Wow... everyone's still at it. Good for you all. Let's see... what to add? What pressing bit of insight to pass along? Oh yeah! Concern, the avatar in question is Dawn of 'Cry for Dawn' fame. She's Joseph Michael Linsner's brainchild.
Actually, there WAS a very long thread in the Defender Forum a while ago that had tons of testimony on why most of them, myself included, prefer not to team with Blasters. If we needed AoE, it was much easier and Endurance-Efficient for us to get a BurnTanker or Spines/Rgn Scrapper, allowing us to take on tougher Mobs and avoid babysitting a Blaster who for all we know could be a total n00b since so many newer players "cut their teeth" on Blasters.
Eventually word got out to many Blasters that we had this thread going and it got real ugly when so many poor disillusioned Blasters suddenly realized that the AT's they thought were there just for their sake, hated playing with them because they were too Squishy and usually had to be Saved from Themselves.
Having a Team-Blapper myself, I know that's simply not the case, however the sheer amount of skill required to play a good Blaster who gives 100% in every fight at later game is simply not a realistic requirements for a build that is supposed to introduce newer players to the Wonders of CoH.
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Here's how you can tell blasters are generally useless. Try to think of a single team, a single situation, a single time in game where a team trying to decided between two potential teammates would say "No, lets not take the scrapper, let's take the blaster!"
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As a controller, my answer is: every time I form a team.
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I prefer to have blasters over scrappers on my team when I'm playing my tanker. With my scrapper, it literally doesn't matter to me - have one or the other, and we'll do fine.
But saying this (as true as it is) doesn't help, because people are convinced that no one wants blasters on their teams. It may very well be that there are [censored] idiots out there who are so mercenary in their team-building that they kick blasters for not having as much defense as scrappers.
This is not dissimilar to the tankers' claims that they had no place on teams before issue 3.
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I have seen many a broadcast asking for "Team needs a defender!" "Team looking for a tank!" "Task Force looking for a scrapper!"
I have NEVER seen a broadcast "Team needing a blaster!!!"
Now keep in mind I have been invited to many teams and I appreciate it. I in fact think I fill a role. However it doesnt seem as NEEDED because frankly what we add to a group is either not very noticeable or else can be covered with another AT that can fulfill another function as well.
I am just adding my two cents, ignore the complaining tone if ya can.
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Actually, there WAS a very long thread in the Defender Forum a while ago that had tons of testimony on why most of them, myself included, prefer not to team with Blasters. If we needed AoE, it was much easier and Endurance-Efficient for us to get a BurnTanker or Spines/Rgn Scrapper, allowing us to take on tougher Mobs and avoid babysitting a Blaster who for all we know could be a total n00b since so many newer players "cut their teeth" on Blasters.
Eventually word got out to many Blasters that we had this thread going and it got real ugly when so many poor disillusioned Blasters suddenly realized that the AT's they thought were there just for their sake, hated playing with them because they were too Squishy and usually had to be Saved from Themselves.
Having a Team-Blapper myself, I know that's simply not the case, however the sheer amount of skill required to play a good Blaster who gives 100% in every fight at later game is simply not a realistic requirements for a build that is supposed to introduce newer players to the Wonders of CoH.
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I read that thread (among others) and, wow, some of the attitudes expressed were pretty depressing.
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Secondly, I have no intention of removing melee attacks - it's just a "perception" by some Blasters that some of the Secondary Sets aren't as useful as Devices or Energy Manipulation. This is a rather frequent refrain in PM's (and the occasional forum post). This is something that we should also explore...we want all the Secondary sets to be fun.
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Well, good. Can you remove "Some" melee attacks then? As in, the weakest melee attacks in the respective sets? Frozen fists is useless. I don't care if you reply directly to me and say no it's not. You would be wrong. Frozen fists is not useful, no matter what, no matter how you slot it, period. It would be better served by any other power you could think of. Same thing for energy punch. Same thing for other powers of that tier. They need to be removed and replaced with something that will enhance our survivability.
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I read that thread (among others) and, wow, some of the attitudes expressed were pretty depressing.
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You know, I have noticed that other ATs are pretty quick on picking on blasters, namely tank or defender types. If there is a blaster in a group it seems everyone is under the impression that A.) Blasters are made of glass and B.) That at Mid to High levels Blasters still need N00B advice. I am not sure if either case is NOT true, but it is not uncommon for a blaster to be told 'Stand there and look pretty' by a Defender type that doesn't want to heal (at least not to 'waste' thier skill on us lowly blasters) or a tank type that doesn't want to pay too much attention to aggro.
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I have NEVER seen a broadcast "Team needing a blaster!!!"
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And the award for most off topic thread goes to.... Blaster Role!
This thread is about the role of the Blaster, not "OMG hepheastus is an azz clown."
States said our role was ranged damage, let's try and stick to that topic.
Now the way I see it in order to be "ranged damage" you must be, one ranged, and two damaging. As it stands there is very little incentive for a Blaster to stay at range because evidently by "Support" the Devs meant "More Damage Stuff" and alot of that stuff happens to have a melee range. The second thing is damage. Even though Blasters should be the primary damage dealers we are outclassed by Scrappers.
I have said it before and I will say it again, Blasters don't need thier secondary sets changed if, and this is a big if, they get some kind of range benefit (IE scaled defense buff) and, note and, more damage so that the Blaster is much more useful that the Scrapper in a team. If Blasters aren't way better than Scrappers in teams, Scrappers and Blasters will be interchangable on teams because the Scrapper requires very little support.
Actually what ticks me off are the people that are friggin condescending. I was recently playing with a blaster and two tanks in Faultline. Now this is with my Dark Defender. The tanks did not want to rush the Vahz mobs. OK. I can deal with that.
However after I got them debuffed, Feared (Takes two fears), and immobilized the blaster still would not come down to blast and instead just stayed as high as he could sniping. The tanks thought it was great because they did not have to worry about the stupid blaster. The blaster thought he was "ubar" because he never got hit.
Meanwhile, I am sitting in the middle of the Vahz staring straight up going "What are you waiting for? Hit the friggin AoE allready!"
May as well have been talking to the wind. Cowardly blasters. Make me sick. The best part was after putting on this show of brilliance he says "I don't get hit let me snipe the boss." Realize that he is hovering above us. Yeah, sniping the boss is a genius move when you drag the entire mob on the party.
Sigh, I have seen gung ho Blasters. I have seen cowardly blasters. Unfortunately it seems that the balanced blaster is very hard to find or maybe it is hard to play. I am not sure but I cringe inwardly whenever I invite a blaster because I never know what I am going to get.
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I have seen many a broadcast asking for "Team needs a defender!" "Team looking for a tank!" "Task Force looking for a scrapper!"
I have NEVER seen a broadcast "Team needing a blaster!!!"
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I have been on many team when someone says "We need more damage". Sometimes its even true.
You might not see it in broadcast becuase finding damage is not that hard.. there are plenty of scrappers and blasters out there, much more than defenders..
OK I have seen many pages of:
Personal attacks
Whining you are not scrappers
Comparison with other ATs
Suggestions to team with a Controller
And by Odins Hoary Balls hardly ANY discussion on what the blaster role is and how to help the blasters do it.
Grow up and use this space to give the Devs somewhere to look for helpful insight into gameplay.
I will provide my idea of a blasters role and how I do it during gameplay.
A Blasters Role
A blaster is there to quickly remove a threat to the team or solo to use tactics and the mechanics of the game to complete missions and street sweep if desired.
Point by Point explanation
A blaster is there to quickly remove a threat to the team - I use my control aspects to active status effects or use pure damage on to the enemy.
This is my role and to be MORE effective I could use a lessened aggro component to Fire damage. I have seen using only single target attacks at the same time as other blasters (Ice, Energy, Electric, AR) use their attacks and I am the only target that is attacked - Likely due to DoT attacks.
I would also like to see a Tanks taunt override ANY blaster attacks including Fire Rain/ Freezing Rain that draw aggro. So a tank or scrapper should be able to both keep me alive and keep them in the area affected or else why team?
or solo to use tactics and the mechanics of the game to complete missions and street sweep if desired. - I use Super Speed and Stealth to allow me to attack more safely. Also to finish MANY missions without having to defeat all but instead defeating guards and clicking glowies as required.
I use the mechanics of the game to hold a mob in a door to block access out, Turn a corner and fire / duck back to lessen aggro damage. I Joust Bosses and AV's as needed and use Burn, Ice Patch or similar attacks as a way to cover me from Status Efffects.
To aid me in this it would be HIGHLY useful if the maximum range of Status Effect and ranged Villain powers was 75% of a Blasters range. Then I could make safer use of my range and while not safe from all ranged attacks I could still escape if needed instead of being held and chopped to death by a rikti sword or have Rikti monkies dance on me.
I have seen and posted on broadcast this though.
Team needs damage dealer.
I'm a scrapper mostly but when fighting an AV or just trying to balance out a team it helps to have every AT. Blasters are a real benifit to a team if they are good players.
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I have seen many a broadcast asking for "Team needs a defender!" "Team looking for a tank!" "Task Force looking for a scrapper!"
I have NEVER seen a broadcast "Team needing a blaster!!!"
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That's because Blasters are easy to find at lower level and not that critical to have at higher levels (though they are pretty sweet).
However Tankers. . .apparently are still hard enough to find that I can log mine in and get an invite in very short order.
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I have seen many a broadcast asking for "Team needs a defender!"
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No you haven't. You may have seen, "Team looking for a healer", but that translates to "Controller/Defender who is Empathy primary".
Under construction
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I have seen many a broadcast asking for "Team needs a defender!" "Team looking for a tank!" "Task Force looking for a scrapper!"
I have NEVER seen a broadcast "Team needing a blaster!!!"
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I have been on many team when someone says "We need more damage". Sometimes its even true.
You might not see it in broadcast becuase finding damage is not that hard.. there are plenty of scrappers and blasters out there, much more than defenders..
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That is my point. You do not see the team asking for a blaster because the scrapper fills the same role, but yet adds tanking aspects to it as well. If our role is being able to single out mobs, then something needs to change, because the invironment right now is pro-herding and pro-holding.
Again do not get me wrong I have been asked to be in many groups and filled my role with zest. However to think that all ATs are treated equal is a falacy.
there is actually plenty of discussion of blaster roles inbetween all the other stuff.
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Blasters are listed as the damage kings yet their damage is capped BELOW that of scrappers. Why?
The max damage of a Blaster is 400%...a Scrapper is 500%. We did this because the Scrapper is involved in melee and thus in a riskier situation far more often. Blasters, on the other hand, can pick and choose their targets from a distance.
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I went away from the computer to check on some CoV stuff and *wham* I received 5 or so PM's asking "what is the Blaster's role?"
Answer - Ranged damage. Now, the issue is more specifically - what does a Blaster do that a Scrapper can't already do? Or, even worse, is a Scrapper inherently "stronger" than a Blaster. We want each Archetype to have a well defined role, and part of our Scrapper testing is aimed directly at this.
Secondly, I have no intention of removing melee attacks - it's just a "perception" by some Blasters that some of the Secondary Sets aren't as useful as Devices or Energy Manipulation. This is a rather frequent refrain in PM's (and the occasional forum post). This is something that we should also explore...we want all the Secondary sets to be fun.
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It appears to me that you are solving a single Scrapper "problem" with three solutions.
The Problem: Melee is a riskier situation than ranged combat.
Blasters have the luxury of avoiding melee, theoretically. Though you admit that you still want them to have (and presumably USE) melee powers.
Scrappers have:
A. Stronger defenses than blasters... By a long shot.
B. Critical strikes that produce +10% increased damage output over time. (I can't find the actual chance of criticals, but if a critical happens on 10% of strikes, then it acts as +10% damage.)
C. 500% damage cap allows 20% more damage over time (compared to blasters' 400% cap). If you combine B and C, realize that a Critical strike benefits from this increased damage cap as well, meaning that on a critical blow the scrapper delivers up to 1000% of his base damage, while a blaster never does more than 400%.
I think everyone agrees that (A) is necessary for Scrappers to be at all playable. (B) is a cool edge that helps Scrapper melee win out over any other melee archetype.
But (C) seems to me to be a redundant solution. It accomplishes the same basic notion as (B), except that it is a clearly crueller smack in the face to blasters.
If your reasons for increased damage cap is the risk of melee, then I think you should give the bonus to blaster melee: If a blaster does get into melee, his risk is significantly higher than a scrapper's risk.
If you just want scrappers to have more melee damage, just increase the chance of criticals. If you need a damage cap at all, then cap it the same for everyone. Most won't even be able to come close to Scrapper/Blaster in total damage, and particularly in per-power damage.
After all: Defender attacks are (iirc) 75% damage compared to the equivalent Blaster attack. This means that a Defender who can slot up to the cap will still be 75% of a Blaster who does the same. An equal % cap across the board should do the trick.
In summary: Give everyone the same PERCENT damage cap, let the archetype powers and damage ratios handle the difference, and adjust the Scrapper critical hit chance to tune the "melee risk/reward factor" for Scrappers.
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After all: Defender attacks are (iirc) 75% damage compared to the equivalent Blaster attack. This means that a Defender who can slot up to the cap will still be 75% of a Blaster who does the same. An equal % cap across the board should do the trick.
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66%, and some have ways to bypass the cap.
Under construction
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If Blasters aren't way better than Scrappers in teams, Scrappers and Blasters will be interchangable on teams because the Scrapper requires very little support.
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I've been arguing this case too. However if Range was changed to effect Accuracy, several things would happen: 1>Defenders could become Ranged-Tanks. 2>Blasters would miss Constantly and then Scrappers and Blaappers would Still totally outclass Ranged blasters in DPS. 3> RiktiDrones would eventually drive everyone insane. 
So if Range effected defense/accuracy calculations, Blasts would need a MASSIVE accuracy boost that all Defenders except for Psionic and Rad would get.... and Psionic sucks bad enough in comparison as it is!
See it's one of those things that seems like a small tweak, but sets off a whole sucktacular domino effect that would eventually require another Free-Respec and gaw knows what else.
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I went away from the computer to check on some CoV stuff and *wham* I received 5 or so PM's asking "what is the Blaster's role?"
Answer - Ranged damage.
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Thanks for the definition. Very much appreciated. However, if our role is ranged damage, why so much melee in the secondaries? Currently, the only Blaster secondary I will play is Devices because of the sheer amount of melee in other sets.
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I look at my level 50 Energy/Energy Blaster and I see that I've taken FOUR powers from his Secondaries. And the only reason I took Power Thrust is because I was forced to do so. Lots of Blasters like the melee powers, specifically because of the massive damage output. They also have a line of credit at every city hospital. For my playstyle, a melee power is one of last resort. It's the big boom you dispense right before you engage that credit line.
My Ice Blaster has holds instead of melee, which seems more suited to the "Blaster = range = life" ideal. Unfortunately, he's also saddled with worthless powers like Chilling Embrace and Shiver, only effective in melee range and Endurance drains. Necessitating Stamina. The real problem with "Blaster = range" is that half the maps aren't conducive to ranged attacks. And even those that are don't favor the Blaster because villains have greater range. One mez pretty much equals death. The only place you can safely hunt with risk on par with Scrappers and Tankers is outside. Once I got Boost Range + Hasten, I could double-buff BR, enhancing my Snipe's range and slowly whittle a boss down without aggroing him.
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Now, the issue is more specifically - what does a Blaster do that a Scrapper can't already do?
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Currently nothing.
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Pretty much. Snipe is about the only thing that comes to mind. Even the weakest of my Scrappers has a survival rate far exceeding the most powerful of my Blasters. Just the fact that my Scrappers can retreat to rest makes a huge difference.
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Or, even worse, is a Scrapper inherently "stronger" than a Blaster.
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In the game's current form - yes. Having Blaster damage with incredible defense makes them stronger IMO.
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Most of the times my Blasters have gone to the hospital is because the mez lasted just long enough for the bad guys to get in an extra hit. The appearance of Break Frees were a Devsend, but you don't always have those. I think a relatively simple yet helpful change would be to just give Blasters a slightly faster healing rate. Just a little tiny boost, just enough to avoid those deaths by holds.
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We want each Archetype to have a well defined role, and part of our Scrapper testing is aimed directly at this.
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I can tell you from experience that the Blaster's role of ranged damage is currently broken. There's nothing that we can do that another AT can't do safer than we can - that's just wrong.
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Pretty much the only defense Blasters have is a good offense. (Isn't that in the manual? It's been over a year since I read it.) But a teensy bit of help in the defense department wouldn't hurt.
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Secondly, I have no intention of removing melee attacks - it's just a "perception" by some Blasters that some of the Secondary Sets aren't as useful as Devices or Energy Manipulation. This is a rather frequent refrain in PM's (and the occasional forum post). This is something that we should also explore...we want all the Secondary sets to be fun.
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Personally, most of the fun is gone when I have to venture into melee range. For someone to even make good use of these melee powers, they have to take the Fighting pool. No player should have to use power pools to preform their ATs role.
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Yep, that was the same problems Tanks used to have, and the solution of Punchvoke -- while not to everyone's liking -- actually solved that particular problem. (I love Punchvoke.)
I made a melee Blaster just for the fun of it, and he is a hoot to play because of the enormous risk, but he folds like wet paper and spends half his time in the hospital. Consequently he's only level 6 or something. I can imagine once I've been able to max out his defenses and slot up his melee powers he'll be quite the little terror, but getting there will be a Sisyphean task.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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I went away from the computer to check on some CoV stuff and *wham* I received 5 or so PM's asking "what is the Blaster's role?"
Answer - Ranged damage. Now, the issue is more specifically - what does a Blaster do that a Scrapper can't already do? Or, even worse, is a Scrapper inherently "stronger" than a Blaster. We want each Archetype to have a well defined role, and part of our Scrapper testing is aimed directly at this.
Secondly, I have no intention of removing melee attacks - it's just a "perception" by some Blasters that some of the Secondary Sets aren't as useful as Devices or Energy Manipulation. This is a rather frequent refrain in PM's (and the occasional forum post). This is something that we should also explore...we want all the Secondary sets to be fun.
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I agree with keeping some form of melee attacks for Blasters. They can be fun in the right situations. I also like the statement that a Blaster's main role is ranged attacks. Where I see the imbalance is a secondary with 3 or 4 melee attacks (on arguably the weakest character in the game defensively) or pb aoe's if the stated purpose of the character is ranged damage. Still, I have lots of fun with my blaster and still play him on a regular basis. Thanks to the devs for constantly listening, even to the rants.
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I have seen many a broadcast asking for "Team needs a defender!"
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No you haven't. You may have seen, "Team looking for a healer", but that translates to "Controller/Defender who is Empathy primary".
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Listen to Erratic about this one. Or better yet go look in the Defender Forum. Search Key Words: "r u healer?" It suprised me too, but a lot of Defenders are recruited for a team zones-apart and then kicked off a team as soon as they make the trek to the zone the team lead is in and the Lead finds out their Primary, especially Team leads who are blasters or building the team for their Blaster friend.
REDICULOUS...how hard is it to righclick a Defender's name in the 'Find' box and pick the "chat" option and ask them "What's your Primary?" first before inviting them and then crucifying them for not taking Empath?
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I have seen many a broadcast asking for "Team needs a defender!"
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No you haven't. You may have seen, "Team looking for a healer", but that translates to "Controller/Defender who is Empathy primary".
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Listen to Erratic about this one. Or better yet go look in the Defender Forum. Search Key Words: "r u healer?" It suprised me too, but a lot of Defenders are recruited for a team zones-apart and then kicked off a team as soon as they make the trek to the zone the team lead is in and the Lead finds out their Primary, especially Team leads who are blasters or building the team for their Blaster friend.
REDICULOUS...how hard is it to righclick a Defender's name in the 'Find' box and pick the "chat" option and ask them "What's your Primary?" first before inviting them and then crucifying them for not taking Empath?
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But then, such players are fools. Empathy is nice, but most other sets can defend a blaster just as well, sometimes better. I personally like Kinetic's types, though any defender is welcome.
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I have seen many a broadcast asking for "Team needs a defender!"
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No you haven't. You may have seen, "Team looking for a healer", but that translates to "Controller/Defender who is Empathy primary".
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Listen to Erratic about this one. Or better yet go look in the Defender Forum. Search Key Words: "r u healer?" It suprised me too, but a lot of Defenders are recruited for a team zones-apart and then kicked off a team as soon as they make the trek to the zone the team lead is in and the Lead finds out their Primary, especially Team leads who are blasters or building the team for their Blaster friend.
REDICULOUS...how hard is it to righclick a Defender's name in the 'Find' box and pick the "chat" option and ask them "What's your Primary?" first before inviting them and then crucifying them for not taking Empath?
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But then, such players are fools. Empathy is nice, but most other sets can defend a blaster just as well, sometimes better. I personally like Kinetic's types, though any defender is welcome.
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Agreed, I prefer to have a defender with preemptive, proactive powers than a one where powers are activated on a reaction basis. A bubble is easier and safer to implement than waiting and hoping a defender will notice you're in the red and single target heal you. There's more of a chance for that heal to come too late than there is a chance that an attack slips through that bubble.
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No you haven't. You may have seen, "Team looking for a healer", but that translates to "Controller/Defender who is Empathy primary".
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I saw a broadcast that asked for a defender. It wasn't until after I joined that they asked if I was a healer. I mean get it straight people are so much more open these days to who they invite. They just throw back what they don't want.
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Wasn't meant as a counter to the "lack of teaming opportunity for blasters" point. Just a reminder that it's not AS bleak as painted in his initial post.
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Yeah, I was agreeing with you and saying mean things about people who build teams on a purely mercenary basis. It doesn't mean that I think there isn't a problem that needs to be addressed, though.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)