From BuffyASummer's research:
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Tough (Fighting pool) is 20% resistance to smashing and lethal (15% for Scrappers) and each SO DamRes enhancer provides 4% more (3% for Scrappers).
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20% + (6 * 4%)=44% resistance to S/L damage.
The problem here is two-fold:
[*]It's a toggle, unlike RPD and Stone Skin; so, like Firey Aura tankers, we can lose this if we get stunned. It also means it requires Endurance to maintain it; thus, running it with 6 damage resistance SOs would only add a further endurance burden to an already toggle- and endurance-management heavy set.
[*]It's the third choice out of a power pool set. So, not only does it require sacrificing at least 2 slots to get, but it's a selection any AT can pick up; in the end, this still puts Ice Tankers behind the other armor sets, since any AT (including other Tankers) can get it as well. This isn't to say that many will, so this last point is not so much an issue.
Still, in the end, it's the same problem that Ice Tankers have been trying to get addressed for as long as I can recall; we can't adequately do the jobs of the other Tanker primaries. We can't tank any AV or monster without heavy assistance or by sacrificing skills and slots by dipping into the power pool. Add this to the fact (and yes, I have checked) that there are many more ways to get defense (as buffs, as inspirations) then resistance, and what you end up with is that Ice Tankers need some help.
The solution is easy, and has been suggested by many Ice Tankers, many many times: S/L resistance in Permafrost.
Easy to code. Easy to monitor.
Making the least-used and most unappreciated Tanker Set even worse by nuking our best skill only puts us further in the doghouse. 
EDIT: That's the last time I try to do math in my head while juggling a phone call from an irate department leader... 
[ QUOTE ][*]It's a toggle, unlike RPD and Stone Skin; so, like Firey Aura tankers, we can lose this if we get stunned. It also means it requires Endurance to maintain it; thus, running it with 6 damage resistance SOs would only add a further endurance burden to an already toggle- and endurance-management heavy set.
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Actually I have a build on test that on my Ice/Stone ditches Hasten and drops in Kick/Tough (pushing off Hibernate), and I actually had a worse time endurance-wise than I did with Hasten.
Now you'd think dropping Hasten would help even if you are picking up a Toggle and another attack, but nope. And I had only DamRes in it it. I haven't had a chance to try out an End slot in it, but I plan to. Though based on what I was seeing, I don't expect it to help tons.
Just 2 things I'd like to point out here:
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No tanker set should have to rely solely on defense. A totally +def tanker will never EVER be as good as a resistance tanker.
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A totally +def tanker will never EVER be as good as a resistance tanker.
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That's not totally true. If we were able to lower mobs' chances to hit us to a 5% we could stand right next to any other tanker. Sure we could get one-shotted by an AV or get hit by too many mobs at the same time, but then again that happens to any tanker. The problem is that many mobs (Specially after lvl 35-ish) have auto-hits, very high accuracy, ways to increase their accuracy, ways to lower your defense, or we just don't have defense agianst their atacks.
All that makes relying only on accuracy anything but imposible.
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Resistance tankers can max defense with Pools. Ice gets what, +33% smashing and lethal from Tough? EVER?
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Agree that anyone can increase their defense by a lot by using pool powers, inspirations and other heroes powers; and that we can only get Res from a single power from a power pool, and a few power from other AT's...
The part I don't agree is the whole "max defense". There is no such thing as "max defense" since there is not cap to how much accuracy a mob (or heroe) can have (And I'm not even talking about auto-hit powers); and I think that's what Geko (Or whoever came up with this "EA is too powerful" idea) don't understand.
I was doing some testing tonight on the Live Servers. I went and found 10-15 Devouring Earth that where even level and -1 to me. I got them all to atack me and hit EA. That was between 150-250% def with EA plus my armors.
They droped a couple of "quartz" and although I was getting some damage (From the swarms and the ocational hits), I could have stand there all day (Remember the part about them being evel level to me, any tanker should be able to do that).
After a while I waited until EA was about to drop and poped 4 lucks. Each luck is 25% to all, that means 100% def increase to all plus my armors (A little more than what EA is going to provide once I4 hits live) Once again there were 2 quartz next to me... Those same mobs droped me death in less then 1 minute (Even after poping hoarfrost to recover some hit points)
I should also mention that I was running tough 5 slotted with +Res the whole time.
To add to LeMoiCavalier's point: he was nice enough to let me watch him doing this with my dark defender.
I COULD NOT get heals off fast enough to keep him from dying.
This is my first post on the forums, so I'll take it a little slow to start. I've read this entire thread, and found it very enlightening. I have reached 34 with my ice armor/energy melee tanker APLE Unit T02, and although I know that I'm not as tough as my invulnerability/super strength friend (Whom I trained in the ways of tanking, since it was his first character) I haven't been having too many problems. Only about half a dozen times has my team taken casualties because I couldn't last against the enemies. I was even sidekicking with some 49s and 50s the other day, who commented that I was one of the best ice tanks they had ever seen, and I managed to tank Neuron without incident.
My build so far is simple: I have taken every single ice armor power, and I have every armor 6 slotted with 1 endurance and 5 defense (with the exception of permafrost, which is 5 slotted with resistance). I have Chilling Embrace 6 slotted also, with 1 endurance and 5 slow (Do these enhancements actually improve the -recharge effect, or just the slow movement effect? Slowing movement is, in my opinion, not worth the slots, so I would like to know.) Lastly I have icicles with 1 endurance, 1 accuracy, and 1 damage and right now energy absorption has 2 slots, an endurance and a recharge, if I remember right. The only optional attack I have taken is Whirling Hands, and I have it 3 slotted at the moment, and I have taunt and the fitness pool.
So, I've really put a great deal of effort into being strong in defense, but what I'm hearing from you number-crunchers is starting to frighten me. I am so weak? I knew I was worse off than other tankers, but I didn't realize the margin was so embaressing. Now, for the big question: What do I do about it? I'm taking this character to 50 if it kills me, so what do I do?
I'm thinking that I may try taking the fear powers in the presence pool, I can see a use for provoke as a stepping stone power and I know from my dark defender that fear can be a very powerful tool, I think it may be enough to tip the balance in my favor IF the powers are effective. Do any you guys have any thoughts on that? I'd love to hear your opinions.
So, if you have time, please throw me a bone in regards to the presence pool powers and to the effect of enhancements in chilling embrace. Thanks!
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So, if you have time, please throw me a bone in regards to the presence pool powers and to the effect of enhancements in chilling embrace. Thanks!
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I haven't tried using the Presence pool powers, so I can't help you there. I can answer the other question, though. Slow enhancements _only_ affect movement speed. You cannot enhance Chilling Embrace to further slow down an enemy's recharge rate.
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I was doing some testing tonight on the Live Servers. I went and found 10-15 Devouring Earth that where even level and -1 to me. I got them all to atack me and hit EA. That was between 150-250% def with EA plus my armors.
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Just a note that geko provided us with a number of 18.75% per mob. So 10-15 mobs, on the live server, puts you at 250%-350% DEF (presuming you're also running the various Ice Armors in addition to EA) -- presuming that you hit all 10-15. I'm guessing from your 150% number that you feel you hit between 5-10 of the DE with EA which would put you at 150%-250%.
Beyond that, can you be more clear on the chain of events here? Because for me every time I'm in the middle of a group of DE and a Quartz beacon is dropped so is my Ice Tanker unless a healer is around. Now since you had Tough, vs DE which mostly do S/L damage then sure, you're probably fine. All they do is S/L with the exception of the mushrooms and spit which do Toxic.
Now, as you said, 4 lucks is a better defensive buff than EA vs 5 mobs. Its 100% to all as opposed to 93.75% to all except PSI. That means any character on the test server can beat the bonus of EA by popping just 4 lucks. Just think, a Blaster can pop 4 lucks and get more defense that the key power in our primary powerset will provide, and then on top of that have RES to Smash and Lethal from their ancilary pool.
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Incorrect. An Even Con Boss has a base To-Hit of 75%. A +1 Boss has a To-Hit around 81-82% and a +2 Boss has a To-Hit closer to 88-90%
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Yeah you're talking even con and I'm calculating for the more common even level situation. An even level boss has about an 85% chance to hit. An even con boss would have less of a chance to hit.
And if an even level boss did hit at 75% that means that the discrepency between Invuln and Ice is much higher...
Invul with boss calc at 75%:
100 * (0.75 - 0.54) = 21 hits
21 * 250 = 5250 gross damage
5250 * (1 - 0.90) = 525 net damage
Ice was at 937.5 net damage (its calc doesn't change, floored ACC is floored ACC). That makes the discepency 44%
This would mean that Permafrost's bases would have to be:
Lethal 20%
Smashing 20%
Cold 20% (not changed from current)
Fire 10% (not changed from current)
Energy 20%
Negative 20%
Toxic 11%
Which makes Max Slotted modified Permafrost:
Lethal 44%
Smashing 44%
Cold 44% (not changed from current)
Fire 22% (not changed from current)
Energy 44%
Negative 44%
Toxic 24.2%
So sure I'll take that over the other of that's really the case. But clearly the problem is huge whether its a 17% difference or a 44% one.
Edit: Also that would explain why Ice Tankers who take Tough are so much better off then Ice Tankers who don't in overall performance. At 75% they would be exactly covering the smash/lethal gap. Of course, they're likely getting Tough at the cost of permafrost which means they loose the extra Cold/Fire Resistance and unlike my example do not have the Energy/Negative Resistance or the additional Toxic Resistance.
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You're still incorrect. An Even Con Boss is one who's level is identical to yours. They should show up Orange. Geko stated a Boss's to-hit forever and a half ago with the Issue 1 Super Reflexes changes, and it's 75% Base for a Boss who's level is identical to yours. Some attacks have accuracy bonuses of course, but the Base to-Hit for a Boss is the same as it is for Players.
Sorry it took me so long to reply though.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
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You're still incorrect. An Even Con Boss is one who's level is identical to yours. They should show up Orange. Geko stated a Boss's to-hit forever and a half ago with the Issue 1 Super Reflexes changes, and it's 75% Base for a Boss who's level is identical to yours. Some attacks have accuracy bonuses of course, but the Base to-Hit for a Boss is the same as it is for Players.
Sorry it took me so long to reply though.
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And all I ask is that you play catchup. I already accepted what you said and rolled with it (about 75% accuracy). In fact, I found a nice little spreadsheet over on FOP that gave me all the values I needed from -10 to +10 for minion, lt and boss.
However, I'll correct you back. An even level boss is +2 con. An even con boss is -2 levels. I see people mix these up all the time. but level is the number shown as level. And con is the color/arrows. An even level boss will con orange or 2 arrows, and therefore be +2 con. An even con boss will con white, have no arrows, and be two levels lower than you. The exception being prisoners.
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I was doing some testing tonight on the Live Servers. I went and found 10-15 Devouring Earth that where even level and -1 to me. I got them all to atack me and hit EA. That was between 150-250% def with EA plus my armors.
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Just a note that geko provided us with a number of 18.75% per mob. So 10-15 mobs, on the live server, puts you at 250%-350% DEF (presuming you're also running the various Ice Armors in addition to EA) -- presuming that you hit all 10-15. I'm guessing from your 150% number that you feel you hit between 5-10 of the DE with EA which would put you at 150%-250%.
Beyond that, can you be more clear on the chain of events here? Because for me every time I'm in the middle of a group of DE and a Quartz beacon is dropped so is my Ice Tanker unless a healer is around. Now since you had Tough, vs DE which mostly do S/L damage then sure, you're probably fine. All they do is S/L with the exception of the mushrooms and spit which do Toxic.
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Ok. This was the scenario:
10-15 DE (Half even level, half -1 to me). Don't have an exact number since the number of swarn changes. I was "lucky" enough to have 2 Quartz next to me the whole time (The pet beacons, meaning a 200% Acc Buff to all the DE's).
I did hit most of them, if not all of them, with EA.
The reason I'm saying 150-250% is because I don't know if Geko's 18.75% applies to the Live Servers or only to the Test Server. So, that number could be from 15-ish mobs x 10%, or 15-ish mobs x 18.75%. To that 150-250% add the defense and resistance I get from my toggles (FA, WI, tough and hoarfrost. Wasn't running GA since they don't have energy atacks)
Chilling Embrace was on the whole time as well, plus Ice Patch.
Like I said before: I was just fine in the middle of those guys. Tough was taking care of some of the constant Swarns' damage and some of the other's accasional S/L's damage; hoarfrost of some of the accasional toxic damage.
Other than that hoarfrost and QXFace's Dark defender healing me once in a while where enough to stand there all day long.
With those same exact mobs (No more, no less), I waited until EA was about to drop to pop the 4 lucks. We all know what happen after that.
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Now, as you said, 4 lucks is a better defensive buff than EA vs 5 mobs. Its 100% to all as opposed to 93.75% to all except PSI. That means any character on the test server can beat the bonus of EA by popping just 4 lucks. Just think, a Blaster can pop 4 lucks and get more defense that the key power in our primary powerset will provide, and then on top of that have RES to Smash and Lethal from their ancilary pool.
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Well... We all know that is a little more complicated than that (Lucks expire, EA can be up as long as you have mobs and end... But then again a Blaster... Or a Fire tanker! could have 1 or 2 Force Field users following them around; but whatever), the important thing here is that we all need to realize that you can't rely on Defense only (Or cap defense for that matter) when there are so many ways for mobs (And other heroes if you're into PvP) to lower your defense to 0%.
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the important thing here is that we all need to realize that you can't rely on Defense only (Or cap defense for that matter) when there are so many ways for mobs (And other heroes if you're into PvP) to lower your defense to 0%.
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You and I both know we're in agreement on that 
I will point out though that despite lucks running out, they do last longer than EA's duration, and a Blaster can kill stuff much faster than a Tanker can.
That said, I'd also like to point out that for all the calculations I've run none of them do well to reflect the effects of an Ice Tanker's glass jaw. All the calculations reflect a large number of attacks over time.
However, generally speaking, higher level attacks do more damage than lower level ones, and once this kicks in, vs a Single attack that hits, if the attack is designed to hurt a max'd resistance character like an Invuln Tanker, it has a pretty good chance of killing an Ice Tanker.
For example, in order for a higher level attack to do 200 damage to something at the Tanker Resistance Cap of 90% it has to be doing 2000 damage before the Resistance is applied. If that same attack hits an Ice Tanker, the Ice Tanker is dead (at 2000 health or less). And it doesn't matter how much Defense or how many healers are standing behind you.
Add to that problem the probability that at some point the Tank will get hit by 2 attacks simultaneously. At high levels, fighting 20 mobs w/ good accuracy at a time, eventually the Tank's gonna take 2 hits. That probably means death w/o some sort of resistance power.
What if the defense per from EA scaled per level? Scaled UP per level, I mean.
I'll just throw out 5% per level.
So hitting 5 even level enemies would give you;
5 x 18.75)) = 93.75& defense
Hitting 5 +2 level enemies would give you:
5 x (18.75 + 10) = 143.75 defense.
I don't gnow the exact numbers for enemy accuracy increase per level, but if we could fudge with EA's numbers so that it could always floor enemies acc when it hits 5 enemies, then I think it could still be pretty useful while keeping us from achieving infinity defense. If EA takes you to 5% chance to be hit, add your other armors in and you could be safe against reasonable acc buffs/def debuffs, wouldn't you?
This wouldn't solve the entire problem Ice Tankers have with one-shots, but I think it could keep EA a very good power while removing the threat of getting infinity defense that the devs seem to be afraid of.
One other thing, was this adjustment supposed to balance PvP? I can't imagaine a situation where you could get more than 5 actual human players to stand near you long enough to EA them all. So the live version of EA would be as effective as the test version in PvP. This adjustment to EA really only affects PvE, which Ice Tankers are not dominating anyway.
If this change does go through, EA definitely needs to agro and end drain all the enemies in melee range regardless of whether it's getting def from them.
Having read through this thread I thought I would add my 2 cents. My main is a level 50 Ice/War Mace tanker. I have seen a lot of people say it is not possible/practical to level an ice tank with just WI and EA. I dont feel that is the case (at least with the current implementation of EA). I leveled up to 40 with just WI and EA. EA was my only real form of defense, without it I would have been a dead man. I have seen several people comment that the proposed changes to EA may be to persuade more ice tanks to pick up all the armors. I dont really think that is the case, since i3 came out most ice tankers I have seen have FA and WI at least. I have seen a few without GA but I would be willing to bet that changes when they reach there 40s. I took FA at 41 in an attempt to get all my armors before i3 came out and save my free respec. Admittedly FA made things a lot easier and if I where to do it all again I would take it as my first power; however, it did not fix the major problem I have with the ice set, that we can not reliably tank AVs/Monsters. Sure with FA/WI/GA and EA all on I can stand toe to toe with the biggest badest villains for a while but inevitably my luck turns and I will get one shoted or two shots will land at the same time. Sorry for the rant, now on to my point. The purposed changes to EA do nothing to fix the major deficiency in the ice set and only serves to lower our effectives in the one area we excelled, controlling and tanking the agro of large groups of minions and lieutenants. I think I could live with the decreased buff (at this point I have a fair amount of defense) what I feel is an unacceptable change is that EA will only drain end and draw agro from the 5 villains it hits.
It's a little more complicated than that. If it was just a matter of getting mobs down to a 5% chance to hit then we won't be having this conversation in the 1st place! I4's Ice Tankers have more than enough def to tank +3 bosses... In fact you saw me the other day tanking 5 +6's Nemesis minions... No way in hell I was going to be able to kill them, but they didn't kill me either. Also I was able to tank those guys because there where no Lieuthenants providing Leadership/Vengeance.
Usually while tanking Nemesis during normal missions (What I usually tank are +2's and +3's... +4 once in a while, and only if careful) I've seen vengeance glow 4 or more times in a row... That is a 100%+ Accuracy bonus to ALL the mobs (Vengeance provides 25% Acc bonus)
I've had people say to me: "Well! If the Lieuthenants are death, the the minions are death, too!"... Well, the reality is totally different.
The problem is all the ways to lower your defense that are in place in this game... Again, you saw what 15 even level DE minions did to me when they were getting a 200% Acc Bonus from the Quartz beacons. 200% Acc Bonus gives even level minions a 250% chance to hit you... WAY more than what I4's EA+armors can provide... Now imagine 3 or more beacons, and +2's DE! (Think Eden Trial)
This is slighty off topic, but worth mentioning. Is there any Archvillan that Ice tanks are going to be better at tanking than any other?
I'll go one further.
In the entire game, can anyone come up with one mission where you would do better to have an ice tank on your team?
The thing is, we can all list foes that simply decimate Ice tanks. And the absolute best we can hope for is 'as good as'? Every tank has a weakness, but we seem to share the weaknesses without the strengths.
Chilling Embrace is handy. It's simply not -that- powerful.
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In the entire game, can anyone come up with one mission where you would do better to have an ice tank on your team?
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Any mission with Malta Sappers. Any other Tanker in my Supergroup gnashes his teeth on how much they hate them, whereas I just charge on in. I am their offical "go-to" Tanker for Malta missions.
However, I will grant you that Ice Tankers suffer the pain against Archvillains.
OK, haven't quite made it through the last page of this long post, but before I loose my train of thought, I figured I'd post an idea.
Before that tho, props to Circeus, you have the ice tank community in mind and don't present us as a whiney bunch of 'wanna be 133ts'
After about a dozen or so people giving examples of how outclassed they are by Inv/* tankers, and a couple off posts about how its because they are autos, I realized, thats not quite it exactly. Its Endurance.
I don't have the time for super number right now, but maybe someone could run this. From what I can calculate on the fly, the abilities that Ice needs to pickup, we'll say FA, CE, WI, icicles, which you get by lvl 12 (8 lvls before stamina) you are spending end at almost twice the rate you regen it. So that means that you are only getting by, and hurting yourself attacking, IF you put 1 end reducer in each of those powers.
Now, I don't think I've heard of an Ice tank not 6slotting stamina, and running about those same toggles. So atleast now you are gaining end like a non-stamina person (and remember its assumed EVERYONE will take stamina). So you have enough to attack like a 20- character.
I play Ice/Fire, and lean more towards AoE, so I know I chew through guys a little quicker than most. But when those are recharging, I know its alot of little whiffs on guys, watch my end, see how close stuff is to recharging, and maybe swing again.
We spend alot of time in the middle of a group of guys, trying to keep our defense up while doing end management trying to see if we can fight back. With the damage output of Fire, and the lesser end worries of Inv, they put up a good offense too.
Remember, sometimes a good offense can be the best defense.
So maybe its adding to powers that we need, but go back and give us some end loving and reduce the costs a bit.
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What if the defense per from EA scaled per level? Scaled UP per level, I mean.
I'll just throw out 5% per level.
So hitting 5 even level enemies would give you;
5 x 18.75)) = 93.75& defense
Hitting 5 +2 level enemies would give you:
5 x (18.75 + 10) = 143.75 defense.
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No... those are just the numbers from EA. You're forgetting the additional DEF provided by Frozen Armor and Wet Ice. Its okay, I know we're so focused on EA here we're forgetting the other DEF powers we get, but don't worry all of my calculations are taking them into account.
vs Smash and Lethal, with FA and WI going and slotted for 1 End and 5 DEF (typical slotting post-I3) you're getting 55% from FA and 19.8% from WI for a total of 74.8%. You have to any bonuses from EA to that.
With that in mind it only takes 2 enemies to to floor the defense of any Boss mob from +0 to +6 in level -- meaning pretty much any boss, lt, or minion you encounter will have floored accuracy if they are in a group of 2 or more when fighting you if they are doing Smash/Lethal damage.
Those 2 mobs will bring you from 74.8% to 112.3%. And a +6 mobs accuracy is 116% (based on the spreadsheet at FOP).
Of course, none of this takes into account any acc buffs or def debuffs that occur at higher levels all the time.
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One other thing, was this adjustment supposed to balance PvP?
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Maybe, but it doesn't make a difference there really in a 1v1 battle. I mean it may have been the intent, and there is an Ice Armor character in the PvP video. But in 1-2 enemy battles its not even effective to kick off EA unless your defense is debuffed or their accuracy is buffed. At even level, another character has the same base accuracy as an even level boss 75%. That means out the door, without EA, their Accuracy is floored against you (75%-74.8% = 0.2%).
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I can't imagaine a situation where you could get more than 5 actual human players to stand near you long enough to EA them all. So the live version of EA would be as effective as the test version in PvP.
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With the lag that is likely involved in a large enough Battle Royale? I bet you could hit 10-20 with EA if it wasn't for the 5 target limit. Also modem vs broadband vs overseas... all those things will factor in. Local Broadband will likely be able to dive in and use EA far more effectively than an overseas modem user.
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If this change does go through, EA definitely needs to agro and end drain all the enemies in melee range regardless of whether it's getting def from them.
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Absolutely agree here, but the 5 person limit should be bumped up so we can compensate for acc buffs and defense debuffs. With 5 our max defense is 168.55%. This much defense is not effective vs Swarms, its not effective vs even a single Quartz beacon. At this much, the sting from getting debuffed by a Radiologist or a Rikti Guardian is going to hurt too.
At the very least it should be bumped from 5 to 7 so we can generate 200%. We should be able to generate significantly more defense with EA then an Invuln Tanker can with Invicibility.
Right now with 5 mobs we can generate 93.75% with EA.
At 10 mobs an Invuln Tanker is generating 80% with Invincibility (and heck, they might be able to get buffed by more than 10, who knows unless geko says).
80% is 85% of 93.75%. Including all defensive powers they're at over 50% of an Ice Tankers defense at this point, plus they have Resistance.
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80% is 85% of 93.75%. Including all defensive powers they're at over 50% of an Ice Tankers defense at this point, plus they have Resistance.
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Not to mention not having to trigger a 20 end power every 30 seconds.
As to the PVP balance question- could we have it work less effectively on players or something, if that is the reason for the change? FOcused Accuacy is still going to make us cry in pvp, but I'd rather have that then being at such reduced use in pve.
Also, Circeus- I know we don't always agree on all points, but you've done a very good job of being clear an precise. Glad to have you in the lead on this.
What are the base defenses for the three armors?
I've been assuming:
FA: 22.5 v S/L
WI: 9 v S/L, 12.5 v NRG/ENG
GA: 22.5 v RNG/ENG
But I've heard a lot of different answers so I could be wrong.
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This is slighty off topic, but worth mentioning. Is there any Archvillan that Ice tanks are going to be better at tanking than any other?
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Winter Lord :P... So basically once a year (If that fiasco ever comes back) we get to be the uber-tank.
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I'll go one further.
In the entire game, can anyone come up with one mission where you would do better to have an ice tank on your team?
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It all depends. Here I'm going to assume that we are looking for a Tanker, not a Scranker or whatever they like to call themself.
- When doing Crey with lots of "Cryo Tanks" an Ice tanker is better than a Fire tanker, but not as good as an Inv/* Tanker.
- Doing the general tanking against the Ninjas at Chimaera's Mission (Because of all the caltrops, and if you have tough)... Not so sure againt Chimaera himself. Overall probably Stone is better since the slow doesn't really matter to them Inv/ and Fire/ next, then us. In general we can tank better agains mobs that use "slow" atacks, unless those slows have a -def atached to them (Think Ruin Mages and Ruin Chamans)
- Sappers, but that's nothing any other AT can't do just by using a few Lucks. Inv/* Tankers can even use Unstoppable, and Lucks when Unstoppable is recharging. SR Scrappers and Regen Scrappers (And post-I4 Dark Armor Scrappers) have better chances against Sappers as well (I'm talking about Perma-Elude and Perma-MoG scrappers here)
So no! There isn't a "real life" situation in which we shine or anything like that.
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What if the defense per from EA scaled per level? Scaled UP per level, I mean.
I'll just throw out 5% per level.
So hitting 5 even level enemies would give you;
5 x 18.75)) = 93.75& defense
Hitting 5 +2 level enemies would give you:
5 x (18.75 + 10) = 143.75 defense.
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No... those are just the numbers from EA. You're forgetting the additional DEF provided by Frozen Armor and Wet Ice. Its okay, I know we're so focused on EA here we're forgetting the other DEF powers we get, but don't worry all of my calculations are taking them into account.
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Ah, yes, you're right.
But what about the idea of having EA's bonus scale up with the relative level of the mobs you hit?
IF we're only allowed to hit 5 enemies per EA, would scaling the absorbed defense make EA worthwhile? Overpowered? Or would it still be pretty bad?
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OK, haven't quite made it through the last page of this long post, but before I loose my train of thought, I figured I'd post an idea.
Before that tho, props to Circeus, you have the ice tank community in mind and don't present us as a whiney bunch of 'wanna be 133ts'
After about a dozen or so people giving examples of how outclassed they are by Inv/* tankers, and a couple off posts about how its because they are autos, I realized, thats not quite it exactly. Its Endurance.
I don't have the time for super number right now, but maybe someone could run this. From what I can calculate on the fly, the abilities that Ice needs to pickup, we'll say FA, CE, WI, icicles, which you get by lvl 12 (8 lvls before stamina) you are spending end at almost twice the rate you regen it. So that means that you are only getting by, and hurting yourself attacking, IF you put 1 end reducer in each of those powers.
Now, I don't think I've heard of an Ice tank not 6slotting stamina, and running about those same toggles. So atleast now you are gaining end like a non-stamina person (and remember its assumed EVERYONE will take stamina). So you have enough to attack like a 20- character.
I play Ice/Fire, and lean more towards AoE, so I know I chew through guys a little quicker than most. But when those are recharging, I know its alot of little whiffs on guys, watch my end, see how close stuff is to recharging, and maybe swing again.
We spend alot of time in the middle of a group of guys, trying to keep our defense up while doing end management trying to see if we can fight back. With the damage output of Fire, and the lesser end worries of Inv, they put up a good offense too.
Remember, sometimes a good offense can be the best defense.
So maybe its adding to powers that we need, but go back and give us some end loving and reduce the costs a bit.
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Those are very good points, we need to do a lot of micromanagement even if we take stamina. Running my SR scrapper is much easier than my Ice tanker! With SR all you have to do is get all the mobs in melee, then you can turn off one or two toggles (Range and/or Cone/AoE). With Ice tankers you need to be aware of what type of damage each mob does so you can turn off armors as necesary. Things get even more complicated if you are fighting more then one faction.
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Circ, I dont' completely agree with your reasoning.
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Initially I thought there were three bits of data missing to calculate this properly.
The first missing bit being how much level difference affects damage. For example, I picked the damage amount 250 for an even level boss. Presumably a +1 level boss does 250 * some factor, a +2 does 250 * a larger factor, etc. So that means as level increases overall damage increase.
The second being that as level in the boss increases, the amount to which Chilling Embrace affects things falls off. For example, does it fall off completely in 5 levels (meaning 5% loss per level if linear), or in 10 levels (meaning 2.5% loss per level).
I don't even know if these two things are a linear progession or an exponential one, though I suspect linear for both.
The third is if there is a cap to the number of mobs Invincibility will provide a cap from. geko kind of implied there was, but then again maybe there isn't.
Now with a little prodding, damge itself doesn't matter, just that there actually is damage, and the affect that the damage modifiers (Resistance and Defense) have vs the amount of damage taken. I didn't really figure this out until I plugged everything into a spreadsheet and started playing.
The only three factors that really affect the results are how many mobs there are, what the caps on number of allowed buffs from mobs are for each power (EA and Invinc), and the affects of Chilling Embrace.
Its like this, if Chilling Embrace's 25% looses 10% effectiveness per level difference, then by 10 levels out its at 0%. So the question becomes: how much less effective is it per level? If it tapers out in 5 levels you get much different results than if it tapers out at 10 levels.
For the sake of argument here I'm going to say that Chilling Embrace looses somewhere between that per level and looses it in a linear fashion. So I'll go with that versus +7 mobs CE would have no effect. Again, this is an assumption, not fact. I'm guessing.
Now, before I go forward, I'm going to be 100% truthful here and flat out say this whole thing is completely sporked. There is simply no effective way for the devs to ever balance Ice Armor and Invulnerablity simply based on the way they are designed. They've designed themselves into a corner.
What follows is long and took me hours to plug into a spreadsheet, and only about 30 minutes to present to you. Please take everything that follows with a grain of salt, but understand the real results are something like this and makes me wonder if geko and Castle aren't going prematurely bald over this stuff...
The following assumptions are made:
* The damaging/attacking mob is a boss, things would be different for a lt or a minion. I suspect that there is no fixed accuracy value for Elite Bosses, ArchVillains, and Monsters and that each has its own special accuracy (makes the most sense to me, but I could be wrong here). Though any accuracy higher than 75% will hurt Ice more in the long run as it will be flooring accuracy less often.
* The level of the boss runs from +0 to +6
* results are presented from 1 mob to 10 mobs (EA maxes at 5, and I figure if Invinc has a cap its likely twice that or 10), at 2 mobs Ice is always flooring an opponents ACC in the +0 to +6 range.
* vs +6 mobs Chilling Embrace is at its minimum effect with out being zero
* Chilling Embrace looses 15% effectiveness from its 25% base per level (3.75%) (this is a guess don't forget)
* We are not taking into account, accuracy bonuses (which severly hurt Ice Armor), defense debuffs, or resistance debuffs, or auto-hit attacks.
* any mobs beyond the boss are not attacking, but since the amount of damage doesn't matter, just as long as there is damage it doesn't matter if they hit or not.
* keep in mind I'm calculating best standard def/res for both characters vs the most common types of attacks in game -- smash and lethal
The first number preseted is the +level the mob has vs the character. The second number presented is the %more or less effective Invulnerability is then Ice Armor damagewise in the case presented. There's no need to figure what life would have been like if we could go beyond 5 mobs because of the assumptuions made above (no debuffs vs character, no acc buffs for attacker).
Versus 1 mob:
6 57.97
5 41.33
4 -2.56
3 -64.64
2 -57.58
1 -47.43
0 -36.00
Versus 2 mobs:
6 -73.34
5 -65.34
4 -56.67
3 -47.25
2 -39.40
1 -28.38
0 -16.00
Versus 3 mobs:
6 -57.95
5 -49.34
4 -40.00
3 -29.86
2 -21.22
1 -9.33
0 4.00
Versus 4 mobs:
6 -42.57
5 -33.34
4 -23.33
3 -12.47
2 -3.04
1 9.71
0 24.00
Versus 5 mobs (the 44% case I've been touting - this is geko's point of balance):
6 -27.18
5 -17.34
4 -6.67
3 4.92
2 15.15
1 28.76
0 44.00
Versus 6 mobs:
6 -11.80
5 -1.34
4 10.00
3 22.31
2 33.33
1 47.81
0 64.00
Versus 7 mobs:
6 3.58
5 14.66
4 26.67
3 39.70
2 51.51
1 66.86
0 84.00
Versus 8 mobs:
6 18.97
5 30.66
4 43.33
3 57.10
2 69.69
1 85.90
0 86.67
Versus 9 mobs:
6 34.35
5 46.66
4 60.00
3 74.49
2 87.87
1 87.30
0 86.67
Versus 10 mobs:
6 49.74
5 62.66
4 76.67
3 88.41
2 87.88
1 87.30
0 86.67
*****
What you will notice is this:
The sweetspot of Ice having any real superiority over Invuln is versus 2 mobs.
Versus 1 mob, Ice is superior from +0 to +3, and then more or less even with Invuln at +4, and then Invuln takes over for +5 and +6 level mobs.
However for each mob that is added after the 2nd, Invuln gets progressively stronger versus Ice. And after the 5 mob cap that EA has, its all uphill for Invuln, and all downhill for Ice by comparision.
Please note however that even without the 5 mob cap the numbers are the same -- floored Accuracy is floored accuracy and if there are no buffs/debuffs to be had then it only takes 2 mobs for ACC to be floored vs +0 to +6 mobs for an Ice Tanker.
Also based on what we know about how well Ice Tankers faire vs ArchVillains, I'm going to wager that AVs typically have around a 120-125% accuracy if not more. This would mean that 1v1 versus an AV that Invuln would come out 50-60% ahead of an Ice Tanker.