What is an even level AV's chance to hit?
Great thread so far, unfortunately I don't have anything useful to contribute. However, I'm still going to post for two reasons. First off, to try and show there are indeed more than 5 Ice tankers (I'm sure there are mabye 20 or so if you count unplayed alts!)
Second, I'm going to have to say I really like the way for the most part this hasn't been a "We're not the exact same as other builds, that's not fair!" thread. In particular, I think there are some great ideas out there for making Ice Better/stand out on its own (for example, what if Ice became the low end king/Scranker Dream set, or adding health bonuses to our most useless power Permafrost.)
I think the solution here would be a bunch of minor tweaks that add up to something nice for Ice tanks. For example ok we can go with the new EA def buff, but now include psi in its def, also keep (for PvM) the end drain/taunt. Allow the -recharge of CE to be affected by slow Enhs, give permafrost a perm HP boost, and reduce the end use of all of our powers. Suddenly Ice/ is far less gimped, still in no way Uber, and most importantly is still a unique set. That's the core reason I think most of us took ice; for a unique set.
I'm using 25% base for FA and GA. And then the same 9%/12.5% for WI. The 2.5% is not going to make tons of difference either way you slice it.
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But what about the idea of having EA's bonus scale up with the relative level of the mobs you hit?
IF we're only allowed to hit 5 enemies per EA, would scaling the absorbed defense make EA worthwhile? Overpowered? Or would it still be pretty bad?
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Once ACC is floored its floored so extra DEF doesn't enter into the equation unless ACC buffs and DEF debuffs start to. Then it depends on how much of those buffs/debuffs you want to allow the Ice Tanker to compensate for. -100% DEF? Then you have to make sure that they always exceed flooring by 100%. +200% ACC? Then you have to make sure they compensate by guarteeing that flooring is exceeded by 200%.
That said, an interesing thought I just had... with all these new Resistances going into game -- none of which an Ice Tanker has gotten -- maybe it'd be nice if another was added. Something that rebuffs an opponents ACC buff and rebuffs DEF debuffs. This would certainly make Ice Armor stand out from every other set if no other set had at this ability.
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Second, I'm going to have to say I really like the way for the most part this hasn't been a "We're not the exact same as other builds, that's not fair!" thread. In particular, I think there are some great ideas out there for making Ice Better/stand out on its own (for example, what if Ice became the low end king/Scranker Dream set, or adding health bonuses to our most useless power Permafrost.)
I think the solution here would be a bunch of minor tweaks that add up to something nice for Ice tanks. For example ok we can go with the new EA def buff, but now include psi in its def, also keep (for PvM) the end drain/taunt. Allow the -recharge of CE to be affected by slow Enhs, give permafrost a perm HP boost, and reduce the end use of all of our powers. Suddenly Ice/ is far less gimped, still in no way Uber, and most importantly is still a unique set. That's the core reason I think most of us took ice; for a unique set.
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I agree a lot with this.
I think the devs have done the best job with tanks as far as making the indivual sets in an AT each have a different feel.
Stone is the tankiest of the tanks.
Inv is the scrappiest tank.
Fire is the blastiest.
And Ice is the controliest(maybe the defenderiest?).
If we believe that Ice is 44% behind Inv, I would like to see that 44% get added in Ice's strong points: control/defense.
Giving us 44% damage resistance might be the easiest way to bring us up to Inv standards, but I think it is a bit inelegant and really just turns us into Inv tankers.
There have been a bunch of suggestions for fun/neat/original/icy/controllery ways to enhance Ice Armor that don't step on the toes of the big, beefy feel of Inv/Stone. That's the direction that I would like to see Ice tanks improve in.
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I understand the rational behind the 44%, but thats on one 'round' of combat.
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No your missing the following statement I made in last nights huge post:
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Now with a little prodding, damge itself doesn't matter, just that there actually is damage, and the affect that the damage modifiers (Resistance and Defense) have vs the amount of damage taken. I didn't really figure this out until I plugged everything into a spreadsheet and started playing.
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The amount of damage coming in doesn't matter, just that there is damage. That's very important towards understanding this issue. It doesn't matter if its 1 hit doing 2000 points of damage or 100 doing 2000 damage or 2000 doing 1 point of damage. That 44% number will remain consitent.
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You are assuming that a inv/* and a ice/* take the same number of attacks in a given combat.
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For this to work you have to. I'm sorry if you don't understand that, but we're talking from pure defense. Secondary sets can't enter into the equation here, which is the mistake you're making. An Ice/Energy is going to be as effective at killing as an Invuln/Energy. You're muddling the waters, and forgetting that Ice and Invuln have equal access to the same pools, the same secondaries, etc.
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Really, the Inv tanker has more end to play with to throw more attacks, plus an acc buff to hit better.
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I'll give you the ACC buff, but really the End usage running CE/FA/WI/GA at the same time is only 0.2-0.3 more than Invulns Inv/TI/Uy. Its like 1.4 per tic from Ice vs 1.1 for Invuln. Icicles though is another 1 End per tic. That is huge, and the benefit from Icicles is not much (again more End then and less damaging then Blazing Aura). But really a DEF buff makes more sense on Chilling Embrace -- slow things are easier to hit.
Combat for Ice is not slow. Its slow if you expect Icicles to do all the killing for you. If you play like this you will never be sucessful. Mobile Caltrops approach works, but you still have to use your other attacks. If you don't, the approach fails long term.
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You're still incorrect. An Even Con Boss is one who's level is identical to yours. They should show up Orange. Geko stated a Boss's to-hit forever and a half ago with the Issue 1 Super Reflexes changes, and it's 75% Base for a Boss who's level is identical to yours. Some attacks have accuracy bonuses of course, but the Base to-Hit for a Boss is the same as it is for Players.
Sorry it took me so long to reply though.
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And all I ask is that you play catchup. I already accepted what you said and rolled with it (about 75% accuracy). In fact, I found a nice little spreadsheet over on FOP that gave me all the values I needed from -10 to +10 for minion, lt and boss.
However, I'll correct you back. An even level boss is +2 con. An even con boss is -2 levels. I see people mix these up all the time. but level is the number shown as level. And con is the color/arrows. An even level boss will con orange or 2 arrows, and therefore be +2 con. An even con boss will con white, have no arrows, and be two levels lower than you. The exception being prisoners.
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Sorry missed that correction. But everyone I've ever talked to uses con to refer to numerical level, not color/arrows.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
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Really, the Inv tanker has more end to play with to throw more attacks, plus an acc buff to hit better.
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I'll give you the ACC buff, but really the End usage running CE/FA/WI/GA at the same time is only 0.2-0.3 more than Invulns Inv/TI/Uy. Its like 1.4 per tic from Ice vs 1.1 for Invuln. Icicles though is another 1 End per tic. That is huge, and the benefit from Icicles is not much (again more End then and less damaging then Blazing Aura). But really a DEF buff makes more sense on Chilling Embrace -- slow things are easier to hit.
Combat for Ice is not slow. Its slow if you expect Icicles to do all the killing for you. If you play like this you will never be sucessful. Mobile Caltrops approach works, but you still have to use your other attacks. If you don't, the approach fails long term.
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Do you think that if Icicles ALSO had a Slow effect it'd even things out?
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
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But everyone I've ever talked to uses con to refer to numerical level, not color/arrows.
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Likely because they don't really understand the difference. A lot of people I speak to in game don't even understand there is a difference.
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Do you think that if Icicles ALSO had a Slow effect it'd even things out?
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It could. vs. 5 mobs with an even level boss attacking, to bring the 44% down to 0% would require a total -Recharge (not Slow) of 58%. So that's an additional 33%.
Now with that said it also flubs the overall numbers up even more.
Right now the numbers are pretty disparate. It is my estimation that without something seriously new coming into the picture DEF can never be balanced vs a mixture of DEF and RES.
With that 58%, the picture for Ice starts out very strong, but gets steadily weaker at a much steeper pace. In this case (which does not exist for real -- I just like to clarify for people who only read the end of threads) Invuln vs Ice looks like this:
First column is # of mobs, second column is % Invuln vs Ice
1 -142.86
2 -107.14
3 -71.43
4 -35.71
5 0.00
6 35.71
7 71.43
8 76.19 (anything past 8 mobs is the same)
So the picture would look great going in, until you see that more mobs means Invuln gets better and really shines. Which is no different than when Chilling Embrace is at 25%.
The devs need to come up with something where no matter how many mobs, and no matter how many levels above or below the character level they are, Invuln and Ice always stay at 0%.
The only way to do this is give something to both that boosts Invuln more at first and less later on, and that boosts Ice less initially and more later on in the charts.
What the heck that would be I don't know. Like I said they've designed themselves into a hole.
Quick question... does EA still stack? I mean, if we use it once and get the 5 mob bonus, does hitting again (assuming you slots for a lot of recharges/hasten) give us another 5, for a 10 mob bonus?
Conceivably you could triple stack it if you did perma-Hasten and another 6 rechargers in Energy Absorbtion. But its going to cost a lot of Endurance to do this, and most mobs will be floored in Acc with a much lighter application.
Letting people here know that I just put up the following:
Ice Armor Bug and Fix Update (03-25-2005)
We picked up 2 bugfixes, and 5 new bugs, 19 bugs total, 16 are Not Fixed or New.
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but really the End usage running CE/FA/WI/GA at the same time is only 0.2-0.3 more than Invulns Inv/TI/Uy.
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Are you using these numbers as a per tick or per second end use? If per second, where are you finding these ones so I can update mine.
I show Invuln with TI, Uy, Inv using 1.06/sec without end red.
and Ice Just with FA/WI/CE as 1.64/sec, don't micromange, and just flat add GA to that brings you to 1.98, then Icicles takes you to 2.98. almost 2.5 times the end usage. Without stamina that gives you a loss of 1.31/second.
Now I'm using the end costs out of CoH Hero Builder, because they seemed to match what I was finding on the boards when I got it. So you know where I'm pulling my data from.
A lot of the planners report Frozen Armor at 1 per tic. Its only about 1/3 of that.
FA 0.33
WI 0.33
GA 0.33
CE 0.33
Icicles 1.0
Inv 0.3
TI 0.4
Uy 0.4
So Inv is at 1.1 per tic (every time End is removed), and Ice at 1.33ish (w/out Icicles) and 2.33ish with Icicles.
OK, well, if thats the case then I guess we should be really looking towards another end drop in icicles.
Otherwise we'd want to try and avoid it mostly.
So really a power that should give us an edge, is helping cripple us.
So for minor tweaks then, if we broght Icicles end cost down in line with BA, .75 and put our EA cap at 10 instead of 5. I'd almost think we'd be a bit more survivable. But, how would that affect our 44%?
How does damage dealt, to prevent damage in affect the equation?
I am really surprised that Icicles is 1.0/tic. I thing my endurance manages fairly well, and I have Axe as my secondary. I have 1 end rdx in all my armors and tough, 2 in CE, none in EA, 1 in all my axe attacks except Cleave and Swoop, and 1 in icicles. I run FA, WI, GA, CE, Icicles, and Tough and I do fine whenevr my enhancements are +1 to +3. But ya, an end drop in Icicles would be nice, and some sort of change to EA.
OK, Circeus, and anyone else.
I went and re-read Circ's calcs, and finally my mind realized it needed to work and I realized what we were comparing.
Between my skewed thinking on what we were comparing, and those calcs, I think I may have realized what the missing component is here.
Gonna burp it out then see if it makes any sense raw.
When we are comparing Ice, we are flat comparing to another set. Usually, Inv/*. BUT, the set has something Inv doesn't, Damage, Icicles. The game is 2 way. Damage in, Damage out.
So, that would mean, from a primary perspective. If we had a fight with just primary power, and brawl, we'd have the advantage (yay, lets get rid of all secondaries).
So really, what we are supposed to have is a defensive power, that helps soften the baddies a little. Because like you said, all secondaries have equal access.
So, therefore, like I had surmised from the end post I made a bit ago. Icicles, is supposed to be our edge, but its crippling us.
The 44% is a number for an infinite fight, but fights are finite.
If Damage out > Damage in = Win, If Damage in > Damage out = death.
So, then, we have to assure the following
Damage out end cost + Damage in end cost <= Endurance recovered.
That would mean we have to have a ratio of Damage out
amage out end cost.
This ratio is where we should be ahead of the Inv tanker.
From a balance stand point, we'd need to determine this ratio for Fire tanks as well, and we would need to be below them but above invuln.
Now lemme post this before I get to the hurful part . . .
the numbers.
OK, now, I've tried to break this down here with my scribble pad.
First acknowledge that
-Damage outamage out end cost for all secondaries is Constant, lets call it Y.
-Damage outamage out end cost for each Primary will vary, lets call it X
-Damage inamage in end cost for each Primary will vary, lets call this guy Z (Now this assumes that it is either Def, or Res)
So, if thats all true then we should get a silly formula that looks like this I think
X+Y*Z=A
where A is the magic tanker balance number
But that seems too easy to apply the Defense ratio as a multiplier.
Not to mention that that Defense ratio changes depending on the number of mobs and the con, as Circ has already shown.
Thats where I get really confuzzled. But I figured, maybe someone else can step from there, or point out where I jack-knived into the ditch. In the mean time I'm sure it will crowd my thoughts as I play.
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OK, Circeus, and anyone else.
I went and re-read Circ's calcs, and finally my mind realized it needed to work and I realized what we were comparing.
Between my skewed thinking on what we were comparing, and those calcs, I think I may have realized what the missing component is here.
Gonna burp it out then see if it makes any sense raw.
When we are comparing Ice, we are flat comparing to another set. Usually, Inv/*. BUT, the set has something Inv doesn't, Damage, Icicles. The game is 2 way. Damage in, Damage out.
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Honestly? If Geko was to tell me that he will give us 10-15% Res to all -psionics, but that to do that he is going to replace icicles with a "boombox" power... I'd take that. The damage is ok to take even level mobs, but only if you 6 slotted (1 Acc, 1 End, 4 damage). As you go higher the accuracy and damage go down faster than Paris Hilton.
The only reason I keep that power around is to help agro a little bit (Since I'm always surrounded by lots of mobs), and because is the only way I can solo once in a while when I don't feel like teaming.
When I 1st learn about I4's EA I was thinking about droping Icicles to be able to slot EA (Since it's the only power I can't live without), but after all the testing I've been doing on Live and Test Servers I've decided that if they actually keep the chances to EA (Because they're going live for sure, unless that's one of the thing they're planning to fix this thuesday) then I'm just going to roll an Inv/EM and become yet another FotM.
Anyways... I guess that my point (If any... It's really late and don't feel like thinking) is that if I was to be told that Icicles/CE is what makes them think that EA is too overpowered, or that Ice Tanker are as good as any other tanker; then for me to belived that I'd have to see Icicles doing at least 9 times more damage that what it does currently.
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OK, Circeus, and anyone else.
I went and re-read Circ's calcs, and finally my mind realized it needed to work and I realized what we were comparing.
Between my skewed thinking on what we were comparing, and those calcs, I think I may have realized what the missing component is here.
Gonna burp it out then see if it makes any sense raw.
When we are comparing Ice, we are flat comparing to another set. Usually, Inv/*. BUT, the set has something Inv doesn't, Damage, Icicles. The game is 2 way. Damage in, Damage out.
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Invuln Tanker here. I support some buff'age to Ice Armor. You are right in your assessment, but Invuln has one ability that other sets don't. An ACC buff. That indirectly leads to more damage in two ways. An attack that would have missed but didn't is more damage. And it allows an Invuln Tanker chance out an ACC Enhancer for something else. For example, in the case of my Tanker Fuzun, it was for damage. But it can easily be for a Stun Enhancer if I were to slot my Total Focus for Crowd Control.
As everyone has been saying to have to look at the entire set(s) if you want an accurate picture. The ACC buf for Invinc gives will more than make up for the Icles damage.
I'll be honest... right now I don't have Icicles. When push comes to shove and you need to drop a power to get pool powers Icicles, to me comes right after Permafrost as the least effective power in the Ice Armor set. Even Hibernate is more useful.
In beta, I played an Ice/Stone Tanker like I do now, in fact I was 1 of only 3 or 4 high level Ice Armor Tankers back then. In beta, because I played one of the Archetype Champions, I made sure I had every power in both sets to make sure I understood how every power worked in both sets worked, and why they worked that way.
And, so, in beta I had Icicles. And my feeling about it was this: no matter how much I slotted it with damage, it never killed things fast enough to make a difference. Any AoE from any Tanker secondary will help you kill stuff faster and more efficiently then Icicles ever will. Especially if you're solo.
If you're teamed? Forget it, by the time Icicles has poked a few times, things are dead. Now maybe it got you the killing blow when it had a few meager health left, but only if it was standing right next to you.
So if Icicles is intended to be Burn for Ice Tankers, then its a joke, because its less effective then Blazing Aura, and Blazing Aura is used to supplement Burn, not the other way around. Blazing Aura damages as quickly as Icicles does, for less End, and has a wider AoE and stronger damage.
Its damage output is not enough to take into account, same as a Fire Tanker doesn't count Blazing Aura as part of its Offensively based Defense -- they use it to assist Burn, and some Fire Tankers skip it completely because they simply don't need it.
Um Circ, I have a couple really important questions for you.
1) I have no idea what pool powers you could be taking that would cause you to drop Icicles. I have all the Ice powers but Permafrost and Hibernate, and all the Axe powers but Chop and Build Up. I also have 3 powers from fitness, 2 from Leaping, 2 from Fighting, and 1 from Arctic Mastery. I'm lvl 45. What powers did you need so badly that you HAD to drop Icicles!? I'm genuinely curious.
2) How theh ell is Hibernate more useful than Icicles, that's just crazy talk.
3) You said that any AoE attack from a tanker secondary is more useful than Icicles will ever be at helping to kill large groups of mobs. At lvl 45 I have Icicles and Whirling Axe 6 slotted the same way, 1 acc/1endrdx/4 dmg. To +2 minions Whirling Axe does approximately 70 damage; in the time that Whirling Axe is being used and then recharging, Icicles hits about 3 times would be my guess, maybe 2 or 2.5. Icicles does 13 damage per tic. If I were to only use Whirling Axe, as it is my only AoE, then for every use of Whirling Axe I would be increasing my damage output but 33-50% of Whirling Axe's damage (26 from icicles at 2 tics, 39 damage from 3 tics). 33-50%. I really hope you do not consider that insignificant, or ever dare to mention such sacreligous text as Hibernate being more useful. And I didn't even mention the taunt factor.
As for the rest of you, where is this starvation of slots coming from? I'm assuming we're analyzing Ice tankers late game, as in 40+. At 45 I have FA, WI, EA, Stamina, Icicles, Hoarfrost, Beheader, Whirling Axe, Cleave, and Pendulum 6 slotted. Tough is 5 slotted. Health is 3 slotted. Block of Ice, Glacial Armor, Ice Blast, and Build-Up will all eventually have 3 slots. But at 45, defensively, I just need one more slot for Tough, which I will put in next level, and I will be done. I have seen numerous posts along the lines of "I'm dropping Icicles so that I have slots for EA! Ice is gimped :'(:'(:'(" I am really befuddled as to where all your slots have gone! Dropping Icicles so that EA can be slotted!? Just to give all you rookie Ice Tankers a look at how a good slotting plan looks, here's my build:
Exported from version 1.5A of CoH Planner
http://joechott.com/coh
Archetype: Tanker
Primary Powers - Ranged : Ice Armor
Secondary Powers - Support : Battle Axe
Level 01 : Gash
Accuracy ( 01 )
Level 01 : Frozen Armor
Endurance Reduction ( 01 )
Defense Buff ( 3 )
Defense Buff ( 3 )
Defense Buff ( 5 )
Defense Buff ( 5 )
Defense Buff ( 7 )
Level 02 : Hoarfrost
Recharge Reduction ( 02 )
Recharge Reduction ( 7 )
Recharge Reduction ( 9 )
Recharge Reduction ( 9 )
Recharge Reduction ( 11 )
Endurance Reduction ( 11 )
Level 04 : Taunt
Recharge Reduction ( 04 )
Level 06 : Boxing
Accuracy ( 06 )
Level 08 : Chilling Embrace
Endurance Reduction ( 08 )
Endurance Reduction ( 13 )
Level 10 : Beheader
Accuracy ( 10 )
Endurance Reduction ( 13 )
Damage ( 15 )
Damage ( 15 )
Damage ( 17 )
Damage ( 17 )
Level 12 : Jump Kick
Accuracy ( 12 )
Level 14 : Super Jump
Jump ( 14 )
Level 16 : Hurdle
Jump ( 16 )
Level 18 : Health
Healing ( 18 )
Healing ( 19 )
Healing ( 19 )
Healing ( 46 )
Level 20 : Stamina
Endurance Recovery ( 20 )
Endurance Recovery ( 21 )
Endurance Recovery ( 21 )
Endurance Recovery ( 23 )
Endurance Recovery ( 25 )
Endurance Recovery ( 33 )
Level 22 : Wet Ice
Endurance Reduction ( 22 )
Defense Buff ( 23 )
Defense Buff ( 25 )
Defense Buff ( 29 )
Defense Buff ( 31 )
Defense Buff ( 39 )
Level 24 : Swoop
Accuracy ( 24 )
Level 26 : Energy Absorption
Recharge Reduction ( 26 )
Recharge Reduction ( 27 )
Defense Buff ( 27 )
Defense Buff ( 29 )
Endurance Drain ( 31 )
Endurance Drain ( 33 )
Level 28 : Whirling Axe
Accuracy ( 28 )
Endurance Reduction ( 34 )
Damage ( 43 )
Damage ( 45 )
Damage ( 45 )
Damage ( 45 )
Level 30 : Tough
Endurance Reduction ( 30 )
Damage Resistance ( 31 )
Damage Resistance ( 33 )
Damage Resistance ( 34 )
Damage Resistance ( 36 )
Damage Resistance ( 46 )
Level 32 : Icicles
Accuracy ( 32 )
Endurance Reduction ( 34 )
Damage ( 42 )
Damage ( 42 )
Damage ( 43 )
Damage ( 43 )
Level 35 : Cleave
Accuracy ( 35 )
Damage ( 36 )
Damage ( 36 )
Damage ( 37 )
Damage ( 37 )
Damage ( 37 )
Level 38 : Pendulum
Accuracy ( 38 )
Endurance Reduction ( 39 )
Damage ( 39 )
Damage ( 40 )
Damage ( 40 )
Damage ( 40 )
Level 41 : Block of Ice
Accuracy ( 41 )
Hold Duration ( 42 )
Recharge Reduction ( 46 )
Level 44 : Glacial Armor
Endurance Reduction ( 44 )
Defense Buff ( 48 )
Defense Buff ( 50 )
Level 47 : Ice Blast
Accuracy ( 47 )
Damage ( 48 )
Damage ( 48 )
Level 49 : Build Up
Recharge Reduction ( 49 )
Recharge Reduction ( 50 )
Recharge Reduction ( 50 )
Where did you get the impression that any of us are starving for slots? I never said that, and neither did Circ.
The problem is simple, and has been stated numerous times: Ice Tankers are the ONLY set that can be one-shotted by an AV or monster class villian, unless we give up two powers in order to pick up Tough. With the disperancies both between the number of defense buffs versus the number of resistance buffs AND between resistance and defense, Ice Tankers cannot compete with any other Tanker primary.
And now geko seems under the impression that Energy Absorption (which only barely begins to help Ice Tankers narrow the gap) is way overpowered and is nuking it to near-ineffectiveness.
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the 44% case I've been touting
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I understand the rational behind the 44%, but thats on one 'round' of combat. You are assuming that a inv/* and a ice/* take the same number of attacks in a given combat.
I'm sure most will agree that Ice is going to be a slow battle. If you solo, very slow, if you are the tank on the team slightly less slow because you can't add that offensive punch to the team. Really, the Inv tanker has more end to play with to throw more attacks, plus an acc buff to hit better. The Ice tank is managing end with toggles going, and having much less end to attack with, and since he has so many slots in defense powers now, he hits less often, and likely for less damage.
So really, an Ice tank would be in that fight between 2-4 times as long. Thereby taking 2-4 times as much damage, increasing that number to 88%-176%. I'd assume 3x on average for a soft number of 132% for a total fight.
The real swing things here that make us so much less viable, seem to be end, and accuracy really. But accuracy buff is copycat. But maybe, for the end that it costs we add def debuff to icicles. Then it might be a better trade off for the cost.