial leaders out for dinner... where they're told if they don't fall into line, they'll be taken out back and shot."
It's a fine line. I kinda think China crossed it when they gave up all pretenses to a communist economy and continue to maintain a strict oligarchy propped up by massive propoganda. But anyway.
One would assume that the borrowed/"created" mythos would be the Church of Thuul's myths. :-)
However, nobody's answered my questions. So I don't know.
"Some people wrestle with their inner demons. I stabbed mine in the back of the head. He was a bleeder." - Black Mage
"We've trained you better than for you to use excuses like 'I didn't have control over what I was doing!'" - Major Tasker, Longbow
To answer your question. there is no or little documented proof that survived WWII that hitler was or ever received backing form a group known as the thuul society.
that being said it is widely conjectured and a well documented fact in history. (revisionist or otherwise) that Hitler had a mad(to use the term loosely) obsession with the occult. it is also speculated much that he did indeed recieve backing and support from the thuul society which enabled him via back room politics and out right threats to assume the position of prime minister and eventually Der Fuhrer.
Some speculation exists that if the thuul society ahd withdrawn its support from him at this time then he would not have been able to continue with his rise to power. but it remians speculation to this day. as he did eventually assassinate the head of the thuul society and placed himself in position of leader.
there are some more clear and better documented books on the subject on the web i reccomend looking them up and then desciding for yourself what is true or not.
also the connection between Hitler and the thuul society is used quite frequently as fodder for numerous science fiction stories. most recently Hellboy (great film loads of fun 
))
hope that helps a little.
also to the OP great post a few minor quibs with some of the comparisons but all told well thought out and written.
I just want to add to it one small bit. many historical accounts fail to, or blatantly do so. to make the distinction between nazis and the common footsoldiers that fought in WWII. the soldiers of the german army were for the majority of them common men drafted or conscripted especially later in the war. into service for Naziism using the excuse that fatherland was in dire peril. ((side bar anyone notice yet another opposition view between socialism and communism? the concept of the fatherland in germany as opposed to the motherland in russia)) Whilst a good many of the officer corp did express openly the views of naziism many were really only paying lipservce to those ideals.
it was mostly only hardline groups such as the SS and the gestapo that included hard corp naziism as a precept of acceptance within the ranks. ask a common man what he thought of naziiism he probbaly would have said I dont like it but it pays the bills. ask him as a recognized SS member and hed quote you the nazi ideals saying its the best thing to ever happen to germany.
just some food for thought. a nod to the german soldiers who sacrificed as much if not more in some ways as any american soldier did in WWII to defend there home from foriegn invaders. amazing how the perception can become lost to past.
and kinda scary how we can draw certain comparisons to a certain republicans rise to the presidency and his views on social politics and religion as well as his use of an attack by nebulous foreign foes as an excuse to launch his own war.
again some food for thought and a call ot remember the past and its lessons as well as those who have sacrificed all, and who this day continue to sacrifice all over in Iraq for our freedom to have these discussions. my prayers are with them.
So you mean you'll put down your rock, and I'll put down my sword; and we'll try and kill each other like civilized people?
Dubbed first knight of pep-istan by her majesty Queen Pepcat. first catmonaut to walk onna moon.
PENGUIN!!!...(^)>
...............C(...)D
.................m.m
Shank you wif a shiv. :-P Er, Thank You.
Yes, Hellboy (and an anime...won't say which) is where I gleaned the name from. Dug around on Google a bit, found some stuff that all said pretty much that. But I wanted to double-check. ^_^
"Some people wrestle with their inner demons. I stabbed mine in the back of the head. He was a bleeder." - Black Mage
"We've trained you better than for you to use excuses like 'I didn't have control over what I was doing!'" - Major Tasker, Longbow
Most evidence suggests that Hitler was not a member of the Thule Society. Some, however, does suggest that one of his early speaking coaches, a man named Dietrich Eckart, was a constant and devout member. Interestingly, one of Hitler's writings was devoted to Eckart.
The Thule Society merged with a worker's rights party to become the DAP in 1919, turning into the NSDAP (more often known as Nazi) group in 1920. Given that Hitler wasn't really introduced to the DAP until later 1919, and at the behest of the German government (as a 'police spy'), it's hard to see him as the mastermind of some elaborate scheme to get rid of the Thule group - although, once he was in power, it's well documented that Hitler attempted to rid his image of any superstituous occult stuff.
Here are some good resources for roleplaying with these themes:
GURPS World War II: Weird War II
Cuts to the chase. All the superheroistic ruminations you could want and more about the occult and supernatural, secret superscience, grand conspiracies and implications for modern era campaigns.
GURPS WWII, Iron Cross
For all those German supersoldiers that were in the war. This is what it was like written from a perspective useful for roleplayers. Also see "Dog Faces" for the U.S. perspective, "All The Kings Men" for the British, "Grim Legions" for the Italians, and "Surrender Monkeys" for the French. I kid, I kid. "Return to Honor" for the French. You'll be surprised just how tough they were. Also "Hand of Steel" for a brief look at commandos.
The Oxford Companion to World War II
Covers everything from politics to economics to science to individual battles and campaigns in organized as a small encyclopedia). This is just good general information and a great primer so you can quickly, authoritatively, fact check grandiose historical claims made on internet forums. A good rule of thumb is that people who use the word revisionist are the revisionists. It's a red flag holds up well historically and in contemporary politics.
The Encyclopedia of Weapons of World War II
Not so useful here but listed for completeness sake.
MacDonald's Great Battles of World War II
Ditto. Both this and the Encyclopedia offer wonderfully helpful visuals along with casual historian friendly text and context.
But the real ugly underbelly of what Nazism was about and why much of society gleefully participated, and just who (the working class, small business or big industry) was most helpful to Hitler is covered in great detail the authoritative study, "12-Year Reich: A Social History of Nazi Germany" by Richard Grunberger.
This is more for those seriously interested in the subject than casual roleplayers but, things being the way they are, it'd likely open eyes in quite a big way. When I studied this in college I went from thinking about Nazis as cartoon villains to a serious lesson and earnest warning about the nature of power and propaganda. Remember, the Germans voted the Nazis into power.
Hitler was, simply put, a psychopath and surrounded himself with other psychopaths.
I mean in the medical meaning of the world, and not the popular "axe murderer" use of the word. A psychopath is, basically, someone for whom everyone else doesn't matter. A psychopath can rationalize _anything_, from destroying somone's life, up to genocide. (As Hitler for example did.) One psychopath has argued that abusing children for non-consentual sex is a victimless crime and should be regarded as just normal, for example. _That_ kind of being able to rationalize anything.
They can tell any lie with a straight face, because they just lack that "omg, this is wrong, I can't do this to this nice guy" reflex. Anything that gets you to do what they want you to do is fair game and normal. E.g., a characteristic of psychopaths is reinventing their past to milk the most sympathy, admiration, or whatever they want to go for. This ability and willingness to manipulate can make them _extremely_ charismatic.
So a psychopath could end up a mass-murderer, yes, but equally well a successful politician or a CEO that Wall Street _loves_. There are quite a few up in the top of western capitalist societies, just as communists too had their own share of them at the top.
And here's what this rant is getting at: it's hard to say if he was really socialist or ultra-capitalist or whatever. Most likely he was neither. He most likely only believed in one thing, and nothing else: making himself an emperor. That's all.
To that end, he just told people what he thought they wanted to hear, and in the way that made them most likely to swallow it without thinking. (Read Mein Kampf. It contains occasional stuff like how he discovered it's best to have meetings when people are tired, so they don't think much about what they're told.)
Even the anti-semitism, that was just a prop.
To a nation that was just about fed up with being crapped on by the ones at the top, how do you sell the idea that they must give more power to them? How do you make them unconditionally follow the same factory owners they hated? Easy. Sell them a lie like "See, that's only so bad because they're Jews. If you sell your liberty to good ol' Aryans instead, those will take good care of you. You'll see."
Plus, giving people an enemy is good for consolidating your own power. And the Nazi propaganda _always_ had a convenient arch-enemy that all good men should unite against. If it wasn't the Jews, it was the French, or the Communists, or even the church, or whatever. There always was someone else to divert attention to, someone else to blame.
At any rate, he just told people whatever got him more popularity. That's all.
In the impoverished Germany of, say, 1927, yeah, socialist speeches and the pretense of staying a socialist party made him more popular. You can bet that that wasn't what he told the factory owners at that very same time.
And to claim that his totalitarian oppression had _anything_ to do with actually believing in socialism, that's outright laughable. We're talking a regime where you could be executed for as little as missing a day at work, for crying out loud. How's that socialist?
It may come as a surprise to an American, but the underlying theme of socialism _isn't_ "I know, let's take freedoms away and be as inconsiderate as to stop billionaires from buying another yacht". The whole theme is caring for your fellow human, and believing that a society is defined by how it cares for its _least_ fortunate members, not by how great it is for the top 10 billionaires.
So I fail to see how the brutal oppression in Nazi Germany can be seen as having anything to do with believing in socialism. No, seriously. Mind boggles.
[ QUOTE ]
At any rate, he just told people whatever got him more popularity. That's all.
[/ QUOTE ]
Making statements of finality with no references are as useful as claiming sneezing causes global warming, and "that is all." While Hitler lied to serve his sick purposes, he also pursued a set of goals, not just whatever was "popular" with the people. I can't believe I'm even having to say this.
[ QUOTE ]
And to claim that his totalitarian oppression had _anything_ to do with actually believing in socialism, that's outright laughable. We're talking a regime where you could be executed for as little as missing a day at work, for crying out loud. How's that socialist?
[/ QUOTE ]
You have zero understanding of socialism. The power of the state for the good of the people is supreme. Challenge the state, and you are punished. I can't believe I'm even having to say this.
[ QUOTE ]
It may come as a surprise to an American, but the underlying theme of socialism _isn't_ "I know, let's take freedoms away and be as inconsiderate as to stop billionaires from buying another yacht". The whole theme is caring for your fellow human, and believing that a society is defined by how it cares for its _least_ fortunate members, not by how great it is for the top 10 billionaires.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, you have zero understanding on something yet present it as fact. Did this come from a comic book? It sure sounds like it. For what socialism really is in concise terms even a comic book reader could understand, go HERE.
[ QUOTE ]
So I fail to see how the brutal oppression in Nazi Germany can be seen as having anything to do with believing in socialism. No, seriously. Mind boggles.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, seriously. My mind boggles at the ability of the information society mind to get something so completely wrong. You casually discard the historical record of domestic and social policies of national socialism in Germany and make revisionist pronouncements with no supporting historical reference. Ignore history, lie about it and say "that's all"?
That silliness wins no arguments with me.
History shows with no doubt that Hitler was a SOCIALIST. Get over it.
You should check your sources better.
The Library of Economy and Liberty is an arm of The Liberty Fund. The Liberty Fund is a foundation put together by Pierre Goodrich, Jr to promote and propagate libertarian ideals. Not a bad thing, mind you, but hardly an unbiased source.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
Now here we see a more complex view of socialism that includes the origins and views of Goodrich's factors but also the richer complexities of the philosophy. Both benevolent and malevolent.
They say about the Nazis.
[ QUOTE ]
The German Nazis ("National Socialists") used the word "socialist" in their official name, but most scholars argue that this was done purely for propaganda purposes and that they tended to adopt either a pro-worker or pro-business line depending on the given audience. The Nazis did demand some nationalization of big industries and land reform before their rise to power. However, once in power, they allowed (friendly) capitalists to thrive while liquidating socialists everywhere (including from within their own party in the Night of the Long Knives). Socialists reject the racialist theories and totalitarianism of the Nazis, while Nazis rejected the internationalism, egalitarianism and social class-oriented perspective of the socialists. (See: Nazism and Socialism).
[/ QUOTE ]
And there you have it.
No. What you describe as "socialism" is just a generic totalitarian regime, as exemplified for example by the Soviet "socialism" (or what their communism perverted the term to mean), but then again any other kind of totaliarian regime. Left, right, doesn't matter.
I.e., no wonder that you see the nazi totalitarian regime being similar to... the generic definition of a totalitarian regime. Big surprise there. No really.
At any rate if you can say with a straight face that, say, French or German socialism are defined as unconditionally obeying the state, I'll just say you have _no_ clue what you're even talking about.
And whop-de-freakin' do, so the best you can do is link to (A) a right-wing propaganda site, and (B) someone's clueless and logically incoherent rants on a blog (ok, a Tripod free web page used as a blog.) Riiight. As if one can't find bogus sites belonging to the whole range of lobbies, interest groups, and plain old nutjobs on an ideological crusade.
But the sad thing is, even if you want to redefine "socialism" as "Soviet communism", you're still not even starting to understand it. Even in the article you linked to, the starting paragraph states "Born of a commitment to remedy the economic and moral defects of capitalism". Do you even understand what those perceived moral defects were, and what Lenin's promise (misguided as it may have been) was?
"Obey the state or you'll be punished" is _not_ how even Soviet socialism was defined. That was just the totalitarian regime used to enforce it. And grafting that idea on top of socialism that was indeed Lenin's creation, and why his "bolshevik" faction (advocating direct action and taking control by force) split from the "menshevik" faction representing the real socialist movement (advocating gradual reforms and working within the frame of a democratic state.)
The (failed) promise even of Lenin' nationalizing the economy was precisely to take equal care of _all_ members of society, and make the economy provide to everyone according to his needs. Basically to flatten the existing wild-capitalism social structure where a few lived in palaces, and a majority barely avoided starving, and replace it with an utopia where all have equal chances and all are equally cared for.
Even in Stalin's USSR, by which time a lot of Lenin's utopic ideals had been thrown out the window anyway, the idea persisted (or was at least kept as a facade) that everyone should be equal in getting at least the basic care, and everyone should get equal chances in fulfilling their potential.
E.g., everyone had access to free education. You could finish a college regardless of whether your daddy saved a bunch of money for your college fund or not. There was simply no such thing as paying to get a diploma, in any form or shape. There was a uniform written exam for access to university, and the highest ranking pupils got admitted.
E.g., everyone had access to free medical care, and at least in the official propaganda, the _same_ kind of medical care for everyone. (Again, it was like that only in the official propaganda, but that propaganda was how even Stalin defined the "socialism" idea he was offering the people.)
E.g., access to high paying or otherwise better jobs was again officially based purely on performance, not on daddy's money, not on daddy's social networking, no other favoritism and nepotism forms. At the end of college, there was a list of available jobs, and the students were sorted by the final grade: the one at the top chose a job from the list, then the second, then the third, etc. And for most promotions or newly created jobs above entry level, a written exam was pretty much mandatory. (Again, in practice those at the top found their ways around this ideal equality, but it was regarded as the blatant corruption and nepotism that it really is.)
E.g., the official list of salaries was very much flattened, with the difference between the salary of a director or even minister and that of a janitor, being lower than anywhere else in the world. (But again, that was largely theoretical, because in practice corruption soon grew to allow those in power to augment their income with some serious bribes.)
_That_ egalitarian utopia was the fundamental idea that permeated even the Soviet-style version of "socialism". _That_ was the offer to its people,
So to define a state which executed the handicapped as "socialist", is... clueless. There are no polite ways to phrase it. It's just talking out of the rear end. Get a clue. Read a real history book, or a real economics book, instead of taking your "facts" from retards' blogs. (I had a chuckle at his saying that Hitler was socialist because he had a one-party dictatorship just like the USSR.)
And as was said before: usually the rule of thumb is that whenever you see someone accusing everyone else of being revisionists, he's the real revisionist. How often did you throw that word around in this thread alone?
Two thoughts.
1) The OP is posting historical information to better capture the 'feel' of a fantasy reality, one in which we may combat classic villains. e.g. Leftover Nazi elements. Precedence is huge in the genre: Cpt America, Blackhawk, Wonder Woman, Hellboy, etc etc etc. and I applaud the OP for posting the source information. I submit that immersion is *the* biggest part of roleplay.
2) I submit that debating the merits and flaws of capitalism and socialism (including 'who was what when') on an open gaming forum is both inappropriate and futile. At best, the original message of the OP is lost because the thread gets deleted. If one feels that strongly about the debate, and is interested in my own views on the topic(s), feel free to drop me a PM.
Big thanks to the OP. Very nice guide to help those of us that RP. Just thought i'd post some of the information I found when creating one of my villains.
Thule beliefs and a bit of background history
A primary focus of Thule-Gesellschaft was a claim concerning the origins of the "Aryan race". "Thule" was a land located by Greco-Roman geographers in the furthest north. The society was named after "Ultima Thule" (Latin: most distant Thule) mentioned by the Roman poet Virgil in his epic poem Aeneid, was the far northern segment of Thule and is generally understood to mean Scandinavia. Said by Nazi mystics to be the capital of ancient Hyperborea, they placed Ultima Thule in the extreme north near Greenland or Iceland.
The Thulists believed in the hollow earth theory. Thule had among its goals the desire to prove that the Aryan race came from a lost continent, perhaps Atlantis.
Rudolf von Sebottendorf was deeply influenced by Sufi mysticism, other Eastern philosophies, and in particular, the writings of Madame Blavatsky. He used Blavatsky's The Secret Doctrine to launch his own recreation of ancient Germanic myth, positing a coming historical moment in which he theorized that the Aryan race would be restored to prior glories by the appearance of a race of Supermen. Von Sebottendorf eventually became the prime mover behind the Thule Society, which was one of the most important precursors of the Nazi Party, although the Nazi Party itself, once it had become ascendant, obliterated the Thule Society.
The Thule Society, which espoused ideas of extreme nationalism, race mysticism, virulent anti-Semitism, and the occult, was formed shortly after the end of World War I in Munich by von Sebottendorf. It attracted about 250 ardent followers in Munich and about 1500 in greater Bavaria. Thule agents infiltrated armed formations of the Communist Party in Munich and plotted to destroy the party, hatching plans to kidnap the party's leader, Kurt Eisner, and launching an attack against Munich's Communist government on April 30, 1919. The Thule Society also started its own newspaper, Müncher Beobachter, in 1918, and eventually approached the organizer Anton Drexler to develop links between the Society and various extreme right workers' organizations in Munich.
Drexler was instrumental in merging the Thule Society with a workers' party that he was involved with. The merged organization became known as the Munich Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (DAP), or in English, the German Workers Party. It was the DAP that Adolf Hitler was introduced to in 1919. By April 1, 1920, the DAP had been reconstituted as the National Socialist German Workers Party (abbreviated from German as N.S.D.A.P., referred to in slang as the "Nazi Party", and von Sebottendorf, who was accused of negligence in allegedly allowing the names of several key Thule Society members to fall into the hands of the Communists, resulting in the execution of seven members after the attack on the Munich government in April 1919, had fled Germany for Switzerland and then Turkey. He returned to Germany in January 1933, but fled again in 1934.
The Nazi Ahnenerbe Forschungs und Lehrgemeinschaft organization was founded by Heinrich Himmler, Hermann Wirth, and Walter Darré on July 1st 1935 as a research foundation. It was incorporated into the larger SS in January 1939.
The name of the society literally means "ancestral heritage", and it was originally devoted to research concerning the anthropological and cultural history of the German race. Their headquarters was at Wewelsburg castle.
Their initial aim was to prove Nazi theories of racial superiority through historical, anthropological, and archaeological research. Himmler summarized its goal as "to restore the German people to the everlasting godly cycle of ancestors, the living and the descendants."
Like the Ahnenerbe section of the SS, and due to its occult background, the Thule Society has become the center of many conspiracy theories concerning Nazi Germany. Such theories include the creation of spacecraft and secret weapons. Because the group helped Hitler with his speaking skills, some have even suggested that the society somehow granted him magic powers that contributed to his later success.
It is also claimed that Thule-Gesellschaft possessed a psychic named Maria Orsic, who convinced them that the Aryan race didn't originate on the Earth, but came from Aldebaran in Taurus some sixty-five light years away. All of these theories are great when helping to create a background for a game such as COV/COH.
I'm not here to debate historical facts, and whilst I understand that there is no documented proof that Hitler was a member of the Thule society, some of the "conspiracy theories" surrounding his involvement with them make for an excellent background for a character.
Antaean
Proud to fight alongside:
The LEGENDARIES & SAFE HARBOR
Compliments to the Rednosed, a very nice FAQ.
The only fault I find is the extraneous emphasis on whether fascism is especially or unusually repressive or racist, since they typically are, and that is, after all, the primary use they get put to in this kind of fiction.
Compliments also on mentioning Corporatism as synonymous or nearly so. Recommended further info on this topic: the movie "The Corporation," Zeitgeist films.
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
Giggling, laughing, and chuckling don't make you right. Typical of people with "_no_clue_" about history are the ones who use the cliche "go read a history book."
And typical to form, you can't quote a single historical source - just rhetoric. Rhetoric does not prove points, except to illustrate your ignorance.
Read a history book? I have - the very primary source document itself: MEIN KAMPF. If you can't be bothered to read it, if you can't be bothered to understand the national socialist political platform and the policies they used in Germany, then what good are you?
Rhetoric doesn't cut it and doesn't win arguments. You can't even respond to a single one of the policy points I illustrated? Just pick out some blanket statements I made regarding socialism, demagog it, and call it a victory? Can you be any more transparent?
Maybe if you could respond to how any of the "20 points" policies I illustrated are not socialist, then I might take you seriously.
Wow, it's pages like this that remind me every now and then how literate some of the people who play this game are. Hope to see more of you guys and gals on-line.
One point I would like to make is that saying 'moo was a re-visionist may be a bit harsh, not that you had any malice behind it, but rather because that is how it is taught in many college level courses.
I was amazed at how much class time was taken up by reinforcing the idea that the terms used in the politics of today had totally opposite roots in some cases and how positions have changed over time. Want proof just look at the way terms like liberal and conservitive are abused on network news and even by our own (US) politcians on any given day. 
All in all I am pleased to see this kind of disscussion taking place and play with others who are able to have such a conversation. Well worth my $15 +/- per month.
Hitler could play a mean banjo....
And he liked watermellon as well...
'Lo, there do I see my father.
'Lo, there do I see my mother, and my sisters, and my brothers.
'Lo, there do I see the line of my people, back to the beginning.
'Lo, they do call to me.
They bid me take my place among them.
In the halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live forever.
[ QUOTE ]
Again, you have zero understanding on something yet present it as fact. Did this come from a comic book? It sure sounds like it. For what socialism really is in concise terms even a comic book reader could understand, go HERE.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's 16 long paragraphs of tripe including"[socialism] has far surpassed capitalism in ... moral cruelty." Socialism's the idea of collective popular ownership of the means of production, a definition well within the limits of my attention span, as a comic book reader.
Contrary to your strident remark above quoted, it was accurate to point out that: "I know, let's take freedoms away and be as inconsiderate as to stop billionaires from buying another yacht," neither is nor remotely characterizes socialism.
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
[ QUOTE ]
...it was accurate to point out that: "I know, let's take freedoms away and be as inconsiderate as to stop billionaires from buying another yacht," neither is nor remotely characterizes socialism.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm. More rhetoric and no substance. You really don't know what socialism is, do you? You keep quoting a comic book version ... okay, I'll be kind... you keep quoting a utopian view of socialism that has no basis in reality.
There is not a single socialist country that fits the parameters you set.
Want a prime example of the "socialist paradise"? See HERE and then come back and try your utopian, pie-in-the-sky view again.
Socialism is all about the state providing for the people, collectively (not individually). Socialism is not the people enjoying the benefits of the state. There is a subtle distinction there that I'm sure you'll miss. And yes, all socialist countries have limited freedoms to serve the purposes of the state.
The nazis were socialists. Their platforms and social policies are all socialist and very much anti-capitalist and anti-corporatist. All of the primary source documents state it plainly.
All you have is unsupported rhetoric.
Great summary of two of the world's greatest tyranical regimes. However, I want to add two points of my own here.
Hitler's hatred of Jews and Communists
One of the things that is often overlooked in the between-war history is that Munich and parts of the surronding countryside was taken over and turned into a Soviet Socialist Republic for about a month in the fall of '22 or '23, until it was broken up by police and the German army. Of the seven ringleaders - none of whom were captured and tried for this event - five were Jewish. It is quite possible that this event helped to cement Hitler's hatred of both Jews and Communists.
"The Jews rule the world/Zionist conspiracy" notions
Most of Hitler's hatred towards Jews was enhanced by Europe's anti-semantic attitude, fueled by a percieved notion that Jews were the ones who controled the money flow and kept that to themselves. (The whole notion as mentioned as to how Jews were percieved as 'shrewd businessmen'.)
It is quite ironic that one of the reason why Jews were running so many of the banks and businesses of the time - or so it was percieved - may very well have its roots in Mideaval Europe. At the time that commerce and mercantile guilds were coming into their own, it was believed that a Good Christian Man could not handle money and still be a Good Christian Man. This was based mostly on the story of Jesus chasing the monylenders from the Temple, and the mis-quoting of the old saw "Money is the root of all evil." Jews, being seen as 'not of God' - which is ironic, seeing as the first Christians were Jews - we deemed as the only ones who could handle money. Thus, Jews became the money-lenders and then bankers.
That old saw is misquoted? Yes, the actual quote is "For the love of money is the root of all evil." This means that a Good Christian Man could still be a businessman as long as he spent a portion of his time making, as quoted by Dickens, 'mankind his business'.
Personally, I see as the whole of the 20th Century, stretching from the dieing decades of the 19th Century and spreading into the 21st Century, as one constantly lurching from one ideological extreme to the other. This, IMO, is partially what led to some of the regimes mentioned that emerged in the latter half of the 20th Century.
Global: @All-American Teen
70 toons across 11 servers.
Top hero -All-American Teen lvl 50 eng/invul Tanker (01:10 EST; 1/24/09)
Top villian -Poisoned Plum lvl 30 robots/devices Mastermind
Fantastic read. I can't help but view our current administration as mimicking several of the "Fascist/Nazi" characteristics. I should have never read Zinn, Chomsky or Orwell either. Scary isn't it?
Question of the day:
Is Sean Hannity modern day a facist or a nazi? Explain your answer using quotes from eiter his radio/tv or published works.
When there is no room left in Hell, the Dead shall walk the earth.
Actualy, I would say Pat Robertson is the ultimate modern day facist/nazi. For a supposed man of God, the hateful drivel he spews out at every given opporutunity is simply obscene.
/rant off
It's sadly surprising how many organized religious groups are so intolerant nowadays.
Global: @All-American Teen
70 toons across 11 servers.
Top hero -All-American Teen lvl 50 eng/invul Tanker (01:10 EST; 1/24/09)
Top villian -Poisoned Plum lvl 30 robots/devices Mastermind
Besides the occult, Nazis were also deeply enamored of kook science, especially if it could be dressed up as a repudiation to "[censored] science," much like Stalin's embrace of Lysenkoism as a superior, Communistic approach to biology. (And I am totally not going to say anything about the current administration and their attitude toward science. No. Nope. Uh-uh. /e wide innocent eyes)
Antaean's already mentioned the hollow earth thing. The idea that the Earth is actually on the *inside* of a sphere, with the sun/moon/stars floating in a cloud in the middle, was popular, and Hitler actually sent some scientists out with a telescope to attempt to look across the sphere and spot British fleets in the North Sea.
Also widely believed was Hans Horbiger's Welteislehre, or "world ice theory," which held that almost everything in the cosmos is actually made of ice, and that the universe is driven by an eternal conflict between ice and fire. Sounds like there's a potential inspiration for an ice-based character there...
34 heroes,
20 villains, Victory, Justice, Infinity, Virtue, Triumph, Exalted -- some more active than others
<QR>
Thank you, AmazingMoo! I've sure learnt a lot from your OP!
Wow, very informative stuff in here. I feel this sudden urge to dig up Hitler and kick his God-damned [censored] again for the Gipper! (yeah yeah, never found his body, I know, but still...)