Strange, that is a pretty bad idea for a power, I'm sorry.
Anyways, Circ, my point still remains that you should always take your AoE tanker secondary power AND Icicles, as it really boosts your damage and battle rate for an endurance cost that I feel is quite reasonable.
Also, I think I could live with the End Drain and Taunt only affecting 5 enemies if I received 2-3 endurance per enemy I hit.
As to the small string of Bobcat comments, I've fought Bobcat 3 times, once when she was 3 levels above me, and twice when she was 2 levels above me. I had 5 slotted Tough and didnt die once. Sure, I came a bit close, but nothing worrisome.
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As to the small string of Bobcat comments, I've fought Bobcat 3 times, once when she was 3 levels above me, and twice when she was 2 levels above me. I had 5 slotted Tough and didnt die once. Sure, I came a bit close, but nothing worrisome.
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Not counting any other buffs, you had (20% + 5*4%=40%) s/l resistances, therefore reducing the amount of damage she was doing from her max hit (2052) down to 1231. Assuming perma-Hoarsfrost, that's surviveable.
But why should ice tankers have to go to Tough? Tough should be an option, not a requirement. This isn't a case of a min-maxer looking to squeeze every single advantage out of the game that they can. Without Tough, an Ice tanker just doesn't even come close to having the amount of surviveability any other Tanker has.
I don't want the other Tanker primaries dropped. I don't want them dragged down to our level, Tankers in general have had it bad for so long anyways.
Nor do I feel any of us are asking for a lot. I don't want resistances to everything in the game at higher base values than Invulnerability, or for Icicles to do more damage than Burn, or to have the same (or better) defense buff Stone gets versus Psionic.
Myself, I just want some s/l resistances. Enough that I can do my job versus monsters and archvillians, without having to have a defender strapped to my hip or having to give up two powers to get a power pool.
How is this so game-breaking? Why is it so hard for the developers to understand this? And why are they now putting a cap on EA, when we have to wait eight more levels for a power that only begins to narrow the gap between ourselves and the other Tanker primaries?
I do agree that EA doesnt need to add all that defense, but it should still affect all mobs in range. Give it a hard cap so that all mobs are hit with the status affects, but it grants a max of 90% defense or so. I also believe it should grant resists as well, not a lot but 3% per mob with a hard cap so it doesnt max resists with one ability. It is sensible since EA draws moisture from surrounding enemies and layers it on yourself, so it makes sense that the attacks lose potency going through the layers of frost.
Dirges
Meh.
As to all those old fire damage argument, I did the infernal mish tonight as the only tank, fighting lvl 49s, I was 46. I tanked about 50 of them, a nice blend of minions and lts, a few bosses, and of course Inf. I never dropped below half life. Too bad we had no damage base and my whole team died trying to destroy the altar. Always a sad ending....
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Meh.
As to all those old fire damage argument, I did the infernal mish tonight as the only tank, fighting lvl 49s, I was 46. I tanked about 50 of them, a nice blend of minions and lts, a few bosses, and of course Inf. I never dropped below half life. Too bad we had no damage base and my whole team died trying to destroy the altar. Always a sad ending....
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Question: Did you tank Infernal by himself? Or where there minions around still? (I guess the last one since you say your team couldn't take the Portal down). If that's the case then fire is not a problem, all you need is a few minions to fuel EA and you're set to go. Once you're going one-on-one against Infernal the pain begins, specially when he uses his fire only atacks. Any other tanker can stand in front of him all day long if they please (Or any other AV for that matter).
EA is also the reason why we're able to tank Nemesis and CoT's deamons. Once I4's EA goes live we're not going to be able to tank Nemesis as well as we can now (By that I mean that we're not going to want more than 4 lieutenants dieing at once)... CoT's Demons are going to be ok unless there is a Ruin Mage or two around.
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Meh.
As to all those old fire damage argument, I did the infernal mish tonight as the only tank, fighting lvl 49s, I was 46. I tanked about 50 of them, a nice blend of minions and lts, a few bosses, and of course Inf. I never dropped below half life. Too bad we had no damage base and my whole team died trying to destroy the altar. Always a sad ending....
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Two things. Again you have Tough. If Infernal used the axe, you're better off for it. And you wouldn't have been so well off had you not been standing inside of those 40 mobs kicking off EA no doubt. When only 5 are buffing you it'll be a different story and you'll be eating cold inner sanctum floor tiles.
With all those mobs and Tough you probably actually had enough Defense and Resistance to stand off against him. Try it on Test w/out Tough.
Guys, my post was about fire damage. F. I. R. E. Everyone here knows I have Tough, we've established that. We've established that Ice has no Smash/Lethal rec, that my opinions are somewhat skewed, etc etc. And Circ, I'm a bit ashamed, just a few posts ago you affirmed the fact that we can hit the def cap with ease from hitting 5 enemies, so 5 or 40, it doesn't really matter. My fact was that Fire is not a problem; that was one of the things brought up way back when, and I'm just making a segway back to it. The issues still are, and always will be: Smash/Lethal Res, Psy Def/Res, Hibernate, Icicles (for you guys atleast), and whatever else we feel like bickering about.
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Guys, my post was about fire damage. F. I. R. E. Everyone here knows I have Tough, we've established that. We've established that Ice has no Smash/Lethal rec, that my opinions are somewhat skewed, etc etc. And Circ, I'm a bit ashamed, just a few posts ago you affirmed the fact that we can hit the def cap with ease from hitting 5 enemies, so 5 or 40, it doesn't really matter. My fact was that Fire is not a problem; that was one of the things brought up way back when, and I'm just making a segway back to it. The issues still are, and always will be: Smash/Lethal Res, Psy Def/Res, Hibernate, Icicles (for you guys atleast), and whatever else we feel like bickering about.
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You're missing the point. (a) Infermals Axe does Lethal damage and if you're in melee range that's what he uses, and (b) he's an AV he has a higher base Accuracy than 85%. Not sure what it is to be honest, but my calcs show most AVs are 120% to 150% or more.
So I was merely stating why your survivabity was so well. So you're set to surive for an extended period in there. If you had only been taking buffs from 5 mobs you never would have floored Infernal's Accuracy. Getting buffs from 40 or more mobs which is very typical for that mission would certainly do it. you can do that on live. You can't on test.
So, again try it on test. And turn off Tough.
Not to mention that I clearly stated that the way to solve the gap is not Resistance. But hey, filter out whatever you like.
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This means that adding a flat Resistance is not a good choice. You need to add something that tapers off like Defense does when fighting higher level enemies. Or something entirely outside of the realm of either DEF or RES.
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Guys, my post was about fire damage. F. I. R. E. Everyone here knows I have Tough, we've established that. We've established that Ice has no Smash/Lethal rec, that my opinions are somewhat skewed, etc etc. And Circ, I'm a bit ashamed, just a few posts ago you affirmed the fact that we can hit the def cap with ease from hitting 5 enemies, so 5 or 40, it doesn't really matter. My fact was that Fire is not a problem; that was one of the things brought up way back when, and I'm just making a segway back to it. The issues still are, and always will be: Smash/Lethal Res, Psy Def/Res, Hibernate, Icicles (for you guys atleast), and whatever else we feel like bickering about.
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You're missing the point. (a) Infermals Axe does Lethal damage and if you're in melee range that's what he uses, and (b) he's an AV he has a higher base Accuracy than 85%. Not sure what it is to be honest, but my calcs show most AVs are 120% to 150% or more.
So I was merely stating why your survivabity was so well. So you're set to surive for an extended period in there. If you had only been taking buffs from 5 mobs you never would have floored Infernal's Accuracy. Getting buffs from 40 or more mobs which is very typical for that mission would certainly do it. you can do that on live. You can't on test.
So, again try it on test. And turn off Tough.
Not to mention that I clearly stated that the way to solve the gap is not Resistance. But hey, filter out whatever you like.
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Even with Tough running. Infernal uses Fire only atacks, too... If his Cleave doesn't one shoot you, Incinerate will.
And at the end, no matter how careful you are and how many times you ask your teammates a tanker is going to end up one-on-one agains most AV's.
I guess it all comes down to the fact that no matter how "powerful" EA is, Ice Tankers if anything are underpowered. So, why the hit to EA?
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The power is still quite massive, and probably still too powerful.
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LOL sorry, just dropping in late.....but did someone just say the words "too powerful" when talking about Ice Tankers? Man I feel for you frozen guys, truely. 
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Well, aparently both the ice tankers got together and managed to tank something, so the Devs felt it was time for a nerf.
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post of the year material....
(seriously)
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Quote:
As to the small string of Bobcat comments, I've fought Bobcat 3 times, once when she was 3 levels above me, and twice when she was 2 levels above me. I had 5 slotted Tough and didnt die once. Sure, I came a bit close, but nothing worrisome.
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Not counting any other buffs, you had (20% + 5*4%=40%) s/l resistances, therefore reducing the amount of damage she was doing from her max hit (2052) down to 1231. Assuming perma-Hoarsfrost, that's surviveable.
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Uh...yeah. Read my post again:
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Her first attack, 2052 damage (Eviscerate). One-shot death (mind you, this is with 5-SO slotted Tough going).
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I have 5-slotted tough just like Bluefan does. The 2052 damage I took was WITH this going (meaning approximately 3420 damage without Tough). I don't have Hoarfrost, but I do have 1940 HPs (Freedom Phalanx Medallion), so I can survive a lot of things. My problem isn't that she hit me so hard or that she killed me so easily (a +6 AV probably should be that difficult), it's that the Invuln tanker who was SIDEKICKED to me stood there and tanked her with little problem.
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Myself, I just want some s/l resistances. Enough that I can do my job versus monsters and archvillians, without having to have a defender strapped to my hip or having to give up two powers to get a power pool.
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I agree with this, that our main concerns are with tanking Monsters and AV's, and that we shouldn't require power pools or secondary characters to protect us. No, we shouldn't be able to solo a Monster by ourselves, but we should also be able to stand toe-to-toe. But we do need more then just S/L resistance.
We need SOMETHING to keep us alive in those fights. My Ice tank last night had the interesting experience of the Tina Macintyre Story Arc, and fought both Anti-Matter and Bobcat last night. First, let me note, I typically clean house with Invincible missions, need next to no healing, do use Tough and can heard a good room of mobs as desired. But these missions mentioned AV's, so I MUST set them back to heroic.
And at heroic, against Anti-matter, even level, I got one-shotted.
Dropped in on him and his friends, saw him, and charged. Forgot to hit Hoarfrost first, but did get 5 in the group for EA. Someday I'll learn what the debt is trying to teach me. Without Hoarfrost, poof, down. After a helpful rez, and people debuffing him to next tuesday, I could manage. He went down quickly, since you only have to get him to half health, I believe.
Next mission, Bobcat, even level, not even close to a problem. Why? Claws deal lethal damage, and Tough had me covered. So until things change, Nanoc will live in fear of AV's or Monsters who use anything other then S/L. At heroic... Which is anything but heroic, if you ask me.
I intially suggested adding resistance to EA. Now I don't even think that would help against an AV or Monster once everybody around him is dead. I'd love to see something other then resistance, to give us a different flavor. Damage debuff from chilling aura or another power? That'd work, and make teams really want us. But other then resistance, there isn't much that would fit the bill.
I'd like to see FA and GA add in resistance to their respective damage types, and I'd take them. Let EA do what it does, and I'd use it for large groups, or hearding.
I hope we have some help on the way. It'll be a few more weeks before any change here can help my Tanker on the live server.
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I'd love to see something other then resistance, to give us a different flavor. Damage debuff from chilling aura or another power? That'd work, and make teams really want us.
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Seems like that would be great for icicles. And it would make a big improvement to the tankiness of Ice Tankers while giving it even more of a controller/defender feel.
Enervating Field and Darkest Night debuff the enemies damage by around 30-35%, I think. If icicles debuffed its targets by ~15%, I think it would make a huge difference to our tanking ability without stepping on any other AT's toes. Heck, considering that Icicles requires a successfull hit, you could make the debuff even larger. This would also give us a little bit of help against Psi damage.
All it would need to be is enough to keep us from being one shotted. Just leave enough life for us to react when something hits us.
Then leave EA as able to grab defense from only 5 enemies, but make sure it agros and drains end from all in melee range.
Hmm, I wonder if maybe changing EA to buff resistance instead of defense could be the answer?
It seems like it would be a good solution on paper. Maybe give it a cap of 50% res to all but Psy with 6 slotted resistance buffs. Leave it with the 5 mob cap and same endurance debuff. This would help Ice tanks survive being one shotted, and make EA less redundent with the other armors in the set.
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The power is still quite massive, and probably still too powerful.
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LOL sorry, just dropping in late.....but did someone just say the words "too powerful" when talking about Ice Tankers? Man I feel for you frozen guys, truely.
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No kidding. Over the course of her time, Runhilde has definitely felt "tanky," "powerful," and even "pretty powerful." Has she ever felt "too powerful?" NO. Never. Ok, there was the one time when she went over to Atlas to give an SG-mate's level 2 alt some Inf and decided to see what a buildup and pendulum combo would do to a mob of level 2 Hellions, but that was about the only time she ever felt "too powerful."
The terms "too powerful" and "Ice tank" fit together about as well as "military" and "intelligence."
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I'd love to see something other then resistance, to give us a different flavor. Damage debuff from chilling aura or another power? That'd work, and make teams really want us.
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Seems like that would be great for icicles. And it would make a big improvement to the tankiness of Ice Tankers while giving it even more of a controller/defender feel.
Enervating Field and Darkest Night debuff the enemies damage by around 30-35%, I think. If icicles debuffed its targets by ~15%, I think it would make a huge difference to our tanking ability without stepping on any other AT's toes. Heck, considering that Icicles requires a successfull hit, you could make the debuff even larger. This would also give us a little bit of help against Psi damage.
All it would need to be is enough to keep us from being one shotted. Just leave enough life for us to react when something hits us.
Then leave EA as able to grab defense from only 5 enemies, but make sure it agros and drains end from all in melee range.
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You see! There is an idea! Replacing Hibernate with a power like Storm Summoning/Steamy Mist with a +Res(All -psionics), but make it not a "Location AoE", but a PBAoE Toggle like Chilling Embrace (With a way larger area, of course)
Ok, this is my idea:
Change permafrost so that is has a 75% chance to apply a ~3 second, mag 1 hold on enemies that make a successful melee attack on you. The hold duration is non-enhanceable.
For the most part, enemies will be missing you, so this won't affect the battle too much. Permafrost will only really come into play against enemies that have high accuracy/autohit or debuff your defense, which is where we have problems right now.
It also won't affect luts/bosses/AVs/Monsters, so it won't be over-powered. Give it a mag 2 hold and it can hit luts. That might still be fair. It will also help your controller/defender teammates stack holds on bosses/AVs/Monsters.
Do this and add psi defense to GA and EA. Let EA drain def from only 5 enemies, but still agro and drain end from all melee baddies and I think we'd have a pretty effective set. AVs would still get the occasional 1-shot, but we would be masters of herding minions/luts. That at least gives us a role, even if it's not as an AV tank.
Add a damage debuff to icicles and I think we'd be able to play in the big leagues with Inv tankers.
Give hibernate an agro aura and make it shut down automatically when your HP is full. That way, you can still be doing your job as a tanker for the team, but you're not able to sit there indefinitely while indestructible.
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It also won't affect luts/bosses/AVs/Monsters, so it won't be over-powered. Give it a mag 2 hold and it can hit luts. That might still be fair. It will also help your controller/defender teammates stack holds on bosses/AVs/Monsters.
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That's just scary... so you want to "hold" minions who hit us, and have a power that won't help a lick against the AV's and Monsters? Wow, I think my own wife would drop me out of our duo.
I like the idea that EA would do Resistance instead of Defense. We already have toggles for defense, why not a click for Resistance? I'd drop Kick/Tough, pick up FA/GA, and call my guy ready to rock.
Man, that next "patch" to the training room is going to be interesting.
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It also won't affect luts/bosses/AVs/Monsters, so it won't be over-powered. Give it a mag 2 hold and it can hit luts. That might still be fair. It will also help your controller/defender teammates stack holds on bosses/AVs/Monsters.
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That's just scary... so you want to "hold" minions who hit us, and have a power that won't help a lick against the AV's and Monsters? Wow, I think my own wife would drop me out of our duo.
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Ice Tanks have trouble with single tough bosses/AVs as well as groups of minions/luts with acc buffs or defense debuffs.
My idea for a low mag hold in permafrost was to help alleviate one of our problem areas: minions with buffs/debuffs.
I agree that something would still need to be done to help us fight AVs.
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I like the idea that EA would do Resistance instead of Defense. We already have toggles for defense, why not a click for Resistance?
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If you change EA from DEF to RES things get even more out of whack then they are now between the two sets. When you say it it sounds like a good idea. When you do the math it just looks worse. And it doesn't solve the problem of Invuln getting better both with more mobs and higher level mobs.
I haven't gone to Test any of the EA changes (it IS on Test now, correct?)...but I have tested what hitting 5 minions with EA will do.
While wearing FA and WI, I went to fight some wolves. I used EA on 5 of them, then grabbed 2 more groups (of +2 minions). They then decided my defense meant nothing to them, and continued to attempt a rather brutal trouncing. I then used EA again (just before the first wore off) on about 15 wolves. I wasn't nigh-invincible, but I could laugh at any hits that got through. I believe I never went under 80% HP...so I was still getting hit, but nowhere near as often as before.
EA is not too powerful - I don't think it ever will be at it's current setting. Waiting until lvl 26 to be brought to something near the ability of other tanks if painful enough. EA saves the set in my mind. I'm still not as good a tanker as other sets, but reducing EA to hitting 5 is ludicrous.
With EA I was able to tank infernal with even con minions. With only hitting 5 I would have been dead more than alive. I had, roughly, 21 minions w/ 4 lt's and infernal in my EA range (right next to the portal). When I used EA i still recieved damage, but I actually came to par with other tanks I have watched Tank along with me...that were lower levels than me.
I have 3 defense buffs in EA, 3 in WI, 3 in FA. Only when using EA on 10 or more enemies , do I come near the tanking ability of other sets. I have tried tanking +3 mobs before. The only reason I can survive is because of EA. They still hit me, mobs somehow always seem to hit me no matter how many I hit with EA. Dropping the hit to 5 would only solidify Ice tankers as the weakest of the Tank sets.
If you want to drop EA's hit to 5: Give it s/l resistances on top of defense, give it a slightly shorter recharge, and let it drain/slow all enemies in it's proximity.
While were on the subject of how much Ice Tanks are the seemingly most useless set, how about making Icicles auto-hit or some other helpful aspect.
Us 30 ice tanks would really appreciate it. And we'd also appreciate not hearing "OMG AN ICE TANK!!!!" Like we're some rare contracted disease. I've been kicked off teams before for simply being Ice/Ice. Yes, we're definately overpowered. I've only seen 2 lvl 50 Ice tanks. TWO!!
Glenjimo Hasaki - lvl 48 Ice/Ice Tanker on Guardian.
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If you change EA from DEF to RES things get even more out of whack then they are now between the two sets. When you say it it sounds like a good idea. When you do the math it just looks worse. And it doesn't solve the problem of Invuln getting better both with more mobs and higher level mobs.
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Are we assuming defensive numbers stay the same for FA/GA? And what kind of Resistance boost? I'm not saying Resistance instead of Defense in EA is the best way, it's just a different way to look at the issue. If you figure our defense with FA/GA doesn't drop a Monsters To-Hit down to 5%, but we added around 30 to 40% resistance, we'd survive an Alpha-strike, and be on better footing.
I really like the Damage Debuff idea, though I suppose since I don't use Icicles I'm not excited to see it added to that. Especially since Icicles isn't autohit, so I can't trust it to work on +2 Monsters and save my life. Chiling Aura is autohit, and would become a set defining power very early, helping get to level 26 EA. This I like. 
Okay, its like this...
Lets say the defense on primary armors (FA/GA) were capped at 30%, and your secondary armor (WI) were left at around 20%, and Chilling Embrace still offered its 25% Recharge rate reduction.
And then lets say we wholesale switched EA from DEF to RES, keeping the buff the same.
Under this scenario, from 1 to 4 mobs from +0 to +6 level mobs, Invuln wins through every comparison.
At exactly 5 mobs, Ice is marginally ahead, but Invuln still gains and eventually exceeds Ice at +5/+6 level mobs.
And from 6 to 10 mobs Invuln again takes the lead because Ice simply doesn't get any better at that point (whether the 5 mob cap is in place for EA or not).
I don't at all mind that EA only gives defense for the first 5 mobs, but the loss of taunt and endurance drain seem odd.
I'd love to see EA protect vs Psi, but there's one thing I'd like more:
Change Permafrost (or add a new power to the set) which caps our maximum damage taken per hit at 50% of our max HPs.
No more one-shot kills.
--Mr. Strange