When I 1st learn about I4's EA I was thinking about droping Icicles to be able to slot EA (Since it's the only power I can't live without), but after all the testing I've been doing on Live and Test Servers I've decided that if they actually keep the chances to EA (Because they're going live for sure, unless that's one of the thing they're planning to fix this thuesday) then I'm just going to roll an Inv/EM and become yet another FotM.
Anyways... I guess that my point (If any... It's really late and don't feel like thinking) is that if I was to be told that Icicles/CE is what makes them think that EA is too overpowered, or that Ice Tanker are as good as any other tanker; then for me to belived that I'd have to see Icicles doing at least 9 times more damage that what it does currently.
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This is just one such post I saw Archimedes concerning some sort of slot problems a player is having.
Secondly, this is directed directly at Archimedes and Circeus: What powers did you need to take so bad that taking Boxing/Kick and Tough hurt your build so bad? I've consistently pointed out that I have been much closer to having no powers that I want than too many powers that I want. Why is taking two fighting pool powers so detrimental to your build Archimedes, and why is taking Icicles bad for you Circeus?
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1) I have no idea what pool powers you could be taking that would cause you to drop Icicles. I have all the Ice powers but Permafrost and Hibernate, and all the Axe powers but Chop and Build Up. I also have 3 powers from fitness, 2 from Leaping, 2 from Fighting, and 1 from Arctic Mastery. I'm lvl 45. What powers did you need so badly that you HAD to drop Icicles!? I'm genuinely curious.
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This from someone who put off Glacial Armor until level 44? I mean seriously how can you question my choice not to take Icicles while you're getting whomped by Energy which is about the 3rd or 4th most prevalent attack form in game.
For Starters my pool powers are: Hurdle(1)/Health(3)/Stamina(6), Jump Kick(2)/SuperJump(1), Hasten(6)
Before you scoff "Hasten?", its like this. The recharge times in Stone are slow. In beta I found myself slotting each of the 5 major stone attacks (Stone Fist, Stone Mallet, Heavy Mallet, Tremor, and Seismic Smash) with a Recharge Reducer to make them come up quicker. So I did the math, 5 powers, 5 recharge reducers, and each of those recharge slots in the powers can then become damage, so why not take Hasten?
What I took were powers that work better at mitigating damage then Icicles ever will. For Stone Melee, that's Fault and Tremor. Keeping things on their rear-ends or keeping them woogly is far more effective thent he damage from Icicles ever will be.
Tremor does roughly 6 times the damage over Icicles. That means that Icicles, which has to hit as the hits are not automatic, has to hit 6 times before Tremor recovers again to do the same damage. Tremor is 99% comparable to Whirling Axe (WA has slightly faster animation) as they have the same damage output. You say in the time it takes from one Axe swing to the next that Icicles hits 3 times. Half of 6.
Keeping in mind that both powers are less accurate because they are AoE powers lets say their penalty is the same -5%, so that before enhancements they're 70% to hit. Add in 1 ACC as per your build and they're 93% to hit.
Versus even con enemies, to do its damage Tremor has to hit each target once with a 93% chance of success per target. To do the same Icicles has to hit 6 times, and since you multiply percentages to find probability thats 93%^6 or a 65% chance to do the same damage to each target.
If the penalty is -10%, then things are bleaker for Icicles as its chances drop to 40%, but Tremor only falls to 86%. Both of these per target.
From there, to me the choice is obvious as to which power to pick.
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2) How theh ell is Hibernate more useful than Icicles, that's just crazy talk.
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Really? Lets see... Icicles can't kill minions in less than 20 seconds, yet if I'm in serious trouble, despite its other fallbacks (lack of movement, lack of attacking, doesn't draw agro, etc.), I can heal back to full health in under 20 seconds with Hibernate. And I can Taunt right before going in, and Taunt will last until I'm healed and broken out of Hibernate, and at that point I can Taunt again. Maintaining agro all the while.
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3) You said that any AoE attack from a tanker secondary is more useful than Icicles will ever be at helping...
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Okay lets go with your numbers here Whirling Axe hits everything for 70 damage. Icicles only about 40. Lets say each mob has 300 damage. And for the sake of argument, every attack hits. And we'll assume each power has an End reducer.
EPS will be End used per second, and DPS Damage per second per target.
Icicles gets 3 hits in 14 seconds? That implies a much lower chance to hit than I had thought above. Unless it only attacks 3 times in the 14 seconds per WA attack (which would be 1 attack every 4.5 seconds -- to me that seems slow), but that would explain why sometimes you think 2 hits in the time period.
Whirling Axe 70 damage per hit at 14.25 End, Icicles 13 damage per hit at 0.75 end/sec.
To figure this out you can take the chance to hit per attack and multiply it by the damage per attack.
WA is 70 * 0.93 = 65
Icicles is 13 * 0.93 = 12
Alone Whirling Axe requires 5 hits by itself to kill everything (actually 4.6 but we round up here), for a total of 71.25 End, and takes 56 seconds. EPS is 1.3 (71.25/56). DPS is 6.25 (5*70/56).
Icicles alone would take 25 hits by itself to kill everything, taking 112.5 seconds. EPS is already 0.75. Making total End 84.375. DPS is 2.67 (25*12/112.5).
Together, they are doing 65+(3*12) = 101 damage. This implies 3 applications of Whirling Axe, but the duration of 14 seconds for Icicles to finish them off. So this takes 42. This is for 42.75 End from WA 31.5 End. For a total of 74.25 End. EPS is 1.76. DPS is 7.2.
Time savings 14s or 25%
EPS increase is 0.46 or 35%
DPS increase is 0.95 or 15%
To me, saving 14 seconds to have 0.46 extra end being burned per second only to increase the damage per second by 1 point is not worth the powerslot to me. That powerslot is just better used to do other things.
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As for the rest of you...
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Most of us get and 6 slot wet ice a lot sooner. You get (got?) both WI and GA way too late in the game. You could have had a lot more benefit from both had you gotten and slotted each about 15 levels sooner.
You also sacrificed GA earlier to get Tough, in my mind by the time you get it, why even bother? And you should have gotten Wet Ice when you got Boxing. If you're not going to slot it, you don't need it when you got it. Taunt is probably a little early considering you got CE so early too.
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Secondly, this is directed directly at Archimedes and Circeus: What powers did you need to take so bad that taking Boxing/Kick and Tough hurt your build so bad? I've consistently pointed out that I have been much closer to having no powers that I want than too many powers that I want. Why is taking two fighting pool powers so detrimental to your build Archimedes, and why is taking Icicles bad for you Circeus?
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Okay... for the record here... its not that I don't want to take Tough, in fact, I'm playing with a build on test right now to respec to get it. The overall point of this thread is that to be as effective as it is, Invuln does not have to get Tough (or Weave ). So, if Invuln is (according to Statesman) supposed to be the balancing line for all Tankers, why should any other Tanker Primary have to buy into any Defensive power pool in an attempt to try to make itself as effective as the balancing line?
Answer is simple, they shouldn't -- and I'm sorry you don't get that.
Also according to Statesman, pools are supposed to be optional. That means each Tanker Primary should be capable of standing on its own (sans pools) against every other Tanker Primary and break even.
Right now they don't -- and again I'm sorry you don't get that.
What I want to know at this point is if the devs get either of these points?
First Circ, I think you misunderstood my point. I was saying why would you ever drop Icicles if, when coupled with your AoE Tanker secondary attack, you increased your damage output by 50%!? For soloing it's great, for grouping I like it a lot as well as it softens up enemies while I herd. Some of your numbers look wrong in the second point. You need to label your data for me to be able to follow it more clearly.
I'm saying that if an enemy has 300 life, by having Icicles on I can use Whirling Axe 3 times fro 210 damage, and Icicles will hit approximately 9 times in that timeframe of 3 WA uses, providing the remaining 90 or so damage to finish off the enemy.
Without Icicles you have to use Whirling Axe 5 times, WA has a rchg of 14 sec, totalling 59(it has to recharge 4 times for 5 uses, plus a bit more for the last activation time) seconds.
With Icicles, I use WA just 3 times, for a total of 31 sec (2 rchgs plus a bit for last activation time)(My numbers might be a bit off, so allow for maybe a +/- 2 sec error), a 47% reduction in the time to kill the enemy.
5 uses of WA costs 68.65 end, at 13.73 per use with one +3 SO. With 3 uses of WA and Icicles running, I use 3uses(13.73) + 31sec(0.75) = 64.44 end. By my calculations, which my be a bit off, I save end and time to kill my enemies (based of fighting +1 or 2 minions and WA and Icicles 6 slotted with 1acc/1endrdx/4dmg).
Second, I took Wet Ice at 22 because I did not feel holds, mezzes, immobs, etc were very prevalent pre 20. I didn't die very often and I still only have one of the badges for being mezzed. Pre Wet Ice I was never overwrought with holds, and I honestly believe, from playing this game since beta just like you, that protection from holds aren't critical til post 20.
Third, Energy is not prevalent in any respect. Pre 26(EA) you almost never see it, and I cannot recall any time pre 40 when I died from an energy attack. The reason is that the majority of energy attacks also have smashing damage components, and if my armors and EA dodge the smashing aspect with me smash defense, I also dodge the energy portion of the attack. Thus, I did not find I ever needed Glacial Armor until Sappers, Anti-Matter's Rad Nuons, and kinf of Synapse's Electrodes. GA is unneeded pre 30, and more realistically pre 40.
Fourth, I have no beef with Hasten. It's a very optional power as a Tank and I'm not persecuting you for taking it. But my point still stands: What powers did you absolutely have to take that forced you to drop Icicles and/or Boxing and Tough? I wanted Tough at 30 because most damage at that point in the game was still smash/lethal damage that got through. Energy wasn't a problem, Fire wasn't a problem, Neg energy wasn't a problem, Psy wasn't a problem. It was the few Smash/Lethal attacks that got through.
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...
Third, Energy is not prevalent in any respect. Pre 26(EA) you almost never see it, and I cannot recall any time pre 40 when I died from an energy attack. The reason is that the majority of energy attacks also have smashing damage components, and if my armors and EA dodge the smashing aspect with me smash defense, I also dodge the energy portion of the attack. Thus, I did not find I ever needed Glacial Armor until Sappers, Anti-Matter's Rad Nuons, and kinf of Synapse's Electrodes. GA is unneeded pre 30, and more realistically pre 40.
.....
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Wasn't that changed recently, so DEF vs a single attack that had multiple damage types, each damage type is now treated individually? Or am I way off?
Well wouldn't that be sort of weird? If an attack was half smashing damage and half energy damage, then with no energy defense you would take half damage. Isn't that just a modified for of resistance? Def is based on ToHits, so the attack either all hits or all misses, but I could be wrong.
Thats kinda the point I was trying to make.
Right now Icicles accounts for close to 50-65% of my total damage when soloing. That can get higher if I'm street fighting and get bigger groups.
Now before you got complaining about AoE slack. I'm an Ice/Fire, with permHasten. My main attacks are combustion, FSC, and Breath of Fire. They each to tons of damage, but they do take quite a bit of end, especially coupled with Icicles.
The good part is you can let yourself heal up a bit and you are still outputting damage.
I'm not at home so I can't double check, but I think Icicles is slotted 2 end red, 1 acc, and 3 damage.
For kicks last night after I was posting, I tried running without Icicles for the night. My end wasn't as bad, but it still wasn't good. As for damage, I did alot less without Icicles, because I still had to take those same breaks waiting for end, and I wasn't dealing any damage.
I'm gonna try getting some better data from Herostats over the next few days to try and base it upon. So I can give a better view of what I'm doing.
Really though, my opinion seems to be leaning towards the fact that for the end we pay for it, Icicles needs a tweak. Maybe not a end reduction, but maybe a secondary effect of some sort. An acc debuff, or maybe a slow as well if it will stack well with CE. Nothing huge, but every little poke with an Icicle would cause it perhaps so it adds up.
Because honestly, right now we have 3 or 4 powers in the set that people aren't taking on a regular basis. Permafrost(obviously), and Icicles, Hoarfrost, and Hibernate are all debatable. And usually these are being given up to take power pools that are seen as absolutely needed.
For now we'll keep debating it, and see if the Devs pay any attention.
Once again, why would you ever drop Icicles or Hoarfrost? AoE dmg aura plus a perma 40% more life! I don't understand what these "phantom powers" are that everyone needs to take, thus forcing them to drop Icicles and Hoarfrost. As far as I'm concerned there are only 2 powers in Ice not worth taking.
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Once again, why would you ever drop Icicles or Hoarfrost? AoE dmg aura plus a perma 40% more life! I don't understand what these "phantom powers" are that everyone needs to take, thus forcing them to drop Icicles and Hoarfrost. As far as I'm concerned there are only 2 powers in Ice not worth taking.
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I think you're giving Icicles way too much credit. Icicles is a power that comes with the set and that you take if there isn't anything better to take. It's not a defining power, nor a power that makes you go "wow! I gotta make an Ice tanker".
Icicles is an ok power at lower levels (By lower I mean before lvl 28 or so)... After that slowly looses it's charm. It is an ok power if you solo or are part of very small teams a lot (By small I mean 4 or less heroes). I saw your build and you're probably part of the solo/small team crowd.
Invincibility from Inv/ tankers, Burn from Fire Tankers, or Nova from Energy Blasters... Those are powers that makes you want to make an AT.
What I'm trying to say is that when it comes down to it, if I need to remove a power to be able to tank, that power is going to be Icicles. Perfect example is this I4's EA! To make that power be of any use you're going to need to add a few slots to it. In my case I'd take those slots from Icicles.
Another power is Wave. As it is nowadays, a few Ice Tankers take Wave to gain some psionic defense. If I was to take Wave, Icicles is the power that has to go.
So, what's to point to all this? What I said a few post ago: Icicles is not a defining/balancing power. Icicles is not worth wasting our time for now. Icicles is not the reason why the devs feel the need to hurt EA so bad... Why are we even talking about Icicles? Let's talk about what's really important here: Energy Absorbtion, and the fact that it's Saturday night. PARTY TIME!
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Once again, why would you ever drop Icicles or Hoarfrost? AoE dmg aura plus a perma 40% more life! I don't understand what these "phantom powers" are that everyone needs to take, thus forcing them to drop Icicles and Hoarfrost. As far as I'm concerned there are only 2 powers in Ice not worth taking.
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I think you're giving Icicles way too much credit. Icicles is a power that comes with the set and that you take if there isn't anything better to take. It's not a defining power, nor a power that makes you go "wow! I gotta make an Ice tanker".
Icicles is an ok power at lower levels (By lower I mean before lvl 28 or so)... After that slowly looses it's charm. It is an ok power if you solo or are part of very small teams a lot (By small I mean 4 or less heroes). I saw your build and you're probably part of the solo/small team crowd.
Invincibility from Inv/ tankers, Burn from Fire Tankers, or Nova from Energy Blasters... Those are powers that makes you want to make an AT.
What I'm trying to say is that when it comes down to it, if I need to remove a power to be able to tank, that power is going to be Icicles. Perfect example is this I4's EA! To make that power be of any use you're going to need to add a few slots to it. In my case I'd take those slots from Icicles.
Another power is Wave. As it is nowadays, a few Ice Tankers take Wave to gain some psionic defense. If I was to take Wave, Icicles is the power that has to go.
So, what's to point to all this? What I said a few post ago: Icicles is not a defining/balancing power. Icicles is not worth wasting our time for now. Icicles is not the reason why the devs feel the need to hurt EA so bad... Why are we even talking about Icicles? Let's talk about what's really important here: Energy Absorbtion, and the fact that it's Saturday night. PARTY TIME!
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Look buddy, I'm not trying to portray Icicles as a build defining power: it isn't. I wholeheartedly agree with you. Weave, in my opinion isn't necessary, and if it forces you to drop a power because you want Psy defense, then it's just another argument for added Psy defense for Tankers, not for Smash/Lethal Resist. My point, ONCE AGAIN, is that there are plenty of power slots in an Ice/Anything build to take Icicles. I never solo, but I normally play in 3-5 person groups. The larger the grp, the more I use Icicles for aggro, the smaller the more I use it for damage; it's very versatile.
And, ONCE AGAIN, where are all your slots going!? From my build you can see that I have EA, Icicles, FA, WI, Stamina, and 3 attacks 6 slotted. "What I'm trying to say is that when it comes down to it, if I need to remove a power to be able to tank, that power is going to be Icicles." I agree with your statement here, but my argument is that I believe there is no conceivable build where you have to actually DROP Icicles to take a power that will define your tanking ability. If anything I'd drop an EPP, but I know how many of you rabid Conserve Power fans there are out there, but that's just one EPP. My argument, one last time for all you people who continue to miss it, is that there is always room for Icicles, and there should be plenty of room to 6 slot Icicles, or at the very least 3 or 4 slot it. Always.
If anyone cares to debate my one argument, post your build and I will critique and fix it so that you may enjoy the quirky little fun power that is Icicles.
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Second, I took Wet Ice at 22 because I did not feel holds, mezzes, immobs, etc were very prevalent pre 20. I didn't die very often and I still only have one of the badges for being mezzed. Pre Wet Ice I was never overwrought with holds, and I honestly believe, from playing this game since beta just like you, that protection from holds aren't critical til post 20.
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When did you level up? I take it a while ago and not recently, right? Because all of that has changed. CoT in your Teens can Mez as can lower level Tsoo now. Wey Ice also now is your "What Caltrops?" power. Even Eidolons now can mez. As can Council Galaxy.
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Third, Energy is not prevalent in any respect. Pre 26(EA) you almost never see it, and I cannot recall any time pre 40 when I died from an energy attack. The reason is that the majority of energy attacks also have smashing damage components, and if my armors and EA dodge the smashing aspect with me smash defense, I also dodge the energy portion of the attack. Thus, I did not find I ever needed Glacial Armor until Sappers, Anti-Matter's Rad Nuons, and kinf of Synapse's Electrodes. GA is unneeded pre 30, and more realistically pre 40.
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Again changed. You Have Council Galaxy and Equinox throwing around energy and negative attacks that do not have smashing components. Also electric freaks now come into play earlier in the game then they used to. And a few other things.
Also note I said 15 levels earlier for each, that means GA closer to 30. By 44, if you've made it that long there's not much point to getting it really.
Other stuff being worked out for you.
Yes I have played an ice tanker to 50.... really its possible...
I have tried many many builds on test server, looking at getting aid self and slotting tough/weave to the max. But tanking an av is still very hard but can be done. Once my ice tanker hit 50 I rolled a stone tanker, and its a different world. Its so difficult to come back to my ice tanker because it seems more like a scrapper.
Blasters, defenders and controllers can get damage resistance via EPP and that is nice, but its sad they take less damage from an attack than I do.
An ideal change would be...
PermaFrost... make it like intergration.... *minor effects resistance... greater healing ability.....
*With health and this healing, we could out live most things*
Hibernate
*Once activated give insane taunt with a good range* (let a tanker taunt hamidon lol)
Icicles
*Do moderate damage, and change to ice damage. Also has a huge tohit debuff*
Chilling Embrace
*Change to 35 percent -recharge and moderate tohitt debuff*
I made an ice tanker because I never saw them, and I never wanted to be like everyone else. I am just hurt that we get ignored, and when I love doing missions, task forces, trials I have to worry about doing my job. If you were a team leader and making a respec trial and you had one spot left, do you pick an ice tanker or inv tanker. IMO it shouldn't matter, but as it stands most pick inv. *Real story... its becoming I want a defender who can heal, and I want a tanker who can handle damage. when people spam in broadcast*
Its not 50%...
I only made a few small mistakes that doesn't really change the outcome much, but I'll correct it for you and try to explain things better as I go.
Also I'm calculating for +0 SOs not +3s. It doesn't really matter which you do to determine a percentage. Mathematics states that if you reduce all elements of an equation by the same factor, then the outcome is the same when determining a percentage. So +0 or +3, doesn't matter. For me the +0 numbers are more handy.
I'm assuming the slotting of End/Acc/Dam/Dam/Dam/Dam for both Whirling Axe (WA) and Icicles.
With that you get 14.25 End per attack with WA, and a 14s recharge. And Icicles is at 0.75 EPS (End per second).
The first time through, I assigned a penatly of -5% Acc for both WA and Icicles (AoE powers are always less accurate then single target powers), and they each have an acc enh. So their base ACC is 70% (75% - 5%), and with the acc that goes to 93%.
However, after thinking since the initial calc, its probably closer to a 10% penalty then 5%. That means base ACC would be 65% and with the 1 ACC it becomes 86.5%
Since your saying you get in 3 hits from Icicles vs a Target for every attack by WA that means that implies its trying to hit about 3.5 times in the 14s period that WA is running (just an FYI not needed here).
Since WA is 86.5% accurate we can presume factor its 70 damage against that amount to figure out a maximum number of hits it would take to kill the target.
70 * 86.5% = 60.55
For purely WA we divide the mobs 300 health by 60.55 to determine the number of attacks needed, and we round up since a partial attack doesn't exist.
300 / 60.55 = 4.95 which becomes 5 attacks
Now the time to get off 5 WA attacks is the time it takes for 4 recharges (you're only measuring the gaps).
Totals are:
14 * 4 = 56 seconds
14.25 * 5 = 71.25 End
70 * 5 = 350 damage
And the final stats for the the strictly WA kill is:
71.25 / 56 = 1.27 EPS (End per second)
350 / 56 = 6.25 DPS (Damage per second)
*****
Now WA combined with Icicles... you specifically said each hit of Icicles was 13, so I'm going to stick with that number. You said that over the course of a recharge between WA attacks it hits 3 times. So:
13 * 3 = 39 damage
Total damage in 14s with WA + Icicles is:
70 + 39 = 109.
However the time to do this works differently because you have to wait the 14s after a WA attack to guarantee you do the additional 39 damage from WA. If you count only 2 recharges you fall short of 300 damage:
(3 * 70) + (2 * 39) = 210 + 78 = 288
You need to wait the additonal recharge lenght of WA to cover the rest of the damage with Icicles. So instead of timing only 2 recharges, you need to time 3.
Totals are:
14 * 3 = 42 seconds
(14.25 * 3) + (0.75 * 42) = 42.75 + 31.5 = 74.25 Endurance
(3 * 70) + (3 * 39) = 210 + 117 = 327 damage
And the final stats for the the WA + Icicles kill is:
74.25 / 42 = 1.77 EPS (End per second)
327 / 42 = 7.79 DPS (Damage per second)
*****
So taking the numbers time, EPS, and DPS ratings we can figure out just how much benefit running Icicles in tune with Whirling Axe is versus just running Whirling Axe:
56 - 42 = 14 seconds saved when running Icicles
14 / 56 = 25% of total time is saved when running Icicles
1.77 - 1.27 = 0.5 EPS higher cost when running Icicles
0.5 / 1.27 = 39.4% increase in End use when running Icicles
7.79 - 6.25 = 1.54 DPS increase when running Icicles
1.54 / 6.25 = 24.6% increase in damage when running Icicles
So for a 25% increase in damage you're spending 40% more Endurance. However there is a 25% reduction in time.
To me, to spend 40% more Endurance, to only do 25% more damage isn't worth it, no matter how much time I'm saving. And 14 seconds is not worth the cost of running Icicles. And so to me its not that important a power to have in the mix.
Yes you have to wait and throw one more WA attack, but you're saving Endurance to do it. And Endurance is the lifeblood of the game.
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Weave, in my opinion isn't necessary, and if it forces you to drop a power because you want Psy defense, then it's just another argument for added Psy defense for Tankers, not
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Pre I4 I'd agree... Post I4 I'm not so sure. Only time will tell.
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And, ONCE AGAIN, where are all your slots going!? From my build you can see that I have EA, Icicles, FA, WI, Stamina, and 3 attacks 6 slotted.
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I'm not in front of my PC, nor am I going to try to remember my current build and the one I want to have (Too much wine). As soon as I recover from tonight I'll post my current build, a post I4 build the way I think I'm going to be able to tank based on my testing so far, and the build that I actually would like to have... (BTW, you gotta love a party with good wine, good cheese, good movies and hot girls 
)
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"What I'm trying to say is that when it comes down to it, if I need to remove a power to be able to tank, that power is going to be Icicles."
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I agree with your statement here, but my argument is that I believe there is no conceivable build where you have to actually DROP Icicles to take a power that will define your tanking ability. If anything I'd drop an EPP, but I know how many of you rabid Conserve Power fans there are out there, but that's just one EPP.
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Just so you know I'm not into the whole CP EPP. In fact my build was/(is maybe?) going to be an Ice/Ice/Ice tanker. Let's not assume things here. If I wanted a cookie cutter I'd be playing an Inv/Em.
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My argument, one last time for all you people who continue to miss it, is that there is always room for Icicles, and there should be plenty of room to 6 slot Icicles, or at the very least 3 or 4 slot it. Always.
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I don't think we're arguing that, my only problem is that we're actually wasting energy in such an un-important.
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If anyone cares to debate my one argument, post your build and I will critique and fix it so that you may enjoy the quirky little fun power that is Icicles.
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I'll post my build... Probably monday. But just to show you why is that I feel that EA is just hurting our current build. About the whole "I'll fix it for you" thing... Let's just leave it there! I see your build and I go "What is he thinking?" But then again I don't like being part of small team when tanking. Not trying to be an [censored] with you, this is just my drunken way of saying: Please, let's don't thing we're mighty.
2 things Circ:
1) You do not have to wait for WA to recharge again to kill the enemy. According to your calcs, after 3 WA and the subsequent Icicle hits the enemy has taken 288 damage, living the enemy with 12 more life. That's just 1 hit from Icicles, and it does not take 14 seconds for Icicles to hit once. It take maybe 3 seconds. So you need to factor that in.
My second point is that you said you gain 25% damage for 40% more endurance, but 14 seconds isn't worth it; you need to stick to percentages. To me 25% more damage AND 25% time saved every single battle is worth 40% more endurance. But since you're numbers were wrong for Icicles you are actually saving more time and using less endurance.
So let's start where your mistake was:
(3 * 70) + (2 * 39) = 210 + 78 = 288
Totals are:
14*2 + 4(I'll be generous) = 32 seconds
(14.25 * 3) + (0.75 * 32) = 42.75 + 24 = 66.75 Endurance
(3 * 70) + (7 * 13) = 210 + 91 = 301 damage
And the final stats for the the WA + Icicles kill is:
66.75 / 32 = 2.09 EPS (End per second)
301 / 32 = 9.41 DPS (Damage per second)
*****
So taking the numbers time, EPS, and DPS ratings we can figure out just how much benefit running Icicles in tune with Whirling Axe is versus just running Whirling Axe:
56 - 32 = 24 seconds saved when running Icicles
24 / 56 = 42.8% of total time is saved when running Icicles
2.09 - 1.27 = 0.5 EPS higher cost when running Icicles
0.82 / 1.27 = 64.6% increase in End use when running Icicles
9.41 - 6.25 = 3.16 DPS increase when running Icicles
3.16 / 6.25 = 50.6% increase in damage when running Icicles
So 42.8% time saved and 50.6% more DPS for 64.6% more endurance. I have Stamina, Icicles' end drain can be remedied. I don't have any other AoE for more damage or some hack to make my game run faster.
Also, Circ, I built my Ice Tanker all post-I3. So all I know about tanking is post-I3, and I don't know, I don't remember excessive trouble with Energy or Neg or Holds.
Also LeMoi, I didn't mean to sound like an [censored]. If you like 8 person groups, more power to you, and yes, the Ice EPP rocks. Or atleast Block of Ice does.
> To make that power be of any use you're going to need
> to add a few slots to it. In my case I'd take those slots
> from Icicles.
What's sad is that I DID put six slots in EA - 3 for recharge reduction and 3 for energy drain. I liked the idea of pretty much sapping everybody around me in one shot, in case I lost control somehow (thanks to the ever-lovable changes to things like freezing rain, etc...) and things get away from me.
With this 'proposed' change, I'll have to develop perma-hasten (which my ice tanker didn't have/need before), and change all those slots in EA to defense only, in order to at least partially make up the defense deficit against those rotten quartz and the like. It won't, but I can dream.
So the net effect, as I see it, is a forced reliance on not one, but TWO power pools (fighting, speed) in order to get CLOSE to where I was before, while losing the awesome crowd control ability of enhanced energy drain.
Considering all the changes in taunt so that tankers wouldn't HAVE to rely on power pools to DO THEIR JOB, this seems to be backwards thinking - unless there are MANY pick-me-ups to the ice armor line to make up the difference.
Either that, or every time I get a team invite, I'll have to tell people I'm the 'lite' tanker, and can't handle the large quantities of +5 and up villains that other tankers seem to do (yes, I know I can't hurt or even arrest bad guys that high as an ice/ice, but I can still TANK them at least).
Dude, whether you hit 10 or 20 enemies your def caps out at 95%. So if you just have 2 +# Def Buff enhancements in it (I do 2 Def/2 Rchg/2 Enddrain) You can hit the 95% cap from 5 enemies, or close enough and your armors will do the rest.
bluefan, to be honest your numbers are overly optimistic. Yes, that's how it looks like you should be calculating, but I have a very good reason for calculating the case I did.
Icicles ticks faster than 1 hit every 4.5 seconds. From my observations, it ticks more like 1 tick every 2.5 seconds which means if you're hitting only 3 times in 14 seconds which means you're missing 2 or 3 times every 14 seconds, which means its accuract is more like 50-60%. That also means potentially you could get all the misses up front.
So realistically the case falls somewhere between your calculation (which is a highly optimistic best case) and mine which is the worst case.
Neither scenario though sells me in Icicles. If I've floored the accuracy of my opponent I don't care about time. I presented it for completeness, but I'm sorry that I didn't state that to me time is meaningless here. So for me its just that the damage output I get from Icicles never matches the Endurance I put int it. And for me that can't ever be a win.
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Dude, whether you hit 10 or 20 enemies your def caps out at 95%. So if you just have 2 +# Def Buff enhancements in it (I do 2 Def/2 Rchg/2 Enddrain) You can hit the 95% cap from 5 enemies, or close enough and your armors will do the rest.
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Actually, to be fair. If the opponent is the same level as you, just your standard armors (FA/WI/GA) will floor its Accuracy without Energy Absorption. On top of that, EA vs 1 mob will floor anything at +3 levels to you (more mobs needed for cold/fire attacks). Again both assuming no defense debuffs or acc buffs from or for the mobs.
The point you seem to be missing is that this doesn't affect the defense bonus (though this is enough as it is, thanks to all of the ways that defense can be debuffs and/or accuracy can be buffed versus the ways resistance can be debuff, which are damn few).
There's also the fact that the number of enemies Taunted by EA just got capped, and the number of enemies we can End drain (and thus control by lowering the number of attacks they can use) just got capped.
Then, add that with the fact that (for all purpose since Ice damage in PvE is quite rare and not everyone will be trying PvP), Ice is defense and not resistance, and it's easy to see why Ice Armor tankers are considered 'gimped' by most of the playerbase. I can't count the number of times I was dropped from a team or had an invite revoked once the leader found out HC was Ice. People know that Ice cannot handle the same sort of challenges that the other Tankers take for granted. All because we have zero resistances to Smashing/Lethal damage.
Hell, besides SR scrappers, we're the ONLY set that has one method of gaining S/L directly from a skill. Every other AT has two, since all of the blaster, defender and controller APPs grant access to a S/L resist power.
And I, for one, am really tired of playing second fiddle to any other tanker, of being the 'backup' because an Invulnerability, Fire or Stone tanker can handle the sort of enemies that people want to face without really breaking a sweat. Especially given the wide array of defensive options available versus resistance.
To Circ: Icicles hit's once every 2.5 seconds!? I was just throing out 3 hits per WA, that wasn't based on Icicles or testing or anything else! If Icicles indeed hits every 2.5 seconds then my numbers would be much higher! Like, 50-75% better, making Icicles even more appealing. I just love the power, it does so much damage over time as I'm herding and just sitting there with WA and Pendulum. I'd have to rework my numbers, something I don't want to do right now, to reflect this new data. And just from casual memory, Icicles hits around 5 out of 6 tries on +2 minions for me.
And to Archmedes: 2 things. 1) When did Geko say that the End Drain would only affect 5 enemies? I read that we would receive a Def buff from only 5, but we can only end drain 5 now? Hmmm. 2) I have never ever ever ever ever ever been rejected from a team because I was an Ice tanker. If anything I get ooos and ahhhs as I easily hold the attention of Krakens or what have you.
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And to Archmedes: 2 things. 1) When did Geko say that the End Drain would only affect 5 enemies? I read that we would receive a Def buff from only 5, but we can only end drain 5 now? Hmmm.
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Geko never said that. Circeus and Achimedes tested QA out on tht test server. Their Tankers only drained the END on the 5 targets they affected.
I have no Ice tank, but I'm against gimping the Ice tank, which is by far from what I understand, the weakest set, without something in return.
They need ta up the Defense on the few ice powers that don't come close to maxing the cap.
Maybe have the armors on their own kick off at LEAST a +85% defense to what they're supposed to block. Having S/L defense at a higher value (say about 150% when Wet Ice and FA are up) would be nice. Then you wouldn't have to totally stick with even cons without fear of getting your twig and berries stomped.
This'd mean you still need to use EA, but you're not screwed if you're not built to chain it or don't have enough baddies to siphon.
Basically, EA should still be able to floor defense on a single +4 boss. Otherwise, how the hell is an ice tanker supposed to keep a team safe at all?
"I'm flying free with my beautiful butterfly wings!" ~ Randy Marsh
These types of Tanker changes seem to be based on tanks that herd lots of baddies. That's a bad precedent to base a Powerset on IMO. Not everyone herds and, better yet, not everyone wants to. So what if Ice tank defense gets ungodly high? We have virtually no resistances to the most prevalent damage types in the game.
If this change is based on The Arena, I still think it's silly. The ability to accrue insane amounts of Defense in PvP is very highly unlikely. It's not like we can herd other players to get that kind of defense.