Wait. I thought it was just 17% less than Invincible, which gets somewhat made up for by Icicles, which doesn't do Burn damage, but isn't useless, and the aggro of CE. I don't know whether it is totally made up for by this, concensus seems now that it doesn't. I'd assume that it is better at defense than Fire, but worse, because of less damage. Also CE might have a small range, but you could help teammates some also, as it slows AoE attacks and heals of the foes some too.
All in all this seems like to make the cap the same as the Invicible one, would be a much better change. Does anyone agree?
Okay since this is now an "Official Thread" I thought I'd repost this info here. It shows how much additional health would be needed to compensate if we were not to get a fix through Resistance or Healing:
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You can rule out Hoarfrost from the equation healthwise because Invuln has access to Dull Pain, and other than the Toxic Resist on Hoarfrost, they are the same power. Both have access to the Fitness and Medicine pools, so again these can be ruled out.
Okay because of the 44% discrepency, that means that for every 100 damage an Ice Tanker takes an Invuln Tanker has taken only taken 56 damage. The Ice Tanker is taking 178% of the damage that an Invuln Tanker is taking.
This means that an Ice Tanker would require 178% of the Health of an Invuln Tanker to be able to take the same amount of damage over time. Let me put this into some simple numbers:
If an Invuln Tanker has 1000 health, an Ice Tanker would need 1780 health to be able to take the same amount of damage. If the Invuln Tanker has 2000 health, an Ice Tanker needs 3560.
Its just that simple to figure out. Ice Tankers need an excessively higher health to compensate without resistances.
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Wait. I thought it was just 17% less than Invincible,
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No its 44%. 17% was if a Boss hit with 85% accuracy. But since an even level Boss hits for 75% accuracy then 17% is no longer right, and it jumps to 44%.
Meaning Ice Tanks take 178% of the damage an Invul Tank does. And they have no way to recover from that. So as nice as the other things are, they're not compensatory enough to make up that difference -- also note Chilling Embrace is already factored into the 44%. So the only things left out are Icicles which doesn't kill stuff fast enough, and possibly the now neutered End Drain on Energy Absorbtion (it no longer hits everything).
Since we're looking for alternatives to adding Resistance to an Ice Tanker, and egarding that Ice would need 178% the health of an Invuln Tanker to compensate. A modification could be made to Hoarfrost to do this (now you have to take both Hoarfrost and Dull Pain into account).
What I'm saying is this. Take the 1000 health example above.
Hoarfrost and Dull Pain both raise that to 1400 health.
But in order to compensate for the needed extra health if Hoarfrost gave an additional
1400 * 1.78 = 2492 health needed.
So to compensate if Dull Pain were left at a +40% health increase, to compesate, Hoarfrosts increase would need to be +149.2%
1000 * (1 + 1.492) = 2492
1000 * (1 + 0.4) = 1400
2492 / 1400 = 1.78
Just wanted to work out for everyone how Hoarfrost would need to be modified to handle this discrepency.
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The power is still quite massive, and probably still too powerful.
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Obviously, Geko is working on a career in stand-up comedy.
Either that, or the devs are clueless about how bad ice armor is compared to the other tanker sets. And we all know that can't be true, can it?
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I think that we all know just how rare Ice Tanks are. It's more than likely that none of the devs have actually played one so it stands to reason that they know nothing about how they actually stand up beside other tanks.
Circ, I dont' completely agree with your reasoning.
The thing is, when you uplevel just slightly (1-2 levels), CE becomes less effective but it does become significantly harder for invul to floor accuracy. Of course they hit harder, but this isn't balanced perfectly, either.
Of course, my math might be off, since it is just approximations, but since no tanker worth thier salt sticks to tanking whites, it's probably a better idea to compare how Ice/Stone/invul work with +2/+3s.
Not saying that Ice doesn't need a buff- boy could it use one in response to the new mod to EA- but I think stepping up to 178% hp boost is just too high, it fails to take into account increased healing and the like. Perhaps hoarfrost being moved up to a 60% buff with a +regeneration tag attached to it?
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Circ, I dont' completely agree with your reasoning.
The thing is, when you uplevel just slightly (1-2 levels), CE becomes less effective but it does become significantly harder for invul to floor accuracy. Of course they hit harder, but this isn't balanced perfectly, either.
Of course, my math might be off, since it is just approximations, but since no tanker worth thier salt sticks to tanking whites, it's probably a better idea to compare how Ice/Stone/invul work with +2/+3s.
Not saying that Ice doesn't need a buff- boy could it use one in response to the new mod to EA- but I think stepping up to 178% hp boost is just too high, it fails to take into account increased healing and the like. Perhaps hoarfrost being moved up to a 60% buff with a +regeneration tag attached to it?
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Ice has no increased healing compared to Invuln. that's the point.
You think it sounds like an extreme buff? Yeah... but that's where invuln is now.
So now you know how much better other tankers have it.
Now that this is an official thread in the training room section, should we refocus on the proposed changes to EA in I4?
Does EA still draw agro from all enemies in range even though it only get def from 5?
EA does not drain end from enemies that it does not get def from. Is this intended, or will is it a bug to be fixed?
If EA will only be draining end from up to five enemies in melee reange, I would rather see this aspect of the power removed entirely while reducing the end cost/recharge time or increasing the duration.
Crenson, I'm going completely by the point of balancing that geko provided us here. If that's how he's balancing Energy Absorbtion, which is without argument the key power in Ice Armor, then he has to look at the whole of not only how that affects the powerset, but where the powerset is today in comparison with other powersets, and where the change puts it.
Yes, as levels between a character and an opposing mob become more disparate the effects of Defense and Chilling Embrace do fall off. However, the effects of Resistance do not.
That means though that an Invuln Tanker will approach the effectiveness of a pure Resistance Tanker with maxed resistances (say a Fire Tanker that has also taken Tough).
However since Defense and Chilling Embrace are the only legs an Ice Tanker has to stand on, the Ice Tanker approaches the effectiveness of a Blaster/Defender/Controller Defensively. And even then a level 44+ Blaster/Defender/Controller will now have more Resistance than an Ice Tanker actually potentially putting them in a better position then the Ice Tanker.
So yes, the effectiveness of both will get worse, but Invuln will taper out, Ice will keep getting worse.
Thanks for posting that hypothetical Hoarfrost balancing, Circeus.
What if, rather than Hoarfrost, Chilling Embrace could be modified with the same goal in mind? How high would the base percentage of attack rate-slowing have to be to get us into the right range?
Alternately, based on what we know of the mechanics behind CE and SO's, what if there were an attack rate reduction enhancement? Given current base reduction of CE, how close could CE enhancement get us to a balanced set of numbers?
This is all about Energy Absorbtion. My calculations are all entirely based on the change on test. Notice how I limited the mob calculation to being 5 mobs. Also like I said to Crenson we can't look at the single power, we have to look at how the powerset itself functions with respect to that power.
And the answer is Invuln is 44% better.
Sorry, my mistake- I wasn't clear.
I'm agreeing that invul is around 44% better -on even cons-. It just strikes me that that % drops -some- when you step up about 2 levels. Hardly to 0, but still. ANd of course talking about high level differentials, EA is now going to be effectively useless against heaivly outleveled foes, while Resistance is going to be perfectly functional.
It can be argued that a 6 slotted Hibernate will even this gap. As a longtime supporter of Hibernate, who adores this power, this is simply wrong. Hibernate is great, but situational- and it won't close the effective tank gap by very much, even when used perfectly.
My thought was that since I don't think that 44% is constant, but changes a tad, a flat out boost based upon it solely might not be fair. And I have no desire to be 'teh uber' tanker- I'd just like not to be a liability when compared to every other tank (this, I'd like to see someone argue against).
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Geko, one question though.
Why does a heavy resist set (doesn't it cap out at what? 90?) like invul get a defense/accuracy boost with no real negatives, while an ice tanker has virtually no resists to speak of and is essentially no better than a SR scrapper in capibility?
And no matter how many times you stack EA, you could stack it 1000 times over and over again, there will always be a 5 percent chance to be hit, meaning we're no better than a well slotted SR scrapper with some gimmicky auras.
Stone is a nice mix of RES and Defense, and it's not game breaking, so why can't ice be similar or at least resist more status effects and toxic damage to make up for the gapeing holes in the set? (As of now, I can't think of any tanker set that resists or defends against toxic)
I think we deserve a slight bit of resist so we're not just a "oh we couldn't find an invul, stone tank, or fire tank, so you'll do" alternative.
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no real negatives? the ranged defenses in invincibility was GUTTED. There's little left there. Don't get me wrong. I think Ice tanks need work... I know what it's like to have a sub par power set and get ignored when you point it out. And I definitely DO NOT support this nerf. I don't support any nerf.... when does it end?
I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that Hibernate is a cool power and situational. Hibernate however offers nothing to the main purpose of the AT, which is to be a tank for other other players. Not to sit there invulnerable while your fellow heroes faceplant all around you.
Even despite the Ice Tank subpar rating compared to other Primaries, I've had a blast playing mine. But now,... well, the numbers speak for themselves. Ice is in need of a buff, not a substantial cut; especially for those ice tanks that haven't taken hasten.
Circeus, thank you for all the work and info.
Daristar
on Virtue:
Darkennedy dark/sonic Def
Lena Slayer NightWidow
Vengeful Woman Energy/Rad Corruptor
Hella Effing Cool cold/sonic def
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no real negatives? the ranged defenses in invincibility was GUTTED. There's little left there. Don't get me wrong. I think Ice tanks need work... I know what it's like to have a sub par power set and get ignored when you point it out. And I definitely DO NOT support this nerf. I don't support any nerf.... when does it end?
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Err, I think you misunderstood. Unstoppable has a negative. Granite has a negative. Invince does -not- have a negative, though it is lowered from what it was before.
I belive that the poster you quoted was refering to direct power balance/detractors, rather than unnerfed items.
Ive read this thread and despite some of the arguments i still look at all this a bit differently. I dont actually care how i compare to an INV tank. I care only about the reason for, and effect of this possible change.
I would like to know what was the cause for the idea of this change? What was EA allowing that needs to be changed? Ice tanks werent herding better than the other sets because of it. All i know is on a mission i had with a huge room full of +2 nemesis the floored 5% ACC was still making me eat respites and Hoarfrost already, toss in a couple vengeance and i barely survived. With this change ill now die instantly in that very real non herd situation.
Once again please dont change EA at all.
Only way i could stomach a change is if it also returned some END (it fits with the flavor/name of the power anyway and would help poor end hog ice) so that 2 drained foes made it in effect free to use and 3+ was a gain to make up for now having to slot to stack it.
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Ive read this thread and despite some of the arguments i still look at all this a bit differently. I dont actually care how i compare to an INV tank. I care only about the reason for, and effect of this possible change.
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Personally I don't care about Inv/* either... Nor do I think anyone here cares about them, or Fire/*, or Stone/* tankers.
I'm sure that the reason why we mention Inv/* so much, and compare Ice against that set (At least my reason) is because Inv/* are the best tankers right now; so if EA wasn't making us superior to Inv/* tankers, or giving us any advantage over Inv/*... Why do they feel the need to cap how much defense we can get out of it?
Actually the gap widens as the level gap increases. The amount of damage an Ice Tanker takes grows ot DMG * 95% (DEF down to 5% floor). Where as an Invuln Tankers the amount of damage is DMG * 95% - (DMG * 95% * 90%) (with the 90% damage cap). But that is pure theory. You should probably focus on a 6 (or better, 5) level difference as the outside boundary condition.
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Actually the gap widens as the level gap increases. The amount of damage an Ice Tanker takes grows ot DMG * 95% (DEF down to 5% floor). Where as an Invuln Tankers the amount of damage is DMG * 95% - (DMG * 95% * 90%) (with the 90% damage cap). But that is pure theory. You should probably focus on a 6 (or better, 5) level difference as the outside boundary condition.
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I don't think you're quite right. SImply because an Ice can reliably floor acc without +acc or -def powers, using 6 slotted powers, and invul cannot -always- floor foe's accs on +2 bosses or so.
I haven't found a 'good' source that gives the acc increases per level, so I don't have the math on hand, but I think that it fluxuates -just- enough to make it ~35% between ice and invul at the 'peak', probably.
Not that this is exactly justification for EA being made weaker or anything...
Also, rememember that there's stuff in the game that auto-hits (or close enogh) like the DE swarms, the giant eyes in the Shadow Shard, the Envoy of Shadows' (who you have to fight, like, five times through the arc) death aura, ect.
There is nothing in the game that ignores resistences.
Additonally, some stuff, like say a Rikti drone has big +ACC modifiers that essentially smack ice. There is nothing in the game that ignores a certain percentage of resists (except blasters in PvP now), which would amount to the same thing for a invuln tanker.
Lastly, Ice relies on having tons of mobs to get def from constantly. That means in one on one AV fights, they eat the ground a lot, with no way to get their defense even *close* to the cap agianst a mob that has a huge acc boost (and you can't even cap yoru def against even con white *minions* with only one opponent facing you down).
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There is nothing in the game that ignores resistences.
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Hami and Dark's do right now! 
Still here, even after all this time!
I stand corrected. But let's be honest, that's not a really big pool of badguys. 
Seems like Ice has the defense thing down okay with the changes (even the EA change) proposed. What you guys are saying all has a common theme, though.
"What's to save ice if it does get hit."
Quick solution I'd URGE the devs to seriously think about and we've brought up MANY times:
Give Permafrost the equivalent Damage Resistance to Smashing/Lethal that Stone Skin and Resist Physical Damage has.
If there's one stubborn dev who's been holding this change back, hold his head in the toilet til he agrees. Sheesh.
I honestly can't believe they haven't made that fix sooner. It's totally blatantly obvious as the easiest and best choice. This'd go a LONG way to taking this set out of the doghouse.
No tanker set should have to rely solely on defense. It's in our job description to take hits, meaning we WILL get hit. Ice Armor as is has a glass jaw. Which it shouldn't. A two hundred pound block of ice won't even shatter if you shoot it. Sure, stuff'd chip it, but ice tankers can reform new ice at will. In a sense, that would give them DAMAGE RESISTANCE!!
Tweaking how their +def armor works will never bring Ice Tankers into line.
Because that's not what's the problem with them.
A totally +def tanker will never EVER be as good as a resistance tanker. Resistance tankers can max defense with Pools. Ice gets what, +33% smashing and lethal from Tough? EVER?
"I'm flying free with my beautiful butterfly wings!" ~ Randy Marsh
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The power is still quite massive, and probably still too powerful.
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Obviously, Geko is working on a career in stand-up comedy.
Either that, or the devs are clueless about how bad ice armor is compared to the other tanker sets. And we all know that can't be true, can it?