Basically, if you just increase mob sizes, you're forcing the situation. Even with a blaster, there's still the question of how fast that AoE damage can be dealt. and as a matter of fact, even with the current lower numbers, we're dying.
The AoE problem is actually two-fold.
1) the aggro it generates seems exponential, or at least greatly increased to ALL mobs involved for EVERY mob involved [aggro resonance of some sort].
2) you need 2 or 3 AoE shots to take down a group, no matter how many are in there.
Current problem: Things will either get busted by the alpha-strike (say, yellow or lower), at which point it doesn't matter how many there are except for your xp bar.
OR, they DON'T die from the first two shots and thus get a second volley in, killing the blaster before the third [or fourth or fifth that would be required] shot. This is what we currently see when teaming with purple-hunter teams, and why we become useless.
Adding more enemies just increases the chance we'll die between the first and second shot, OR the XP.
It doesn't increase the effectiveness of the team to protect us... as a matter of fact the greater number of foes likely decreases their management, as there's more things that get missed by the hold, and there's more enemies, which increases the chance of them breaking-off.
30 enemies at 2/3 health turning to face your blaster, or 20 enemies at 2/3 health turning to face your blaster... there's not all that much of a difference (though it would quicken the whole herding process for those tankers.)
But you're right on the behavior bits... it WOULD be a hard-sell to the scrappers (due to ignorance of the increased boss/LT crit chances)... though it would ultimately help them [headsplitter crit won't help much on a minion that gets one-shotted anyways, but that's increased chance of critting the boss]...
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It doesn't increase the effectiveness of the team to protect us...
[/ QUOTE ] I tihnk the problem Nova is that the team isn't really focused on protecting the blaster in many cases...at lvl 30+..there is no incentive. I've been on teams which paid attention and the blasters survived and just mauled.
The question is can a team which is motivated be effective? I agree...this is more dangerous if you fight on Invinc...where the mobs are doing so much more damage you have less reaction time. But assuming most people play on Heroic....I'm optimistic that a team focused on aggro control and blaster preservation can handle spawns 50% bigger.
Again...the question is can a team really protect blaster? I think they can they just aren't motivated.
Of course, you can always just give blasters defense or more hitpoint and reduce the need for teams to work together.
Still, problem is that as far as our survival is concerned this falls to one of three specific things:
1)Aggro-specialised Tanker (the guy just using taunt once in a while won't cut it)
2) total lockdown (but at that point, what use are we? and more importantly, controllers once they get their pets... have their own damage-dealers... without the xp-loss.)
3) forcefields (.... sorta iffy, especially against purples).
Fact is, other than those three in particular, there's not really anything to 'defend' us. You don't NEED to take the aggro control three-steps further if you're not going to try to keep a blaster alive.
Can a team really protect a blaster? Sure; if they happen to be of rather specific AT's and builds.
Do they really have any reason to want to do so other than as an incidental side-effect of having powers that happen to help protect the blaster? ... not in the least.
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Still, problem is that as far as our survival is concerned this falls to one of three specific things:
1)Aggro-specialised Tanker (the guy just using taunt once in a while won't cut it)
2) total lockdown (but at that point, what use are we? and more importantly, controllers once they get their pets... have their own damage-dealers... without the xp-loss.)
3) forcefields (.... sorta iffy, especially against purples).
Fact is, other than those three in particular, there's not really anything to 'defend' us. You don't NEED to take the aggro control three-steps further if you're not going to try to keep a blaster alive.
Can a team really protect a blaster? Sure; if they happen to be of rather specific AT's and builds.
Do they really have any reason to want to do so other than as an incidental side-effect of having powers that happen to help protect the blaster? ... not in the least.
[/ QUOTE ]I have to disagree with all of this except the last sentence.
1) 1 Tankers can slot their attacks and auros with Taunt. This goes a long way towards holding aggro and making mobs rubberband. But back to the original problem..how many feel the desire to do this?
2) Total lockdown is not infinite...you eventually need to kill the minions. More importantly, a lot of control powers don't necessary completely lock down. Earthquakes is a fantastic power for providing blasters with the reduction in Mob DPS to allow blasters to do to work.
3) Let me open your eyes to the many wonderful powers that can help blasters - Mass Hyponisis, Black Hole, Fearsome Stare, Dark Pit, Tenebrous Tentacles, Darkest Night, Radiation Infection, Snow Storm, Freezing Rain, Ice Patch, Night Fall, Whirling Hands, Whirling Sword, Spin, Soul Drain, Sun Mire etc. etc etc.
One of the best ways to allow a blaster to use AoE's with little or no retribution, is to wait until the mobs get off their first attack....then the blaster AoE's (avoiding the counter alpha)..then a defender, controller, or scrapper, or tanker follows with an AoE or a Cone AoE that pulls off a lot of the aggro. This works like a champ.
The problem is that no one pays attention to when a blaster AoE's....and more improtantly, they dont' use their own AoE's as specific aggro control. You have no idea how underutilized these tactis are, and how effective than can be in keeping blasters safe. Throw in powers like Fortitude, Speed Boost, Inertial Density, Clear Mind, O2 Boost, and other status/defense/buff powers for individuals, and it's very easy to keep a blaster alive while he or she using AoE's.
But as we both agree...why bother? Last night my Dark/Dark
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3) Let me open your eyes to the many wonderful powers that can help blasters - Mass Hyponisis, Black Hole, Fearsome Stare, Dark Pit, Tenebrous Tentacles, Darkest Night, Radiation Infection, Snow Storm, Freezing Rain, Ice Patch, Night Fall, Whirling Hands, Whirling Sword, Spin, Soul Drain, Sun Mire etc. etc etc.
[/ QUOTE ]
You know... it'd kinda be nice if powers that helped blasters were.... you know.... availible to blasters. Yeah, that'd be awesome.
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You know... it'd kinda be nice if powers that helped blasters were.... you know.... availible to blasters. Yeah, that'd be awesome.
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According to quotes from states in an article that's published on the net, the original uber power combinations were:
Ranged damage + Self Defense
and
Range damage + Holds
and that those builds were 'too powerful' so they eliminated them by using the 'AT' system. Giving blasters reliable defense or lockdown powers would put them into one of the categories above - precisely the type of thing that the devs wanted to eliminate with the AT system in the first place.
That said, blasters have Lightning clap (PBAoE Stun), Ice Patch (PbAoE persistant knockdown drop), Frozen Aura (PBAoE Sleep), Auto-Turret (an aggro-drawing pet), Short Circuit (PBAoE endurance drain) and the rain powers (very limited AoE Fear + DoT).
bah.
that matters. statesman has range on the brain. he thinks it MEAN'S
something....
it dosent.
[ QUOTE ]
that matters. statesman has range on the brain. he thinks it MEAN'S
something.
[/ QUOTE ]
My current theory is that either that states et al completely underestimated the power of defenses, or that the confused AoE with Range. AFAICT those are the only plausible explanations that I can come up with for the current situation.
I'm still trying to come up with a theory that will explain Blazing Aura. Someday!
If they dont want us to have ranged damage and holds, then we could have ranged damage and Immobilizes. I don't mean the type that affects just 1 villian. I mean one that Immobilizes multiple villians at once and keep them that way even after an attack. That would allow us to keep range on our foes and actually use it and SEE if it (range) can be used as an effective defense (even though we all know it can't but it should become more apparent).
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I'm still trying to come up with a theory that will explain Blazing Aura. Someday!
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, there is just no excuse for it. None. Except maybe to combine it with Hotfeet and then chase the enemy around while you stay a millimeter out of melee range. Some how your not getting hurt during this time too. It might be usefull then. Oh, that would make you a tank.
Nope still not sure why a blaster would want to draw agro at melee range. Hotfeet at least has a fear effect.
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Secondly, I have no intention of removing melee attacks - it's just a "perception" by some Blasters that some of the Secondary Sets aren't as useful as Devices or Energy Manipulation.
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Yeah, I've always had this "perception" that getting into melee with anything on my Electric/Ice Blaster was essentially begging to die. I get enough Ranged attacks in my Primary that I can cycle damage forever. Why would I want to run in and try to slap someone, giving him the chance to gut me?
I wouldn't call it a "perception" ... No. Unless you've got some psychotic obsession with debt, building a "blapper" is pretty fruity.
I'd kill for */Ice to have more utility. If you yank all the melee attacks and PBAoE abilities, what do you have left? A self buff, an immobilize, and an Ice Patch? That's not a "Ranged" secondary.
Devices is ideal. Only ONE melee ability and it's a disorient attack. Everything else can be used at range, is a self buff, or is placed on the ground (melee-range optional).
Energy follows closely for the array of self-buffs, not melee damage (though I hear it's solid for that, too... But when a Chief Soldier kills you in one hit, do you really want to get that close to him?)
I'm glad to hear you have no plans to make Blasters in general more attractive to play as their designated role - Ranged damage.
/watches the steady decline of Blasters in groups
/goes back to trying to get his Fire/Ice tanker to level 50 so he can try a Kheldian.
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There are 2 conception problems with Blaster that I have found.
The first problem that I see is the Blaster as the Arch-Type is defined. A true Blaster is a force to behold. The Blaster is an energy jauggernaught no matter what that energy is the sheer force of the powers at this heroes command should be unparralleled. Engaging these kinds of heroes whether it be close up or far away should be a dangerous proposition because of the raw power at their command. However, where the Blaster really excells is in their ability to drop you at range. This is "in my opinion" of what a blaster should be.
The second problem as I see it is the misconception of power uniformity. Every powerset is not going to be equal. The concept that we should make all the powers the same and that will make everything fair is hogwash. Some powers are going to do more damage than others. That doesn't mean that the secondaries shouldn't be more just as effective. However, the problem I have with the secondaries is the lack of synergy and effectiveness.
Bingo..... A +2 tank swiper has you in his sites... you got no room to run and your blasts ain't gonna stop him... You reach into your bag of tricks and whip out your ultimate lv 38 secondary power....
Hot feet.
someone send flowers.
Everyone knows you have to use Blazing Aura on him. That'll make him think twice about...
uh...
well it won't stop him from hitting you... and I'm not sure he's even thought in the first place...
... um, "you're obviously a crappy player if you can't figure it out"? yeah that must be it. Its not that combustion and BA are useless, its that we don't know how to use them. Proper herding techniques would let us make use of our extreme defenses to...
..
waaait a second here...
[ QUOTE ]
Everyone knows you have to use Blazing Aura on him. That'll make him think twice about...
uh...
well it won't stop him from hitting you... and I'm not sure he's even thought in the first place...
... um, "you're obviously a crappy player if you can't figure it out"? yeah that must be it. Its not that combustion and BA are useless, its that we don't know how to use them. Proper herding techniques would let us make use of our extreme defenses to...
..
waaait a second here...
[/ QUOTE ]
FTD or flowers.com?
I've stopped playing melee quite as much and I've drifted back into the squishier side of CoH and I'm amazed at defenders that'll stack 3-4 clear minds on a tank but NONE on the blaster or two. Or they'll fort up the scrapper, but not the blaster. I was playing on a team with another empathy defender and they forted my defender before the blasters!
With my empath I generally pick one blaster who gets the AB>Fort>CM trinity. I hate watching defensive buffs wasted on AT's that don't benefit as much as the squishies do.
Proud member of the Cole-a-lition.
Fighting to make every reality, a better reality.
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[ QUOTE ]
that matters. statesman has range on the brain. he thinks it MEAN'S
something.
[/ QUOTE ]
My current theory is that either that states et al completely underestimated the power of defenses, or that the confused AoE with Range. AFAICT those are the only plausible explanations that I can come up with for the current situation.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or the testing environment in which range + defense and range + control were overpowered bears little resemblance to the game as it exists now.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Actually, considering what was wrong with that internal server, wouldn't it STILL have been showing us as weaker than the rest?
Offense stays effectively the same [# of hits/target stays the same, matter of fact it stays the same despite conning] and defense just simply jacked up for everyone versus higher mobs...
In other words, We'd still have been outranged, outgunned, etc compared to others...
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Actually, considering what was wrong with that internal server, wouldn't it STILL have been showing us as weaker than the rest?
Offense stays effectively the same [# of hits/target stays the same, matter of fact it stays the same despite conning] and defense just simply jacked up for everyone versus higher mobs...
In other words, We'd still have been outranged, outgunned, etc compared to others...
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I meant when they were testing the game in alpha. I strongly suspect that in a lot of ways, the current game simply does not resemble what they were testing way back in those ancient stone age days. The game as it exists now wouldn't break if you had range/control or range/defense the way it might have with less vicious villains way back when.
I didn't intend to refer to the broken test environment that recently came to light.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Ah. that one.
I guess back when things didn't outrange us by 120+ feet, we WERE pretty damn powerful... and if most didn't have ranged attacks at ALL, then with our damage might even have been outright broken should there've been something like caltrops to play with...
We all know how great a help getting that 2nd shot in BEFORE the return-alpha starts up is, over in the low levels... THAT is "range=defense".
Once they outrange us though... it either flies out the window, or we waste 4 range SO's on bringing it up to par, defenestrating our damage on the way....
So yeah, I agree with you... perhaps back then range/control or range/defense would've been broken, but right now, defense is king because of the way defense/resistance stacking work.
I'd suggest some low ranged defense or damage resistance... relatively cheap since we really DO need it... say 4 slots to cap at... 20% of one or the other?
That would give us some very decent breathing space, but far, FAR from overwhelming, which would eventually evolve the blaster into "moderate" defenses by the end of it once the APP's kick in.
25~40% barring any pool powers is nothing to laugh at [hey, its one or sometimes TWO extra hits from a boss], a single point of mez resistance would pretty much double our chances against such bosses (two-shots instead of one to disable us for that kill), Does NOT step on scrapper toes and the such [range simply ISN'T an advantage to that degree], and would further stack with whatever a team used on us to make us relatively survivable as long as there's a defender or controller in the group.
This would of course be taken as a power, or split into the existing toggles of the set (so as to total out to a similar amount), preferably just one or two powers though.
Combined with a slight reduction in AoE aggro (so we can fire off two area attacks before the *average* tanker loses them completely to us instead of just one), that would make us quite effective in teams.
I play my blaster exclusively in the arena. I'm eng/eng/eng.
Regardless of what the blaster's role is supposed to be, I always find myself using melee attacks to do real damage. The ranged attacks are sort of a joke when controllers get similar or better ranged damage after 40. I only have 3 attacks from my energy primary: energy bolt, blast, and nova. I seldom make any kills with the ranged attacks. They are mostly for killing someone with hurricane or someone who uses break free and tries to escape the dreaded energy punch, bone smasher, total focus combo.
I don't necessarily mind having super powered melee attacks, because they can get the job done and drop toggles almost every time. I'm more of a high powered toggle dropper than anything else in the arena.
Really, at higher levels blasters should be doing way, way more ranged damage. There is simply no compensation for lack of status protection and 4 or 5 seconds of hit points in the arena if someone decides to attack you. Granted, I'm force mastery so I can take a beating for longer than most, but I think my point still stands.
ok ok here we go, the official City of Heroes definition of a blaster:
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The Blaster is an offensive juggernaut, This hero can deal a ton of distance from a distance. But the Blaster must be careful, because he's somewhat fragile compared to other heroes. The Blaster can't stand toe to toe with most villains at melee rangefor long. His best defense is a great offense!
[/ QUOTE ]
Now here's where I get confused... as a fire energy blaster, my most powerful moves are Blaze Inferno and Bonesmasher, haven't gotten to total focus yet that's next level. my ranged moves are fire blast, fire ball, fire rain, and blazing bolt... so... TECHNICALLY since I have blazing bolt, and that +Aim/Build up is enough to take down most +2 minions in one shot I can deal a good amount of damage at a distance... but my best offensive moves all have ranges of 20 feet or less... Blaze included...
So by definition, dispite my powersets... I am not a blaster... I do not deal a "ton of damage at a distance"... my melee strength is pretty strong, and I've out melee'd scrappers in some cases so I CAN go toe to toe with opponents... and in my case, a good offense pulls me into melee range, so that is terrible for my defense... the only thing that descritption had right was that I'm squishy...
and there we see the problem, conceptually, blasters by their definition sound excellent... but that's not what we are... In practice we're out ranged out gunned, and under defended, sadly we CAN out punch melee types in many situations, but scrappers also have the higher dmg cap so when properly buffed we can't even do that...
I know tanks and trollers get our ranged move in their epic, do scrappers?
They get some and they get criticals on them too.
THEY GET CRITICALS ON THEIR RANGED ATTACKS?
:'( omg I'm going to go hang my blaster now...
he'll get less debt if he stays dead...
So... then what you're telling me SCRAPPERS can "deal a ton of dmg at range" cuz build up, fire blast (if they get it) then a critical...
Actually, it'd be sorta amusing if we critted in reverse to scrappers.
Vs. Minions we have our best chance for crits, vs. Bosses our worst.
But I have very little problem with -Res attacks. If we're being hit, we're dead either way. I expect we'll see new mobs with I5 that use Sonics to do just that in any case. I have no serious defenses, and for a Blaster, the real "defense" we have is offense. So defense-eroding attacks don't bother me much compared to what's happening now, and it DOES make a difference with Tanks/Scrappers, who aren't getting the same thrills and chills from opponents.