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So I'm right. blasters are comedic relief. the [censored] Clowns of CoH.
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So all you have to do now is join the super group...
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I went away from the computer to check on some CoV stuff and *wham* I received 5 or so PM's asking "what is the Blaster's role?"
Answer - Ranged damage. Now, the issue is more specifically - what does a Blaster do that a Scrapper can't already do? Or, even worse, is a Scrapper inherently "stronger" than a Blaster. We want each Archetype to have a well defined role, and part of our Scrapper testing is aimed directly at this.
Secondly, I have no intention of removing melee attacks - it's just a "perception" by some Blasters that some of the Secondary Sets aren't as useful as Devices or Energy Manipulation. This is a rather frequent refrain in PM's (and the occasional forum post). This is something that we should also explore...we want all the Secondary sets to be fun.
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it's just a "perception" by some Blasters that some of the Secondary Sets aren't as useful as Devices or Energy Manipulation.
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If "by some" you mean the vast majority, then I would say I agree with you.
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Well +1 isn't "vast". 3 bad, 2 good. At worst. Otherwise, the majority turns around, and it is equally "vast".
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Vast majority referred to players, not sets. The perception by "some" players (aka, nearly everybody in the known universe, less, apparently, Statesman) is that Fire, Ice, and Electricity Manipulation aren't nearly as good as Energy Manip and Devices.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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Green Arrow. In one of the episodes of JLU, he took on Wildcat hand to hand. Although he didn't defeat him, he was still able to hold him off for some time.
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Actually at the beginning of that episode he proves that we was a very accomplished hand to hand fighter. What he did in the ring against Wildcat was intentionally take a Dive as he never actually fought back and still wasn't knocked out before putting himself in the "Stasis" death-like state.
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Why is ranged/control overpowered? We're talking about blasters being to controllers as controllers are to defenders.
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Ooh, ouch, I wouldn't go there 
There's a whole platoon of folks in the Defender forum quite unhappy with the actual Stats on that whole situation.
Infact My own controllers have lead me to be rather disgusted with the situation as well as I was simply a "BuffBot with pets. No one wanted CrowdControl, they just wanted a Defender that summoned Mini-scrappers
...Odly enough here's a bunch of Blasters saying that they'd be Balanced if they got more Ranged Control. ...Well here's what ya do, dig around the low level areas and find one of the dozens of controllers Looking for a Team for the last hour and SK him up to help you "solo" your mission.
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You know, thats so obvious it's brilliant! Controllers of our level can't be bother, but those 16s brawling for hour after hour in Steel Canyon would sure love a helpful friend. And they'll be a huge help.
Be a Blaster. Adopt a controller. Hell, maybe after you've helped him get to 32, he'll even let you still hang out with him.
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This is a sad fact I noted in another of these Blaster Woes threads. In an ideal world Mr. Defense/Defense and Mr. Offense/Offense should want to team with each other, and the two of them together should make any two Offense/Defense ATs look like pikers.
But, that's not how it is. The two ATs need help in the exact opposite ends of the game. The low level powers controllers have do little to assist blasters even if they wanted help, and the same is true of what blastters are good at the point where controllers get their pets.
Controllers often say "the best pet in my arsenal is a scrapper". God, if only we could replace scrapper with blaster in that sentence!
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No AT is "needed".
Worring about the small number of Scrapper ranged attacks is focusing in the wrong place.
"Blasters have way more range and have more cones/AEs than scrappers, and it's not enough because..."
There's how you begin a reasonable discussion on this topic.
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Pilcrow for teh win!
I'd hate to see this game become one in which any specific AT is necessary for a majority of missions.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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Why is ranged/control overpowered? We're talking about blasters being to controllers as controllers are to defenders.
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Ooh, ouch, I wouldn't go there
There's a whole platoon of folks in the Defender forum quite unhappy with the actual Stats on that whole situation.
Infact My own controllers have lead me to be rather disgusted with the situation as well as I was simply a "BuffBot with pets. No one wanted CrowdControl, they just wanted a Defender that summoned Mini-scrappers
...Odly enough here's a bunch of Blasters saying that they'd be Balanced if they got more Ranged Control. ...Well here's what ya do, dig around the low level areas and find one of the dozens of controllers Looking for a Team for the last hour and SK him up to help you "solo" your mission.
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You know, thats so obvious it's brilliant! Controllers of our level can't be bother, but those 16s brawling for hour after hour in Steel Canyon would sure love a helpful friend. And they'll be a huge help.
Be a Blaster. Adopt a controller. Hell, maybe after you've helped him get to 32, he'll even let you still hang out with him.
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This is a sad fact I noted in another of these Blaster Woes threads. In an ideal world Mr. Defense/Defense and Mr. Offense/Offense should want to team with each other, and the two of them together should make any two Offense/Defense ATs look like pikers.
But, that's not how it is. The two ATs need help in the exact opposite ends of the game. The low level powers controllers have do little to assist blasters even if they wanted help, and the same is true of what blastters are good at the point where controllers get their pets.
Controllers often say "the best pet in my arsenal is a scrapper". God, if only we could replace scrapper with blaster in that sentence!
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Hey, I love teaming with controllers. Me and a friendly Fire/Kin tore through the Rikti Crash site. We only had to stop because we got tired (both our sets are very click happy in terms of defense).
I seriously do think _Irl_'s comment was genious, even if it was perhaps meant as a joke.
If it makes you feel better, as a storm def, i really like blasters and empaths. (empath for me, not the blaster)
sure they have.... and batman and wolverine are in the backdrop laughing they're [censored] off.
What Blasters need to do (IMHO)
SOLO:
Blasters need to be able to defeat a standard city spawn before it defeats them most of the time. This means, they should be able to 1- or 2- shot a white minion, and defeat an even-level LT with 3 to 6 attacks.
(Other ATs can do less damage solo, because it should take the standard spawn more hits to defeat them.)
PVP:
2 Blasters, working in sync, should be able to take down any other single AT before it can take either of them out (This is also true about any other team of archetypes in the arena. Any pair should be able to quickly defeat any loner). Yes, Tankers too. This means that a single Blaster should be able to do about 15% of an even-level Tanker's hp per shot (Mileage may vary, based on the Tanker's specific defenses). This way they have a chence of defeating the Tanker before catches and 2- or 3- shots one of them.
TEAMS
A Blaster should enable any team to defeat stronger and more numerous enemies than they would be able to otherwise.
Blasters should be invited to any team looking for AoE damage, or just more damage.
The Blaster should do this via AoE attacks, adding damage that the other ATs can't, or damaging foes safely while the other ATs neutralize them.
A Blaster teamed with a Scrapper has just doubled the damage potential of either alone. Also while the Scrapper keeps aggro off of the Blaster, the Blaster keeps the Scrapper safe by defeating enemies quickly so that they do less damage to the Scrapper.
SECONDARIES
A Blaster's melee secondaries should be sufficient to finish off an enemy that has managed to close through the Blaster's ranged attacks, or allow the Blaster to escape melee long enough to counterattack.
A Blaster's non-melee secondaries should provide a range of utility abilities in theme with the specific powerset (without overshadowing other ATs).
WEAKNESSES
A Blaster on a team should need teammates to protect him from the increased number and power of enemies.
Solo, the Blaster should (like all other ATs) be able to handle a standard spawn of his level, but will face downtime due to a lack of self healing and self protection.
Agree? Disagree?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Jeez. I get home a little later than normal, and I miss the chance to actually respond before the new threads went insane. Statesman, please read down this far, and hopefully see this.
The inherent problem with Range vs. Melee is that the difference in range vs. melee when fighting enemies lessens at the later levels. Early on, it's painfully obvious how much more powerful melee is than range against us; at the later levels, the various degrees of ranged effects - including mezzes that the melee'rs don't have to deal with - and the amount of enemies that only attack at range that have their ranged damage boosted to compensate make that difference shrink massively. Tie this into the defenses that the meleers get to make up for that original difference... and your reasoning for the difference in the damage cap flies out the window. They have the defenses to make up for their lack of range and then some; saying they're at more risk due to where they fight is ludicrous.
Controllers and Defenders are ranged too, but guess what? They have damn good forms of damage mitigation - or, at least, most of them do. They can easily make up for their squishiness at the new range, and they gain offense to compensate by the later levels.
Blasters... I don't see them as necessarily "Ranged" damage as utilitarian damage - ranged, melee, you name it - they can dish it out. I also understand, unlike seemingly countless new people to the boards here, why the melee powers are so much more powerful than the ranged attacks: because you have to give them an incentive to take them. If they were the same power or weaker - like they used to be - no one would ever take them, and people would simply ask, "Why are these here?"
I'm the last person you'll ever see ask to have the melee powers taken away. The difference with /Dev and /Energy compared to the other sets is that they have very few worthless powers, and they all have different themes. The basic designs behind those themes, however, is what causes them to suffer.
If you want to make all of the secondaries fun, then remove, improve, or change the powers that the vast majority of players deem worthless from them. Give each of them - much like the Defender primaries / Controller secondaries - their own theme... and stick to it. Also keep in mind checks and balances, and keep it useful at the same time.
The very idea that Devices and Energy - about as different of sets that you can get - are the most useful secondaries explores this. Devices isn't as much about damage (the mines and auto turret withstanding) as it is about trapping the enemy and supplying utility to the Blaster. All of its powers support this.
Energy? It's all about extreme melee damage, combined with powerful self-buffs and single-target control through disorientation. It's all about crushing your foe extremely quickly, hopping in and out of melee range, and using the buffs to put yourself to extreme levels of power for short durations - right when you need the buffs.
Electricity has a wonderful theme going, very similar to Energy: extreme melee damage combined with control via endurance drain. The problem with this is that endurance drain, when applied to enemies, is an all-or-nothing proposition; you either make them completely worthless permanently... or it has no effect. This doesn't take place until you both drain them completely and prevent their endurance regeneration. When you take that into consideration, the endurance drain of the Electricity secondary means little to nothing. This is where the problem appears with it: without that controlling mitigation and pure power to match with Energy's disorients and buffs, Electricity suddenly suffers quite badly.
Ice? Once again, another unique theme, and a very well-used one as well: control in various forms at the sacrifice of the damage that the other elemental sets provide. It has several wonderful powers, including Ice Patch (continuous knockdown = control), Shiver (extreme slow = mitigation), and Freezing Touch (extremely fast animation melee hold = control). The problem is that some of the powers - Chilling Embrace and Frozen Aura, to name two - match this theme, but their effects have drawbacks that make them not as useful to the Blaster as they originally seem. Chilling Embrace requires the Blaster to stay in melee range with the enemy, and it doesn't actually control the enemy - and the net result is less survivability for the Blaster, not more. Frozen Aura would work incredibly well, but it has a low magnitude and it alerts enemies to the Blaster's presence before it takes effect... unlike most of the useful Controller sleeps, which don't draw nearly as much aggro when used (if any at all, can't remember). The set is good, without any inherent flaws, but it doesn't necessarily scream out as being very good. That's where the problem usually lies.
Fire's theme? Pure melee PBAoE power. The problem with this is that it has nearly no mitigation or utility as a whole - which is what Blasters usually look for their secondary sets to provide. Consume is useful, yes, but that's where the line ends; without any kind of mitigation, how can you expect a Blaster to be able to enter melee range to use the rest of the powers? Hot Feet keeps enemies from running away... Burn requires the Blaster to stay within melee range to keep the enemies within it... Burning Aura requires the Blaster to stay in melee range with his enemies to have any effect at all. The set is fundamentally flawed as its use requires the Blaster to actually have less means of mitigating damage than they would without the set. This is why it suffers and is considered by most Blasters on this board to be complete garbage.
You want Blasters to be good at range? Make being ranged vs. being in melee actually make a greater difference at higher levels, or give us more ways to mitigate damage at range with our secondaries, with more choices available to us. You don't have to take out the melee powers to do this, either; this is why the different sets have different themes. Until then, you'll see the massive imbalance between the ATs.
@Shenalia
Triumph: Ion Force (SG)
Victory: Evil Triumphs (VG)
Proud member of the Triumphant Defenders Coalition.
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Try to think of a single team, a single situation, a single time in game where a team trying to decided between two potential teammates would say "No, lets not take the scrapper, let's take the blaster!"
[/ QUOTE ] Arakhn. You were trying to make a point that I'd like to agree with...but you overdid it a little.
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Why? AoEs? So in effect the scrapper will die as fast as the blaster? I'm still not seeing preference.
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Dark Regeneration. HowEVER, I have recently seen a handful of tankers say that scrappers are too much of a liability in AV fights as compared to blasters because the AV's AOEs do too much damage and thus take up too much defender attention. I disagree that scrappers are that high-maintenance, but it does come up.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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"Blasters have way more range and have more cones/AEs than scrappers, and it's not enough because..."
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... there is no real reason for a Blaster to stay at range.
THAT is the problem, IMHO. As long as the amount of time you survive at range is approximately the same as the time you survive in melee (two seconds compared to one second) there is no real advantage to range.
A Blaster should be able to survive considerably longer at range than he does in melee. By a large factor, maybe ten or more. I believe that's what the devs have intended, it's what Statesman is trying to say, and its true prior to 25.
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Blasters are supposed to shine in a team. That means two things. #1 they shouldn't be able to reach their full potential without a team and #2 when on a team, they should be able to.
Sadly, #2 is not true, but that's what needs to be fixed. You seem to want to change #1.
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Sadly is Right! WAY too many posters in this Thread are just crying "GodMode me !!!" like it's the only way they think they can be Balanced. ..Especially Heph who's back for his usual song and dance on the subject. The actual number of people talking specifically about Shining in Team Play can be counted on one hand. It doesn't look like the Devs will be getting much useable unfiltered information from this thread 
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So Havok has NEVER made an uppercut? He has NEVER punched another character? Cyclops has NEVER kicked or punched anyone? Green Arrow never has? No Blaster in the history of comics has EVER thrown a punch?
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That's not much justification for putting all those melee attacks in the secondary. Blasters who melee almost universally are using common normal attacks. Punches like Brawl, Boxing, or Air Superiority. Kicks like, well, Kick. Occasionally using some real skill, but never anything like the real martial arts heroes use - even allegedly normal martial artists like Batman. No, when Blasters in comic books are fighting in melee, it's pool powers they're using, almost universally.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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Blasters are supposed to shine in a team. That means two things. #1 they shouldn't be able to reach their full potential without a team and #2 when on a team, they should be able to.
Sadly, #2 is not true, but that's what needs to be fixed. You seem to want to change #1.
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Sadly is Right! WAY too many posters in this Thread are just crying "GodMode me !!!" like it's the only way they think they can be Balanced. ..Especially Heph who's back for his usual song and dance on the subject. The actual number of people talking specifically about Shining in Team Play can be counted on one hand. It doesn't look like the Devs will be getting much useable unfiltered information from this thread
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oh bull [censored] you [censored] moron. I never asked for godmode. you're just flame baiting. take it elsewhere you dumb [censored]. Failing that show me ONE instance in ANY THREAD where I asked for godmode. or even scrapper level defense.
freaking chump.
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sure they have.... and batman and wolverine are in the backdrop laughing they're [censored] off.
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And everybody knows that the X-Men are constantly going, "We don't need Cyclops, Wolverine does just as much damage. And we don't need to hand hold Wolverine all the time. Cyclops, what a wuss... He can't fire a shot without being faceplanted. Even Jean can't protect him. And what's with him always knocking Colossus's foes away from him?"
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Blasters are supposed to shine in a team. That means two things. #1 they shouldn't be able to reach their full potential without a team and #2 when on a team, they should be able to.
Sadly, #2 is not true, but that's what needs to be fixed. You seem to want to change #1.
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Sadly is Right! WAY too many posters in this Thread are just crying "GodMode me !!!" like it's the only way they think they can be Balanced. ..Especially Heph who's back for his usual song and dance on the subject. The actual number of people talking specifically about Shining in Team Play can be counted on one hand. It doesn't look like the Devs will be getting much useable unfiltered information from this thread
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No thats a regen scrappers job.....and they cry when they are threatened to loose GodMode. GodMode is for the tanks and yet they wont get rid of it for the regen scrappers. So plz, leave our justified ranting alone.
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Blasters are supposed to shine in a team. That means two things. #1 they shouldn't be able to reach their full potential without a team and #2 when on a team, they should be able to.
Sadly, #2 is not true, but that's what needs to be fixed. You seem to want to change #1.
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Sadly is Right! WAY too many posters in this Thread are just crying "GodMode me !!!" like it's the only way they think they can be Balanced. ..Especially Heph who's back for his usual song and dance on the subject. The actual number of people talking specifically about Shining in Team Play can be counted on one hand. It doesn't look like the Devs will be getting much useable unfiltered information from this thread
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See, I'd be satisfied with shining in teams. Hell, to be honest, my blaster is satisfied right now. It is all the other Powersets that I'd rather see have their own place, and do as well as mine (yeah I know that elec is supposed to be gimp, but. . .).
The thing is almost no other AT, even defenders and controllers (well, poor Emps and FFs, and I'm all for them getting some help as well) need others to fight things that most blasters would never even try.
I personally don't see why blasters being the same would be that unfair. You seem to have a large number of characters _Ilr_(as do I), can you say that some other AT is as hard to solo at the finale as blasters?
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Why is ranged/control overpowered? We're talking about blasters being to controllers as controllers are to defenders.
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Ooh, ouch, I wouldn't go there
There's a whole platoon of folks in the Defender forum quite unhappy with the actual Stats on that whole situation.
Infact My own controllers have lead me to be rather disgusted with the situation as well as I was simply a "BuffBot with pets. No one wanted CrowdControl, they just wanted a Defender that summoned Mini-scrappers
...Odly enough here's a bunch of Blasters saying that they'd be Balanced if they got more Ranged Control. ...Well here's what ya do, dig around the low level areas and find one of the dozens of controllers Looking for a Team for the last hour and SK him up to help you "solo" your mission.
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You know, thats so obvious it's brilliant! Controllers of our level can't be bother, but those 16s brawling for hour after hour in Steel Canyon would sure love a helpful friend. And they'll be a huge help.
Be a Blaster. Adopt a controller. Hell, maybe after you've helped him get to 32, he'll even let you still hang out with him.
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That's sad, but so true.
*goes out to become a foster parent of a low level controller*
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So Havok has NEVER made an uppercut? He has NEVER punched another character? Cyclops has NEVER kicked or punched anyone? Green Arrow never has? No Blaster in the history of comics has EVER thrown a punch?
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That's not much justification for putting all those melee attacks in the secondary. Blasters who melee almost universally are using common normal attacks. Punches like Brawl, Boxing, or Air Superiority. Kicks like, well, Kick. Occasionally using some real skill, but never anything like the real martial arts heroes use - even allegedly normal martial artists like Batman. No, when Blasters in comic books are fighting in melee, it's pool powers they're using, almost universally.
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Because if those attacks were in the pools, and usefull enough to be used by blasters when in a melee situation, then those attacks are ALL any other at wanting attacks would take.
I mean really, Charged Brawl does 4.5 BI, Havok Punch does 8.2 BI, Frozen Fists does 4.5 BI, and hack does 4.5 BI(with slower activation and rchg and higher endo cost of CB/Frozen Fists), smite is 3.6 BI, Disembowl is 5.4 BI for braodsword and 5.0 BI for Katana, Crane Kick is 4.5, eagles claw is 5.5...
If the pool powers were good enough to be used as backup for a blaster (i.E. they must be better than the blasts), then they would be stupidly fantasitically uber for a scrapper or tanker, and they would all end up using pool attacks and be even better.
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sure they have.... and batman and wolverine are in the backdrop laughing they're [censored] off.
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And everybody knows that the X-Men are constantly going, "We don't need Cyclops, Wolverine does just as much damage. And we don't need to hand hold Wolverine all the time. Cyclops, what a wuss... He can't fire a shot without being faceplanted. Even Jean can't protect him. And what's with him always knocking Colossus's foes away from him?"
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dude... why are you even bringing this crap up. you know and I know that comic book blasters don't translate in coh.
matter of fact most heroes don't translate. what would the bat be? super reflexes, brawling martial artists, with devices? cut the crap. blasters exsist ..... to blast. they use melee attacks about as often as wolverine uses an assault rifle. Hell I haven't seen the Iceman use a melee attack since that ridiculous club he had when he looked like frosty the snowman.
If you just gotta go on fine... I'm bored.
if you are bored, reply to my counterpoints(2-3 of my posts ago)
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That's not much justification for putting all those melee attacks in the secondary.
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What "all those melee attacks" are you talking about? Have you even been reading my posts?
It you're talking about just eliminating all melee attacks but those in the Pool, well, I think that's a little extreme. We can keep one or two attacks. Even Devices has Taser. And there's something to be said for a melee attack that "follows theme", even if it's just one. Sure, Cyclops punches or kicks, but Green Arrow uses his bow as a staff. Starfire's strength is a buff, it makes her eyes turn green. And Dagger even once formed a sword out of light.
What you seem to be saying is, "If you don't use it all the time, you can't use it at all." Cyclops the character may have martial arts, but you can't have that as a Power because he doesn't use it all the time. I think you underestimate just how often he does use it.
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if you are bored, reply to my counterpoints(2-3 of my posts ago)
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and you are?
Dude I have to maintain 50 servers alone.... I can't even remember what my wife said 2-3 days ago, let along your counterpoints. And honestly man... being the loud mouthed self righteous opinonated type I am.... do you REALLY think I even read them?
hahahahahahaha. I don't know who's more full of themselves. me or you.
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I do not choose to ignore it. it's simply laughable.
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No, it requires you to have the initiave. Blaster defences are based on being first(which is why i suggested the activation time decrease, 2 posts before this one), and then using the effects to your best benefit.
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save it for someone who hasen't played to damn near to 50 with 3 archetypes.
For the most part those secondaries are garbage. It's like playing half a freaking archetype. They're not even real secondaries. And they are definitely not equal. even the BEST of them are sorely lacking. Energy is too full of fisticuffs and devices lacks the ommph of build up. them mines are as buggy as a damned roach motel too.
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I will not save it for anyone else, as someone who has played a rad/rad defender, an inv/em tank and fire/fire blaster into the 50's, you should know the intracacies of nearly every single powerset combination in the game. You should know that /fire is not as strong for soloing as /elec and you should know that /elec doesnt offer as much extra damage in a team as /fire. You should know that sleeps are near useless in groups and wonderful when alone.
You should be able to create an effective blapper. You should be able to create an Team AoE monster(heck you should have one), that with minimal numbers of attacks can deal over nuke damage so long as you have a tank to keep the aggro off of you. You should be able to make a tank-fender out of dark/ and storm/(especaily dark), you should be able to make an SS tank deal nearly as much damage as a scrapper, you should be able to make a DA scrapper an INV/SR hybrid with three toggles, and you should be able to find a use for /elec, /fire, and /ice.
And if you cant, then it is not the fault of the powersets, though they are certianly not as intuitive, and certianly not all good for the same reasons. If you can not, then it is your fault.
Blasters do have some issues, however, these issues are not things that cannot be easily fixed.
As i have mentioned a simple fix to the blaster secondaries would be..
1. All activation times are set to 1 second
2. All controll powers are ranged(short)
3. Chilling Embrace and Hot Feet get and FR type Fear effect(as of i4, able to be countered slightly by tanker taunts).
The increases the control of blasters so that they dont need to be right next to enemies to let them off, this increases the damage done in melee, this adds melee defence to ice and fire, and this preserves and increases the ability of the blaster to be first and so survive in melee.