I think the "it's not realistic for bow and arrows to be more accurate than energy attacks" should be left out of the argument. Because, if you want to keep things "realistic" then arrows should do way less damage than the other sets and should have an animation that cuts into the attack time. Hell, if you start talking "realistically" then you might as well say bow and arrow heroes should run out of arrows rather frequently and should go buy/craft more as needed.
So realistically speaking, arrows should be way less accurate, do way less damage, and have way worse attack rates than the other sets. I don't think anyone wants that, so let's keep the "realistic" discussion out of this.
I'll jump on the band wagon about accuracy not being a big enough bonus to offset the rest, BUT I also want to make this statement: Until I got up to SO's I was running 2 accuracy enhancements in all my offensive because I was missing way WAY too much against +1's and +2's. Where was the accuracy bonus there? Now that I have SO's I still keep 1 accuracy enhancement in each power and still miss more often than I would like.
But, I've noticed the wierdest thing lately. I can actually hit +5's and +6's just as well as I can hit +2's. It makes no sense, but I've seen it in multiple groups and on multiple occations. I don't do as much damage as my higher level team mates, but I can pass on the sk because I'm hitting the mobs pretty good, which means mucho xp for me!
So now I begin to wonder if this is the window that archers are meant to excell in. Is hitting purples like they're yellows where our strength lies?
Anti-Dev Lies / Pro Truth. Thats me. I don't dislike the devs, just their decisions and when they choose to give us information we didn't ask for instead of the information that we asked for. Also when they just flat out lie to us. That really ticks me off.
Arcanaville said it best I think although I have said this in the past. We post our game play experiences and we get a response with precise numbers ignoring our gameplay experiences. We post precise numbers and we get a post from the devs concerning gameplay.
It is really funny in a sad way.
PS. Just remembered, I posted the same thoughts as Arcanaville in threads relating to Geko's post on Vigilance.
[ QUOTE ]
I'll jump on the band wagon about accuracy not being a big enough bonus to offset the rest, BUT I also want to make this statement: Until I got up to SO's I was running 2 accuracy enhancements in all my offensive because I was missing way WAY too much against +1's and +2's. Where was the accuracy bonus there? Now that I have SO's I still keep 1 accuracy enhancement in each power and still miss more often than I would like.
But, I've noticed the wierdest thing lately. I can actually hit +5's and +6's just as well as I can hit +2's. It makes no sense, but I've seen it in multiple groups and on multiple occations. I don't do as much damage as my higher level team mates, but I can pass on the sk because I'm hitting the mobs pretty good, which means mucho xp for me!
So now I begin to wonder if this is the window that archers are meant to excell in. Is hitting purples like they're yellows where our strength lies?
[/ QUOTE ]
I was doing the Citidel TF and found that I couldn't hit jack being 4 levels below the mobs. Made it extremely hard when I would look at my two Accuracy slotted Flash arrow miss all the mobs but one and that one was probably due to streak breaker code. My attacks couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. It wasn't until I leveled to 27 and put in +3 SOs that I could actually start hitting things. The accuracy bonus is nice but every set has a bonus and they aren't troubled by the things that trouble archery. The set needs a buff regardless of how good the bonus is to accuracy. Something some of the dev bootlickers don't understand.
I am currently Playing a Bow/Dev Blaster with TD this build is awsome all damage very very very nice when you are blasting AoEs. I love this build I get nice damage and I dont waste shots cause with TD i dont miss.
The only down side i see is the time to pull off some shots I get face planted when tring to fire a 500% blazing arrow. But I am over it.
[ QUOTE ]
Archery has the highest Accuracy in the game. All powers have an accuracy of 1.16. Ranged shot, the sniper attack, has an accuracy of 1.39.
So that like getting 1 free ACC DO in all Archery powers. Against a target with no defense, thats a 87% chance ToHit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Of that additional 16% accuracy, 5% is the weapon-draw bonus common to all weapon powersets. It's there to help compensate for the delay in drawing a weapon. (Whether or not that's an appropriate way to address the draw animation time is another discussion.) That means the bonus accuracy for archery is 11%--that's closer to a TO than to a DO. Is anyone satisfied with a single green accuracy TO in their powers? Go ahead, ask around. I'll wait.
The fundamental problem is that the accuracy bonus isn't enough to replace the accuracy enhancements that people typically use above L12. Assuming you stick to even-level mobs (which is not always an option, even when doing your own Heroic-level missions), you'll hit them 87% of the time with no enhancements. Pre-DOs, that's pretty good. Once DOs are available, it's only par with what all the other blasters are doing. When you reach SO level, you'll find yourself hitting 8% less often than other blasters, because they will all have an SO accuracy enhancement or some equivalent, which brings them to the to-hit ceiling.
Let's look at some numbers. Assume that the both ArrowX from the Archery set and BlastX for the X set both do 100 damage when unslotted. Further assume that ArrowX gets 6-slotted with white damage SOs, while BlastX gets slotted with 1 acc and 5 damage SOs, also white. Start shooting at white minions with no resistances.
Average ArrowX damage = 300(.87) = 261
Average BlastX damage = 266.6 (.95) = 253.3
261/253.3 = 1.03, or 3% extra damage/attack, on average, for ArrowX.
Now try it without the weapon-draw bonus, which is after all, intended to compensate for animation time, not the other weaknesses of the Archery set:
Average ArrowX damage = 300(.82) = 246
Average BlastX damage = 266.6 (.95) = 253.3
246/253.3 = 0.97, or 3% less damage/attack, on average, for ArrowX.
So, if we rely on the accuracy bonus to hit enemies, we do 3% more damage with otherwise-equivalent attacks once we get into SO range (which constitutes the bulk of the game). Unfortunately, archery attacks aren't otherwise equivalent. They deal commonly-resisted damage, have no secondary effects, have relatively long animations, and in some cases offer lower base damage than analogous attacks in other sets. This gets worse when dealing with foes that have a level advantage, as the accuracy SO is overkill on even-level mobs--against +1 and +2 mobs, accuracy-enhanced blasters will still be hitting around 95% of the time, while our archer is hitting substantially less often.
If we discount the animation time, we must also discount 5% of the accuracy bonus, and we find that Archery averages less damage than other blast sets with typical slotting, in addition to the other burdens of the set. Not to mention the fact that if we rely on the accuracy bonus in lieu of slotting, there will be occasions when we will miss a shot at a critical junction, and find defeat where another blaster could have pulled out a victory.
If we slot for accuracy, the picture is even grimmer in some ways. One acc SO renders the accuracy bonus irrelevant when fighting even-level foes, so we'll find ourselves doing less damage (which is more resistable), more slowly, for more endurance, with no secondary effect at all.
It's a grand idea in theory, geko, but it falls short in practice. An accuracy bonus is thematic, and it helps somewhat in the lower levels, but it consistently leaves archery blasters (and defenders, too) coming up short later on.
In order to be a satisfactory secondary effect, the bonus needs, at minimum, to replace a typical enhancement at any given level. That would let archers use the slot that would normally go to accuracy to effect a substantial increase to their damage (or, in the case of Aimed Shot, reduce its endurance cost to something less absurd). A scaling effect could work, with the archery-specific bonus set to around 8% for L1-14, 16% for L15-24, and 33% above L25. Note that I said "archery-specific bonus"--if you include the weapon-draw bonus in that, we'll want something else to compensate for the animation time.
Archery is a nifty powerset. Please don't leave it gimped.
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
[ QUOTE ]
Rain of Arrows seems to have a random number of 1-3 ticks, however the ticks seem VERY inconsistent. Against even level mobs standing side by side, one will take 1 hit, while the others take 2 or 3. Slotting Accuracy directly in the power doesn't seem to change this. The strange thing is, in the combat log no damage numbers are displayed. It's almost as if this power is being treated like a locational pet. That is the damage happens, but it's not YOUR damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
All "Rain of X" powers are, in fact, locational pets. They do not benefit from Aim, Buildup, inspirations, or much of anything. Welcome to the life of an Ice Blaster.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Archery's accuracy bonus is real, and it does help. The question is wether it helps enough in comparison with other secondary effects.
I suspect that the answer differs for blasters and defenders, since most of the other secondary effects are boosted for defenders. (and Fire's DoT, which isn't, is boosted by the same damage enhancements you're slotting anyway)
Take electricity, for example. On my electric blaster, the end drain isn't really a useful effect - I'd gladly trade it for a 16% bonus to hit. On my FF/elec defender, however, the end drain is somtimes the most useful thing I can do - and a 16% accuracy bonus would make a poor trade for it.
I'm not certain, but I doubt that defenders get a bonus on the accuracy "secondary" for Archery...
I've got my Archery/Devices blaster to 31, and I'm having a grand time playing it. It's a superb blaster when dealing with single targets or small groups. Where it dies a horrible, grisly death is when it gets attacked by a large # of foes.
The long animations leave you very vulnerable to being swarmed, and then killed. My energy, ice, or electric blasters can flee (um... extend the range...) much sooner in that sort of situation, and are much less likely to die because of it. They can also do a "running firefight" without being caught, which isn't usually an option for my archer.
Aimed Shot's endurance usage makes it my own personal Sapper. Either it needs to do more damage, or use less endurance - something's messed up there.
I'd like to suggest that Archery, like the defender Radiation Blast set, have a small amount of it's damage penetrate defenses. That would give the set a meaningful secondary effect, as well as help mitigate the near-ubiquity of lethal-resistant villains.
Synchrotron, level 50 Radiation/Radiation Defender
Fighting crime on Champion since 2004
Oh, I believe they really do. Wait till you get CoV (if you haven't): there you will find the ultimate proof that the Devs hate blasters.
Hate is strong word. I think they wish they preformed differently; that we killed more slowly.
I suspect they'd like to nerf us to Archer level and consider that an acceptable power level.
I don't like Accuracy as a secondary effect either: aim, buildup, targeting drone and of course ACC SOs all help us get past ACC issues.
I don't think the end costs are a concern because I suspect the Devs are going to globally lower end costs (or give players more end?). But that's just a sneaky suspicion.
[ QUOTE ]
...
The fundamental problem is that the accuracy bonus isn't enough to replace the accuracy enhancements that people typically use above L12. Assuming you stick to even-level mobs (which is not always an option, even when doing your own Heroic-level missions), you'll hit them 87% of the time with no enhancements. Pre-DOs, that's pretty good. Once DOs are available, it's only par with what all the other blasters are doing. When you reach SO level, you'll find yourself hitting 8% less often than other blasters, because they will all have an SO accuracy enhancement or some equivalent, which brings them to the to-hit ceiling.
[/ QUOTE ]
So you're saying that with a single SO accuracy enhancement in an attack, that's more than enough accuracy for you? That when you're grouped and the mobs are +2 and +3, and you have much more lieutenants and bosses, you're comfortable with how accurate you are?
You're making the assumption that people won't use accuracy enhancements in their attacks. People will still use an SO enhancements in their slots. The difference is that instead of a 33% boost to accuracy, they'll have a 49% boost. That's pretty good because a 33% boost may let you hit the ceiling against an even level minion, but it doesn't when it's a +2 or +3 lieutenant or boss. And that's more in line with the kind of villains you're up against when grouped. Heck, even when soloing, if you set your difficulty up to midrange or higher, you're going up against +1 or +2 bosses! And you'll miss quite frequently with just a single SO accuracy.
The accuracy boost doesn't alleviate the need for some tweaking of the set (and especially doesn't alleviate the need for MAJOR tweaking of Trick Arrows), but there's no way you can discount it as being meaningless. Many many many blasters would greatly benefit from another 16% accuracy.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
I am wondering if running assault and tactics on my archer will allow him to remove the acc SO in each of his attacks, and add another damage SO, and be brought in line with other blasters.
I figure with tactics 4 slotted (1 end, 3 tohit), and whatever slots I can spare in assault (not many probably) that should help me out some. With no hasten, I may not notice the end problem as much. Sad that I have to take 2 pool powers and 3 slots to maybe make up for archery's lack of power.
PS. Good thing my secondary is fire, I have the power picks and slots to spare. I am the gimp of the gimp.
The accuracy, as said before isn't JUST there for the draw. Think about it, 1 Acc and 5 dmg is a common slotting right? Well now you don't need that accuracy, that's 33% more damage. Maybe if people would learn how to slot they wouldn't feel their Blasters are nerfed and demand that all setts play exactly the same(see ask Geko).
By the way, I play an archer. No problems so far...
[ QUOTE ]
The accuracy, as said before isn't JUST there for the draw. Think about it, 1 Acc and 5 dmg is a common slotting right? Well now you don't need that accuracy, that's 33% more damage. Maybe if people would learn how to slot they wouldn't feel their Blasters are nerfed and demand that all setts play exactly the same(see ask Geko).
By the way, I play an archer. No problems so far...
[/ QUOTE ]
Except that you do need the accuracy since the accuracy bonus alone is not enough to help you in most team play situations. So, maybe if people realized that a large majority of players fight +2 to +3 mobs all the time they would realize that this accuracy bonus isn't all it is cracked up to be. It doesn't make up for the lack of damage in the set.
[ QUOTE ]
So you're saying that with a single SO accuracy enhancement in an attack, that's more than enough accuracy for you? That when you're grouped and the mobs are +2 and +3, and you have much more lieutenants and bosses, you're comfortable with how accurate you are?
You're making the assumption that people won't use accuracy enhancements in their attacks. People will still use an SO enhancements in their slots. The difference is that instead of a 33% boost to accuracy, they'll have a 49% boost. That's pretty good because a 33% boost may let you hit the ceiling against an even level minion, but it doesn't when it's a +2 or +3 lieutenant or boss. And that's more in line with the kind of villains you're up against when grouped. Heck, even when soloing, if you set your difficulty up to midrange or higher, you're going up against +1 or +2 bosses! And you'll miss quite frequently with just a single SO accuracy.
The accuracy boost doesn't alleviate the need for some tweaking of the set (and especially doesn't alleviate the need for MAJOR tweaking of Trick Arrows), but there's no way you can discount it as being meaningless. Many many many blasters would greatly benefit from another 16% accuracy.
[/ QUOTE ]
geko's comment appeared to be based on fighting even-level foes. I continued that pattern with my analysis, while noting that the situation was worse against higher-level foes. That seems the best way to get the point across.
Generally speaking, I am comfortable with 1 acc SO against up to +2 mobs. I start getting nervous when fighting +3s, but I still feel reasonably effective most of the time.
I don't discount the benefits of an accuracy bonus. In fact, the current bonus helps substantially in the lower levels. In the mid- and upper-levels, however, its benefit pales in comparison with the available options--SOs, Tactics, Targeting Drone, and so forth. Against the foes the devs apparently expect us to fight most of the time, an archer either has too much accuracy and not enough damage, or not enough accuracy and not enough damage.
This isn't the only help the Archery set needs, by any means. Getting an adequate "secondary" effect would be a start, however.
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
If the accuracy bonus was as much as an SO, then it would be useful. However, since it is not enough to hit the accuracy cap of 95%, then people will still slot 1 acc and 5 damage. That means that against even level foes, archers have the same accuracy as everyone else, 95%.
A LOT of people play against even level foes. Foes with accuracy debuffs are around, but not a whole lot. So for a lot of archers, they have the same accuracy as every one else, but no secondary effect.
Besides, anyone can take a yellow inspiration against a higher level enemy. They drop all the time. An Archer can't take a debuffing attack inspiration or a knockback inspiration.
Sorry Geko, but the math is against you on this one. If you raise the accuracy bonus to enough to hit the 95% cap, then it'll be worth it because we'll be able to slot 6 damage. However, then damage inspirations and deffender buffs won't be as useful because we'll be hitting the damage cap easier. They won't be useless, but they will be less useful.
[ QUOTE ]
I am wondering if running assault and tactics on my archer will allow him to remove the acc SO in each of his attacks, and add another damage SO, and be brought in line with other blasters.
I figure with tactics 4 slotted (1 end, 3 tohit), and whatever slots I can spare in assault (not many probably) that should help me out some. With no hasten, I may not notice the end problem as much. Sad that I have to take 2 pool powers and 3 slots to maybe make up for archery's lack of power.
PS. Good thing my secondary is fire, I have the power picks and slots to spare. I am the gimp of the gimp.
[/ QUOTE ]
Five-slotting Tactics is (on a Defender only) equivalent to a single SO, except it's a toHitBuff instead. Since I am one of those players not comfortable with just an SO's worth of accuracy (especially since accuracy enhancments take effect after foe Defense is subtracted from your base toHit) I prefer to add this to a single SO accuracy in all my powers.
If yor Archer is a blaster, forget it. You can't get enough bonus out of Tactics to add up to a single SO accuracy.
Oh, and you can't slot Assault for damage. There's no such thing as a "toDamageBuff". Since Assault doesn't do damage you can't slot it with +damage enhanements.
Edit: On further thought I realized that, with 5-slotted Tactics and Archery's inherent bonus, you can get to the same levels (for yourself) as about a single SO accuracy enhancement. If you only fight +0/+1 foes, you could go 6-damage. +2 and higher foes and, IMO, you're goinf to whiff enough to be really painful with Archery's attack rate.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The accuracy, as said before isn't JUST there for the draw. Think about it, 1 Acc and 5 dmg is a common slotting right? Well now you don't need that accuracy, that's 33% more damage. Maybe if people would learn how to slot they wouldn't feel their Blasters are nerfed and demand that all setts play exactly the same(see ask Geko).
By the way, I play an archer. No problems so far...
[/ QUOTE ]
Except that you do need the accuracy since the accuracy bonus alone is not enough to help you in most team play situations. So, maybe if people realized that a large majority of players fight +2 to +3 mobs all the time they would realize that this accuracy bonus isn't all it is cracked up to be. It doesn't make up for the lack of damage in the set.
[/ QUOTE ]
To back this up, Martial Arts has a +10% accuracy modifier over "normal" attacks. My MA/DA scrapper is the second character I took into the 30s and higher that didn't have an acuracy boosting power of some kind (the first was my Regen, who, at the time labored under Dark Melee's vs DEF bug). It's been fairly agonizing, and I whiff incessantly against foes with any +DEF, or +3 foes. Two accuracies helped, but ate into my DPE which used to be really painful with DA.
Sure, it would have been even worse with no bonus, but DO-style accuracy bonuses just don't do that much for you.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Geko, I have a problem with the overall numbers of the attacks.
Even discounting the long attack times, here is what I see from, say, Snap Shot:
+16% base accuracy -> does 16% more damage than comparable attacks
2.23 BI vs 2.78 BI for standard "weak" blast -> does 20% less damage per hit
So, it will hit 16% more, for 20% less damage. In other words, it does less damage per shot than other first blasts. Since it also takes much longer to activate, it does far less damage per animation second than other blasts.
Theoretically, this is balanced with a shorter recharge. So, individually, Snap Shot matches up to other "weak" blasts since it fires faster.
However, this does not matter as much, for the following reasons:
1) Full attack chains. Especially with such fast recharge times, the quick recharges are "wasted". We're stuck with powers that are fully recharged, but can't fire because of the long animation times, yet our damage is lowered because of that uselessly-low animation time.
2) Endurance. Lower average damage per shot, but same Endurance cost = lower DPE.
3) No secondary effect. As the numbers above show, we do less damage per activation time even after the accuracy bonus, yet in return for the accuracy bonus, we lose any other secondary effect.
Thank you for the nice Accuracy bonus. But look again at the DPS numbers of Archery, NOT of each single attack, but rather as a whole. Once you have a full attack cycle from it, you lose a large part of its "speed advantage" due to fast recharge, and are heavily impacted by its "speed disadvantage" that comes from slow animations. Especially once you add in perma-Hasten, which benefits other sets like Ice tremendously... and Archery almost not at all, against single targets.
The problem is the same with Aimed Shot, but worse off in Endurance.
Other attacks seem more okay, but for a Blaster set to have its first two attacks be the reason why it's weak, is very bad: Blasters can't really afford not to have usable early attacks, it's their bread and butter and they really depend on them. Scrappers get top-end attacks so that they can later respec out of crappy early attacks, but Blasters get AoEs at the end, and thus use their early blasts from levels 1 to 50.
Those early two blasts for Archery are the worst in the AT, with the possible exception of Flares. And consider how many guides suggest to skip Flares.
[ QUOTE ]
Archery has the highest Accuracy in the game. All powers have an accuracy of 1.16. Ranged shot, the sniper attack, has an accuracy of 1.39.
So that like getting 1 free ACC DO in all Archery powers. Against a target with no defense, thats a 87% chance ToHit.
In comparison, most powers in the game have an accuracy of 1. Most sniper attacks have an accuracy of 1.2. Assault Rifle has an ACC of 1.05 (1.25 for thier sniper attack).
[/ QUOTE ]
I wish this were in the Dev's forum but oh well.
I don't know if the Dev's have their own opinions regarding the balancing process but my limited observations are as follows:
Dev's, dealing with what they do, have an almost purely technical understanding of AT's.
Statesman has an almost purely theoretical understanding. Having read a ton of his justifications for recent AT adjustments and subsequent responses, I think there is reasoning at work that "looks good on paper," but for whatever reason does not pan out in practice. I can't imagine that either the dev's or Statesman play enough to have as good a feel for these things as players who put thoughtful and informed posts out here.
My suggestion would be to simply roll two equal level blasters, one an archer, and the other...well whatever. Play for 20 minutes and see how they "feel" in comparison. I'm sure anyone would notice a significant discrepancy, as I have between my Archer & Fire Blaster.
[ QUOTE ]
Statesman has an almost purely theoretical understanding.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is unfair and untrue. Statesman plays the game. He's said he plays the game, and he's proven he plays the game. When people won the "Group with Statesman" contest at a con, plenty of people posted that he knew how to play the with a group really well.
Just because the devs use math a lot doesn't mean their knowledge is purely theoretical. That's just the most useful information for them to give us, since that's factual and their individual play sessions are just anecdotes that we could have already had ourselves.
That doesn't mean our input is worthless. They play, sometimes we play differently. I disagree with the devs on this issue, but let's not belittle them. They definitely have more than theoretical knowledge, they play the game.
I've tried building both a TA/A and a A/Dev...but I just delete them every time. I hate the feel. I hate the end burn. And even at the low levels, that lovely Acc boost doesn't help that much...they would still whiff extremely frequently.
Yes, /Dev does help BECAUSE of TD, but TD helps any set do more damage (though the loss of BU does hurt to a point)since it allows all primaries to slot 6 damage. Any other /Dev build will still have higher DPE.
Everyone I play with in my community have tried TA and Archery, and have been deleting every toon they make with these sets because of the complaints here: the Endurance usage is WAY too high for the very weak damage and slow activation times (or, as TA goes, is just not even worth it to play). A guy who has a 33 Claw/SR scrapper thinks TA is gimp...that should tell you something.
"A good Defender is the battle hardened Corpsman who will kill a Nazi with a tongue depressor while putting a splint on your leg, then hand you a fresh clip of ammo." ~Jock_Thompson
Repeat Offenders, TNT Profile, My little hero
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Statesman has an almost purely theoretical understanding.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is unfair and untrue. Statesman plays the game. He's said he plays the game, and he's proven he plays the game. When people won the "Group with Statesman" contest at a con, plenty of people posted that he knew how to play the with a group really well.
Just because the devs use math a lot doesn't mean their knowledge is purely theoretical. That's just the most useful information for them to give us, since that's factual and their individual play sessions are just anecdotes that we could have already had ourselves.
That doesn't mean our input is worthless. They play, sometimes we play differently. I disagree with the devs on this issue, but let's not belittle them. They definitely have more than theoretical knowledge, they play the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
You should have read my post more closely. I don't doubt he and the dev's play. But I am positive neither he nor the dev's have enough time to play as much as the diehards who make very informed observations about various aspects of the game, many of which seem to go largely disregarded for enormous lengths of time.
There are probably plenty of examples, but I'll just toss out DA scrappers and their previous endurance problems. Statesman was sure there was nothing wrong with DA in comparison to other sets. Then almost whimsically he decided to listen right before I5 came out. Very strange from what I have read because it seems there are other character sets that have equally troublesome problems that have not been addressed well. To me Archery is to Blasters what DA used to be to scrappers.
[ QUOTE ]
Dev's, dealing with what they do, have an almost purely technical understanding of AT's.
Statesman has an almost purely theoretical understanding. Having read a ton of his justifications for recent AT adjustments and subsequent responses, I think there is reasoning at work that "looks good on paper," but for whatever reason does not pan out in practice. I can't imagine that either the dev's or Statesman play enough to have as good a feel for these things as players who put thoughtful and informed posts out here.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that's true: the devs are much, much more likely to be dismissive of "paper analysis" than anything else.
The problem is two-fold: first: almost anything can be made to work by at least someone, and what people enjoy doing is highly variable. Ironically, even though the devs keep calling us (the forum posters) 5% of the playerbase, I doubt any single dev has played enough to team with more than 5% of the player base either, which means the sum total of opinions that the devs themselves have, plus every single player they have ever encountered, is probably of a similar minority. They can have just as much of a skewed perspective on what people like and dislike, what works and doesn't work, as they claim we do. When all you see is a small subset of the population, its easy to think that they roughly represent the average population of your users, and they might not.
This is very common: dismissing other people's experiences as anecdotes, while valuing your own anecdotes as experience. An easy trap to fall into: as everyone will attest to, if someone says something is possible that you think is impossible, they're probably wrong, and if someone says something is impossible you know to be possible, they are definitely wrong. There aren't a lot of rules of thumb that generally suggest someone else is probably right.
Two: the devs reluctance to share numbers and formulae mean that often - I believe - they are highly dismissive of "paper analysis" because they feel its irrelevant due to being incomplete: their own MegaExcel calculator says it should work, so anyone else who demonstrates differently obviously either didn't take enough things into account, or isn't analyzing correctly.
I'm not saying this happens universally; they have on occasion listened carefully to the player base, but I would bet heavily that both of these effects are in play when the devs "listen" to us.
Attempting to convince the devs of anything is like attempting to win a game of CalvinBall: the devs can take the discussion anywhere they want (the devs make up the rules), the devs will not tell you if you are arguing a point they feel is irrelevant (the devs will not tell you what the rules are), and the devs can elect to not respond if they don't feel the discussion is on point (the devs can declare victory if you don't follow the rules). And the devs are under no obligation to play if they don't want to.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
To be honest, I really don't know what role the dev's have in the input/reponse process. I know there is one but they also spend time coding. To their credit, I'm suggesting that they are so embedded in the work they do to manage CoH that they really have no objective way of knowing how AT's and characters REALLY succeed or fail. Same goes for Statesman.
Regarding anecdotes, I don't think summing up all of the time that leads to getting a character to 50 constitutes one. This is a massive time commitment, perhaps a pathetic one, that has given a number of players a pretty sound foundation upon which to base their observations. I'm no math whiz but I imagine the time it takes to get a character to 50, once added up, would be astounding to those of us that try not to think about it . There are plenty of players that have several 50's. Is it possible that either Statesman or any of the Dev's have played a character from 1-50 via the intended routine? How about several?
Bottome line is, can anyone really claim that the dev's or Statesman know better than serious players how an AT variation is succeeding or failing? Or at least that they know first?
Wow. What a bunch of petulant children.
Address the concerns in a calm and rational manner.
Stating "the dev/customer relationship blah blah blah" or "nerf SOs lol" makes you sound like a child.
Grow up.
That said, I think the gentleman who suggested lowering "casting" times for Archery powers could offset the damage decrease and bring the set up to par with the rest...IF this is a problem.
An issue like this is EXACLTY why there's data mining in the first place. If it seems that your dps is being affected, it's pretty likely there will be a change to compensate.
Add to this the fact that Concern is posting and you've got a thread that attracts more anti-dev trolls than usual.