One Month of I5 (Long)

AmazingMOO · 10-03-2005 02:30 PM

One Month of I5

Issue Five went live a little more than four weeks ago. Bug fixes continue to flow slowly but steadily out of Cryptic. Players have either adjusted to the game-play changes introduced in the content patch, or have quit.

For the most part, reaction to the changes has been positive, although there is a lot of kvetching in game chat and on message boards about 'how the I5 changes have ruined the game'. The increased randomness of the game-- rather the increased chaos in all encounters-- seems to have had an overall positive effect. Players in general seem to pay a lot more attention to strategy and communication.

The biggest problems with the game right now are not game-play balance issues, but serious quality of life issues.

Costume Creator Issues:

A new thread is posted almost daily to either the Training Room, Technical Discussion, or main General Discussion boards to the effect that several options seem to be missing from the costume creator applet that is one of the game's biggest selling points. Specifically, options for jackets, skirts, and pants were moved into new costume categories. Newer costume geometry has replaced the older geometry, despite that geometry still being available in game. Characters with costumes created using the old geometry can still use those costumes. They just cannot update them or make a new costume with the same geometry.

This is a serious issue because the newer geometry for costumes has serious clipping issues that have not been resolved yet. Socks, belts, shirts, and collars all seem to pass through the new costumes.

The newer costume geometry all handles textures vastly differently than before. It is now impossible for characters to make a 'seamless' costume as they could before the changes. Perhaps the most bemoaned loss is the seamless minidress option that female characters could use with a tight top and classic skirt models. This is simply unavailable to newer characters.

Another serious issue is with costume visibility at a distance. While this can be seen on any character that uses the new jacket or pants options, the best place to go for the most obvious example is Independence Port. You can move back and forth and watch Family thugs with their amazing disappearing costumes. Jackets, pants legs, and sleeves all disappear at a little more than a third of default visibility. When a character wears a light shirt and a dark jacket, this becomes painfully obvious and immersion breaking.

City of Heroes' impressive costume creator and all the variety of costumes that can be created with the tool is one of Cryptic's bill selling points for the game. In terms of finance and market share, problems with the costume creator should have a very high priority assigned to them rather than the fairly low priority they seem to have. Other costume issues exist, such as missing costume options depending on gender, and the lack of a 'huge' female model. Despite that, the problems introduced with Issue 5 are being more widely noticed by the player base and word of them has been spreading for some time. These issues *need* to be addressed before they cause harm to server population or subscription revenue.

Sonic Power Issues:

With Issue 5, the Sonic and Archery powersets were added to the game, bringing more vibrancy and variety to the character concepts available to players. Aside from minor balancing issues, there is almost nothing negative to say about the addition of these powersets... With One Big Exception.

Sonic powers have, more so than any other power in the game, the loudest, most jarring, and most dissonant sound effects. This causes a great deal of discomfort for the players, many of whom prefer to play with the sound off rather than endure these effects.

Unlike their speakers, players can't really turn off their monitors to get rid of the visual effects related to sonic powers. Most of these are different variations of expanding concentric rings. The flash, frequency, and animation of these visual effects has proved to be extremely uncomfortable to players, especially those who suffer from motion sickness, migraines, or seizure disorders. Flashing visual displays have always caused problems for epileptics, up to inducing seizures. While it's not a common problem, it is a well known and well documented. If nothing else, most everyone knows about the infamous 'Pokemon Effect'. While any video game has the potential to cause this kind of adverse reaction, the graphics and animations for the sonic set seem to be custom designed to trigger nausea and seizures.

This issue is beginning to get attention from Cryptic's customer service and developer staff, but so far, the changes made to this power set have not been adequate to eliminate either the auditory or visual discomfort.

The Sonic power sets are fun and entertaining to play. They don't seem to have serious balance issues. People who do play the sonic powersets are being refused groups or asked not to use their powers in groups for the listed reasons. This is not acceptable.

First and foremost, players need a way to disable certain sounds and graphics. This has been a common request since the game's release. Now it's a dire necessity. This is an emergency change that needs to be pushed through Cryptic's quality assurance process post haste. It was direly needed four weeks ago.

In the long run, all the effects for the Sonic powersets need a complete reworking to avoid the use of dissonant sounds, rapid flashes, and rapidly expanding concentric rings.

Repetitive Content:

While the above issues are certainly serious, the problem that has perhaps the largest harmful potential to the long-term health of City of Heroes is the lack of content options for all levels. There are a total of 5 story arcs for players between levels 1 and 5 depending on origin or epic archetype. Assuming that players level primarily with their own missions, they can easily exhaust the rest of the in-game content in terms of mission type, enemies, mission decor, and storyline. Between levels 10 and 40, players face a hauntingly similar story progression, often encountering exactly the same contacts, exactly the same missions, exactly the same story line, and mission decor and layout that is repeated ad-nauseam.

Expansion zones, such as the Hollows, Striga Island, and Croatoa alleviate this problem to a degree, but only marginally. For the most part, the story progression in these zones does not alleviate the repetition. In fact, because the story is much more linear in these expansion zones, they become more repetitive more quickly.

What should be done to alleviate this problem?

The obvious and most labor-intensive solution is to simply create more story options for characters between levels 1 and 40. This requires Cryptic's writers and map designers to spend a lot of effort plugging new content and new missions into the 'old' part of the game. From the interviews we've seen, it's obvious that Cryptic's developers would much rather work on expansion content because it offers a lot more versatility and customization. Unfortunately, that leaves players in the lurch.

"Frostfire again, huh? That's the third time today. I think I'm gonna log instead."

A more reasonable and gradual approach to fixing the problem is to add content slowly and steadily, perhaps at the rate of one or two new story-lines per week. These need not be souvenir storylines, although more mission badges and souvenirs certainly wouldn't hurt. New stand alone missions would be adequate in most cases. Elite bosses should see more use, as should the newer game-play mechanics such as protecting items from destruction, or facing waves of attacking enemies.

Most importantly, the decor inside missions needs to have more variation. Expansion content sees some new tile sets, but the base game has virtually no variability between levels 10-40. While we have seen a few new room layouts with Issue 5, most COH players are still heartbreakingly familiar with the sameness of Sewer, Warehouse, Warehouse (abandoned), Office, Office (Abandoned), Military Base, Crystalline Cave, Laboratory, and Orenbega.

Outdoor missions are vastly more rare than they need to be. What very few new tilesets there are, such as the gulch caves from the Hollows, cargo ship interior from Striga, and 'combo' missions and the spirit world outdoor tiles in Croatoa tend to be targeted almost solely at expansion content.

On cursory inspection, adding new tile sets would seem to be an order of magnitude more difficult than adding new missions, especially if existing missions were retrofitted to use the new art assets. However, it does not seem unreasonable to expect at least one new 'generic' tileset per issue release or content patch. Again, if missions are added gradually to new tilesets, the long-term effect would be to create more diversity and uniqueness.

Croatoa's release offered a seeming wealth of new content. Unfortunately, this new content is not readily available to many players and is tailored to a decidedly more dedicated kind of play style. There are more sticking points and more 'locked options'. Many players view CoH's non-soloable content such as Archvillain encounters, trials, and taskforces with a certain amount of dread. Placing more non-soloable sticking points such as 'Maestro' or the dread 'Stop 30 Fir Bolg' mission early in a story causes consternation and frustration-- especially when the bulk of expansion content is hidden behind these events.

Waiting for City of Villains

The big focus at Cryptic right now, at least as far the players know, is not new content for I6, but the imminent City of Villains release. Cryptic is careful to bill City of Villains as a unique game that integrates with the existing City of Heroes game. Players with any experience with coding or debugging have long since realized that both games are using the same code base, if not the same binary resources. CoH players have seen glimpses of CoV features, such as costume creator options or textual messages. It has been confirmed that both games will use the same game servers, which indicates that the server code base will most likely be shared between the two games. Cryptic has also announced that some features will require players to own both games... more like the model of a typical MMO expansion.

City of Villains offers new archetypes, new powersets, new art, and new storylines-- apparently in approximately the same proportions as were released with the original CoH release. At this time, however, it is not immediately clear how much of this new content, if any, will cross-over to City of Heroes. CoH players have been promised a few new features such as base-building. They have not, as of yet, been given any reason to believe that there will be enough new content in CoH to prefer it over CoV. Further, it's becoming rapidly apparent that to get the 'goodies' of the new content-- costume options, for example-- one will have to become a villain.

This means more customization and uniqueness in total, but an overall limiting of just how customized and unique a character can be. While CoH players have been asking for costume features such as animalistic body parts or face masks for some time, it looks like these costume options are only going to be available to villains.

So much for roleplay. Satyrs and Minotaurs need not apply for a heroing license.

Perhaps the biggest feature touted for City of Villains is the highly-desired and usually highly-bungled art of PvP.

Most MMO games have attempted some form of in-game PvP to greater or lesser degrees of success. Some... dare I say most... implementations of MMO PvP are quite horrible. They usually either lack any kind of spontenaiety and excitement, or any implication of fairness and balance. The most successful form of MMO PvP is the so-called 'RvR', also known as 'Team PvP' or 'Realm vs. Realm'. Supposedly, City of Villains will bring RvR-style combat to Paragon City and its surrounds.

Will this be a good thing?

Cryptic spent an awful lot of time working on and perfecting the Arena PVP system for Issue 4 release. While there are a few dedicated PvPers, most CoH players seem to prefer to steer far clear. The Arena's various match options allows a great deal of fairness to be artificially imposed on PvP combat, but at the same time, it seems to fall into the problem of being horribly predictable and unexciting. Most players consider the arena to be 'empty'.

This a scary thing, especially since 'PvP' and 'End Game' seem to be used interchangeably by Cryptic devs and designers.

Do either CoH or CoV have an end game outside of PvP? Right now, it seems like all of Cryptic's eggs are in the PvP basket. Even if its successful, that means a radical departure in playstyle from what most CoH players have come to love and expect.

Right now, Cryptic desperately needs to address its future. Where do they intend to go-- more in the direction of releasing new content while allowing the old to stagnate, or do they focus on new content for older areas?

Because this information doesn't seem to be forthcoming, many will look to the CoV release as a non-verbal statement of intent.

What does the future hold for Paragon City's heroes? If the only new thing for them to experience is to become a villain, it doesn't seem very bright at all.

AmazingMOO · 10-03-2005 02:42 PM

Oh, I guess I better hand out some eyedrops after all that.

If I *wanted* your eyes to bleed, I would have done it with a razor blade.

Armageddon_NA · 10-03-2005 03:32 PM

VERY nice post....

Tshober · 10-03-2005 04:51 PM

I agree with much of what you said but I think I would have done it in 3 paragraphs, rather than 30 or so.

Brother Tshober

AmazingMOO · 10-03-2005 04:57 PM

36.

I do quite a bit of writing professionally (non-fiction) and for personal reasons. My college professors (and TAs) always hated me because I made them *read* my papers.

SokMunki · 10-03-2005 05:04 PM

My only comment (right now, anyhow) is that I suspect a primary problem with PvP is the lack of incentives. Apparently even people who love PvP want some sort of perk to come out of the fight. Otherwise, why bother?

I was surprised by this, actually, since I thought a lot of people liked PvP for it's own sake. I realize there are other issues with PvP, such as the lack of one-on-one balancing, but I suspect the lack of any reward is the primary culprit for PvP's faceplant.

In any case, bravo for writing a negative post that's thoughtful and reasonable. It's quite refreshing compared to the typical petulance and/or histrionics normally displayed.

Nozybida · 10-03-2005 05:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What does the future hold for Paragon City's heroes?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll be perfectly honest here, none of my usual smirky humor or poorly hidden pot shots.

You answered most of your questions yourself. The writing is on the wall, all their eggs in one basket as you put it. I5 was the beginning of the transition of turning CoH from a PvE based experience into one focused on the PvP aspects to be introduced with CoV.

A majority of future content, I would wager especially end game content, is meant to be player generated...ie:PvP.

It's quite a gamble given the success of the Arena and the playerbase this game has attracted. We'll see how it works out.

DKellis · 10-03-2005 05:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A majority of future content, I would wager especially end game content, is meant to be player generated...ie:PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would hope not, but I am afraid that this might be where the endgame would stay for a long while, whether or not it is where it's supposed to be (in the Vision).

I'm placing my hope on the possibility that the statement that PvP will be "entirely optional" does not mean "if you don't want PvP, then just don't play your endgame character".

Current main:
Schrodinger's Gun, Dual Pistols/Mental Blaster, Virtue

Avatar: Becky Miyamoto from Pani Poni Dash. Roulette roulette~

AmazingMOO · 10-03-2005 06:00 PM

PvP seems like such a good idea... on paper. Every game developer-- every application designer of any kind-- has had the idea pop through their head, "What if I could get the players to provide content for me?"

PvP must seem like the golden goose, especially when every game developer on the planet knows how insanely popular multiplayer shooters are. Not only do the players provide themselves with endless hours of entertainment, they'll provide their own maps and resources.

So far as I know, every MMO published in North America has had some form of PvP to greater or lesser extent... even such niche titles as 'A Tale in the Desert', where players compete against each other in a completely non-combat setting.

The problem with PvP in MMOs, however, is that it's not really possible to balance MMO classes for PvP. I do not beleive it can be done, especially with level-based calculations. Even if you manage to make MMO PvP fair, then you do so by taking the spontenaiety and excitement out of it. It may still be a test of skill, but it's not, by any stretch, a test of reflex.

Ah, but if we get it right, PVP will make our game last forever.

For a select few players, that's true. There are certainly games that cater to it. 'Power-Gankers' aren't hard to find. By the same token, those who will stick with the PvP elements in your game typically aren't the kind of players who will drag through content and are happy to group with others in cooperative play.

In games that do feature RvR play such as DAOC or WoW, those interested in PvP power-level through PvE content so that they can get to a certain battleground. They're not interested in grouping or playing through the story content. They're interested in putting the smack down.

I work with an office full of people like this. It's grating.

That said, is this the future for CoH? It doesn't sound like a happy future, and it doesn't really sound like City of Heroes, either.

BigSumi · 10-03-2005 06:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So much for roleplay. Satyrs and Minotaurs need not apply for a heroing license.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shucks. I was all ready to roll a Minotaur hero, and now you've ruined my day.

Statesman_NA · 10-03-2005 06:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You answered most of your questions yourself. The writing is on the wall, all their eggs in one basket as you put it. I5 was the beginning of the transition of turning CoH from a PvE based experience into one focused on the PvP aspects to be introduced with CoV.

A majority of future content, I would wager especially end game content, is meant to be player generated...ie:PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Erm. No. PvP will be an optional part of gameplay. Always.

The changes in I5 had very little to do with PvP and a lot to do with boring PvE. It's that simple. No conspiracy there - I think I've stated this several times.

As for the supposed "emphasis" on PvP - I think you'll see that it's just ONE part of City of Villains. It has PvE content levels 1 to 50.

We'll continue to add new PvE content (which I5 did exclusively, I might add) in the future.

AmazingMOO · 10-03-2005 06:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Erm. No. PvP will be an optional part of gameplay. Always.

The changes in I5 had very little to do with PvP and a lot to do with boring PvE. It's that simple. No conspiracy there - I think I've stated this several times.

As for the supposed "emphasis" on PvP - I think you'll see that it's just ONE part of City of Villains. It has PvE content levels 1 to 50.

We'll continue to add new PvE content (which I5 did exclusively, I might add) in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for that assurance, Statesman! Honestly, it makes me feel a lot better about the future of the game I've come to love so much in the last few months.

More PvE content is always good!

EyeDevil · 10-03-2005 06:38 PM

I would find it funny if everyone began believing the truth that it wasn't all about PvP.
Then Statesman would come around and make a topic and say:
.[censored]

Just kidding.

Blitzwing_NA · 10-03-2005 06:39 PM

I've never had any problems with the old Sonics effects(aside from disliking the audio fx of one or two abilities), and honestly, I haven't noticed any differences at all with these changes...of course, having gamed for 30 years now(I'm 33), I've pretty much seen it all as far as trippy effects go(Rez[the game], anyone?)....

As for I5 changes, gameplay-wise, I'm all for them...it's made my 26 Ill/Kin Controller more entertaining to play, my 36 MA/SR Scrapper seems to have even -more- resistance to holds now(8 Devouring Earth mushrooms? I fart in your general direction!), and my 50 Energy/Devices Blaster only needed a slight change in strategy(waiting for stealth effect on Cloaking Device to reassert itself after tossing a Smoke Grenade)...all-in-all, another nice update, with my only real complaint being some weird lag blips and spikes in the days following last week's multiple-server crashes....

CodeGuy · 10-03-2005 06:43 PM

So far I haven't been able to tell the difference. My 30s defender was having fun on Rugged before I5, he's having fun on Rugged now. My Regen Scrapper (also 30s) still feels fun. Maybe the powersets I play or the slotting I chose made the difficulty increase not affect me.

Nozybida · 10-03-2005 07:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Erm. No. PvP will be an optional part of gameplay. Always.

[/ QUOTE ]

Should I take this comment to heart, like I did the "PvP will not effect PvE" comments and "everyone will be able to solo in this game/we will be catering to the casual players" type comments from pre CoH beta, only to find out later that "Well, that's not really what we meant"? Or should I go ahead and assume now that this really means "At this time, the message I want people to hear, but is up for revision at my earliest convience, is....."?

[ QUOTE ]
The changes in I5 had very little to do with PvP and a lot to do with boring PvE. It's that simple. No conspiracy there - I think I've stated this several times.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL and it gets funnier each time. Take one example. Invulnerability. Invuln could have been adjusted in a million different ways. The most obvious of which was to reduce Invincibility and leave the concept and relationship to the genre intact. Instead we got this mess of useless passive powers and one power, that has nothing to do conceptually with being invulnerable, as the crown jewel of the set. The changes to Invulnerability actually promote the type of behavior the powerset was supposedly changed to reduce.

Many, many players have been baffled as to why Invulnerability was changed in such a way. The most obvious answer?......PvP. Resistance based sets would be far to hard to wear down in a PvP type enviroment. Defense based sets however are quite easy for your average PC to overcome.

Now why would it make sense to remove the core of a powerset, the very thing people take the set for...to emulate and force the set to rely on cheesy game mechanics? To make it vulnerable in PvP of course. The invuln changes really don't make sense in any other light.

And just to note....there you go with the fun/unfun stuff again. You might get a kick out of getting whacked 12 straight times in Super Mario but I don't. No matter how many times you tell me I didn't have fun in I1, 2, and 3 I know I did. My regen scrapper ran every mission, every taskforce, gathered every badge....all of the things you specifically said Regen scrappers didn't do, and most of all I had fun doing it, despite again the fact that you told me I really didn't.

Now, that said, did there need to be changes made to make the game more dynamic and more engaging. Did something need to be done about dumb as rocks mob AI, cheesy game play tactics, and mind numbing button mashing fights? Yep, sure did. Did I5 do that? Not by a long shot. The mobs are still dumb as rocks, damage still trumps all, there is still very little need for tactics above raw power.

Sure will be easier to balance CoH and CoV powersets though.

[ QUOTE ]
As for the supposed "emphasis" on PvP - I think you'll see that it's just ONE part of City of Villains. It has PvE content levels 1 to 50.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guess I'll have to wait and see on that one. My 16+ months of subscription time hasn't garnered me a CoV beta slot yet, despite all the 12+ month invites going out. I have noticed one thing though. I don't think I've seen a dev mention or talk about CoV without placing major emphasis on the PvP aspects of it. I understand the marketing angle and trying to tap that customer base, but I've seen very little about the PvE aspects of CoV. Why should I expect the game to play out differently?

[ QUOTE ]
We'll continue to add new PvE content (which I5 did exclusively, I might add) in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sure hope so. It's what your playerbase craves at this point. Might be nice to get an Issue not riddled with game changing nerfs sometime in the future too. Oh, and for the love of pete, give Regen a break. The set is a complete abomination now, you have succesfully made what used to be the single most fun powerset in the game into a complete pain in the [censored]. Can we go just ONE issue without me having to respec my scrapper?

Bill Z Bubba · 10-03-2005 07:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Can we go just ONE issue without me having to respec my scrapper?

[/ QUOTE ]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Bill needs another respec... forgot to take followup.

Be well, people of CoH.

OutRage · 10-03-2005 07:24 PM

God, can we let regen go already? It was always overpowered. You KNOW it was.

See, this type of stuff just gets to me and p*sses me off a little. You ever p*ss off a little?

Taking what States said and nitpicking it appart like you did is just...well I just think you're thinking way too much about this stuff.

Example. I5 made changes to my scrapper and controler. Not once did I ever go nutso over it. While your original post is intelligent and well thought out...I think thats the problem. You're thinking too much. I think you're falling prey to over analyzation of something you enjoy and are prone to thinking too hard about. You feel passionately towards this game and what it's currently facing and whats down the road and you're jumping on the brain choo-choo and riding off the cliff.

I've been here since release and I'd like to think I've earned my stripes on the forums. I don't fret about stuff like this. In life if something bothers or affects me, Think about how important it is and if it warrants it, I speak up. I speak my mind about alot of things. This game however, and the changes it incurs...don't phase me. Unless they turn it suddenly into the Hello Kitty MMORPG I'm pretty content to go with the flow and see where it takes me.

My love for this game stems from the fact that I love superheroes and I love videogames. I think alot of people could bennefit from that instead of treating this game like it's on a constant edge of the cliff situation.

People here seem to fall prey to overanalization and "reading their own headlines" so easily. Is it like that with all internet forums? Just because you have a well thought out, intelligent hypothesis does not mean that you are right...hell, it doesn't mean that it's even worth going off on.

What, maybe I'm not justified in going off like this. It's just the way you replied to State's post kinda set me off a little bit. With the puffy chested "oh, i should belive you NOW when you LIED to me earlier! How dare you!" tone. That set me off.

So, what if something he said previously changed because of a changing situation? He's a game designer, not Nostradamus. I am content to sit here and continue to play a game I love WITHOUT going nutso over every little thing the devs say. I take it as they give it and I speak my mind when something goes awry in my eyes.

God, I don't even know where the hell I was going with that but now that I got it out, I feel alot better.

I think alot of you need to go back to playing the game, immersing yourselves in the missions (the STORY of them not the "oMg mOr Content. These ar all t3h same" bullcrap), and build new concept characters...hell, maybe even try some roleplaying.

It's a game. Enjoy it. Don't nitpick and try to see the future according to (insert poster name here).

Capice?

Blackdragon1686 · 10-03-2005 07:25 PM

I see most of AmazingMOO's points and I agree with all of them, but theres also one thing I would add. On the subject of adding content matter, I would really love to see more end-game content, from levels 40-50, maybe even epic content at lvl 50.

Oh one more thing...I know why you change the powers and such..but just go one issue without changing Regen...think of the scrappers
Ideas could be things like a story arc involving the council and finally unmasking "the center", perhaps the return of hero 1, although i know that is currently in the works. A second rikti invasion on a much smaller scale. And i'm sure you could come up with much better ideas.
Also, it would be nice to have another city wide event. Everybody loves them!

Armageddon_NA · 10-03-2005 07:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You answered most of your questions yourself. The writing is on the wall, all their eggs in one basket as you put it. I5 was the beginning of the transition of turning CoH from a PvE based experience into one focused on the PvP aspects to be introduced with CoV.

A majority of future content, I would wager especially end game content, is meant to be player generated...ie:PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Erm. No. PvP will be an optional part of gameplay. Always.

The changes in I5 had very little to do with PvP and a lot to do with boring PvE. It's that simple. No conspiracy there - I think I've stated this several times.

As for the supposed "emphasis" on PvP - I think you'll see that it's just ONE part of City of Villains. It has PvE content levels 1 to 50.

We'll continue to add new PvE content (which I5 did exclusively, I might add) in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im sorry I just dont agree. I5 had tons of changes in powerset that based PvE nerfs SOLELY on PvP content. I just disagree... thats all.

I think what he's trying to communicate States is that the game, with I5, is NOT as fun anymore for a lot of people. Not all, just some/alot.

Your theory is "Difficult = Fun"... in a game named "City Of Heroes" I think many of us feel "Feeling Like a Super-Hero and not a weakling = Fun"

I know its less fun for me, Issue 3 was the best time I ever had in this game. Since then, or what I like to call "post-pvp", the game has just gotten boring. Thought I have 11 50s and have seen all your game has to offer multiple times. So, I guess anyone in my situation would be bored.

No1 has to agree with me. If you hate what I said, blame it on Jaygatz.

[ QUOTE ]
"Responding irrationally increases the difficulty of Statesman's job ... thereby increasing his fun."
-jaygatz-

[/ QUOTE ]

KidQwik · 10-03-2005 07:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Erm. No. PvP will be an optional part of gameplay. Always.

The changes in I5 had very little to do with PvP and a lot to do with boring PvE. It's that simple. No conspiracy there - I think I've stated this several times.

As for the supposed "emphasis" on PvP - I think you'll see that it's just ONE part of City of Villains. It has PvE content levels 1 to 50.

We'll continue to add new PvE content (which I5 did exclusively, I might add) in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pssst.. PvE will always get boring without new content. As for all this not being done for PvP, come on... Examples: MoG, IH, Phase Shift, Quantum Flight, etc etc. These are things players complained about when I4 was up on test and people were gettin creamed because of perma MoG, phase shifting into protection, etc. These changes were for PvP. Given the fact that very few of us seem to play in the Arena (going in and not seeing anyone there or playing kinda back this up), these changes should not have taken place. If you want to make PvE more interesting, make the mobs more interesting. Make their AI more interesting. Make them stronger, etc. That's the challenge. Making us weaker and gimping the toons we loved to play and played so long does not make things more challenging in a "Oh yay, now I'm weaker, so things will be harder!" kinda way. Using excuses like "We made IH a click so now you won't have such a hard time not having endurance" is like saying "We're going to go to war so we can find WMD that are not there". Baseless...

Armageddon_NA · 10-03-2005 07:53 PM

Let me add.... I just read the rest of this post after I posted.
(When I posted the first time i read the OP and Statesmans post)

ANyway, I wanted to add it seem the community seems to agree somewhat with me.

The post by "Nozybida" was right on point. Espcially with this:

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Erm. No. PvP will be an optional part of gameplay. Always.

[/ QUOTE ]

Should I take this comment to heart, like I did the "PvP will not effect PvE" comments and "everyone will be able to solo in this game/we will be catering to the casual players" type comments from pre CoH beta, only to find out later that "Well, that's not really what we meant"? Or should I go ahead and assume now that this really means "At this time, the message I want people to hear, but is up for revision at my earliest convience, is....."?

[/ QUOTE ]

AND

[ QUOTE ]
And just to note....there you go with the fun/unfun stuff again. You might get a kick out of getting whacked 12 straight times in Super Mario but I don't. No matter how many times you tell me I didn't have fun in I1, 2, and 3 I know I did. My regen scrapper ran every mission, every taskforce, gathered every badge....all of the things you specifically said Regen scrappers didn't do, and most of all I had fun doing it, despite again the fact that you told me I really didn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Liquid · 10-03-2005 07:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Erm. No. PvP will be an optional part of gameplay. Always.

[/ QUOTE ]

Should I take this comment to heart, like I did the "PvP will not effect PvE" comments and "everyone will be able to solo in this game/we will be catering to the casual players" type comments from pre CoH beta, only to find out later that "Well, that's not really what we meant"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on how you define "optional". If every issue from here on out added PvP zones with PvE content in them, he'd be living up to both promises.

1) PvP still optional. Just don't enter any of the new zones.

2) New PvE content always being added. You just have to enter PvP zones to get it.

I'm not saying this is what will happen, just that if it did happen, they could still say they never misled us or lied, because both promises were met.

Issue 4 was a massive disappointment for me in terms of content (the costume additions were fantastic, but that's not content), and I am worried Issue 6 will be as well, based on all the information I've read so far.

I'm going to be a little more difficult to please and say that I want EVERY issue to add meaningful (like, on the level of Striga or Croatoa) PvE content that is in no way associated with PvP. I'm also going to ask that the next two or three PvE only content additions are less fantasy oriented than the Shard or Croatoa. I think it's about time we see a zone-sized villain's lair like Arcade's Murderworld, a space station, or a warped Praetorian version of Atlas Park. I'd also like these to be zones with level 50 content.

My worry is less that there will never be new PvE content, and more that it will be in PvP zones, or that we will get half the PvE content we've been getting, to free up resources for the PvP content, once CoV is released.

Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)

Iron_Vixen · 10-03-2005 07:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You answered most of your questions yourself. The writing is on the wall, all their eggs in one basket as you put it. I5 was the beginning of the transition of turning CoH from a PvE based experience into one focused on the PvP aspects to be introduced with CoV.

A majority of future content, I would wager especially end game content, is meant to be player generated...ie:PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Erm. No. PvP will be an optional part of gameplay. Always.

The changes in I5 had very little to do with PvP and a lot to do with boring PvE. It's that simple. No conspiracy there - I think I've stated this several times.

As for the supposed "emphasis" on PvP - I think you'll see that it's just ONE part of City of Villains. It has PvE content levels 1 to 50.

We'll continue to add new PvE content (which I5 did exclusively, I might add) in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]
I do hope to see more and more fun PvE coming for both titles. I really love PvE and the only thing I like about PvP is avoiding it. So as long as you are adding it, but keep it optional as you have said, it's all good to go for me. I do not like the direction (Note: the direction, not against some kind of reduction, just the way it was reduced) that Invuln was cut but it's still playable and as long as I can continue to solo or team as I see fit, and can avoid PvP, I will be here for a long time to come.

StrangeMatter · 10-03-2005 08:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Should I take this comment to heart, like I did the "PvP will not effect PvE" comments

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why you'd take that to heart since he never said that. He did say that PvP-only changes would affect PvE as little as possible, which seems true so far.

[ QUOTE ]
and "everyone will be able to solo in this game/we will be catering to the casual players" type comments

[/ QUOTE ]
This is plenty true. While I don't think that anyone who reads/posts here with any regularity can be called "casual", I'm pretty close.

I play less than 10 hours/week and don't pay attention to the numbers behind the powers. I solo characters of all 5 ATs and each issue has made the game more fun.

[ QUOTE ]
from pre CoH beta, only to find out later that "Well, that's not really what we meant"?

[/ QUOTE ]
I did a search and can't find a single example of any Dev saying that. There are a couple of cases where they, in suitably polite language, said "learn how to read", which seems to be the problem here.

[ QUOTE ]
The most obvious answer?......PvP. Resistance based sets would be far to hard to wear down in a PvP type enviroment.

[/ QUOTE ]

And yet Stone, Fire and Dark Armor have plenty of Resistances and weren't reduced at all... If you're going to accuse them of lying, you should have actual *proof*.

[ QUOTE ]
The invuln changes really don't make sense in any other light.

[/ QUOTE ]

...any other light that you are willing to consider. How about "it plays better and is more fun in general like this". Because it's not more fun for you, this may be hard to accept. But it may also be true.

[ QUOTE ]
No matter how many times you tell me I didn't have fun in I1, 2, and 3 I know I did.

[/ QUOTE ]
Once again, he never said that. To the best of the dev team's ability, I5 is *more fun* than the earlier issues, but to say that that the game was unfun before I5 is silly.

[ QUOTE ]
My regen scrapper ran every mission, every taskforce, gathered every badge....all of the things you specifically said Regen scrappers didn't do,

[/ QUOTE ]
"specifically said"? Wow, that would be a heck of a statement. If he ever made it.

[ QUOTE ]
I sure hope so. It's what your playerbase craves at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]
OMG, where have you been hiding! James Randi has $1,000,000 waiting for you with your proof of actual psychic ability! Heck, I'd personally give you $100 if you could provide evidence that even as little as 10% of the playerbase "craves" more PvE content. I'll accept just about any actual proof. Posts from 15,000 different users would probably be the easiest.

Here's a tip: People don't generally stand up and shout "I'm perfectly happy!" When people pay $15/month for a service and aren't happy, they speak up. This isn't a small statistically effect. About 5% of the playerbase posts here, that's around 7k people.

Let's say that they *all* hate I5 (obviously not true, but why not). Let's then say that only represents 1/3 of the people that are unhappy (the other 2/3rds are too lazy to say anything even though they pay for the service, again I think I'm being conservative here). That means 21,000 people *hate* I5.

WoW has shown that an MMO *can* get a userbase in the millions. Cryptic and NcSoft absolutely must increase the userbase of CoH. Status quo won't do it (or else we'd see a greater growth trend since launch); more content won't do it (people who haven't played haven't seen the content that's here now); making the game more fun is the *only* way to do it.

If getting a userbase of millions costs a few thousand people who preferred things the old way, I think any company would take that bet and say to those people "Sorry things didn't work out, we hope you like our next game!"