[ QUOTE ]
Now, the issue is more specifically - what does a Blaster do that a Scrapper can't already do?
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the answer here is "damage to massed groups of villains" (although that brings up the issue of the blasters that are more single-target). Sticking with this premise for a moment, though, the problem here has to be separated into the team issues vs. the solo issues.
Solo, the AoE blaster can generally take down the minions in his missions, but he's not doing so in the way that maximizes his damage potential, which is, ultimately, ranged. Solo, an AoE blaster is best off hunting in hazard zones, where he can find massed packs of minions. It is just as efficient for this kind of build to take on a group of ten tightly-packed whites as it is to defeat three separated whites in a mission. Moreover, many missions are likely to contain an end boss, which is the bane of blasters. Status effects are also deadly for blasters.
In solo missions, AoE blasters start off very strong (arguably stronger than scrappers, since range is hugely valuable at low levels), but ultimately become inferior to scrappers, who can efficient take down those three minions, one at a time, who have both reasonable defenses against damage, as well as strong status protections.
Teamed, an AoE blaster has the large packs that his targets are efficient on, and this makes him a very valuable addition to the team. Some of his inherent weaknesses are offset via the capabilities the team brings. However, AoE blasters are often unable to use their abilities to the fullest, because of the tremendous aggro that they generate -- aggro that the blaster does not have the defenses to survive. They are, essentially, more dependent upon their teammates to ensure their survival than any other AT is (with the possible exception of low-level controllers) -- and still they die, a lot.
The scrapper is a well-rounded solo set and consequently fairly self-sufficient in teams, with a role of facing down the biggest and baddest thing there. The role of the blaster is, more realistically, the mass minion killer. They need to be given enough defenses to survive that role. Blasters can level just as quickly as scrappers, in terms of XP kills per minute. But they end up falling behind the curve because of debt.
While defenders built specifically for offense can reach blaster-like levels of damage, these builds are not the norm, and they're generally built to solo rather than to team. (Overall, I believe that these builds level more slowly than blasters do, not reaching their full potential until the 40s.)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is ranged/control overpowered?
[/ QUOTE ] How do you make a control power 75% (or 66%) as effective, then they have a simple 2-4 scale of magnitude? If you lower it by one, you make them horribly weak. If you don't lower them, controllers become useless by comparison.
I think what you end up doing is severely limiting the targets. I think there wouldn't be much problem with blasters having some single-target control effects in their secondary...
[/ QUOTE ]
How about mezz length? That seems about right. To bad none of the control primaries fit my concept. BE would probably be a defender if that is what had happened. FF/elec.
[/ QUOTE ]
How bout weaker controls. Like immobilizes, slows and single target holds, but not AE holds.
Oh, right, Blasters already have those and IT'S NOT ENOUGH!
Nor will it ever be enough and be balanced because if you give blasters enough defense to deliver their full offense solo, why would they want to do anything but solo?
Blasters are supposed to shine in a team. That means two things. #1 they shouldn't be able to reach their full potential without a team and #2 when on a team, they should be able to.
Sadly, #2 is not true, but that's what needs to be fixed. You seem to want to change #1.
[/ QUOTE ]
Me? No. I just didn't see a problem in that, as it seems every other AT is about as good solo as in a team in the late game, besides blasters.
I like the secondaries they have now, I just would like them made more effective, so that blasters can have a hope of soloing as well as every other AT, and give some minor control value to a team. After all, should "support" sometimes apply to the team as well?
[ QUOTE ]
I do not choose to ignore it. it's simply laughable.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, it requires you to have the initiave. Blaster defences are based on being first(which is why i suggested the activation time decrease, 2 posts before this one), and then using the effects to your best benefit.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is an outrage, Scrappers whine cause they can't take on multiple 4+ bosses and AVs, and can't herd as well any more and they get a written apology
[/ QUOTE ] Please be careful with these generalizations. I'd like to see Blasters helped out, but when I see that kind of blind overgeneralizing and lashing out, it makes it really hard to stay supportive...
[/ QUOTE ]
Where the HELL were you this week? You didn't just see it happen? There was the Biggest Thread ever next to the "Ask a stupid question" thread that degenerated into EXACLTLY that, Regens complaing that they couldn't take on Multiple high level Bosses. And YES, Statesman writing an Apology.
Did he apologize to us DA's who still are subPar for threatening to Nerf us? Hell no he apologized to the Regen-Masses (Which I REMIND everyone, I own a Regen too and helped improve them) , We DA's are in the same boat as the Blasters, the SS-Ignored.
Point is, you must have been watching something completely different this week because what he described it exactly the way it happened.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How bout the martial arts skills Storm used to defeat Cyclops and become leader of the Xmen when she lost her powers, for one example? Cyclops removing his visor for PBAE goodness. Dazzler's PBAE Flash. Gambit's Staff.
[/ QUOTE ]
Probably should have been clearer in my question. I'm taking issue with the idea that the comic-book blaster melee attacks are always a "last resort", and so Blasters in COH should always have to stay out of melee.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, it was MY quote, so I want to say that I agree with you. I never wanted to imply that Blasters can't melee. Quite the opposite, in fact.
What I was trying to say is, a Blaster doesn't WANT to engage in melee, if he can possibly help it. He'll fight back if attacked, but would rather use range to his advantage, maybe closing once the foe is "softened up".
Also, he's more likely to avoid melee with a Tanker or Scrapper, but may close with a Defender or Controller, or even a Blaster. There's no reason to try and stay at range if the foe ATTACKS at range.
Support does help on a team, some not as much as others, but that applies to all AT's
[ QUOTE ]
"what is the Blaster's role?"
Answer - Ranged damage. Now, the issue is more specifically - what does a Blaster do that a Scrapper can't already do?
[/ QUOTE ]Maybe the PMs did not ask the question correctly, or maybe you missed a key element of the question Statesman. (Or maybe I have a problem in how I perceive the question). I thought the question was/should have been 'What is a blaster's role in a group
When I ask 'what is a blasters role, or the role of any archetype for that matter, I really don't care what their perceived role in a solo environment might be. What I want to know is what is their role in a group. Why would a group make a distinction between a blaster and a scrapper.
Range is not the answer to that question. A group, unless it is all blasters, really doesn't care much about range beyond the initial attack, because everything comes rushing in anyway. Is that the blaster's role? To snipe and pull? The best snipe in the game is a defender secondary, so that's not likely.
Don't get me wrong, I don't have a single blaster build that I feel is gimped or anything, but I do often have to hold back when I am in a group, simply because I can't handle all of the aggro. Something I rarely have to worry about with my scrappers.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I do not choose to ignore it. it's simply laughable.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, it requires you to have the initiave. Blaster defences are based on being first(which is why i suggested the activation time decrease, 2 posts before this one), and then using the effects to your best benefit.
[/ QUOTE ]
save it for someone who hasen't played to damn near to 50 with 3 archetypes.
For the most part those secondaries are garbage. It's like playing half a freaking archetype. They're not even real secondaries. And they are definitely not equal. even the BEST of them are sorely lacking. Energy is too full of fisticuffs and devices lacks the ommph of build up. them mines are as buggy as a damned roach motel too.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I do not choose to ignore it. it's simply laughable.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, it requires you to have the initiave. Blaster defences are based on being first(which is why i suggested the activation time decrease, 2 posts before this one), and then using the effects to your best benefit.
[/ QUOTE ]
A good point.
Initiative is terribly critical to the Blaster. In general a Blaster has to be an alert AT as s/he cannot just wade across the battlefield from target to target blindly.
[ QUOTE ]
it's just a "perception" by some
[/ QUOTE ]
Majority isn't just a "some".
Alot of blasters feel this way me included.
You once said Statesman that we were the King of Damage and that isn't true anymore.
You stated that if you use range then the object you are targetting will use range back but you neglected to specify that most of the time the subject will fire once or twice and then close in on you for melee attacks.
You also neglected the fact that nearly every mob post 40 has some kind of Mez in there bag. How is range supposed to help us there?
We have a handicap inspiration as of right now that helps and that's dicipline but that is going away.
I hope you realize that the "Blaster Role" isn't working out quite as you planned.
Theres problems with this AT compared to all the others and I hope you guys start really looking into this.
Our role is no longer defined.
[ QUOTE ]
Did he apologize to us DA's who still are subPar for threatening to Nerf us? Hell no he apologized to the Regen-Masses (Which I REMIND everyone, I own a Regen too and helped improve them) , We DA's are in the same boat as the Blasters, the SS-Ignored.
Point is, you must have been watching something completely different this week because what he described it exactly the way it happened.
[/ QUOTE ] Or playing /DA.
[ QUOTE ]
The Scrapper usually uses his ranged attacks in melee, or just while closing. You aren't going to see a Scrapper "kite". It just doesn't happen.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then you never saw my Spines/Rgn fighting Freak Bosses back when the Issue3 "Boss-Patch" was live 
...No joke, a +1 Tanker could 2-shot a regen. 
[ QUOTE ]
Our role is no longer defined.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure it is. "Debt Sponge" is a role. So is "Concrete Kisser." I'll admit that neither is a particularly attractive option, and they're not a whole lot of fun...but that's the role Blasters currently fill. Tankers shrug off hits that would level a building; Scrappers move through crowds of enemies like the avatar of a death god; Controllers can stop a rampaging elephant in it's tracks without breaking a sweat; Defenders can turn the most powerful blow into a love-tap, or heal critical wounds with a thought; Blasters die, anytime, anywhere, for any reason.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Blasters are supposed to shine in a team. That means two things. #1 they shouldn't be able to reach their full potential without a team and #2 when on a team, they should be able to.
Sadly, #2 is not true, but that's what needs to be fixed. You seem to want to change #1.
[/ QUOTE ]
Me? No. I just didn't see a problem in that, as it seems every other AT is about as good solo as in a team in the late game, besides blasters.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd like to see them be able to team as well as all the other ATs. Solo-wise I'm less concerned. Every AT has a solo sweet spot. Blaster's solo sweet spot comes earler. I'm more worried about their poor teaming capability in the late game, BUT if they could fix both in a balanced way, I'd be all for it.
[ QUOTE ]
I like the secondaries they have now, I just would like them made more effective, so that blasters can have a hope of soloing as well as every other AT, and give some minor control value to a team. After all, should "support" sometimes apply to the team as well?
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, if they want to provide non-damage support to the team, they should roll a Defender. Blasters support the team by taking the MOBs out, not by controlling them. Support is self-support.
But here's another place where Blasters and Controllers share a problem. One of the main attributes of controls is they drop toggles, but the MOBs have too few toggles to make that a big deal.
One of the main things an AT chock full of ranged attacks can do is interrupt powers, but the MOBs don't have enough interruptable powers to make that a big deal.
Not that adding a bunch of interruption would fix things, but there's a way a ranged AT can support a team much better than a melee one - if only they made it mean anything.
losing disciplines will crush blasters.
"if you use ranged attacks the mobs will use ranged attacks"
That's right buckethead. they'll blast you off your feet with rikti enerigy cannons then cut you in half with a couple sword strikes.
but you didn't know that didja? don't see that down in the data mines.
[ QUOTE ]
First... Starfire is no blaster. she's a ranged scrapper. She has superhuman strenght, and can take a lot of damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Starfire is a Blaster. She fights like a Blaster. She has abilities that put her in the tank mage category, but then, so does Iron Man. Also, she was not nearly so resiliant in earlier episodes. (She was knocked unconscious by one bullet from one of Slade's henchmen, and had to be rescued by Robin)
[ QUOTE ]
Next... you rarely EVER see cyclops use a melee attacks. his blasts can penetrate steel, pulverize mountain tops, and crush whole buildings. he has control of his power down to the most minute level. A richocheting blast that can clock enemies from any angle... and he CONTROLS his knockback.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, yes, obviously. Who would use a karate chop when they can level a mountain with beams from their eyes?
Note, however, that this in no way contradicts the fact that he knows martial arts.
[ QUOTE ]
And yeah.... green arrow held his own for about 20 seconds... then that old man made a mockery of him. he could have easily have put him to waste in 3 or 4 shots. hell the black canary could have cleaned his longjohns in the same amount of time.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's the whole point. Green Arrow knew he was outclassed. He knew good and well he wasn't going to win as long as he didn't use his ranged attacks. He was counting on that.
Perfect example of a Blaster. He has melee abilities, he can hold his own against a normal person, but he knows full well when going up against other superhumans, he needs to use his ranged attacks.
[ QUOTE ]
Blasters in comics "blast" that's all they have to do... hell if you were havock would you bother with an uppercut? super heated cosmic plasma...helllllooooooooo?
[/ QUOTE ]
So Havok has NEVER made an uppercut? He has NEVER punched another character? Cyclops has NEVER kicked or punched anyone? Green Arrow never has? No Blaster in the history of comics has EVER thrown a punch?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Our role is no longer defined.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure it is. "Debt Sponge" is a role. So is "Concrete Kisser." I'll admit that neither is a particularly attractive option, and they're not a whole lot of fun...but that's the role Blasters currently fill. Tankers shrug off hits that would level a building; Scrappers move through crowds of enemies like the avatar of a death god; Controllers can stop a rampaging elephant in it's tracks without breaking a sweat; Defenders can turn the most powerful blow into a love-tap, or heal critical wounds with a thought; Blasters die, anytime, anywhere, for any reason.
[/ QUOTE ]
blasters exsist to take the one shot kill that would have killed a more valuable squishy.
[ QUOTE ]
blasters exsist to take the one shot kill that would have killed a more valuable squishy.
[/ QUOTE ]
I thought that was the tanker's job. 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
blasters exsist to take the one shot kill that would have killed a more valuable squishy.
[/ QUOTE ]
I thought that was the tanker's job.
[/ QUOTE ]
It is--but unfortunately...
1.) It doesn't kill the tanker. It barely inconveniences him. And...
2.) Our alpha pulls all of the aggro off of the tanker just long enough for us to die. Then the mobs go back to giving the tanker a nice Swedish Massage.
[ QUOTE ]
[...] if you give blasters enough defense to deliver their full offense solo, why would they want to do anything but solo?
[/ QUOTE ]
I dunno. Scrappers have enough defense to deliver their full offense solo, so why would they want to do anything but solo?
It seems like there should be no problem for a Blaster to find a role on a team. Blasters shouldn't have any competition from Scrappers, since they will always be soloing and never on a team.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you want to play an AT with defensive capacity that does pretty darn good damage, roll a Scrapper. If you want to play an AT that can't take much damage but can dish out a truly sick amount of damage, roll a Blaster.
At least that's the distinction as I see it. Rather, the distinction as I feel it should be.
[/ QUOTE ]
the problem is that, the distinction isn't there.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly my point. The distinction isn't there... and it damn well should be.
[ QUOTE ]
if you're looking for a balance between scrappers and blasters, stop. there isn't one. I'm not saying scrappers need to be nerfed at all... far from it. i love scrappers. just comparing them is pretty weak.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bullhockery! Comparing them isn't weak. (BTW, I'm not calling for them to be nerfed either) Ideally, Tankers have better defensive capacity than Scrappers, but Scrappers have a better offensive capacity than Tankers. Scrappers have a better defensive capacity than Blaster, but Blasters have a better offensive capacity than Scrappers. How the hell is this setup not fair? Furthermore, how the hell is this not balance for that matter?
You trade defensive capacity for offensive capacity and vice versa. That's the deal. Risk vs. Reward. It's why a Defender's blast has 66% of the strength of a Blaster's blast. They sell off that other 34% for an increase to their defensive capacity. Okee-doke. Fair enough, but riddle me this; How the hell can trading nothing for gobs and gobs of everything even remotely approach the idea of fairness?
[ QUOTE ]
Why is ranged/control overpowered? We're talking about blasters being to controllers as controllers are to defenders.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ooh, ouch, I wouldn't go there
There's a whole platoon of folks in the Defender forum quite unhappy with the actual Stats on that whole situation.
Infact My own controllers have lead me to be rather disgusted with the situation as well as I was simply a "BuffBot with pets. No one wanted CrowdControl, they just wanted a Defender that summoned Mini-scrappers
...Odly enough here's a bunch of Blasters saying that they'd be Balanced if they got more Ranged Control. ...Well here's what ya do, dig around the low level areas and find one of the dozens of controllers Looking for a Team for the last hour and SK him up to help you "solo" your mission.
So I'm right. blasters are comedic relief. the [censored] Clowns of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is ranged/control overpowered? We're talking about blasters being to controllers as controllers are to defenders.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ooh, ouch, I wouldn't go there
There's a whole platoon of folks in the Defender forum quite unhappy with the actual Stats on that whole situation.
Infact My own controllers have lead me to be rather disgusted with the situation as well as I was simply a "BuffBot with pets. No one wanted CrowdControl, they just wanted a Defender that summoned Mini-scrappers
...Odly enough here's a bunch of Blasters saying that they'd be Balanced if they got more Ranged Control. ...Well here's what ya do, dig around the low level areas and find one of the dozens of controllers Looking for a Team for the last hour and SK him up to help you "solo" your mission.
[/ QUOTE ]
You know, thats so obvious it's brilliant! Controllers of our level can't be bother, but those 16s brawling for hour after hour in Steel Canyon would sure love a helpful friend. And they'll be a huge help.
Be a Blaster. Adopt a controller. Hell, maybe after you've helped him get to 32, he'll even let you still hang out with him.
I do not choose to ignore it. it's simply laughable.